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Message no. 1
From: kimgoyret@*****.es (Jong-Won Kim)
Subject: D20 sucks (was SR Complicated?)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:00:28 -0500 (CDT)
*******
Fecha: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:55:33 -0500
De: "JediEye" <JediEye@**.rr.com>
A: "'Shadowrun Discussion'"
<shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Asunto: RE: all's quiet

-----------------
Yeah, I think the server's down. ;)

Oh well, to pull a random argument out of my ass.
There's been some discussion on IRC and DSF about
wether the SR system is too complicated and maybe we
should convert to D20 to bring in more players.

This one is always good for a few laughs, anyone want
to bite?

-----------------

Of course, you know you're just baiting for trouble
right?

Coming from a current player of D20 (my DM loves D&D
so that's what we play) here's my perspective. D20 is
easy to play and easy to run when run properly.
That's about its only advantage though. After nearly
3
years I find myself tremendously bored with the whole
thing.
Characters almost always wind up being the same, the
class based system only promotes that whole concept,
and the system itself is dull as hell. No creativity
involved. Moreover, get a rules lawyer (as in my
current DM) and the whole concept that the game is
easy also gets tossed out the window. There are rules
in nearly every nook and cranny of the book, rules
that contradict, rules that are horribly broken, and
rules that just don't make sense. Moreover, the whole
D20 system is built off of combat, which is evidenced
by the fact that it's a more-or-less tactical
combat game built into a RPG shell.

Shadowrun may be more complicated, but one advantage
I've discovered is that is DISCOURAGES people from
getting into combat, which as we all know, good
Shadowrunners want to do anyway. Besides, as has been
evidenced time and time again, it's the world that
feeds the game, not necessarily the rules. Good
worlds seem to get a loyal following and do well,
which is why I continue to follow Shadowrun even
though I don't get to play as much as I'd like.

D20 is brings in the masses of Sheep that want to play
a game that's been labeled as "simple."

Just my two cents though, take as you want.
*****

Amen brother, I agree with you.

D20 is better than the old AD&D 2E (mostly), but it
still remains a dull. combat orientated system. worse
yet, it is too simple as a combat system. No real
options, no depth.

I agree that you can bring people into RPGs with D20,
but you can also do that with SR, without turning them
into munchkins (something that D20 encourages). IMHO,
SR is a much better system that D20 at all levels. And
you get much more freedom than with the horrible
class-based system.

D20 may have spread like the plague, but that doesn't
mean it is better. Hey, it IS a plague!

Saludos,
Jong-Won Kim

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Message no. 2
From: alex.case@*******.net (Alex Case)
Subject: D20 sucks (was SR Complicated?)
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 20:16:44 -0700
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At 07:00 PM 4/9/03 -0500, you wrote:
>agree that you can bring people into RPGs with D20,
>but you can also do that with SR, without turning them
>into munchkins (something that D20 encourages). IMHO,
>SR is a much better system that D20 at all levels. And
>you get much more freedom than with the horrible
>class-based system.
>
>D20 may have spread like the plague, but that doesn't
>mean it is better. Hey, it IS a plague!

I disagree about it being a Plague. There are far, far, worse gaming
systems for players to get into (*cough* Palladium *cough*). D20 doesn't
encourage Munchkins any more than any other Role Playing system. The things
it takes for a character to succeed for any game is based on the game.
Shadowrun tactics wouldn't necessarily work in D&D and vice versa, but does
that make D&D a bad game? No, because Shadowrun Tactics wouldn't
necessarily work in, say, Call of Cthulhu either. They'd work in Feng Shui,
but it wouldn't make the game as interesting, because the game is as much
smooth-talking and stealth as it is kicking ass and looking cool doing it.

As it is, IMHO, Feng Shui is probably the best system for beginners,
because it's simple, cinematic, but it would introduce the players to
elements of Role Playing gradually. A character in a John Woo film doesn't
need hours of exposition or Role Playing to show how he or she gets his or
her guns, just maybe a short scene (ala "The Killer" or "Black
Mask"*.) But
that doesn't stop the GM to encourage Role Play between the characters so
there is a chemistry between them as well as Role Playing to get information.

*Yes, "Black Mask" isn't a John Woo film, but the "Who'd we declare war
on?" scene would fall into the category of the kind of scenes I'm trying to
describe.

"It is written that it is better to burn a single city than to curse the
darkness"
-From "The Furies" By Roger Zelazny

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