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Message no. 1
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware Power Sources
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:47:41 -0500
> Cyberware Power Sources (Was Re: Cyberware: Where do you put the bateries?)
(SThanatos , Wed 18:33)

> >In my musings for today I was contemplating cyberware. I wondered how all
> >of these neat little devices got the power they need to run. Does wired
> >reflexes have a battery pack? If so why isn't it listed so I as a GM can
> >rule that it shorted out at a most inoportune time <display evil_grin>.?.

<tounge in cheek>
I always assumed it drew power from its essence cost, turning essence
sustaining lifeforce into electricty directly.
</tounge in cheek>

> Standardly, neurons produce a charge of 700
> milliwatts in a non-active state.
> If this mechanism could be maginifed, it could also be a source
> of plausable and natural eletrical current.
>

It can be. Electric eels genrate very high voltagees by having many
neurun-like cells "stacked" in series, adding thier volatages like
batteries in series. Similarly, multiple "stacks" in paralel would add
amperage. Given the abiltiy to grow similar cells (easy in SR),
engenering an organized tissue to produce the proper voltages and
currents would be doable, even with TODAYS tech (guided tissue
structuring has produced primitive "liveres" with simplified filter like
structures ofintelaced blood vessels and liver tissue).
Put such an engeneered organ in a cyberlimb, route blood (or blood
filtrates) to it, and WHOLA, organic "Fuel cell battery", plus another
excuse (besides pain) for limb damage to affect the user-the limb
BLEEDS.

-Mongoose
Message no. 2
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Cyberware Power Sources
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:08:18 +1200
Quoth Wafflemeisters (0948 08-05-98 NZT):

<<<SLICE>>>

>> Standardly, neurons produce a charge of 700
>> milliwatts in a non-active state.
>> If this mechanism could be maginifed, it could also be a source
>> of plausable and natural eletrical current.
>>
>
> It can be. Electric eels genrate very high voltagees by having
many
>neurun-like cells "stacked" in series, adding thier volatages like
>batteries in series. Similarly, multiple "stacks" in paralel would add
>amperage. Given the abiltiy to grow similar cells (easy in SR),
>engenering an organized tissue to produce the proper voltages and
>currents would be doable, even with TODAYS tech (guided tissue
>structuring has produced primitive "liveres" with simplified filter
like
>structures ofintelaced blood vessels and liver tissue).
> Put such an engeneered organ in a cyberlimb, route blood (or
blood
>filtrates) to it, and WHOLA, organic "Fuel cell battery", plus another
>excuse (besides pain) for limb damage to affect the user-the limb
>BLEEDS.

This whole thread reminds me of an idea I had for cyberlimbs that I got
when I picked up an **&* supplement (you don't wanna know). I had a
hero (I was trying to write a novella) who lost most of his right arm,
and got a special magical/mechanical replacement: adamantium bones, with
magically-cloned muscles and reinforced tendons. Such a thing would be
possible under SR technology, right? (Equivalent of titanium
bone-lacing for the actual bones, 'muscle replacement' for the tissue
and such...)

Why would someone want this? Well, apart from the bone, it'd be their
own flesh, so there would be a reduced Essence cost. The limb itself
would have no particularly special properties (apart from being
unbreakable and setting off metal detectors). It'd be more for those
civilians who want to get a limb back without expensive/unnatural
cyberware, rather than for the combat monsters.

Should this be cyberware, bioware, or a bit of both? Suggested
essence/body and monetary costs?

Danyel Woods
9604801@********.ac.nz
'Are you deliberately trying to drive me insane?'
'The universe is already mad. Anything else would be
redundant.'
Message no. 3
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware Power Sources
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 19:21:50 -0400
|> From: Wafflemeisters
|> Sent: May 7, 1998 5:48 PM
|> Subject: Re: Cyberware Power Sources

|> <tounge in cheek>
|> I always assumed it drew power from its essence cost, turning essence
|> sustaining lifeforce into electricty directly.
|> </tounge in cheek>

Gosh I love it! Best excuse for essence loss I've read so far. I might
actually use it. It's not pure technology, it's magic-tech! <grin>

As for powering cyberwear with biological energy, well, why not? Standard
limbs [by that I mean that give a person his normal strength] would not use
more power than a normal person does, so why not from a human biological
system? As for powering more powerful devices, people with such cyberwear
could be given drugs to increase their metabolism, so that they would
generate power at a high enough rate.

Makes me think of Cybergeneration, where the kids with the virus have to
eat more often than normal to make up for the high energy requirements of
their bioware.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
http://www.dsuper.net/~katt
Message no. 4
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware Power Sources
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:26:57 -0500
> Re: Cyberware Power Sources (Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>, Thu
17:08)
>>>a source of plausable and natural eletrical current.

> > Put such an engeneered organ in a cyberlimb, route blood (or
> blood
> >filtrates) to it, and WHOLA, organic "Fuel cell battery", plus another
> >excuse (besides pain) for limb damage to affect the user-the limb
> >BLEEDS.
>
> This whole thread reminds me of an idea I had for cyberlimbs that I got
> when I picked up an **&* supplement (you don't wanna know). I had a
> hero (I was trying to write a novella) who lost most of his right arm,
> and got a special magical/mechanical replacement: adamantium bones, with
> magically-cloned muscles and reinforced tendons. Such a thing would be
> possible under SR technology, right? (Equivalent of titanium
> bone-lacing for the actual bones, 'muscle replacement' for the tissue
> and such...)
>

Actually, my feeling is that this is more what a cyberlimb actually is.
Why use MOTORS, when you have artifical muscle and clonal technology.
They are partly electronic (particularly the interface), for strength
and ease of implmentation, and partly biological, for durability and
relibility. Also, the anatomy might be NOTHING like human, as far as
actual internal layout goes, requiring a "Interface" to interpret the
nural signlsa going both ways (like rigging, the interface allows
interptation and control of non-human sensations). The
"cybertechnology" pictures kinda back me up here- I imagine all those
little "musscle" looking bundles are actually MUSCLE, of some organic
(probaly stronger than human- Insect, maybe <g>) variety, inside little
life-support sheathes.

> Why would someone want this? Well, apart from the bone, it'd be their
> own flesh, so there would be a reduced Essence cost. The limb itself
> would have no particularly special properties (apart from being
> unbreakable and setting off metal detectors). It'd be more for those
> civilians who want to get a limb back without expensive/unnatural
> cyberware, rather than for the combat monsters.
>
> Should this be cyberware, bioware, or a bit of both? Suggested
> essence/body and monetary costs?

I'd say the stats for limbs as is are OK. If you want a clonal
replacement limb, those are available (no essence or BI, possible magic
loss and "rejection" problems, serious implant surgery). If you want to
muscle aug / muscle replace / bonelace just one limb, the cost is 20%
normal in all catagories. (This is based off the Cybertechnolgy 20%
discount given for those items for each Cyberlimb you have). Genarlly,
such mods aplied to only one limb would be of little effect, but doing
muscle aug in both legs might let you run faster, for example.
Cybertechnology has rules for "imbalanced" limbs. They are crummy rules
(imo), but its a starting point. I'd use these "partial augmentation"
rules for your "custom limbs", and assume the augmentations were just
done BEFORE the transimplant surgery.

-Mongoose
Message no. 5
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware Power Sources
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 20:17:18 -0500
>
> Re: Cyberware Power Sources (Katt Freyson , Thu 18:21)

> |> <tounge in cheek>
> |> I always assumed it drew power from its essence cost, turning essence
> |> sustaining lifeforce into electricty directly.
> |> </tounge in cheek>
>
> Gosh I love it! Best excuse for essence loss I've read so far. I might
> actually use it. It's not pure technology, it's magic-tech! <grin>
>
It actually explains some things, likle why cyberware didn't (as such)
apear BEFORE the awakening, and why there might be a "minimum essence
cost" for any given cyber. It also has an intersting relationship to
ED's "blood magic". But if FASA makes something like that official,
I'll walk down to Cermak with a carp and go "listal" on them. (BTW,
Chinatown is really nearby to FASA, and is the best place in Chi-town to
buy carps, even really old ones). Besides, not all essence consuming
cyber takes power- bone lacing pretty much just sits there. It even
weighs you down!

> As for powering cyberwear with biological energy, well, why not? Standard
> limbs [by that I mean that give a person his normal strength] would not use
> more power than a normal person does, so why not from a human biological
> system? As for powering more powerful devices, people with such cyberwear
> could be given drugs to increase their metabolism, so that they would
> generate power at a high enough rate.
>

Or they could have really ODD dietary requirements, like a hankering
for some trace nutrient or unnatural additive... "Twinkies and kimchee-
I need twinkies and kimchee fer my 'wares, dood!" Would be a dead give
away if security checked your lunchbox... :)

In fact, in Bruce sterlings "Islands in the Net", a Jamaican
"soldier"
had a special gut with bio-engeneered bacteria that produced a variety
of "combat drugs". To fire himself up, he ate a case of yogurt...

Has anybody considered bioware that can be "turned off" with a dietary
modification or drug? (or requires one to function?) This would be
very useful for, say, the Suprathyriod gland, which we allow
hyperthyriod medication to shut off temprarily (you'd have to know what
you are doing, or you could really mess yourself up, though- the thyroid
is a primary metabolic gland).

-Mongoose
Message no. 6
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware Power Sources
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:43:19 -0500
> Re: Cyberware Power Sources (Was Re: Cyberware: Where do you put the bateries?)
("Arno R. Lehmann" ,5:21)

> >Standardly, neurons produce a charge of 700
> >milliwatts in a non-active state. If all the standing eletrical energy
> >produced by the neurons of the body could be concentrated, it could run a
> >small lightbulb.
>
> 700 mW *PER CELL* ????
>
> How many neurons do you have?
>
> I'm just guessing, but let this be 10,000,000, then you have 7,000,000
> Watts, which is slightly more than you need to power a small
> lightbulb...

I think thats 700milliVOLTS, IE, .7volt, across a cell membrane or
synaptic junction. Current is definately nowhere NEAR one amp (I don't
recal its value), so your right, the power would not be anything like
700mw. Current is minimal. IIRC, an electric eel puts out 50-200
thousand volts, and still only a portion of a watt- mutch in the same
fashion as a stun gun, the energy is pulsed, the voltage high, and the
current quite low. So figure maybe 1/100000 of an amp? I seem to
remeber the human nervous sustem coming to somehere between 3 and 5
watts, as usually compared to PC's using about 10 times that.

Note that nerves use a lot of potasium and such when firing, so using a
"nueral powerpack" would defintely require you bump up your elctrolyte
intake, as probably would any reflex boosting 'wares (or magic), by at
least a multiple equal to your total dice. Gatoraid, anyone? Straight
from the packet, no water? Not a fun thing in the desert, where
electolyte loss is ALREADY trouble.

-Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Cyberware Power Sources
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 18:33:50 -0300
Wafflemeisters escreveu:
>
>
> >
>
> Actually, my feeling is that this is more what a cyberlimb actually is.
> Why use MOTORS, when you have artifical muscle and clonal technology.
> They are partly electronic (particularly the interface), for strength
> and ease of implmentation, and partly biological, for durability and
> relibility. Also, the anatomy might be NOTHING like human, as far as
> actual internal layout goes, requiring a "Interface" to interpret the
> nural signlsa going both ways (like rigging, the interface allows
> interptation and control of non-human sensations). The
> "cybertechnology" pictures kinda back me up here- I imagine all those
> little "musscle" looking bundles are actually MUSCLE, of some organic
> (probaly stronger than human- Insect, maybe <g>) variety, inside little
> life-support sheathes.
>

I say a cyberlimb uses myomers, wich is, metallic fiber arranged in a
muscle-like fashion. When they receive a small current, they contract,
with
a lot more strenght than nomal muscle. A chemically activated material
could
also be used (acid enviroment= contractoin, basic one = relaxation),
probably for the "civilian" cyberlimbs, the ones wich don't accept
modifications.
The chemical stuff exists today, IIRC.

Ubiratan

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