Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:05:05 -0500

Message no. 1 :Here's a thought on this topic, if a mage spots a cyberzombie in the astral
:and attacks using astral combat, and does not 'kill' the zombie on the
first
:strike, does this mean that the zombie's magical nature holding him
together
:lashes back out at the opponent at full throttle? Would it do Ward or
normal
:astral combat damage?

Cyberzombies are dual natured, but can't use astral perception. That
means they can't use astral combat, even to counter-attack (using astral
combat requires astral perception or projection; its just, most dual natured
creatures DO get astral perception). The TN to attack them would be raised
by twice the absolute value of thier essence, though, and they might very
well have impact armor as part of their cyber (or bio) enhancements.
Putting some sort of astral protection on you cyberzombie is a very good
idea; you'd probably end up using some sort of sustained spell, and either a
sustaining focus, an anchor, or a quickening. Good candidate spells include
"astral armor", a new spell in MiTS. Unfortunately, "astral static"
is not
listed, and may be one spell the new spell design system will not allow.
Warding individual people is not possible, afaik; the protection offered by
being a cyberzombie is already the next closest thing, I believe.
Hmm, if the guy had a full cyberbody, and you wanted to do "tattoo
magic", would you paint the "tattoo" on like a airbrushed van mural, or
pinstriping? :)

Mongoose

From:	Shawn Plummer plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:53:21 -0400

Message no. 2 Mongoose wrote:
> means they can't use astral combat, even to counter-attack (using astral
> combat requires astral perception or projection; its just, most dual natured
> creatures DO get astral perception).

Dual Natured Beings (by definition) are always astrally perceiving
AFAIK.

--
Plum
shawn@*******.net

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live
forever."
- Gandhi

From:	Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:58:54 -0400

Message no. 3 At 04:53 PM 4/29/99 , Shawn Plummer wrote:
>Mongoose wrote:
>> means they can't use astral combat, even to counter-attack (using astral
>> combat requires astral perception or projection; its just, most dual natured
>> creatures DO get astral perception).
>
> Dual Natured Beings (by definition) are always astrally perceiving
>AFAIK.

An active foci is Dual Natured, as it exists on both the Astral Plane and
Physical plane. You can't ground anything through it in SR3, but it does
come along with your aura. And only really wierd foci can astrally perceive. ;)

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:34:35 EDT

Message no. 4 In a message dated 4/29/1999 3:10:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> Hmm, if the guy had a full cyberbody, and you wanted to do "tattoo
> magic", would you paint the "tattoo" on like a airbrushed van mural,
or
> pinstriping? :)

Or would you use Engraving or "Copperplate Spencarian Calligraphy" techniques
to accomplish a "Tattooing" effect?

-K (and everyone wondered why I had skills like this running loose on my
character once)

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:49:32 -0500

Message no. 5 :> Hmm, if the guy had a full cyberbody, and you wanted to do "tattoo
:> magic", would you paint the "tattoo" on like a airbrushed van mural,
or
:> pinstriping? :)
:
:Or would you use Engraving or "Copperplate Spencarian Calligraphy"
techniques
:to accomplish a "Tattooing" effect?
:
:-K (and everyone wondered why I had skills like this running loose on my
:character once)

Well, since the tattoo inks have to be enchanted, you'd either have to
do the engraving on enchanter plates, then rivet them on, or somehow enchant
the materiel (the cyber) the engraving was done on. If your talking about
acid etching, I suppose you could enchant the etch bath.

Mongoose (who is just hypothesizing, and to enjoy the idea rather silly idea
of a cyberzombie who looks like a painted up lowrider or towtruck, or and
engraved suite of medieval armor)

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:26:05 EDT

Message no. 6 In a message dated 4/29/1999 6:25:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> Well, since the tattoo inks have to be enchanted, you'd either have to
> do the engraving on enchanter plates, then rivet them on, or somehow
enchant
> the materiel (the cyber) the engraving was done on. If your talking about
> acid etching, I suppose you could enchant the etch bath.

Actually, engraving carries many titles and placements to it. I used to
perform it (and copperplate and other simpler serif-oriented techniques) when
I was in High School (gaining some certificates once for a couple of hundred
bucks...I don't know why I gave it up). Anywho...engraving can be performed
in such a way as to include an "acid staining" or a "metal scoring"
technique
that also includes "inks", many of which are very similar to the
principalities used behind Tattoo.

Additionally, if you think about it a bit, "Cybermancy" is a terribly
powerful artwork that would almost have to involve some kind of enchantment
work if it were to gain any real strength/durability beyond the basics of
Cybertechnologies meager introduction.

> Mongoose (who is just hypothesizing, and to enjoy the idea rather silly
idea
> of a cyberzombie who looks like a painted up lowrider or towtruck, or and
> engraved suite of medieval armor)

I do believe that after May 7th (here in the states)...people are really
going to question the term "Cyberzombie"....mythical rags...fanciful metal
garments (armor or otherwise)...powerful scrolls containing ancients names
and the power(s) associated with the invoking of those names...oh yeah...I'm
not going to miss it...

-K

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:09:33 -0500

Message no. 7 On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:53:21 -0400 Shawn Plummer
<plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu> writes:
>Mongoose wrote:
>> means they can't use astral combat, even to counter-attack (using
astral
>> combat requires astral perception or projection; its just, most dual
natured
>> creatures DO get astral perception).

> Dual Natured Beings (by definition) are always astrally perceiving
>AFAIK.

Cyberzombies are an exception (at least until Man and Machine comes
out)... The spells binding their aura to their body as well as their aura
wanting to leave their body makes them viable astral targets. Also,
check the Magic Sense Physical Adept power in Awakenings (or possibly in
MitS ...) for a similar situation.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
Free IQ test: Press Ctrl+Alt+Delete

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:10:26 +1000

Message no. 8 At 03:05 29/04/99 -0500, Mongoose wrote:
> Cyberzombies are dual natured, but can't use astral perception. That
>means they can't use astral combat, even to counter-attack (using astral
>combat requires astral perception or projection; its just, most dual natured

I don't believe that cyberzombies are astrally ineffectual. Since cyberzombies
are dual natured, they exist in astral space which means they can affect astral
entities - projecting magicians, spirits, etc. Without astral perception
they're blind, sure, but that doesn't stop them from trying to thump those
astral pests; they just suffer the melee modifier for an invisible target.
Cyberzombies are probably fast enough and skilled enough to get a hit in and,
if the projecting magician is careless and unprepared, possibly squash the
magician.

Chris

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:02:40 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 9 > > Cyberzombies are dual natured, but can't use astral perception.
That means they can't use astral combat, even to counter-attack (using
astral combat requires astral perception or projection; its just, most
dual natured
>
> I don't believe that cyberzombies are astrally ineffectual. Since
cyberzombies are dual natured, they exist in astral space which means
they can affect astral entities - projecting magicians, spirits, etc.
Without astral perception they're blind, sure, but that doesn't stop
them from trying to thump those astral pests; they just suffer the
melee modifier for an invisible target. Cyberzombies are probably fast
enough and skilled enough to get a hit in and, if the projecting
magician is careless and unprepared, possibly squash the magician.
> Chris

I don't think so, Chris - although Mongoose is technically incorrect
(the requirement to be able to engage in astral combat is to be
astrally ACTIVE, not to astrally perceive - although in most cases,
they're one and the same). On the other hand, if you look up
Cybertechnology, one of the major problems about being a Cyberzombie is
that they're an astral magnet - they attract all sorts of weird astral
stuff. Their one saving grace is that they're very difficult to effect
magically - they can't astrally defend themselves though, because it's
all the SPELLS that make them active. They aren't in and of themselves
astrally active.

Not exactly spelled out, but that's always been my reading of it.

Look at it this way - yes, a mage can use astral projection to screw
with a cyberzombie. On the other hand, people who can afford to make a
cyberzombie can afford to hire magical support for him. So while that
zombie is going off, rampaging through the physical plane, he has a
mage or two - or elementals or whatever - hovering around him, ready to
frag anything that tries to screw with him astrally.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. When you're talking the tens of millions
of nuyen required to create a zombie, hiring mages is petty cash.

*Doc' replaces his head with a cyberass...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From:	Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:37:52 +0200

Message no. 10 Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>
>
> Or would you use Engraving or "Copperplate Spencarian Calligraphy"
techniques
> to accomplish a "Tattooing" effect?
>
Hey! I have a char, not a CZ, but with dermal sheating who has a
engraved Yakuza 'tatoo' on her back. <g>

--
Barbie

=-=-=-=SR4 will lead the way=-=-=- -=-=-=-Feel the power-=-=-=-

From:	Shawn Plummer plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:23:45 -0400

Message no. 11 > On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:53:21 -0400 Shawn Plummer
> <plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu> writes:
>>Mongoose wrote:
>>> means they can't use astral combat, even to counter-attack (using
> astral
>>> combat requires astral perception or projection; its just, most dual
> natured
>>> creatures DO get astral perception).
>
>> Dual Natured Beings (by definition) are always astrally perceiving
>>AFAIK.
>
> Cyberzombies are an exception (at least until Man and Machine comes
> out)... The spells binding their aura to their body as well as their aura
> wanting to leave their body makes them viable astral targets. Also,
> check the Magic Sense Physical Adept power in Awakenings (or possibly in
> MitS ...) for a similar situation.
>

It was my understanding that CZ's were not dual natured nor
astrally active themselves. However the large amount of quickened
spells and anchorings and all the other bad mojo around them made
prime targets for mages (thus the need to hire mages/elementals, to
protect the CZ. So you cannot actually physically harm the CZ's body
through the astral spells, however if the astral spells are dispelled
then the CZ is effectively dead.

--
Plum
shawn@*******.net

"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which
differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people
are not even capable of forming such opinions."
- Albert Einstein (1875-1955)

From:	Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Sat, 01 May 1999 02:49:36 +1000

Message no. 12 At 01:02 30/04/99 -0700, Rand Ratinac wrote:
>I don't think so, Chris - although Mongoose is technically incorrect
>(the requirement to be able to engage in astral combat is to be
>astrally ACTIVE, not to astrally perceive - although in most cases,

Sure.

>they're one and the same). On the other hand, if you look up
>Cybertechnology, one of the major problems about being a Cyberzombie is
>that they're an astral magnet - they attract all sorts of weird astral
>stuff. Their one saving grace is that they're very difficult to effect
>magically - they can't astrally defend themselves though, because it's
>all the SPELLS that make them active. They aren't in and of themselves
>astrally active.

Well, the cyberzombie can't do much about astral spell casting nor about
spirits and projecting magicians he's not aware of, that's certainly true.
However, the cyberzombie can be attacked in astral space. That's pretty
explicit. Since the spells that form and sustain the cyberzombie cannot be
attacked themselves this then implies, to me, that the cyberzombie has been
made somehow dual natured by the cybermancy rituals.

>Not exactly spelled out, but that's always been my reading of it.
>Look at it this way - yes, a mage can use astral projection to screw
>with a cyberzombie. On the other hand, people who can afford to make a
>cyberzombie can afford to hire magical support for him. So while that
>zombie is going off, rampaging through the physical plane, he has a
>mage or two - or elementals or whatever - hovering around him, ready to
>frag anything that tries to screw with him astrally.

I always make my cyberzombies with astral static (on top of their magic
resistance) and astral sense woven into them.

>That's how I'd do it, anyway. When you're talking the tens of millions
>of nuyen required to create a zombie, hiring mages is petty cash.
>
>*Doc' replaces his head with a cyberass...*

That cracks me up. :-)

Chris

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Fri, 30 Apr 1999 05:02:53 -0500

Message no. 13 :I don't think so, Chris - although Mongoose is technically incorrect
:(the requirement to be able to engage in astral combat is to be
:astrally ACTIVE, not to astrally perceive - although in most cases,
:they're one and the same).

I specified that astral perception (in addition to an astral presence)
was needed to engage in astral combat because there are cases when you can
see (or locate) an astral being (as when it is "manifest" but not
"materialized", or if you have astral sense, a detect magic spell, are using
FAB, or if the astral being travels through your body) and you should be
able to attack it (in this situation, you'd have to be using killing hands
or an active weapon focus) but still can not if you are not using astral
perception (or projection).
Indeed, the line is a pretty fine one, and It may be it is your lack of
astral presence that stops your killing hands or weapon focus from working
in astral combat, but it is my feeling that you must be able to actively
view the astral plane to engage in astral combat. Note that foci and wards
can indeed engage in "astral combat", but this is (in SR3) a very different
procedure than "astral melee", which is what an astral mages attacks on a
cyberzombie would be; I was specifically referring to the that sort, and not
the "combat" that unintelligent astral forms engage in, which is more of an
astral effect than an actual sort of combat.

Mongoose

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:52:13 EDT

Message no. 14 In a message dated 4/30/1999 7:24:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu writes:

> It was my understanding that CZ's were not dual natured nor
> astrally active themselves. However the large amount of quickened
> spells and anchorings and all the other bad mojo around them made
> prime targets for mages (thus the need to hire mages/elementals, to
> protect the CZ. So you cannot actually physically harm the CZ's body
> through the astral spells, however if the astral spells are dispelled
> then the CZ is effectively dead.

....and due to the abstract nature of that stuff, one doesn't actually know
what the "force" of those anchorings/quickenings/major mojo thingies are that
are holdling together a CZ.

I do recall a House Rule we had concerning the "force" of the cybermantic
ritual being equal to that annoying "modifier" to hit them. Binder once
tripped that energy point in much the same way that one would an Anchoring
and temporarily "turned him off". We made the comment about it being like
the "Torpor States" of the Bugs in the CCZ after the Cermak Blast.

-K

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:30:12 EDT

Message no. 15 In a message dated 4/30/1999 12:42:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> Indeed, the line is a pretty fine one, and It may be it is your lack of
> astral presence that stops your killing hands or weapon focus from working
> in astral combat, but it is my feeling that you must be able to actively
> view the astral plane to engage in astral combat. Note that foci and wards
> can indeed engage in "astral combat", but this is (in SR3) a very
different
> procedure than "astral melee", which is what an astral mages attacks on a
> cyberzombie would be; I was specifically referring to the that sort, and
not
> the "combat" that unintelligent astral forms engage in, which is more of
an
> astral effect than an actual sort of combat.

Actually, something that has occurred to me while reading these threads...the
idea of "bumping into one another" in the astral plane seems to be completely
beyond consideration.

For instance, in "physical world fights", anything can become a potential
weapon (chairs, the wall, the floor, etc...). But, the idea of having these
kind of constraints done seem to be considered in SR (any version). Me, I
like the idea of two projecting magicians getting into a *slamfest* while
trapped inside some kind of restricted space (getting into a fight with a
spirit that was trying to hide in a govi once comes to my immediate mind for
instance).

Any ideas???

-K

From:	Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Sat, 01 May 1999 14:28:43 +1000

Message no. 16 At 06:30 30/04/99 -0400, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>For instance, in "physical world fights", anything can become a potential
>weapon (chairs, the wall, the floor, etc...). But, the idea of having these
>kind of constraints done seem to be considered in SR (any version). Me, I
>like the idea of two projecting magicians getting into a *slamfest* while
>trapped inside some kind of restricted space (getting into a fight with a
>spirit that was trying to hide in a govi once comes to my immediate mind for
>instance).
>
>Any ideas???

Grab a watcher and .... pillow fight!

Chris

From:	Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Sat, 01 May 1999 14:42:14 +1000

Message no. 17 At 05:02 30/04/99 -0500, Mongoose wrote:
> I specified that astral perception (in addition to an astral presence)
>was needed to engage in astral combat because there are cases when you can
>see (or locate) an astral being (as when it is "manifest" but not
>"materialized", or if you have astral sense, a detect magic spell, are using
>FAB, or if the astral being travels through your body) and you should be
>able to attack it (in this situation, you'd have to be using killing hands
>or an active weapon focus) but still can not if you are not using astral
>perception (or projection).
> Indeed, the line is a pretty fine one, and It may be it is your lack of
>astral presence that stops your killing hands or weapon focus from working
>in astral combat, but it is my feeling that you must be able to actively
>view the astral plane to engage in astral combat. Note that foci and wards

Although the rules only talk about "astrally perceiving" physical
characters engaging in astral melee combat, I cannot see why a non-astrally
perceiving cyberzombie or anyone with an active weapon focus (or any dual
natured instrument) but not astrally perceiving, could not participate in
astral melee combat. They'd suffer the +8 to target numbers (as happens when an
invisible opponent engages the character in physical melee combat) but I'd
still give them the option.

Chris

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:08:15 -0800

Message no. 18 Cyberzombies without any bioware have a Body Index of zero, correct?

If the above cyberzombie has an Essence of less than -3, is he (it?) in a
constant state of overstress?

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From:	Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:34:52 -0600 (CST)

Message no. 19 Today, dghost@****.com spoke on Cyberzombies:

> Cyberzombies without any bioware have a Body Index of zero, correct?

> If the above cyberzombie has an Essence of less than -3, is he (it?) in a
> constant state of overstress?

Don't have the book, but I would *definately* say so.

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:28:52 -0600

Message no. 20 :Cyberzombies without any bioware have a Body Index of zero, correct?

Yes. Well, in as much as he'd have a bio index at all.

:If the above cyberzombie has an Essence of less than -3, is he (it?) in a
:constant state of overstress?

Well, 0 is greater than some negative number, but I don't think that was the
intention of the "Exessive Bioware Drawbacks" rule. On the other hand, its
an interesting additional "Deep Cybermancy" drawback. Cyberzombies past -3
essence are major freaks of magic and technology anyhow...

Mongoose

From:	Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Tue, 07 Dec 1999 23:09:56 -0400

Message no. 21 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Da Twink Daddy."
] > Cyberzombies without any bioware have a Body Index of zero, correct?
]
] > If the above cyberzombie has an Essence of less than -3, is he (it?) in a
] > constant state of overstress?
]
] Don't have the book, but I would *definately* say so.

Cyberzombies have enough problems...leave 'em alone!

-Boondocker

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Cyberzombies
Date:	Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:17:16 +0100

Message no. 22 According to dghost@****.com, at 13:08 on 7 Dec 99, the word on the street
was...

> Cyberzombies without any bioware have a Body Index of zero, correct?
>
> If the above cyberzombie has an Essence of less than -3, is he (it?) in a
> constant state of overstress?

It looks like it. M&M only mentions the upper limit of 9 Essence Index,
not a lower limit. Still, IMHO there should be a limit to the bottom end
of the scale as well, to represent that a cyberzombie will always have
some flesh parts left (internal organs, brain, and ... well, that's about
it, I guess :) Perhaps an Essence Index of 3 is the minimum possible?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer