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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chipeloi)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Thu Mar 8 16:35:01 2001
Ok since i'm making an mage i'll ask some questions of the next
few day's

Now cyberwear and magic

I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of putting cyber in an
mage/shaman/adapt but what i want to know are there ppl who do
put it in?

And more specifically what kind and why?

And why would you put cyber into an mage or why not?
Ok ok that's easy the magic loss, but is it worth it or not?



--
>If you thought Chipeloi was crazy just wait till you meet me !
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (robert frazine)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Thu Mar 8 16:50:01 2001
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Chipeloi wrote:

> Ok since i'm making an mage i'll ask some questions of the next
> few day's
>
> Now cyberwear and magic
>
> I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of putting cyber in an
> mage/shaman/adapt but what i want to know are there ppl who do
> put it in?
>
> And more specifically what kind and why?


I played an ex-special forces shaman once. When he had the opportunity to
get some cyber installed, he got:

4 chipjacks, smartgunlink, opt. mag, flare comp, and eye display. He got
it Alpha, so that the essence cost was just under 1.

The chipjacks were for linguasofts and maps(which is why he went with an
eye display), the rest aided his non-magical combat ability.

i think cyber in a mage or shaman is up to the individual character.

Most shamans I played viewed cyber as a wounding of the soul.

The one above was a bit more "worldly"

Shade
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Pederson)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Thu Mar 8 17:10:01 2001
"Chipeloi" <chipeloi@***.nl> wrote:
> Ok since i'm making an mage i'll ask some questions of the next
> few day's

Hey, anything for entertainment, man.

> I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of putting cyber in an
> mage/shaman/adapt but what i want to know are there ppl who do
> put it in?

I've done it in the past. Depends a lot on the character concept.

> And more specifically what kind and why?

Usually fairly Essence-friendly stuff: cyber-eyes, smartlink,
datajack, headware memory. Combat Mages (my personal fav, but I
digress) might have a smartlink, cyber-eyes. Corporate Mages are
likely to have a datajack and some headware memory, for the same sort
of reason that any other wage slave would. Street Mages aren't likely
to have any for monetary reasons, and a lot of shamans probably
wouldn't either.

> And why would you put cyber into an mage or why not?
> Ok ok that's easy the magic loss, but is it worth it or not?

It comes down to the background issue. If it genuinely makes sense in
the character's background, you may want to go for it. It's really
the sort of thing that needs to be played by ear. If the character's
outlook isn't really amenable to cyberware, then he's probably not
going to have any. (Physical) Adepts are probably not going to have
any cyberware, or would have very little if they did.

Magic loss *does* play a part, but it will be pretty dependent on the
character. A little Magic loss may be acceptable to some characters,
even if it isn't to some others.

For some useful examples of FASA-sanctioned versions of this, check
out the Combat Mage and Burned-Out Mage archetypes from SR1 and SR2.
Gurth will know where to find them if you don't:)

--
John Pederson
pedersje@**.rose-hulman.edu
ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Thu Mar 8 18:30:01 2001
> I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of putting cyber in an
mage/shaman/adapt but what i want to know are there ppl who do put it
in?

There sure are.

> And more specifically what kind and why?

Well, sometimes cyber's got avantages magic doesn't. It's always
'on', for on, so there's no worrying about drain, you can always use
it, even involuntarily. And there are game effects that cyber can
give that magic can't... not many anymore, but some.
What kind? Low essence stuff... smartlink for sure, maybe a
knowsoft link or chipjack, cybereyes w/optical magnification, and my
personal favourite, the trauma damper (gotta love that
knock-a-box-off-the-drain option... all you need to lower it to is
Light).

> Ok ok that's easy the magic loss, but is it worth it or not?

That's a personal issue. Some mages might not think it was worth
it, some might. It's such a major thing, I think you'd have to make
it a big part of the character's background. (Here's a thought...
maybe the cyber was involuntary?)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Thu Mar 8 19:55:01 2001
> Now cyberwear and magic
>
> I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of
putting cyber in an mage/shaman/adapt but what i want
to know are there ppl who do put it in?

Yes, but it depends on the character. I've got shamans
(and even mages) who'd never even consider it. Then
I've got other guys who like the edge it gives them.

> And more specifically what kind and why?

Small stuff. ALWAYS small stuff. If you want something
like permanent reaction enhancers, you're better off
quickening an Increase Reflexes spell than buy Wired
Reflexes 3. Although as of M&M the Synaptic
Accelerator 2 is now a viable option for a mage. I've
got a sorceror adept with that.

Here's what one of my more advanced mages has. Bear in
mind, he got hisself a VERY good surgeon and paid
through the nose for his services (we were using the
surgery rules from M&M, where you can lower the
essence/bio-index cost of implants with good surgery,
and all the cyber is beta grade). This cost him 1
point of essence for the cyber and 1 point of
bio-index. He's initiated enough that it doesn't
matter, though

Clean Metabolism
Trauma Damper - The mage's best friend...
Mnemonic Enhancer 3 - The mage's second best friend.
:)

Cyberears
Dampener
Hearing Amplification
Recorder
Spatial Recognition
Cybereyes
Display Link
Flare Compensation
Image Link
Low-Light
Optical Vision Magnification 3
Opticam
Rangefinder
Retinal Clock
Thermographic
Induction Datajack
Memory – 120 Mp
Smartlink II
Subdermal Speakers
Subvocal Microphone

Here's my recommendation. Starting character? Do NOT
put in any more than 1 point of cyber. Or bio. One or
the other, but either way, unless you intend to take a
bunch of geasa to compensate for having lots of cyber,
your effectiveness as a mage will be compromised too
much. Dropping yourself down to Magic 4, or even
worse, 3 or less, is not going to be compensated for
by your cyber.

Unless you intend to be a serious combat mage and rely
mostly on weaponry etc., with your magic only as a
backup.

> And why would you put cyber into an mage or why not?

Like I said, the edge. My adept with the Synaptic
Accelerator can hold his own in a fight because of his
speed, but he doesn't have to worry about quickened or
sustained spells hanging around. My other mage...well,
look at him. He can hear and see better than a normal
person, he can record conversations and even video
footage, he can deck and, by hooking up an external
radio to his datajack he can conduct virtually silent
communications, he's a better shot than regular Joes,
his memory is enhanced, he's never going to fart or
burp embarrassingly in social situations and he
doesn't have to worry quite so much about taking
damage.

> Ok ok that's easy the magic loss, but is it worth it
or not?
> >If you thought Chipeloi was crazy just wait till
you meet me !

Like I said, it all depends on the character. A small
amount of cyber or bio is almost always
worthwhile...BUT if your character wouldn't consider
damaging themselves in that way, then you shouldn't do
it to them just for the edge.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 02:05:06 2001
Chipeloi writes:

> I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of putting cyber in an
> mage/shaman/adapt but what i want to know are there ppl who do
> put it in?

Quite a number. About one in 4 seems to, and about one in 3 seems to
seriously consider it and/or plan to, in my experience.

> And more specifically what kind and why?

Besides the obvious things that others have mentioned (smartlinks, etc.) one
of the best that I've ever seen is skillwires. A moderate to high level
skillwires can allow an otherwise basically unskilled magically active
character to be extremely versatile. Most magicians have really bad skills
(except for sorcery 6 and maybe conjuring), often none at all other than
magical ones. Now they too can drive, shoot, use medkits properly, and a
whole host of other things to boot.

One of the ideas my players have had is putting a pain editor in their team
magician. Probably in conjunction with a trauma damper, for the reasons
others have mentioned. They like the idea of the pain editor, as their
magician takes no TN penalites from stun damage (ie drain), and does not
fall unconcious when on 10 boxes of stun. This is really handy for handing
out repeated thumpings with spells. Also, it's really handy for casting
sustained spells that do Deadly drain, as the spell can be sustained no
matter what, as the caster is not unconcious. There are lots of
possibilities there...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
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M-- V- PS+ PE(-) Y+>++ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X++>+++ R+(++) !tv(--) b+ DI+++@
D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 05:40:04 2001
According to Chipeloi, on Thu, 08 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of putting cyber in an
> mage/shaman/adapt but what i want to know are there ppl who do
> put it in?

Sure. If you think back to our Cyberpirates campaign, we had the
technomancer with his hand grenade fireballs and (IIRC) 2 Essence worth of
cyberware.

> And more specifically what kind and why?

Anything that does something magic can't, and doesn't cost too much
Essence. IMHO realistically speaking a datajack would be very common
(because often it would be implanted before it's discovered that the person
is a magician), and among shadowrunners there'd be plenty of boosted
reflexes (level 1, higher levels cost too much Essence) and smartlinks. Or
bone lacing, for those mages who feel they're not tough enough.

Besides that, eye modifications are a good idea, especially for humans.
Anyone benefits from flare compensation, while thermographic is handy for
everyone except dwarfs and trolls.

Everything put together, the trick is to keep your Essence above 4 or 5.
That way you'll still be able to cast powerful enough spells, and at the
same time have enough cyberware to give you a definite edge over
non-cybered magicians.

> And why would you put cyber into an mage or why not?
> Ok ok that's easy the magic loss, but is it worth it or not?

Because if you choose the right cyberware, the advantages outweigh the
disadvantages. Look at your own character: is there a physad power that
does what a smartlink II does, and for the same cost? I don't think so, so
you took the smartlink.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 05:40:09 2001
According to John Pederson, on Thu, 08 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> For some useful examples of FASA-sanctioned versions of this, check
> out the Combat Mage and Burned-Out Mage archetypes from SR1 and SR2.
> Gurth will know where to find them if you don't:)

All I need to do is loan him one of my SR1 or SR2 books :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (bluedragon7)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 07:05:01 2001
From: "Chipeloi" <chipeloi@***.nl>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:38 PM

> Ok since i'm making an mage i'll ask some questions of the next
> few day's
>
> Now cyberwear and magic
>
> I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of putting cyber in an
> mage/shaman/adapt but what i want to know are there ppl who do
> put it in?
>
> And more specifically what kind and why?
>
> And why would you put cyber into an mage or why not?
> Ok ok that's easy the magic loss, but is it worth it or not?
>
normaly i dont have any cyber for magical characters, but my newest char has
VCR II, smartII, skillwires and small goodies for 4 essence alpha (with 3
geasa, used mainly for conjuring) and 2 points of bioware. Its an initiate
grade 3 with masking, invoking and shielding, 3 spells: nutrition 2, heal 6
and stunball 6.
This way i can augment my drones with elementals
"greatform air elemental, please move my condors out there, quick"
"greatform earth elemental, could u just make a hole in that wall, big
enough for my steel lynx?"
it helps a lot and elementals can be conjured way in advance, though
concealment by a nature spirit would be nice too.

bluedragon7
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Yacht)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 09:30:00 2001
> I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of putting cyber in an
> mage/shaman/adapt but what i want to know are there ppl who do
> put it in?
>
> And more specifically what kind and why?
>
> And why would you put cyber into an mage or why not?
> Ok ok that's easy the magic loss, but is it worth it or not?

Smartgun link. Cyber replacement eyes with Optical (not digital)
magnification.

Smartgun is obvious, gives the mage a bit more kick without relying on
magic.

Op Mag is for the simple reason of being able to extend Line Of Sight a
hundred or so times further than normal. Has to be op mag. May want to
fill the rest of the cybereye with other stuff too, since you get it free.

Once you've lose that 1 pt of Essence, mind as well fill the gap with a
point of bioware too.

-Meatnog
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 09:35:00 2001
> Once you've lose that 1 pt of Essence, mind as well fill the gap
with a point of bioware too.
> -Meatnog

Bioware will cost you another point of Magic, though. There's no
'gap.' Unless I misunderstand you.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Yacht)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 09:50:01 2001
> > Once you've lose that 1 pt of Essence, mind as well fill the gap
> with a point of bioware too.
> > -Meatnog
>
> Bioware will cost you another point of Magic, though. There's no
> 'gap.' Unless I misunderstand you.
>
> ====> -Boondocker
>

No, I meant the gap between whatever the smartgun+eyes and the full 1 point.
It is early, and I was up late, and I really typed that in wrong :)

-Nog
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 13:10:01 2001
> Once you've lose that 1 pt of Essence, mind as well fill the gap with a
> point of bioware too.

I don't think it works that way. Bioware goes off you magic rating. So
a point of cyber and a point of bio would give you an effective magic of
4.

Bai Shen
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wavy Davy)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 13:15:10 2001
The other day Chipeloi said:

> Ok since i'm making an mage i'll ask some questions of the next
> few day's
>
> Now cyberwear and magic
>
> I know that i lot of ppl don't like the idea of putting cyber in an
> mage/shaman/adapt but what i want to know are there ppl who do
> put it in?

Yup. I think FASA portrays mages as a little to cyberphobic. I'm abig
fan of techno-magic x-over.

> And more specifically what kind and why?

Aside for those already mentioned (cyber eyes, trauma dampner, etc)

Cerebral booster - good for astral warriors and spell designers. Does
intelligence figure into spell pool or not? I cant remember.

I've always liked the idea or having a hermetic library in your head,
but rules wise, this is practically impossible. With a data compacter 3
and 1800mp that would cost....@***,000 and 6.4 essence, IRC. Deltaware
would be 3.2 essence, but foci would be a better investment of the money
invloved. I would allow it as a cyberlimb option with a DN link, though.

> And why would you put cyber into an mage or why not?
> Ok ok that's easy the magic loss, but is it worth it or not?

I prefer a little over alot, but I can see the extreme near burn out
attraction, but not as a starting char.


I think I remember reading rules somewhere about shamans who takes
bio/cyberware to emulate their totem to get some essence cost reduction.
Plastic warriors or somewhere, I think. I designed a real cool mantis
shaman off that idea, with a dozen (literally) bio-spurs and chloroplast
skin :)

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...Isn't it funny how we'll look out the window at the moon, and then we
notice it's not the moon but a streetlight? Also what's funny is how we do
this every night.
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (TexasFriedCriminal)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 13:35:00 2001
From: Bai Shen
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 8:23 PM

> > Once you've lose that 1 pt of Essence, mind as well fill the gap with a
> > point of bioware too.
>
> I don't think it works that way. Bioware goes off you magic rating. So
> a point of cyber and a point of bio would give you an effective magic of
> 4.

I wonder if under 3rd edition rules, whe you have 0.6 points of cyber and
0.4 of bio installed, do you lose one or two points of your magic rating ?

from the descripiton in m&m it seems to me that bioware subtracts from your
magic rating independently from cyber ware... thus you would lose 2 points
of magic when having 0.1 bio and 0.1 cyber installed

any opinions?

-- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ -- ((www.neosophia.exit.de))

Random Grimmness Table:
46 - 50 Ork scorchers massacre home town.
51 - 55 Hometown massacres group of peaceful ork scorchers.
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 13:45:00 2001
> I wonder if under 3rd edition rules, whe you have 0.6 points of
cyber and 0.4 of bio installed, do you lose one or two points of your
magic rating ?

All signs point to yes.

(2 that is)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wavy Davy)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 14:05:01 2001
On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Scott W wrote:

>
> > I wonder if under 3rd edition rules, whe you have 0.6 points of
> cyber and 0.4 of bio installed, do you lose one or two points of your
> magic rating ?
>
> All signs point to yes.
>
> (2 that is)

As the rules read, I think Boondocker's right. I'd allow the split though.
Just makes sense.

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...When you first start wearing a turban, probably the most common mistake is
wrapping it too tight. You have to allow the head to breathe.
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 15:55:01 2001
At 07:30 PM 3/9/2001 +0100, Texas Fried Criminal wrote:
> From: Bai Shen
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 8:23 PM
>
>> > Once you've lose that 1 pt of Essence, mind as well fill the gap with a
>> > point of bioware too.
>>
>> I don't think it works that way. Bioware goes off you magic rating. So
>> a point of cyber and a point of bio would give you an effective magic of
>> 4.
>
>I wonder if under 3rd edition rules, whe you have 0.6 points of cyber and
>0.4 of bio installed, do you lose one or two points of your magic rating ?
>
>from the descripiton in m&m it seems to me that bioware subtracts from your
>magic rating independently from cyber ware... thus you would lose 2 points
>of magic when having 0.1 bio and 0.1 cyber installed
>

Yep, you've got it right. ).1 bio and 0.1 cyber results in 2 points of
magic lost. Of course, the point of magic lost from the bio is only
'blocked', not actually lost.....accoring to M&M this is 'less damaging' to
the mage than the cyber, even though with the cyber you can take a geas,
while you can't with the bio. But thats another rant entirely.

Dave
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 16:10:01 2001
> Yep, you've got it right. ).1 bio and 0.1 cyber results in 2 points of
> magic lost. Of course, the point of magic lost from the bio is only
> 'blocked', not actually lost.....accoring to M&M this is 'less damaging' to
> the mage than the cyber, even though with the cyber you can take a geas,
> while you can't with the bio. But thats another rant entirely.

I think the point is that you can remove the bio later and get the point
back, while you can't with cyber.

Bai Shen
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 20:20:05 2001
>I wonder if under 3rd edition rules, whe you have 0.6 points of cyber and
>0.4 of bio installed, do you lose one or two points of your magic rating ?
>
>from the descripiton in m&m it seems to me that bioware subtracts from your
>magic rating independently from cyber ware... thus you would lose 2 points
>of magic when having 0.1 bio and 0.1 cyber installed
>
>any opinions?

The above conclusion is correct. I personally would allow lost essecne to
be treated as BI, but not the other way around. That way, a magical
character with 4.6 essence and a 1.4 BI could treat .4 of the lost essence
as BI, meaning he would loose 3 magic points (instead of 4), but could take
a (single) geas to keep (only) one of them.

IMO, allowing a geas to offset any of the magic loss caused by bioware is
overly genrous, since most bioware is both more effective per point than
cyber, and more specifically helpful to magical characters.

-Mongoose
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 21:05:01 2001
> > > Once you've lose that 1 pt of Essence, mind as
well fill the gap with a point of bioware too.
> > > -Meatnog
> >
> > Bioware will cost you another point of Magic,
though. There's no 'gap.' Unless I misunderstand
you.
> > -Boondocker
>
> No, I meant the gap between whatever the
smartgun+eyes and the full 1 point. It is early, and I
was up late, and I really typed that in wrong :)
> -Nog

Uh, Nog, I always interpreted it as that cyber and bio
was treated separately. You buy half a point of cyber
and half a point of bio and you lose TWO points of
magic. The cyber drops your magic rating by one and
the bio then lowers your VIRTUAL magic rating by a
second point.

Anyone care to back me up, or tell me how wrong I am?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 21:30:05 2001
> > I wonder if under 3rd edition rules, whe you have
0.6 points of cyber and 0.4 of bio installed, do you
lose one or two points of your magic rating ?
>
> All signs point to yes.
>
> (2 that is)
> ====> -Boondocker

What the hell is this???

DAMMMIT, Scott, you KNOW that I'M the Magic
Eightball!!!

*Doc' storms off, muttering, "Should I kill him? All
signs point to yes," under his breath...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 21:35:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> Uh, Nog, I always interpreted it as that cyber and
bio was treated separately. You buy half a point of
cyber and half a point of bio and you lose TWO points
of magic. The cyber drops your magic rating by one and
the bio then lowers your VIRTUAL magic rating by a
second point.
>
> Anyone care to back me up, or tell me how wrong I
am?
> ====> Doc'

Well, uh...yeah.

Glad most of you seem to agree with me.

Let's hear it for the marvels of modern technology
that let me reply AGES after the point has become
moot. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 21:45:01 2001
>> Anyone care to back me up, or tell me how wrong I am?

> Well, uh...yeah.
>
> Glad most of you seem to agree with me.
>
> Let's hear it for the marvels of modern technology that let me
reply AGES after the point has become moot. ;)

lol... I hear you, man. Happened to me too:

Step 1 - Read post.
Step 2 - Post informative and most importantly, early answer.
Step 3 - See many, many other responses saying exactly what you said
and feel smug about how you got there first.
Step 4 - Come off like an unoriginal and slightly dim 'me-tooer' when
your message finally wanders off the server.
Step 5 - Send witty post detailing tribulations and don't see it turn
up until the point is moot yet again... :)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 21:50:01 2001
>> All signs point to yes.

>> -Boondocker

> What the hell is this???

Ask again later.

> DAMMMIT, Scott, you KNOW that I'M the Magic Eightball!!!

Unclear.

> *Doc' storms off, muttering, "Should I kill him? All signs point to
yes," under his breath...*

*Boonie shakes the eightball... "'Start packing heat?' That's a
new one..."*

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (TexasFriedCriminal)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Fri Mar 9 21:55:01 2001
From: Scott W
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 3:46 AM

> lol... I hear you, man. Happened to me too:
>
> Step 1 - Read post.
> Step 2 - Post informative and most importantly, early answer.
> Step 3 - See many, many other responses saying exactly what you said
> and feel smug about how you got there first.
> Step 4 - Come off like an unoriginal and slightly dim 'me-tooer' when
> your message finally wanders off the server.
> Step 5 - Send witty post detailing tribulations and don't see it turn
> up until the point is moot yet again... :)
>
> ====> -Boondocker

*lol*

and thx for the definite answer too

*still laughing*
you are so right..

-- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ -- ((www.neosophia.exit.de))

Random Grimmness Table:
46 - 50 Ork scorchers massacre home town.
51 - 55 Hometown massacres group of peaceful ork scorchers.
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Sat Mar 10 05:30:01 2001
According to Michael Yacht, on Fri, 09 Mar 2001 the word on the street
was...

> Op Mag is for the simple reason of being able to extend Line Of Sight a
> hundred or so times further than normal. Has to be op mag. May want to
> fill the rest of the cybereye with other stuff too, since you get it free.

This is a very tricky question: does vision magnification in a cybereye
have to be optical, or can it be electronic?

If it's implanted into a natural eye, you could certainly use the
electronic type because you're paying Essence for it. However, IMHO you can
also have electronic mag in a cybereye, because you paid Essence for the
eye -- it's not as if there's any difference between the output of the eye
(to the brain) on the magnified or the unmagnified setting...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Sat Mar 10 05:30:23 2001
According to Wavy Davy, on Fri, 09 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> I've always liked the idea or having a hermetic library in your head,
> but rules wise, this is practically impossible. With a data compacter 3
> and 1800mp that would cost....@***,000 and 6.4 essence, IRC. Deltaware
> would be 3.2 essence, but foci would be a better investment of the money
> invloved. I would allow it as a cyberlimb option with a DN link, though.

You could also go for carrying the library around in some kind of data
storage device, and plugging it into a datajack. The only drawback here is
that the library can be taken away, but it does free you from having to
walk to a computer all the time during rituals.

> I think I remember reading rules somewhere about shamans who takes
> bio/cyberware to emulate their totem to get some essence cost reduction.
> Plastic warriors or somewhere, I think.

I don't remember seeing that, so my guess is that it was somewhere else you
found this idea.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mister Incognito)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Sat Mar 10 06:35:01 2001
Gurth wrote:

>Because if you choose the right cyberware, the advantages outweigh the
>disadvantages. Look at your own character: is there a physad power > that
>does what a smartlink II does, and for the same cost? I don't > think so,
>so you took the smartlink.

I always just used the Enhanced Aim spell (from MiTS IIRC). For every two
sucesses it gives you -1TN for shots, kinda like smartlinks. Have this at
Force 4 and you've got the same -2TN as a smartlink-2. Just have your
friendly group mage quick it to you - and use the double karma rule as well
to make it harder to dispell.

Perfect for magical PC's like the Adept that I'm currently running. Simple
really.
_________________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Sat Mar 10 11:30:01 2001
> This is a very tricky question: does vision magnification in a
cybereye have to be optical, or can it be electronic?

> If it's implanted into a natural eye, you could certainly use the
electronic type because you're paying Essence for it. However, IMHO
you can also have electronic mag in a cybereye, because you paid
Essence for the eye -- it's not as if there's any difference between
the output of the eye (to the brain) on the magnified or the
unmagnified setting...

SR3 says, (arbitrarily, I think) that "for mages, it must be the
latter," referring to optical magnification. I dunno whether it
makes sense, but it's in the rules, and it's never mattered for me...
I just stick it in an alpha cybereye and go.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chipeloi)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Sat Mar 10 16:50:05 2001
In the asylum, Scott W whispered in the corridors:

and my personal favourite, the trauma damper (gotta love that
> knock-a-box-off-the-drain option... all you need to lower it to is
> Light).
>
> > Ok ok that's easy the magic loss, but is it worth it or not?
>
> That's a personal issue. Some mages might not think it was worth
> it, some might. It's such a major thing, I think you'd have to make
> it a big part of the character's background. (Here's a thought...
> maybe the cyber was involuntary?)
>


Heee i like that .. ooo i like that a lot and gurth suggested i look
into the crone books for some good but different cyber.

thanks for the idea

--
>If you thought Chipeloi was crazy just wait till you meet me !
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chipeloi)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Sat Mar 10 16:50:13 2001
In the asylum, Rand Ratinac whispered in the corridors:

>
>
>
>
> Here's what one of my more advanced mages has. Bear in
> mind, he got himself a VERY good surgeon and paid
> through the nose for his services (we were using the
> surgery rules from M&M, where you can lower the
> essence/bio-index cost of implants with good surgery,
> and all the cyber is beta grade).

Hmmm now i knew i was forgetting something..
the new surgery rules ...they can make an big difference...


Now anyone know how i can get Gurth in letting me use them? =)

--
>If you thought Chipeloi was crazy just wait till you meet me !
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chipeloi)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Sat Mar 10 17:00:06 2001
In the asylum, John Pederson whispered in the corridors:

>
>
>
. (Physical) Adepts are probably not going to have
> any cyberware, or would have very little if they did.


Killing hands serius
Distand strike

Cyber: Range finder !
And since you got thet fill in the rest ...


You never ever get the discussions how far is he away from me?
GM: wel throw perception:

Hmmm well you THINK he's about ...4.5 meters away from you
(really 6 meter)


--
>If you thought Chipeloi was crazy just wait till you meet me !
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Mon Mar 12 06:05:01 2001
According to Mister Incognito, on Sat, 10 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> >Because if you choose the right cyberware, the advantages outweigh the
> >disadvantages. Look at your own character: is there a physad power > that
> >does what a smartlink II does, and for the same cost? I don't > think so,
> >so you took the smartlink.
>
> I always just used the Enhanced Aim spell (from MiTS IIRC). For every two
> sucesses it gives you -1TN for shots, kinda like smartlinks. Have this at
> Force 4 and you've got the same -2TN as a smartlink-2. Just have your
> friendly group mage quick it to you - and use the double karma rule as well
> to make it harder to dispell.

IMHO, the cost of a smartlink is so low that it's much handier to go for
the cyberware. With the spell, you need to sustain it (at a +2 TN that
negates the spell's bonus unless it's Force 6+, so you might as well not
cast it at all), put it in a sustaining focus (Force 4 = lotsa money), or
else first become an initiate and take Quickening (=high Karma cost). The
lost magic point isn't such a big deal, if you ask me, because most
magicians I've seen in play don't use Force 6 spells very often anyway.
Most take Force 3 to 5 spells so they can have a bit more flexibility (by
knowing more spells).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Mon Mar 12 19:40:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> IMHO, the cost of a smartlink is so low that it's
much handier to go for the cyberware. With the spell,
you need to sustain it (at a +2 TN that negates the
spell's bonus unless it's Force 6+, so you might as
well not cast it at all), put it in a sustaining focus
(Force 4 = lotsa money), or else first become an
initiate and take Quickening (=high Karma cost).

Personally, I'd rather have it quickened...at Force
10...;)

> The lost magic point isn't such a big deal, if you
ask me, because most magicians I've seen in play don't
use Force 6 spells very often anyway. Most take Force
3 to 5 spells so they can have a bit more flexibility
(by knowing more spells).
> Gurth@******.nl -

Speak for yourself, Gurth. That works in your game
(and in mine, actually), because you let mages
increase the force of their spells later on. For games
where that isn't an option, it's much more efficient
for mages to learn spells at as high a force as they
can. The vast majority of players I've come across
(including me) tend to get force 6 spells whenever
they can at creation.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Tue Mar 13 05:40:13 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Tue, 13 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> Speak for yourself, Gurth.

As if I'll speak for you... :)

> That works in your game (and in mine, actually), because you let mages
> increase the force of their spells later on.

That's not the reason, I think. (Hardly anyone in my games has ever
upgraded a spell; they either learn new ones or spend their Karma on
something else altogether.) It'll work in most games, IMHO, because it's a
matter of finding the right tool for the job. Certainly, if you know a
spell at Force 6 you can cast it at a lower Force when you need or want to,
but my experience is that the majority of spells work as well as necessary
at around Force 4. Combat spells (and Heal and Treat) are the exception, in
many cases, but for most "utility" spells this is a good Force. It
naturally also depends on the campaign you're in, the GM's views on how
tough things should be, and so on, but this is my finding at any rate :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Cyberwear and Magic
Date: Tue Mar 13 07:10:04 2001
> > Speak for yourself, Gurth.
>
> As if I'll speak for you... :)

Who'd want to? ;)

> > That works in your game (and in mine, actually),
because you let mages increase the force of their
spells later on.
>
> That's not the reason, I think. (Hardly anyone in my
games has ever upgraded a spell; they either learn new
ones or spend their Karma on something else
altogether.) It'll work in most games, IMHO, because
it's a matter of finding the right tool for the job.
Certainly, if you know a spell at Force 6 you can cast
it at a lower Force when you need or want to, but my
experience is that the majority of spells work as well
as necessary at around Force 4. Combat spells (and
Heal and Treat) are the exception, in many cases, but
for most "utility" spells this is a good Force. It
naturally also depends on the campaign you're in, the
GM's views on how tough things should be, and so on,
but this is my finding at any rate :)
> Gurth@******.nl -

*shrug*

You say tomato...

;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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