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Message no. 1
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 10:54:50 +0200
I was reading the section on sports in the Sprawl Survival Guide, and came
across the very odd comment that most teams find "the cost of top-quality
implants is still prohibitive." Given the amount of money that goes around
in professional sports, I can't really imagine top players without cyber-
or bioware... I mean, just browsing around a bit at, for example,
http://www.footballtransfers.co.uk/records/index.asp and doing some quick
calculations on the actual cost of implants in SR leads me to the
conclusion that there should be money to spare for cybering every player
in top teams to some degree or other, and at least the more valuable
players in lesser teams that play in the big leagues.

The SSG says that giving players a "top of the line set of wired reflexes"
costs about the same as hiring a good player for a year; probably true,
but if nobody has much cyberware, why would you give a single player wired
reflexes-3 betaware? It'd be much better to spread that money around and
enhance all your key players a bit, than make one star player superfast/
strong/agile -- to quote Johan Cruyff (might be appropriate on this kind
of topic :) you don't need to be the fastest player on the field, you just
need to be faster than the guy coming after you...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 2
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 10:38:00 +0100
In message <200405161054.50256.gurth@******.nl>, Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
writes
<snip>

Interesting...

I've not got SSG, but assumed that the sports section was going to be
pretty much a rewrite of previous materials - especially Shadowbeat.

Shadowbeat covers it by sport (and only covers cyber since Bioware
didn't exist then, those were the days..).

Baseball - majors allow up to 3 essence worth of cyberware. Japanese
teams used it earlier which made up the gap to NA players. Players play
in the minors without mods then they're about to move they get some
implants - usually "wired reflexes and muscle implants".

Specific quote - "Most players and their agents spend more time on mods
than salary"

Basketball - the implication is that *every* player in the NABA has
either level 1 WR or level 2 boosted (the maximum allowed by the
league), plus smartball mods. "Unlimited muscle and sensory mods are
allowed"... The cost of the cyber allowed in basketball is low and I
don't see a reason that a pro player wouldn't have the maximum.

Football (the American variety, natch) - no limits on any cyber.
"Typical mods run to boosted or wired reflexes, subdermal armor, muscle
implants, boosters for natural bone and tendon..." No limits on cyber
use AT ALL.

Very little mention of (proper!) football, after all, Shadowbeat was
written in 1992 (my god, I just realised that's 12 years ago) before USA
94 when the yanks finally realised that everyone else in the world plays
different sports to them :)

Even aside from the comments there you only have to look at the costs of
legal cyber and compare to the money in sport. WR3 is illegal and you
can't get a permit for it at all, meaning the maximum available is 2,
even at alpha grade that only runs to 330,000 nuyen.

Comparing that to salaries in sport nowadays (assuming that USD=nuyen) -
the NFL salary cap (for this year) is about $80m. I don't think there
would be a cap in the 2060s, but even if there were then body mods for
most positions would still be viable.

From what I know, NFL players earn less (basic salary) than their
counterparts in the NBA and MLB (generally), making cyber in those games
more viable (which is odd, because there are more restrictions there).

Looking at Association Football - I imagine the mods available and in
use in the 2060s will be pretty limited - the nature of the sport
doesn't warrant a lot, but with current top players earning UKP50,000
per week and above (David Beckham is supposedly on well over double that
amount as a basic), plus transfer fees still hitting huge values - 30m
for these top players - it would be easy to justify the cost of any
cyber.

Finally, going back to the legality aspects - sport has to be one of the
few places where mods would actually be used. I can't think of many
other legal situations where WR or dermal plating or muscle replacement
would actually be used (it's stated repeatedly that the military use
very few mods).

Just a few thoughts...

cheers,
--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: me@******.net (X3K6A2)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:41:42 +0200
> The SSG says that giving players a "top of the line set of wired reflexes"
> costs about the same as hiring a good player for a year; probably true,
> but if nobody has much cyberware, why would you give a single player wired
> reflexes-3 betaware? It'd be much better to spread that money around and
> enhance all your key players a bit, than make one star player superfast/
> strong/agile

Why there are some deniable assets with WR3?
In some situations you can not add more man power but it is possible
to make the man that are ingame more valuable.

In sports this is even more important, not the player Backham is worth
30m transfer, the product Backham is worth so much. The possibility to
sell T-Shirts with his face for XX bucks.
Same in 3060 a league can support a few top product, but it better to
cash your money in with this few than to have a top team and no star
product.
Winning is nice, selling stuff is better.

X3K6A2© (<-- free-market economy not only to sport)
Message no. 4
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:32:27 -0500
On May 16, 2004, at 3:54 AM, Gurth wrote:

> I was reading the section on sports in the Sprawl Survival Guide, and
> came
> across the very odd comment that most teams find "the cost of
> top-quality
> implants is still prohibitive."

I would say that this is where move by wire comes into play.....look at
Delta Grade Move By Wire 4....at delta grade, it's still 3.5 Essence,
and 16,000,000¥ I'd say that it's VERY expensive and overly
prohibitive
Message no. 5
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:53:33 +1000
>> I was reading the section on sports in the Sprawl Survival Guide, and
>> came
>> across the very odd comment that most teams find "the cost of
>> top-quality
>> implants is still prohibitive."

>I would say that this is where move by wire comes into play.....look at
>Delta Grade Move By Wire 4....at delta grade, it's still 3.5 Essence,
>and 16,000,000¥ I'd say that it's VERY expensive and overly
>prohibitive

Maybe it wasn't monitary cost but time.

Have your nervious system riped out and replaced and see how long it takes
YOU to recover.
I think you're probably going to miss spring training.
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:44:44 +0200
According to X3K6A2, on Sunday 16 May 2004 23:41 the word on the street
was...

> Same in 3060 a league can support a few top product, but it better to
> cash your money in with this few than to have a top team and no star
> product.
> Winning is nice, selling stuff is better.

All you need to do is cyber your money-making players a bit more than the
rest of the team, so they'll stand out a little bit more still than they
already do...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:46:23 +0200
According to Derek Hyde, on Monday 17 May 2004 02:32 the word on the street
was...

> I would say that this is where move by wire comes into play.....look at
> Delta Grade Move By Wire 4....at delta grade, it's still 3.5 Essence,
> and 16,000,000¥ I'd say that it's VERY expensive and overly
> prohibitive

I agree with that, but MBW is not mentioned anywhere in this section, not
to mention that if WR-3 is overkill if virtually nobody else in the game
has cyberware, then MBW-4 will certainly be...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:58:04 +0200
According to Paul Squires, on Sunday 16 May 2004 11:38 the word on the
street was...

> I've not got SSG, but assumed that the sports section was going to be
> pretty much a rewrite of previous materials - especially Shadowbeat.

I have it, but haven't actually read much of it yet, except for the bit
that actually get used in my group (the lifestyle rules, mostly). Since I
started GMing A Killing Glare yesterday, I thought I'd read up on the
sports section of SSG to see if there was anything important I needed to
be able to tell my players. I hadn't thought of re-reading what Shadowbeat
has on the subject, but now you mention it, it does seem strange that it
says that several sports have virtually no players without cyberware.

> Baseball - majors allow up to 3 essence worth of cyberware.

"Limited cyberware and bioware allowed" says the SSG. Drugs appear to be
the enhancement of choice by 2063.

> Basketball - the implication is that *every* player in the NABA has
> either level 1 WR or level 2 boosted (the maximum allowed by the
> league), plus smartball mods.

The SSG tells us these things are popular "of late", suggesting they
weren't in the early '50s...

> Football (the American variety, natch) - no limits on any cyber.

At least this didn't change :)

> Very little mention of (proper!) football, after all, Shadowbeat was
> written in 1992 (my god, I just realised that's 12 years ago) before USA
> 94 when the yanks finally realised that everyone else in the world plays
> different sports to them :)

SSG does mention it (as "soccer", of course) and says implants are only
allowed to correct injuries -- but unfortunately there does not seem to be
any cyberware in SR to replace torn ligaments in the knees :)

> Comparing that to salaries in sport nowadays (assuming that USD=nuyen) -
> the NFL salary cap (for this year) is about $80m. I don't think there
> would be a cap in the 2060s, but even if there were then body mods for
> most positions would still be viable.

My point exactly.

> Looking at Association Football - I imagine the mods available and in
> use in the 2060s will be pretty limited - the nature of the sport
> doesn't warrant a lot

Well... running faster (with or without the ball) and some kind of
smartball technology would come in handy, I think. Muscle augmentation to
shoot the ball faster could also help, and reflex boosts for the goalie
would definitely be at or near the top of my list, I think.

> Finally, going back to the legality aspects - sport has to be one of the
> few places where mods would actually be used. I can't think of many
> other legal situations where WR or dermal plating or muscle replacement
> would actually be used (it's stated repeatedly that the military use
> very few mods).

Good point. Where's the need for wired reflexes, if not in sports or the
military?

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (GreyWolf)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:06:14 +1000
Stupid question.. but what is the SSG? Im not at my usual pc so I cant check
the archives.

GreyWolf

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: Cyberware in sports


> According to Paul Squires, on Sunday 16 May 2004 11:38 the word on the
> street was...
>
> > I've not got SSG, but assumed that the sports section was going to be
> > pretty much a rewrite of previous materials - especially Shadowbeat.
>
> I have it, but haven't actually read much of it yet, except for the bit
> that actually get used in my group (the lifestyle rules, mostly). Since I
> started GMing A Killing Glare yesterday, I thought I'd read up on the
> sports section of SSG to see if there was anything important I needed to
> be able to tell my players. I hadn't thought of re-reading what Shadowbeat
> has on the subject, but now you mention it, it does seem strange that it
> says that several sports have virtually no players without cyberware.
>
> > Baseball - majors allow up to 3 essence worth of cyberware.
>
> "Limited cyberware and bioware allowed" says the SSG. Drugs appear to be
> the enhancement of choice by 2063.
>
> > Basketball - the implication is that *every* player in the NABA has
> > either level 1 WR or level 2 boosted (the maximum allowed by the
> > league), plus smartball mods.
>
> The SSG tells us these things are popular "of late", suggesting they
> weren't in the early '50s...
>
> > Football (the American variety, natch) - no limits on any cyber.
>
> At least this didn't change :)
>
> > Very little mention of (proper!) football, after all, Shadowbeat was
> > written in 1992 (my god, I just realised that's 12 years ago) before USA
> > 94 when the yanks finally realised that everyone else in the world plays
> > different sports to them :)
>
> SSG does mention it (as "soccer", of course) and says implants are only
> allowed to correct injuries -- but unfortunately there does not seem to be
> any cyberware in SR to replace torn ligaments in the knees :)
>
> > Comparing that to salaries in sport nowadays (assuming that USD=nuyen) -
> > the NFL salary cap (for this year) is about $80m. I don't think there
> > would be a cap in the 2060s, but even if there were then body mods for
> > most positions would still be viable.
>
> My point exactly.
>
> > Looking at Association Football - I imagine the mods available and in
> > use in the 2060s will be pretty limited - the nature of the sport
> > doesn't warrant a lot
>
> Well... running faster (with or without the ball) and some kind of
> smartball technology would come in handy, I think. Muscle augmentation to
> shoot the ball faster could also help, and reflex boosts for the goalie
> would definitely be at or near the top of my list, I think.
>
> > Finally, going back to the legality aspects - sport has to be one of the
> > few places where mods would actually be used. I can't think of many
> > other legal situations where WR or dermal plating or muscle replacement
> > would actually be used (it's stated repeatedly that the military use
> > very few mods).
>
> Good point. Where's the need for wired reflexes, if not in sports or the
> military?
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> ... in real life, which was styled after the film.
> -> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
>
> GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
> O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>
>
>
Message no. 10
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (GreyWolf)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:07:26 +1000
NB: Sorry. Forgot to remove the quotage in my last post.
Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 11:35:37 +0200
According to GreyWolf, on Monday 17 May 2004 11:06 the word on the street
was...

> Stupid question.. but what is the SSG? Im not at my usual pc so I cant
> check the archives.

Sprawl Survival Guide.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: pixelonpicnic@*******.com (Niels Sønderborg)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:04:25 +0200
I think SoTA has something about it as well, but I am not certain. I do
remember the passage from Killing Glare stating that middle league players
have no cyberware, and when they do get some it is a sign that they are
moving up ...

- Niels

_________________________________________________________________
Få alle de nye og sjove ikoner med MSN Messenger http://www.msn.dk/messenger
Message no. 13
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:13:51 +0100
At 09:46 AM 5/17/2004, Gurth wrote:
> > and 16,000,000¥ I'd say that it's VERY expensive and overly
> > prohibitive
>
>I agree with that, but MBW is not mentioned anywhere in this section, not
>to mention that if WR-3 is overkill if virtually nobody else in the game
>has cyberware, then MBW-4 will certainly be...

As another dissuading factor is of course that having missed half the
season while they recover from surgery and having been paid for the entire
thing (plus the cost of the cyberware) and at the end of the season they go
to another team.
In effect you must be sure of being able to make enough from a single
season's play to pay not only the player's salary but their cyber as well.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 14
From: me@******.net (X3K6A2)
Subject: Cyberware in sports
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:19:22 +0200
> In effect you must be sure of being able to make enough from a single
> season's play to pay not only the player's salary but their cyber as well.

Just make a contract for more than one season, if you don't trust your
assets cyber bombs are now sota. (But this is more for you and me I
think).

X3K6A2

Further Reading

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