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Message no. 1
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:58:30 -0700
Ok, question for all you guru's out there. In preparation for an SR
campaign, I've been making PC's and running little scenarios so I can get
accustomed to the rules and such.

Question: If a troll who, has Thermographic Vision naturally, decides to
get Cyber-eyes with magnification, does he lose the Thermographic vision??


Thanks
MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365
May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 2
From: "Logan Graves <Fenris>" <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:37:59 -0500
In our last episode, Hernandez wrote:
>
> Question: If a troll who, has Thermographic Vision naturally, decides
> to get Cyber-eyes with magnification, does he lose the Thermographic
> vision??

No, not unless he *pays* for the additional option. (Rita had to
purchase "low-lite" with her cybereyes, since removal of her natural
ones also away took her "heavily endowed rod structures" ;-)

--Fenris (beat'cha that time, "Demon Paul"!)
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Relax. This city has been here for a hundred years.
How much damage can a few 'runners do in only eight
hours? Here, have another donut.
(>) --Officer Axly, Lone Star Security Services
Message no. 3
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:28:18 -0500
At 13-Nov-97 wrote Hernandez:

>Ok, question for all you guru's out there. In preparation for an SR
>campaign, I've been making PC's and running little scenarios so I can get
>accustomed to the rules and such.

>Question: If a troll who, has Thermographic Vision naturally, decides to
>get Cyber-eyes with magnification, does he lose the Thermographic vision??


Yes, since the natural eyeballs are replaced with the cyberware.
He can get thermagraphic in cyber but these are not so good as the natural
version he has in the first place.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #50:

My main computers will have their own special operating system
that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
Macintosh powerbooks.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:49:21 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-13 22:37:43 EST, hernandez@********.COM writes:

> Question: If a troll who, has Thermographic Vision naturally, decides to
> get Cyber-eyes with magnification, does he lose the Thermographic vision??
>
In my games, yes, as the natural eyes are being pulled out. If the troll
simply gets the Retinal Modifications, then the natural Thermographic is not
lost.

-K
Message no. 5
From: Jeremy Reaban <jer@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:01:15 -0600
In the case of vision, yes, After all, they are having their natural eyes
plucked out, along with all the special abilities built into it naturally*.


But in some cases, notably (er only?) cyberarms and Trolls, there's nothing
lost (much). In normal cases, cyberarm strength starts at 3 (then you pay
for bonuses). But, for a Troll, cyberarm strength starts out at 8 (avg. for
a troll). You can extend this to Orks & Dwarves if you want, having their
cyber start out at their avg. value (5) - I do.

So, sometimes natural abilites don't get removed by cyber gizmos. It
depends.

* If a Human got an eye transplant - original or cloned - from an Elf or
Ork, will the Human now have Low Light vision? Interesting thought.

----------
> From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
> To:
> Subject: Cyberware and Natural abilities
> Date: Thursday, November 13, 1997 7:58 PM
<snip>
>: If a troll who, has Thermographic Vision naturally, decides to
> get Cyber-eyes with magnification, does he lose the Thermographic
vision??
<snip>
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:40:32 +0100
Hernandez said on 18:58/13 Nov 97...

> Question: If a troll who, has Thermographic Vision naturally, decides to
> get Cyber-eyes with magnification, does he lose the Thermographic vision??

If you take cybereyes, yes. If you take the thermographic option but no
replacement eyes, then I'd say the troll has both natural and cybernetic
thermographic vision.

It's really very simple: since trolls' _eyes_ are what makes them see in
the IR part of the spectrum, removing those eyes also removes their
natural thermographic vision.

Although it costs more Essence than a set of eyes with a few options, IMHO
it's better to get low-light (or thermographic) and flare compensation
installed in the natural eye for a metahuman character.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what if we're making a scene now?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 7
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:33:04 -0500
> From: Jeremy Reaban <jer@******.COM>
> Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 1:01 AM

<Snip of good arguments and logical solutions>

> * If a Human got an eye transplant - original or cloned - from an Elf or
> Ork, will the Human now have Low Light vision? Interesting thought.

IMO, No. Why not? Because not only do the eyes have to perceive in a
special way to see thermo naturally, the brain has to be able to interpret
the extra data. Thus, IMO, the eyes wouldn't be enough. Your brain would
have to be altered as well. And I wouldn't allow that in my campaign,
because it's too weird ;) (I can just see it now: some killer who is
stealing metahumans' eyes so he can sell them to a cyberdoc who then
implants them in humans for the best vision enhancements available.)

Ick.

Justin :)
Message no. 8
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:46:43 -0500
On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:58:30 -0700 Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
writes:

>Question: If a troll who, has Thermographic Vision naturally, decides
>to
>get Cyber-eyes with magnification, does he lose the Thermographic
>vision??


If he gets cybereyes, yes. If he just gets it as a modification to his
already existent eyes, no.


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 9
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:47:49 +0000
And verily, did Jeremy Reaban hastily scribble thusly...

A rather long e-mail, with the message he was replying to tagged onto the
end!

READ THE FAQ! LEARN TO EDIT!!

>*sigh*<

Put your responces AFTER the thing you're responding to!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 10
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:36:46 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-14 07:49:29 EST, vanyel@*******.NET writes:

> IMO, No. Why not? Because not only do the eyes have to perceive in a
> special way to see thermo naturally, the brain has to be able to interpret
> the extra data. Thus, IMO, the eyes wouldn't be enough. Your brain would
> have to be altered as well. And I wouldn't allow that in my campaign,
> because it's too weird ;) (I can just see it now: some killer who is
> stealing metahumans' eyes so he can sell them to a cyberdoc who then
> implants them in humans for the best vision enhancements available.)
>
> Ick.
>
> Justin :)
>
Actually Justin, the doc could easily add a display link to the individual's
implants (don't forget, by 58' Alphaware is as cheap as standard) and the Low
Light benefits could be gained.

On a parallel subject, I know of someone who, long time ago, cloned lots of
parts for selling to others. His objective wasn't to make money, you see, he
was cloning parts using his own tissues. He was out to get ritual links to
as many unsuspecting "useful" victims as possible.

Think of Ritual Clairvoyance (My Clonal Parts Only) and a Control
Actions/Thoughts spell and the havoc once could wreak...

-K
Message no. 11
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:05:10 -0700
From: Gurth
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities



>Although it costs more Essence than a set of eyes with a few options, IMHO
>it's better to get low-light (or thermographic) and flare compensation
>installed in the natural eye for a metahuman character.


So how do you get them installed in the "natural" eye?? Sorry, but ya lost
me. Maybe you mean get cyber-eyes w/low-light and flare comp?

MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365
May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 12
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:06:13 -0500
At 14-Nov-97 wrote J. Keith Henry:


>>
>Actually Justin, the doc could easily add a display link to the individual's
>implants (don't forget, by 58' Alphaware is as cheap as standard)

My book says that the availability is the same as the standart not the price.
Alpha still cost a fortune.


--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #50:

My main computers will have their own special operating system
that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
Macintosh powerbooks.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:36:04 -0600
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Hernandez wrote:

> From: Gurth
> Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
>
>
>
> >Although it costs more Essence than a set of eyes with a few options, IMHO
> >it's better to get low-light (or thermographic) and flare compensation
> >installed in the natural eye for a metahuman character.
>
>
> So how do you get them installed in the "natural" eye?? Sorry, but ya lost
> me. Maybe you mean get cyber-eyes w/low-light and flare comp?
>

If you read the section on cybereyes in the BBB you will findout
there are 2 was you get cyber-enhancements in an eye. First is to get a
cyber replacement eye, which replaces your normal eye, and also comes able
to support .5 essence of other features at no additional essence cost. And
then there is the modifaction of the normal eye, adding componets to the
"meat" eye to make it able to react to thermo signatures, or lower light,
etc.

Czar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5648
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality!? Is that some new game?"
-MDF
"I'll need morphine, lots of it, and a pistol."
-The English Patient
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:50:17 +0100
Hernandez said on 19:05/14 Nov 97...

> >Although it costs more Essence than a set of eyes with a few options, IMHO
> >it's better to get low-light (or thermographic) and flare compensation
> >installed in the natural eye for a metahuman character.
>
> So how do you get them installed in the "natural" eye?? Sorry, but ya lost
> me. Maybe you mean get cyber-eyes w/low-light and flare comp?

No, there are two ways in which you can install low-light (or thermo) in
SR: the first is to get cybereyes and put the low-light into those. This
is essentially "free" in that you pay .2 Essence for the eyes and can then
stash up to .5 Essence worth of other visual cyberware into the eyes.

The alternative is to install low-light directly into the natural eyes.
This costs .2 Essence for the low-light (and .2 extra if you want
thermographic as well), and essentially modifies the retina so it works in
low light conditions as well as normal light. The advantage here is that
you retain your original vision, whereas with cybereyes you don't.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what if we're making a scene now?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 15
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:31:00 GMT
on 13.11.97 hernandez@********.COM wrote:
h> Ok, question for all you guru's out there. In preparation for an SR
h> campaign, I've been making PC's and running little scenarios so I can get
h> accustomed to the rules and such.
h>
h> Question: If a troll who, has Thermographic Vision naturally, decides to
h> get Cyber-eyes with magnification, does he lose the Thermographic vision??

Yup! The thermo comes from the special 'features' in his eyes, so if he
rips 'em out, it's gone. Of course, he can get zoom as retina modification
(if my memory serves me right)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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Message no. 16
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:46:55 -0700
OK, I see the part where it says that you can get upto .5 Essence Cost
enhancements on the cyber-eyes.

But then it goes onto Retinal modification. I always assumed that this was
in reference to getting your retinal pattern changed. But I guess, as you
and Gurth are saying, that this also includes getting your "meat" eyes
changed.

Thanks for the help guys 'preciate it.

MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365
May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:26:18 +0100
Hernandez said on 19:46/15 Nov 97...

> OK, I see the part where it says that you can get upto .5 Essence Cost
> enhancements on the cyber-eyes.
>
> But then it goes onto Retinal modification. I always assumed that this was
> in reference to getting your retinal pattern changed.

That's retinal _duplication_, which is used to give you a set of false
retinal patterns, in order to fool eye scanners for a variety of reasons.

The term retinal modification is used on page 247, under the header
"Eyes". From the text, it can be deduced that things like low-light can be
implanted into normal eyes, with each system costing Essence, rather than
filling up some free space in artificial eyes.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what if we're making a scene now?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 18
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:14:19 -0600
Hernandez wrote:

> >Although it costs more Essence than a set of eyes with a few options, =
IMHO
> >it's better to get low-light (or thermographic) and flare compensation
> >installed in the natural eye for a metahuman character.
>
>
> So how do you get them installed in the "natural" eye?? Sorry, but ya =
lost
> me. Maybe you mean get cyber-eyes w/low-light and flare comp?
>
Nope. You can can get the low-light and thermo options installed in a nat=
ural eye.
Light/heat sensitive chips are installed to allow the eye to process the =
signal. I'm
not sure of the EXACT biology of it (I'm a political analyst/historian, =
NOT a doctor), but
from what I understand according to the book (and medically inclined frie=
nds) that is how
it works.

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'
Message no. 19
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyberware and Natural abilities
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:34:39 +1000
>Ok, question for all you guru's out there. In preparation for an SR
>campaign, I've been making PC's and running little scenarios so I can get
>accustomed to the rules and such.
>
>Question: If a troll who, has Thermographic Vision naturally, decides to
>get Cyber-eyes with magnification, does he lose the Thermographic vision??


First, sorry for replying to a three day old message, but I went away for
the weekend.

Second, to answer the question. I rule that if a metahuman with enhanced
vision wants to retain their vision after getting cybereyes installed, they
have to pay an extra thousand nuyen. It doesn't cost an extra essence, and
they still count it as 'natural' for the benefits of vision bonuses.

NightRain.

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: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
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