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Message no. 1
From: Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
Subject: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 15:00:53 -0500
I don't own the Grimoire... I've read it once.. hated the damn thing. But
while reading Bug City, I came across in the stats in the back:

Attacks : Skills = Reaction

Does this mean that say if our favorite wasp spirit has a reaction of I
don't know.. ohh.. 20 something. Then that wasp spirit has a 20 something
skill to attack with? Does that mean I have to roll 20 dice? It better
not.. I already hate rolling more than five dice..

fd
Message no. 2
From: "Brian W. Allison" <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 15:21:56 -0500
On Thu, 26 Dec 1996, Forbidden Delirium wrote:

> I don't own the Grimoire... I've read it once.. hated the damn thing. But
> while reading Bug City, I came across in the stats in the back:
>
> Attacks : Skills = Reaction
>
> Does this mean that say if our favorite wasp spirit has a reaction of I
> don't know.. ohh.. 20 something. Then that wasp spirit has a 20 something
> skill to attack with? Does that mean I have to roll 20 dice? It better


Exactly. If the Wasp has a Reaction of 20 - and it's not too hard to
imagine - then it attacks as if it has a skill of 20.


Wasps are *not* pushovers.



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
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Message no. 3
From: Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 16:39:40 -0500
> Exactly. If the Wasp has a Reaction of 20 - and it's not too hard to
>imagine - then it attacks as if it has a skill of 20.
> Wasps are *not* pushovers.

Shit.. I guess not. Damn.. well.. whew.. i hope my players are good enough
for this.. otherwise i'll probably need new players.

fd, nuff said.
Message no. 4
From: "Brian W. Allison" <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 16:53:53 -0500
On Thu, 26 Dec 1996, Forbidden Delirium wrote:

> > Exactly. If the Wasp has a Reaction of 20 - and it's not too hard to
> >imagine - then it attacks as if it has a skill of 20.
> > Wasps are *not* pushovers.
>
> Shit.. I guess not. Damn.. well.. whew.. i hope my players are good enough
> for this.. otherwise i'll probably need new players.

I once hit a group of 3 mages with a single Wasp spirit.

It gave one a Deadly, Seriously injured another, and and was about to
hit the third before any of them got to go.

However, the fastest of them was also the Wolf shaman who had Spirit
Bold at force 9, exclusive, with expendible fetish.

Effective force 13, with his drain being a measily 3S drain.

Of course, his T#s were the Wasp's Force (8) and its T# to resist were
the effectife force of the spell (13).

Wolf rolled 22 dice (Effect 13 force, +2 Wolf, +7 from Magic Pool), Wasp
rolled 8 dice.

Guess who died? (Can we say.... "Bzzzz *splat!*"?)



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 5
From: "Kevin P. Feathers" <Shd0wW0lf@***.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:50:48 -0500
In a message dated 96-12-26 15:06:55 EST, fd wrote:

<<
Does this mean that say if our favorite wasp spirit has a reaction
of I
don't know.. ohh.. 20 something. Then that wasp spirit has a 20 something
skill to attack with? Does that mean I have to roll 20 dice? It better
not.. I already hate rolling more than five dice..

fd >>
Well, I dont know if that is right or not, BUT if are goin to gm SR you
better get used to rolling more dice then five....


Shd0wW0lf


.....Just my two nuyens worth.....
Message no. 6
From: Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:56:43 -0500
> Well, I dont know if that is right or not, BUT if are goin to gm SR you
>better get used to rolling more dice then five....

Well, I've actually been running Shadowrun for several years. I just
eventually learned to hate rolling a lot of dice.. sure it scares the hell
out of the players when I ask them for more dice.. but usually these days
if it isn't THAT important I'll just assign a difficulty number and
depending on the task I'll roll one dice. I like that much better. I
actually like the Earthdawn step system more than the Shadowrun 20+ d6
system.. then again, the Earthdawn GMs I know don't like the step system..
they like something else.. they refuse to tell me what they like though.
Damn them.. damn them all!

fd
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:58:43 +0100
Forbidden Delirium said on 16:39/26 Dec 96...

> Shit.. I guess not. Damn.. well.. whew.. i hope my players are good enough
> for this.. otherwise i'll probably need new players.

You could always give them a little time to learn about the bug(ger)s --
let them encounter a small group made up of Force 1-3 true form spirits,
which are relatively easy to deal with (compared to Force 6+ ones, anyway :)
and allow them to find out how (and how not) to deal with them. Such an
encounter also gives you the chance to learn what your players can cope
with, and what will overwhelm them.

Most insect spirits, BTW, will be flesh forms instead of true forms. Flesh
forms are generally easy enough to deal with, because they can't go astral
andhave no armor except when they wear body armor.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Then you get to the bottom and you do it again.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:58:43 +0100
Forbidden Delirium said on 15:00/26 Dec 96...

> I don't own the Grimoire... I've read it once.. hated the damn thing. But
> while reading Bug City, I came across in the stats in the back:
>
> Attacks : Skills = Reaction
>
> Does this mean that say if our favorite wasp spirit has a reaction of I
> don't know.. ohh.. 20 something. Then that wasp spirit has a 20 something
> skill to attack with? Does that mean I have to roll 20 dice? It better
> not.. I already hate rolling more than five dice..

Insect spirits are really nasty because of this high Reaction. Most of
them have Reaction = 2x Force, queens generally have Reaction = 3x Force.
That number is used to attack with, plus its Force in Threat Rating
dice.

Yes, a force 10 spirit has 30 dice to attack with, 40 if it's a queen, or
18 and 24 dice if they're "only" Force 6... Then, of course, the force 6
spirit will always have 3 actions (it has 22+1D6 for initiative), and will
also have at least 12 points armor against ranged attacks.

These are several reasons why insect spirits are bad news :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Then you get to the bottom and you do it again.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:36:24 -0000
> > Attacks : Skills = Reaction
> >
> > Does this mean that say if our favorite wasp spirit has a
reaction of I
> > don't know.. ohh.. 20 something. Then that wasp spirit has a 20
something
> > skill to attack with? Does that mean I have to roll 20 dice? It
better
>
>
> Exactly. If the Wasp has a Reaction of 20 - and it's not too hard to
> imagine - then it attacks as if it has a skill of 20.
>
>
> Wasps are *not* pushovers.

Also, don't forget to add in threat pool, which will usually equal the
spirit's force.

@>--'--,--- Loki

/>
/<
[\\\\\\(O):::<======================================-
\< Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki
\>


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Message no. 10
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:39:26 -0000
> Wolf rolled 22 dice (Effect 13 force, +2 Wolf, +7 from Magic Pool),
Wasp
> rolled 8 dice.
>
> Guess who died? (Can we say.... "Bzzzz *splat!*"?)
>
>
>
> Brian W. Allison

I usually allow spirits and elemantals to add in their threat rating dice
when rolling to resist spells, they are made out of the ethereal fabric of
magic afterall... ;o)

It may not have changed much here, but the Wasp would've been rolling 16
dice to resist. (Threat Rating = Force)

@>--'--,--- Loki

/>
/<
[\\\\\\(O):::<======================================-
\< Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki
\>


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Message no. 11
From: Craig J Wilhelm <craigwjr@****.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:22:02 EST
On Thu, 26 Dec 1996 15:00:53 -0500 Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
writes:
> I don't own the Grimoire... I've read it once.. hated the damn
>thing. But
>while reading Bug City, I came across in the stats in the back:
>
> Attacks : Skills = Reaction
>
> Does this mean that say if our favorite wasp spirit has a
>reaction of I
>don't know.. ohh.. 20 something. Then that wasp spirit has a 20
>something
>skill to attack with? Does that mean I have to roll 20 dice? It
>better
>not.. I already hate rolling more than five dice..
>
>fd
>

No, no, no...Use the spirits base reaction (i.e:forceX2 for a male&female
true form wasp spirit, X3 for queens) for their skill.
Using a force 6 male true form wasp spirit as an example: Damage would be
9M, using 12 dice plus whatever threat rating you assign them for their
skill. However I personally wouldn't add the Manifest or Astral reaction
bonus (10 and 20 respectively) to the skill. No non-munchkin PC could
survive a 9M attack from something with a skill of 22 or 32 dice, unless
that PC is wearing Military Grade armor or Gel packed Heavy Security
Armor, and getting either of those is no walk in the park.

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Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:38:42 -0700
Craig J Wilhelm wrote:
|
| No, no, no...Use the spirits base reaction (i.e:forceX2 for a male&female
| true form wasp spirit, X3 for queens) for their skill.
| Using a force 6 male true form wasp spirit as an example: Damage would be
| 9M, using 12 dice plus whatever threat rating you assign them for their
| skill. However I personally wouldn't add the Manifest or Astral reaction
| bonus (10 and 20 respectively) to the skill. No non-munchkin PC could
| survive a 9M attack from something with a skill of 22 or 32 dice, unless
| that PC is wearing Military Grade armor or Gel packed Heavy Security
| Armor, and getting either of those is no walk in the park.

If they were that easy to kill (well, easier anyway) then
the army would have taken out the Chicago Hive a long time
ago. But with access to high-powered weapons and military
grade armor, the best they can do is hold a defensive
line. I'm pretty sure you use a spirit's *modified*
reaction.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 13
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:46:34 -0700
> If they were that easy to kill (well, easier anyway) then
> the army would have taken out the Chicago Hive a long time
> ago. But with access to high-powered weapons and military
> grade armor, the best they can do is hold a defensive
> line. I'm pretty sure you use a spirit's *modified*
> reaction.
>

I disagree seeing as the military Joe's have to use their willpower just to
shoot the little bastards. They aren't shadowrunners after all the average
human only has a willpower of 3...and no real pools to speak of except a
little tiny threat pool. Also the spirits will be moving much faster than
the soldiers could ever dream except for special forces teams and even that
is pushing it.

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 14
From: "Brian W. Allison" <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:00:54 -0500
On Fri, 27 Dec 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> If they were that easy to kill (well, easier anyway) then
> the army would have taken out the Chicago Hive a long time
> ago. But with access to high-powered weapons and military
> grade armor, the best they can do is hold a defensive
> line. I'm pretty sure you use a spirit's *modified*
> reaction.

You forget that when attacking Manifest Spirits (SRII p 142):

- They get armor equal to 2xForce (both Ballistic and Impact)
- Attacks w/o Magic use the Willpower instead of the normal Skill of hte
attacker. An active Weapon Focus uses the Attackers Skill + Rating as the
Skill.
- Attacks w/o Magic do *NOT* get Combat Dice.



The 'Spirit Initiative' paragraph (also SRII p.142) does indicate that
their Reaction is related to their force. It then uses conflicting
terminology on the +10/+20 bonus - in one sentence suggeesting it's added
to their Reaction and in another to their Initiative.
With their invulnerabilities, and with the inability of people to use
Combat Pool against them, I think they're pretty tough already. That, and
the fact that it just seems dumb to base their Rection on their state of
manifestation, tells me to make it an Initiative Bonus, not a Reaction
Bonus.


So they're no pushovers as they are.


UCAS forces were trying to use firearms, explosions, and other things
that are useless against spirits. If you sent the army in with long poles
and high Willpowers... oh - a 6 isn't going to do much. Well if you sent
them in with Magical Weapons! Oh... it takes a lot of karma to bond to a
Weapon, and you have to be Magically Active....

Seems that Spirits are pretty safe from Mundanes. I doubt that UCAS is
going to suddenly 'draft' a lot of mages to hit the spirits with spells,
since they can't guarantee any kind of protection if a lot of the insects
decide to swarm.

Lucky they're dormant.....



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:26:00 -0700
Brian W. Allison wrote:
|
| On Fri, 27 Dec 1996, David Buehrer wrote:
|
| > If they were that easy to kill (well, easier anyway) then
| > the army would have taken out the Chicago Hive a long time
| > ago. But with access to high-powered weapons and military
| > grade armor, the best they can do is hold a defensive
| > line. I'm pretty sure you use a spirit's *modified*
| > reaction.
|
| You forget that when attacking Manifest Spirits (SRII p 142):

Doh! <sheepishly slinks away from this thread>

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 16
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:50:06 +0000
| UCAS forces were trying to use firearms, explosions, and other things
|that are useless against spirits. If you sent the army in with long poles
|and high Willpowers... oh - a 6 isn't going to do much. Well if you sent
|them in with Magical Weapons! Oh... it takes a lot of karma to bond to a
|Weapon, and you have to be Magically Active....
|
| Seems that Spirits are pretty safe from Mundanes. I doubt that UCAS is
|going to suddenly 'draft' a lot of mages to hit the spirits with spells,
|since they can't guarantee any kind of protection if a lot of the insects
|decide to swarm.
|
| Lucky they're dormant.....

Which they won't be for long if you suddenly draft in a bunch of mages....

Even a spell lock is enough to rouse them.....

(As is any astral presence....)

((And I don't even own the book.... I just flicked though it in a shop a few
months ago.....))


spike-the-using-too-many-brackets-mage-turned-gm....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:45:05 +0000
In message <199612272139.OAA01529@***.netzone.com>, Caric
>I disagree seeing as the military Joe's have to use their willpower just to
>shoot the little bastards. They aren't shadowrunners after all the average
>human only has a willpower of 3...and no real pools to speak of except a
>little tiny threat pool. Also the spirits will be moving much faster than
>the soldiers could ever dream except for special forces teams and even that
>is pushing it.

Beg to differ... by the time you train an infantryman and buy his
equipment and transport, the marginal cost of also giving him a set of
Boosted-III is pretty low, but the benefits are worth it.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 18
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:59:08 -0700
> Beg to differ... by the time you train an infantryman and buy his
> equipment and transport, the marginal cost of also giving him a set of
> Boosted-III is pretty low, but the benefits are worth it.
>
Agreed, but how many sourcebooks have you read where they actually put
cyber of that caliber into there grunts? They should but the often times
don't. Even witht the boosted III though the average grunt will have an
average initiative (emphasis on average) of about 13. That means that even
a force 1 true spirit will still be going first having an average
initiative of 14. That's not even taking into account any penalties due to
armor if they are wearing heavy military armor.

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:26:57 +0000
In message <199612272251.PAA06996@***.netzone.com>, Caric
<caric@*******.COM> writes
>> Beg to differ... by the time you train an infantryman and buy his
>> equipment and transport, the marginal cost of also giving him a set of
>> Boosted-III is pretty low, but the benefits are worth it.
>>
>Agreed, but how many sourcebooks have you read where they actually put
>cyber of that caliber into there grunts? They should but the often times
>don't.

Yeah, well, just because the sourcebooks don't equip troops properly is
no reason for me to be so negligent :)

More seriously, when you start running the numbers on this stuff, you
get some interesting conclusions.

>Even witht the boosted III though the average grunt will have an
>average initiative (emphasis on average) of about 13. That means that even
>a force 1 true spirit will still be going first having an average
>initiative of 14. That's not even taking into account any penalties due to
>armor if they are wearing heavy military armor.

But they do have the advantage, in heavy armour, that you need pretty
strong spirits to actually get into that armour. Okay, the blanket
"hardened armour protects completely" goes by the board if a dozen Ant
spirits pull you over and start chewing through the joints, but it
should help a lot.

Actually, full mil-spec and flamethrowers would be a useful approach.
I'd say flamers would hurt even spirits pretty badly, it's an elemental
attack and insects don't do well with fire.

Or we could just set up a big flarestack and watch all the Moth spirits
fly into it :)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 11:54:37 +0100
Craig J Wilhelm said on 15:22/27 Dec 96...

> However I personally wouldn't add the Manifest or Astral reaction
> bonus (10 and 20 respectively) to the skill.

That +10/+20 isn't added to Reaction, it's added to initiative. That's a
major difference there, and not just for the number of dice to attack
with. You're right that adding it to Reaction would make all spirits way
too powerful.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It snowed!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 21
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 11:14:44 EST
On Sun, 29 Dec 1996 20:35:44 -0500 Jonathan Hurley
<jhurley1@************.EDU> writes:
<snipping myself>
>My argument for not giving spirits threat rating is that the PC's
>spirits
>don't have them.
Okay. If I were going to do that, I don't think I'd allow the PC's their
dice pools, either, but that's only my opinion, and need only be taken
with a grain of salt (of whatever size or type you feel appropriate:)
>And I don't think either side *needs* them. My philosophy in recent
>years
>has become this: no matter how much I up the numbers on solitary
>opponents,
>the PCs will beat them (having access to Karma pool, multiple minds,
>etc.)
>So I just gang up on them. I don't use force 12 spirits. I use three
>force
>5 spirits. Instead of 5 guards with decent ware, I use 15 with little
>to no
>ware.
>
>It works a lot better, and lets me manage encounters with a much finer
>grain.
>
If it works, it works. And that's all that matters.

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
Message no. 22
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:36:29 +0000
On 26 Dec 96 at 15:21, Brian W. Allison wrote:
[snip - Spirits]
> > Attacks : Skills = Reaction
> >
> > Does this mean that say if our favorite wasp spirit has a reaction of I
> > don't know.. ohh.. 20 something. Then that wasp spirit has a 20 something
> > skill to attack with? Does that mean I have to roll 20 dice? It better

> Exactly. If the Wasp has a Reaction of 20 - and it's not too hard to
> imagine - then it attacks as if it has a skill of 20.
That would be about lvl 10 for the spirit. I think _you_ were talkin' about
Initiative, not reaction. Spirits get a +20 Initiative-bonus in astral, and a
+10 Initiative-bonus physically. But that is _initiative_, not Reaction.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 23
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:15:30 -0700
> >Agreed, but how many sourcebooks have you read where they actually put
> >cyber of that caliber into there grunts? They should but the often
times
> >don't.
>
> Yeah, well, just because the sourcebooks don't equip troops properly is
> no reason for me to be so negligent :)

I completely agree...we do this all the time. =)

> More seriously, when you start running the numbers on this stuff, you
> get some interesting conclusions.
>
> >Even witht the boosted III though the average grunt will have an
> >average initiative (emphasis on average) of about 13. That means that
even
> >a force 1 true spirit will still be going first having an average
> >initiative of 14. That's not even taking into account any penalties due
to
> >armor if they are wearing heavy military armor.
>
> But they do have the advantage, in heavy armour, that you need pretty
> strong spirits to actually get into that armour. Okay, the blanket
> "hardened armour protects completely" goes by the board if a dozen Ant
> spirits pull you over and start chewing through the joints, but it
> should help a lot.

True, but the soldiers will still be slower than the spirits...that was the
point I was trying to make. The armor definately will help them.


> Actually, full mil-spec and flamethrowers would be a useful approach.
> I'd say flamers would hurt even spirits pretty badly, it's an elemental
> attack and insects don't do well with fire.

Agreed fire is cool...unfortunately still having to use the willpower
sucks.


> Or we could just set up a big flarestack and watch all the Moth spirits
> fly into it :)

Couldn't hurt...ya never know ;)


~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 24
From: Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:25:01 U
Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>CZ Attack Questions

>Agreed fire is cool...unfortunately still having to use the willpower =
sucks.

I always thought it was hot :-)
Message no. 25
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:50:32 -0700
>Agreed fire is cool...unfortunately still having to use the willpower
sucks.

I always thought it was hot :-)
----------


Steve...don't make me come over there <raising an eyebrow>

;p~~


~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 26
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 16:55:00 -0500
At 02:46 PM 12/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
>> If they were that easy to kill (well, easier anyway) then
>> the army would have taken out the Chicago Hive a long time
>> ago. But with access to high-powered weapons and military
>> grade armor, the best they can do is hold a defensive
>> line. I'm pretty sure you use a spirit's *modified*
>> reaction.
>>
>
>I disagree seeing as the military Joe's have to use their willpower just to
>shoot the little bastards. They aren't shadowrunners after all the average
>human only has a willpower of 3...and no real pools to speak of except a
>little tiny threat pool. Also the spirits will be moving much faster than
>the soldiers could ever dream except for special forces teams and even that
>is pushing it.
>
I don't know about that, Caric... Remember, the keys to beating the bugs
(ie, willpower) are fairly widely known by now. After all, it's been a
couple years since the CZ went into effect. I'm sure the military would
have gone out of their way to staff the CZ wall with soldiers with high
willpower. PLus, there are quite a few mages staffing the wall, and
probably a good number of phys-ads with Astral perception and killing hands.

The military probably went out of it's way to hire people who could handle
the bugs, and train them to do it effectively. After all, I think that the
CZ situation is as much political these days as it is physical. If the UCAS
government can't find a way to deal with teh bugs, or even contain them
effectively, I have the feeling it may crumble. The government isn't all
that stable in 2057 as it is, and he whole Dunkie Assasination has made it
even less so...

Bull

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Ooooohhhhhhh!"
-Me, after seeing the trailers for the Star
Wars Special Editions in the theater.
Message no. 27
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: CZ Attack Questions
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:06:17 -0700
> I don't know about that, Caric... Remember, the keys to beating the bugs
> (ie, willpower) are fairly widely known by now. After all, it's been a
> couple years since the CZ went into effect. I'm sure the military would
> have gone out of their way to staff the CZ wall with soldiers with high
> willpower. PLus, there are quite a few mages staffing the wall, and
> probably a good number of phys-ads with Astral perception and killing
hands.
>
Possibly, but how can you count on the military drafting a bunch of guys
with above average willpowers? Granted they will have powerful mages and
some guys that are willpowery :), but not enough to eliminate all of the
bugs from the CZ. Contain them possibly, but not kill them all which was
the original question...why doesn't this kick ass military power just kill
all the bugs...I said 'cuz they can't do it without a huge giant cluster
f*ck.

> The military probably went out of it's way to hire people who could
handle
> the bugs, and train them to do it effectively. After all, I think that
the
> CZ situation is as much political these days as it is physical. If the
UCAS
> government can't find a way to deal with teh bugs, or even contain them
> effectively, I have the feeling it may crumble. The government isn't all
> that stable in 2057 as it is, and he whole Dunkie Assasination has made
it
> even less so...

Definately political once the word got out. They need a way to effectively
kill the bugs, but an all out assault isn't the answer IMHO. Bugs are
nasty.


> Bull


Caric-the-hoping-there's-only-one-Bull-also-shaman ;)

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