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Message no. 1
From: Tomasz Kubacki <josefs@****.POLBOX.PL>
Subject: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 16:51:48 PST
Hoi

I'm fast learning kilos of rules in shadowrun.And here is my first ....(i=
trust
that is a good word )...point.Good physical adept (on 3 grade) is better=
than best Cybermutant.
pa pa
bye
Message no. 2
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:58:34 -0800
>I'm fast learning kilos of rules in shadowrun.And here is my first ....(i
>trust
>that is a good word )...point.Good physical adept (on 3 grade) is better
>than best Cybermutant.

Um... No comment! Please don't get another Cyber vs. Magic debate going!
Shouldn't there be something about this in like.. part 3 of the FAQ? Hey,
Bull, I think this guy's new, if I'm not mistaken.

-Skye-with-more-useless-posts
Message no. 3
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:11:44 EST
Skye said,
>Um... No comment! Please don't get another Cyber vs. Magic debate
>going!
>Shouldn't there be something about this in like.. part 3 of the FAQ?
>Hey,
>Bull, I think this guy's new, if I'm not mistaken.
>
------
Well, another touchy subject. Let's see, all of the subjects right now
that people don't like to see right now, multiply by the number of
people on here, uhhhh, hold on, I'm not good at math, lessee, carry the
two, In 4 months, Nobody will say anything because they turn into a large
debate :^)
I wanna see, and contribute to this.
Ah, ah, ah, we caught Bull sleeping on the job.


Gweedo the Killer Pimp strikes again!
Message no. 4
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:14:51 EST
>-Skye-with-more-useless-posts
----
Sorry about replying again but oh well,

No post is really useless (Except maybe a couple from Rip Claw), they're
point is just harder to grasp.


Gweedo the Killer Pimp strikes again!
Message no. 5
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:28:36 -0500
At 04:51 PM 3/15/97 PST, Tomasz Kubacki wrote these timeless words:
>Hoi
>
>I'm fast learning kilos of rules in shadowrun.And here is my first ....(i
trust
>that is a good word )...point.Good physical adept (on 3 grade) is better
than best Cybermutant.
> pa pa
> bye
>
Hi there... I think you're new, so...

Hi! Welcome to the list! Glad to have you aboard! Hope ya like
mail...:]:]:]

Now, for you're comment... Be careful with those types... In general,
Phys-Ads and Cybermonsters are mostly balanced... Cybers can start more
powerful, and phys-ads develop more slowly, but can usually end up more
powerful. But it's not really an issue of power. It's all in the playing
styles of a particular player.

This is a horse trhat's been beaten to death, though... So hopefully it
won't hang around too long, but... It probably will, as all overly
discussed topics are wont to do...

Bull
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You know, I think I had a dream that I'd go out like
this, only I was wearing a dress."
-Mighty max
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:00:39 +0100
Tomasz Kubacki said on 16:51/15 Mar 97...

> I'm fast learning kilos of rules in shadowrun.And here is my first
> ....(i trust that is a good word )...point.Good physical adept (on 3
> grade) is better than best Cybermutant.

Ouch! :) The cyberware vs. magic debate has three things in common with
the operating systems debate:

1) It has come up numerous times before
2) Each time it has come up a draw
3) Regulars are touchy when it comes to this subject :)

The bottom line is that, generally, a starting street sam is more powerful
than a starting physad, but with some Karma and nuyen applied to both,
they end up more or less even.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I am my own parasite.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Version 3.1:
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Message no. 7
From: Tomasz Kubacki <josefs@****.POLBOX.PL>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:47:15 PST
Hi
I think it was a misunderstood. I'm not saying that magic or cybertechnol=
ogy is better, but the phs-adept is much more powerfully
than a shadowruner with a lot of cyberware.
thanks for read this
J23TOM
Message no. 8
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:32:29 -0500
> Hi
> I think it was a misunderstood. I'm not saying that magic or cybertechnology is
better, but the phs-adept is much more powerfully
> than a shadowruner with a lot of cyberware.
> thanks for read this
> J23TOM

Again, that is a matter of opinion. Theoretically, with alot of karma
and anchored spells, a phys adept will be faster than a chromed street
sam. Practically, how often does than happen? Takes alot of karma..

Starting out, a sam is faster, and probably more dangerous, except in
areas like armed and unarmed combat, projectal weapons, or stealth. Phy
adepts usually can be much better at those. But in a fire fight, a sam
will usually be better (ie SmGun2, tac comp, lots of sensors, wired 3,
etc.), especially at low levels.

Phy adepts usually handle magic better. They can fight spirits
hand-to-hand (Killing hands) or with weapon foci. Their high essence
makes them much easier and effective to heal by the group magic slinger.
They even can get magic shielding (at a rediculously high cost, I must
add)

Metal detectors also like phy adepts much better. Phy adepts are hard to
detect even from astral perception. Takes a rather through scan of their
aura...difficulty caused from how their magic is grounded into their body.

In the end, as Gurth said, it's a toss up. Even more so than the
difference in game mechanics, which in my opinion shouldn't matter at all,
it represents a big diffence in how the characters will be played, ie
since a phy adept can keep up with the speed of a street sam, he won't
try. Even a sam can't dodge a 7.62 mm bullet that got lobbed at them from
2k away.

So in the end, it comes down to what you want to play....
Message no. 9
From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:50:37 -0600
>I think it was a misunderstood. I'm not saying that magic or
>cybertechnology is better, but the phs-adept is much more powerfully
>than a shadowruner with a lot of cyberware.

I apologize for jumping into this dead horse (I'm not even hungry),
but... I'm wondering just who would run a game in which becoming
a Grade 3 initiate is treated so casually?

And, I'm willing to bet that that physad he's talking about has
never suffered magick loss from wounds, and that the cyberguy
he's talking about doesn't have the 46-90 Karma that it cost for
initiation to have been spent on skills... Magick burns Karma,
chummers, we all know that.

When all's said and done, they tend to balance out, except in
the Tir.

Gossamer
Message no. 10
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 02:29:01 EST
On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:47:15 PST Tomasz Kubacki <josefs@****.POLBOX.PL>
writes:
>Hi
>I think it was a misunderstood. I'm not saying that magic or
cybertechnology is better, but the
>phs-adept is much more powerfully than a shadowruner with a lot of
cyberware.

No, you were PERFECTLY understood.

It's just that there have been heated ( and conclusionless) "discussions"
about the relative strength and "betterness" of a physad versus a Street
Sam.

In the end, they went nowhere.

Suffice it to say that Physads and Street Sams are DIFFERENT, each with
thier own strengths and weaknesses.

~Tim (who likes both)
Message no. 11
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:52:00 -0500
In reference to the whole cyber VS magick debate, I think gamers should
remember that when you are creating a character, the important thing is
to come up with a solid CONCEPT first. One of my old gamers [a power
gamer in denial] wwhen he first started playing asked me which character
type was better, which would give him more of an edge. I patiently
explained to him that it all depended on how he constructed the
character; the kind of background he gave it. All of the archetypes have
their strengths and weaknesses, and he should choose something that he
could relate to to play. He listened patiently to my long diatribe, then
asked again, '...so, what's the best character to play?'<sigh>.
If you really compare to archetypes, like the Physad and the Street
Ronin [or Sam, if you prefer], there are several points to look at. The
Street Sam has the advantage of having much more bioware and cyberware
implanted into his body, without detracting from any of his other
abilities; actually enhancing them. He is limited by the avaliability of
the 'ware, and the amount of money he has to spend. In the short term,
he can be very tough. The Physad has a set number of Magick Points to
spend on abilities (6). And some equivalent abilites that a street sam
can acquire cost more for the Physad, making it dificult [but NOT
impossible] for the Physad to compete on PURELY a power level. HOWEVER,
the Physad has avaliable the oportunity to initiate, opening up a whole
new realm of powers. And there are a few Physad abilities [like Astral
Perception, which I think is very useful], that a Street Sam won't be
able to attain. The Physad has a higher growth curve than a street
sam[compare the physad's parabolic to a street sam's linear growth. This
I think even takes into account the possibility that the Street Sam will
be able to up grade his 'ware in the future[ you can only stuff so much
metal into the meat before you get a munchie Robo- chop character, who
by then should go the way of the cyber zombie NPC]. Physads' can get
cyberware, but the trade off is usually not worth it, unless thought out
VERY carefully [munchie characters not included].
So, what have we learned from this little discourse [not a hell of a
lot, I know:-]? Basically, just design out a character BEFORE you decide
if haing or not having magick will give you an edge. To paraphrase
[probably very inaccurately] Doc Savage [ whom I believe was the
inspiration for the Shadowrun character, Dr. Richard Raven, created by
Stackpole] '... a man is only as good as his mind. An over reliance on
weapons [I include magick here} can weaken him, if he finds himself
without those weapons. His most powerful tool is his brain.


Kohl, the Physad Ork Gunslinger
Message no. 12
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber vs Magic
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:15:42 EST
On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:47:15 PST Tomasz Kubacki <josefs@****.POLBOX.PL>
writes:
>Hi
>I think it was a misunderstood. I'm not saying that magic or
>cybertechnol=
>ogy is better, but the phs-adept is much more powerfully
>than a shadowruner with a lot of cyberware.
> thanks for read this
> J23TOM
>
Explain. Define 'powerful'. Then explain how you made this comparison.
Else, this is just going to continue around in circles.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Further Reading

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