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From:	DragonC147@*.com DragonC147@*.com
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:26:56 EST

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Hi all,

I've been thinking about the damage ratings for different weapons. My
question is; does anyone have a new damage ratings that would be more
realistic?

for example:
SMG's do from 6M to 7M even though they fire the exact same ammo as the Heavy
Pistols, 9M, and have a longer barrel?
Assault rifles, .223's do 8M, and light sporting rifles firing the same or
close caliber do 7S.
Sniping Rifles: 14S-14D, what is the big difference between a sniping rifle,
usually a .30-06 or .308 and sporting rifles that fire 7mm, .308, or .30-06?
9S to 14S is a big jump.

I know that fasa has tried to make it so that some weapons don't become too
powerful, but it seems in doing so they made everything either way under
powered, or too high powered. Any thoughts?

Dragon Claw

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<HTML>Hi all,
 
 I've been thinking about the damage ratings for different weapons.  My
 question is; does anyone have a new damage ratings that would be more
 realistic?
 
 for example:
 SMG's do from 6M to 7M even though they fire the exact same ammo as the Heavy
 Pistols, 9M, and have a longer barrel?  
 Assault rifles, .223's do 8M, and light sporting rifles firing the same or
 close caliber do 7S.
 Sniping Rifles: 14S-14D, what is the big difference between a sniping rifle,
 usually a .30-06 or .308 and sporting rifles that fire 7mm, .308, or .30-06?
  9S to 14S is a big jump.
 
 I know that fasa has tried to make it so that some weapons don't become too
 powerful, but it seems in doing so they made everything either way under
 powered, or too high powered.  Any thoughts?
 
 Dragon Claw</HTML>

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From:	Fredrik Holmqvist pagan@*******.swipnet.se
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:38:02 +0100

Message no. 2 At 10:26 2000-11-27 EST, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
> My
>question is; does anyone have a new damage ratings that would be more
>realistic?
>
>for example:
>SMG's do from 6M to 7M even though they fire the exact same ammo as the
Heavy
>
>Assault rifles, .223's do 8M, and light sporting rifles firing the same or
>close caliber do 7S.
>Sniping Rifles: 14S-14D, what is the big difference between a sniping rifle,
>
>9S to 14S is a big jump.
>
>I know that fasa has tried to make it so that some weapons don't become too
>powerful, but it seems in doing so they made everything either way under
> Any thoughts?

You think Fasa was underpowering?? Did you ever play the second ed
Twillight 2000? Talk about underpowering! :o)
You could hit somebody in the head with a handgun and they would probably
not even feel it...

/Honken

#define homepage http://home.swipnet.se/~w-60508/index.html

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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SRGC v0.22 SR1+ SR2+++ SR3++ h b+++ B? UB++ IE++ RN- W+ dk sa+ ma+++
ad++ ri mc-- rk- m+ gm+ M-- P-

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:13:37 +0100

Message no. 3 According to DragonC147@***.com, on Mon, 27 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> I've been thinking about the damage ratings for different weapons. My
> question is; does anyone have a new damage ratings that would be more
> realistic?

The best solution is not to try and tie damage codes to calibers. If you
just think of the thing as a sport rifle and don't worry/care about
calibers at all, it won't make sense but it also won't bother you as much :)

> for example:
> SMG's do from 6M to 7M even though they fire the exact same ammo as the Heavy
> Pistols, 9M, and have a longer barrel?

The heavy pistols thing stems from SR1, when light pistols did 3M2 and
heavy pistols 4M2 (equivalent to 3M and 4M these days, but armor didn't
reduce the Power Level for the resistance test). This difference was too
small so they basically upped heavy pistols to 6M2. For SR2, it looks like
they simply added 2 or 3 to most Power Levels to allow for the new rule
that armor reduced the TN, so we ended up with 9M heavy pistols and 6M/7M
SMGs (which used to do 4M3 or 5M3).

> I know that fasa has tried to make it so that some weapons don't become too
> powerful, but it seems in doing so they made everything either way under
> powered, or too high powered. Any thoughts?

IMHO, the best way to get things to make reasonable sense is to lower the
Power of heavy pistols by 3, so that 9M becomes 6M. This is a quick and
easy fix, though not to everyone's liking -- those who see heavy pistols as
.357 Magnum and up won't like it; those, like me, who feel heavy pistols
fire the same ammo as SMGs will have a lot less trouble with it, though.

As for the sport rifle, LMG, etc. problems, simply say that they fire a
different type of ammo than they may appear to. If you insist on
saying assault rifles fire 5.56x45 mm, maybe LMGs use 9x39 mm?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:19:14 -0800

Message no. 4 .----- Original Message -----
.From: DragonC147@***.com
.
.I've been thinking about the damage ratings for different weapons. My
.question is; does anyone have a new damage ratings that would be more
.realistic?
.
.for example:
.SMG's do from 6M to 7M even though they fire the exact same ammo as the
Heavy
.Pistols, 9M, and have a longer barrel?

Hmm... I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents here, even though I'm probably not a
good one to talk about ammo and weapons (I used to do pistol shooting for a
good 7 years or so, but stopped about 12 years ago)

Anyhow... some thoughts when I first read this part:
1) Not all SMGs are "rifle-like" weapons, like the HK227 is
2) If you compare normal pistols to SMGs (6L to 7M damage codes) instead of
Heavy pistols to SMGs (9M to 7M) don't the damage codes look abit closer?
Maybe that +1 power level is from those previously mentioned barrels?
3) Don't most SMGs and pistols fire 9mm ammo, whereas heavy pistols fire
11.5mm ammo?
4) Don't SMGs have a higher muzzle velocity and produce more muzzle energy
than pistols do? Wouldn't that have a pistol "rip a bigger hole" rather
than "fire on through" a target?

((SNIP THE STUFF ABOUT RIFLES OUT, NEVER FIRED OR USED THEM, CAN'T COMMENT))

.I know that fasa has tried to make it so that some weapons don't become too
.powerful, but it seems in doing so they made everything either way under
.powered, or too high powered. Any thoughts?

Its all just a game balance thing... some people grouse about the weapon
system... saying that the damage codes and such aren't right, or the ranges
are off, etc... that, I think, stems from the fact that so many people that
play shadowrun and contribute to this mailing list are either military or
ex-military.

I personally like to think in terms of government and economics (my field of
knowledge)... my big grouse with the Shadowrun system stems from the cost of
cyberware. Alot of people argue that they can't see why or how the military
or security forces can afford to outfit their security with heavy cyberware
(dermal armour 3, wired reflexes 3, skill wires, etc)... wheres my arguement
there is... why would the companies develop these things if the military
couldn't afford them and their only customer base was the criminal elite?

But... for the sake of game balance, Fasa made high end cyberware, magical
foci and cyberdecks astronomically priced so that they are out of the reach
of the average shadowrunner (and in turn, out of the reach of the normal
target customers for such items... security, military and law enforecement)

So to me... the weapon system is fine... it works... its balanced in the
long run, even if its not 'realistic'. Whereas, to let your players
actually buy high end items (good deck, good cyber or powerful foci) you
have to either give the item to the party or give them enough money where
they can buy it.
Problems there are... if you just "give" the item (ie: say you gave the
party (or let them find) a $1,000,000 cyberdeck... the others might expect
something similar in return). Meanwhile, if you give them the cash... you
either need to give them enough cash to buy the item and hope they pool
their money to buy it... or you need to give everybody enough money so that
when they divide it up (this is talking over the long term, btw) they have
$1,000,000 each (using the example of the deck above).

I'm not a stingy GM... but I don't like to throw that kind of money around
my games...

Augustus

From:	Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:49:29 -0500

Message no. 5 > I personally like to think in terms of government and economics
> (my field of
> knowledge)... my big grouse with the Shadowrun system stems from
> the cost of
> cyberware. Alot of people argue that they can't see why or how
> the military
> or security forces can afford to outfit their security with heavy
> cyberware
> (dermal armour 3, wired reflexes 3, skill wires, etc)... wheres
> my arguement
> there is... why would the companies develop these things if the military
> couldn't afford them and their only customer base was the criminal elite?

The main contributor of this problem is that FASA made prices for most
cyberware before they invented the Street Index system. That is, before
street index, the list price of cyber was (sort of) the street price. When
street index came out, they should have adjusted the prices of existing
items.

If you want to fix it, just do this:

1) Adjust the list price of an item by dividing it by X (where X is some
number that yields the "corporate price" you want.)

2) Multiply the street index for the item by X, leaving the new street price
the same as it was before.

3) Make new characters pay street prices.

From:	Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Tue, 28 Nov 00 01:09:42 -0500

Message no. 6 On 11/27/00 10:26 am, DragonC147@***.com said:

>Hi all,
>
>I've been thinking about the damage ratings for different weapons. My
>question is; does anyone have a new damage ratings that would be more
>realistic?
>
>for example:
>SMG's do from 6M to 7M even though they fire the exact same ammo as the
>Heavy
>Pistols, 9M, and have a longer barrel?
>Assault rifles, .223's do 8M, and light sporting rifles firing the same or
>close caliber do 7S.
>Sniping Rifles: 14S-14D, what is the big difference between a sniping rifle,
>usually a .30-06 or .308 and sporting rifles that fire 7mm, .308, or
>.30-06?
>9S to 14S is a big jump.
>

One thing you are confusing here is the calibre of the round with the
Power of the Round. Calibre compaires more to damage code. So that all HP
Rounds cause M Damage, AR Rounds (I'm assuming that the game assumes that
AR's all went to the lighter 5.56 and similar rounds) cause M Damage, all
LP and HOP (Hold Out Pistol) Rounds cause L Damage, etc.

Power is a bit more esoteric, it seems to mostly come from a combination
of the accuracy and Muzzle Velocity of the weapon.

Think of it this way, The success roll on the shot determines how close
the shooter was to his desired point of aim when he pulled the trigger.
At this point there are only a few remaining factors left that will
determine how clean of a hit he gets.

1) Atmospheric interference (wind and such) - A higher Muzzle Velocity
and shape/spin of the round reduces these effects. These are created as
much by the gun as by the round.

2) Obsticals that can cause a deflection (ie armor or barriers) - Again
Muzzle Velocity and shape of the round are paramount factors in
determining how effective a round deals with these. Also in Game Terms
what effect do these factord to the the shot? they lower the Power.

3) Movement of the target - Once again it is Muzzle Velocity that is the
key (higher muzzle velocity = lower time to target = lower distance the
target can move during the time of flight)

4) The inherent accuracy of the gun (how well aligned the sights are, how
true the barrel is, recoil effects on aiming below that which adds
modifires to the to hit roll) - Here the factors all reside within the
gun in it's shape, weight, and size regardless of the round fired.

To explain the dichotomies you see with only one necessary change to the
rules and another possible one it goes like this

Light and Hold Out Pistols use the same Ammunition that causes L Damage
and comes in the following calibres .22, .22 SR, .22 LR, .25, .32, 7.56
MM, and .380(as well as a few Eastern European SMG calibres but I am not
sure of their exact sizes)

Heavy Pistols and Sub Machine Guns use the same Ammunition that causes M
Damage and comes in the following Calibres 9 MM, 10 MM, .357 Magnum, .38,
.40, .44 Magnum, and .45, and .50

Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles, and Medium Machine Guns all use the same
Ammo that causes S Damage and comes in the following calibres 7MM Mag,
.306, .308, and various 7.62 sub calibres.

Assault Rifles and Light Machine Guns use the same Ammo that causes M
damage and comes in the following calibres 4.5 MM, 5.0 MM, 5.5 MM, .223,
6 MM, 6.5 MM, and 7 MM (yes most of these are made up but I am assuming
a continued trend towards smaller higher velocity rounds for this
purpose). Here we have the one necessary departure from the rules as
listed with Light Machine guns having a Base Damage Code of only M and
not the S listed in the rules as posted.

Heavy Machine Guns and Anti Materiel Sniper Rifles use the same ammo that
causes S Damage and comes in the following calibres .385, .410, .44-40,
.454, .50/12.7 MM, and 14.5 MM

Hold Out/Light Pistols

Hold Out Pistols have a Power of 4 or 5 due to short barrels and not
enough powder charging the round proper acceleration of the round to full
speed is not allowed nor is enough spin imparted to allow for proper
stabilization. Inaccurate sights are also caused by a short barrel and
Higher than average recoil effects are caused by the guns light weight
and small size.

Light Pistols have a power of 6 or 7 with slightly longer barrels than
Hold Outs you get better Muzzle Velocity and Spin, however the rounds
still lack the necessary power to be accelerated to a decent Muzzle
Velocity. The sights while better than a Hold Outs are still not
seperated by enough to be truely accurate and again due to the light
weight and small size of the gun the Recoil effects hamper accuracy.

Heavy Pistols/SMG's

Heavy Pistols have a power of 9 or 10 with longer barrels than Light
Pistols and Heavier Powder Charges driving the rounds you get a large
increase in Muzzle Velocity. The sights are also improvments over Light
Pistols however not by a significant margin. The weapons are also heavy
and large enough to significantly reduce recoil even given the larger
Powder charges of the rounds.

Sub Machine Guns have a power of 6 or 7, while they have barrels about 2x
as long as a Heavy Pistol it does not help with the muzzle velocity as
there is an upper limit to how fast a given powder charge can drive a
round regardless of Barrel Length and Heavy Pistols already come close to
that Muzzle Velocity. The Longer Barrel as well as the typical firing
position does make the sights long enough to be usefull which helps,
however the increased rates of fire and blowback recoil used to reload
them end up with a net decrease in accuracy over Heavy Pistols. (This is
somewhat suspect and a power of 7 to 8 is probably more appropriate for
SMG's however that may make them too overbalanced).

Sport Rifles/Sniper Rifles/Medium Machine guns

Sport Rifles have a Power of between 7 and 9 with Barrels long enough to
take advantage of most of the power of the rounds they fire and rounds
capable of being driven well past the speed of sound. The Barrel is also
long enough to provide a very good sight improving accuracy and low rates
of fire combined with a sturdy , bulky weapon makes for very low recoil
problems.

Sniper Rifles have a power from 10 - 12 and are essentially just sport
rifles made with much tighter tolerances increasing weapon accuracy.

Medium Machine Guns have a power from 7 to 10 with slightly longer
barrels and much heavier weights and gas recharge systems instead of
simple blow back or manual (Bolt action and such) recharge systems
compensating for the increased recoil of a very high rate of leaving a
similar power range to the Sport Rifles.

Assault Rifles/Light Machine Guns

Assault Rifles have a Power from 7 to 9 using smaller higher velocity
rounds than sport or sniper rifles their barrels ar not quite long enough
to generate the maximum velocity of the rounds they fire keeping their
power similar to sport rifles. They also are heavy enough to handle the
increased recoil of high rates of fire

Light Machine Guns have a Power of 10 to 12 because they have longer
Barrels allowing for full exploitation of the higher velocities as well
as being heavier with better recoil handling than Assault Rifles causing
a slight increase in power in addition to an increased rate of fire.

Heavy Machine Guns/Anti Materiel Sniper Rifles

Anti Materiel Sniper Rifles have a power of 12 - 15 and are essentially
up powered versions of normal Sniper rifles using the largest rounds
capable of being fired from a hand held weapon.

Heavy Machine Guns have a power of 10 - 12 and are similar to Medium
Machine Guns but even heavier with even longer barrels and firing the
largest rounds available

>I know that fasa has tried to make it so that some weapons don't become too
>powerful, but it seems in doing so they made everything either way under
>powered, or too high powered. Any thoughts?

Other than changing the base damage code of Light Machine Guns down to M
while upping their power to the 10 - 12 range and possibly upping the
power of SMG's by 1 the system as it stands is nearly perfect.

Steve

From:	Jonathan Choy jjchoy@*********.net
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:56:03 -0500

Message no. 7 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Collins" <einan@*********.net>
To: "Shadowrun List" <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: 28 November 2000 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: Damage Codes

<feed Snippage no Oni>
> Sub Machine Guns have a power of 6 or 7, while they have barrels about 2x
> as long as a Heavy Pistol it does not help with the muzzle velocity as
> there is an upper limit to how fast a given powder charge can drive a
> round regardless of Barrel Length and Heavy Pistols already come close to
> that Muzzle Velocity. The Longer Barrel as well as the typical firing
> position does make the sights long enough to be usefull which helps,
> however the increased rates of fire and blowback recoil used to reload
> them end up with a net decrease in accuracy over Heavy Pistols. (This is
> somewhat suspect and a power of 7 to 8 is probably more appropriate for
> SMG's however that may make them too overbalanced).
IIRC, there is a wide variation in SMG ammunition - doesn't the modern Uzi
use a much higher-power 9mm round than your average 9mm pistol?

Tetsujin no Oni
Jonathan Choy
'Of course I feel dirty... I'm from the Horde!'

From:	Matt Bond MBOND@******.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:00:50 -0000

Message no. 8 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Choy [mailto:jjchoy@*********.net]

> IIRC, there is a wide variation in SMG ammunition - doesn't
> the modern Uzi
> use a much higher-power 9mm round than your average 9mm pistol?

AFAIK, it uses standard 9mm Parabellum... Any increase in muzzle
velocity is due to a longer barrel that allows more powder to combust
fully, increasing gas pressure and thus velocity...

Of course, after a certain barrel length, *all* the powder is fully
combusted, so there is no further increase in muzzle velocity from
further lengthening the barrel. Pistol sized ammo will benefit from a
few more inches of barrel (as in a typical SMG), but rifle length
barrels wont raise muzzle velocity much beyond that of an SMG (if at
all) for pistol sized ammo.

Matt

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:14:43 +0100

Message no. 9 According to Jonathan Choy, on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> IIRC, there is a wide variation in SMG ammunition

<Angus Deayton>In what way?</Angus Deayton> :)

The vast majority of SMGs the world over fires 9x19 mm (AKA 9 mm
Parabellum) ammo, especially since WWII. The only other SMG ammo used on a
similar scale, AFAIK, has been the 7.62x25 mm used by the Russian WWII SMGs
like the PPSh-41 and PPS-43. True, there are lots of other calibers that
are or were used in SMGs, but almost all of them only on a small scale,
certainly compared to 9x19 mm.

> doesn't the modern Uzi use a much higher-power 9mm round than your
> average 9mm pistol?

Nope, just standard 9x19 mm. Unless by "average" you mean lighter
9 mm calibers like 9x18 mm, of course.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Paul J. Adam ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:40:10 +0000

Message no. 10 In article <00112819204802.01219@***************>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>According to Jonathan Choy, on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...
>> IIRC, there is a wide variation in SMG ammunition
>
><Angus Deayton>In what way?</Angus Deayton> :)
>
>The vast majority of SMGs the world over fires 9x19 mm (AKA 9 mm
>Parabellum) ammo, especially since WWII.

But not all 9mm is equal.

US "civilian" 9mm is, I'm told, typically a 115 grain bullet which gives
around 1,150 feet per second from a pistol.

NATO military specification 9mm is a 115-grain FMJ bullet at 1,300 feet
per second - a noticeable difference. The US equivalent is a "+P+" load,
which is law-enforcement only and apparently not recommended for many
handguns.

I do sometimes wonder if that's one reason there's so much disdain for
9mm among many US shooters...

>> doesn't the modern Uzi use a much higher-power 9mm round than your
>> average 9mm pistol?
>
>Nope, just standard 9x19 mm. Unless by "average" you mean lighter
>9 mm calibers like 9x18 mm, of course.

As Gurth says, you'd use the same ammunition in your pistols and your
SMGs - it gets pointless and possibly dangerous if you have apparently-
identical rounds that aren't interchangeable.

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	Xyron-II Zoscho@***.de
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Wed, 29 Nov 2000 02:57:58 +0100

Message no. 11 DragonC147@***.com wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been thinking about the damage ratings for different weapons. My
> question is; does anyone have a new damage ratings that would be more
> realistic?
>
> for example:
> SMG's do from 6M to 7M even though they fire the exact same ammo as the Heavy
> Pistols, 9M, and have a longer barrel?
> Assault rifles, .223's do 8M, and light sporting rifles firing the same or
> close caliber do 7S.
> Sniping Rifles: 14S-14D, what is the big difference between a sniping rifle,
> usually a .30-06 or .308 and sporting rifles that fire 7mm, .308, or .30-06?
> 9S to 14S is a big jump.
>
> I know that fasa has tried to make it so that some weapons don't become too
> powerful, but it seems in doing so they made everything either way under
> powered, or too high powered. Any thoughts?
>
> Dragon Claw

My thoughts:

The difference in power levels stems from the SR-system of handling automatic fire.
So, from a game balance point of view, one should not look at the single shot damage,
but at the sort of damage that is caused by the shooting mode the gun will be used in
most likely. With a HP this will be SA mode (9M), while a SMG will mostlikely be used
in BF mode (9S-10S). I think it balances out quite well.
Same thing with assault rifles: rarely, if ever, will one fire an AR in SA mode, so
you shouldn't look at an AR as having 8M, but as having 11S damage (with the potential
of causing up to 18D).

So, the problem does not lie in the "illogic" damage codes, but in the
"illogic"
autofire rules. If anyone knows an alternative (better) rule for automatic fire,
tell us! And then we can start to think about adjusting power and damage of weapons.

The problem with the damage codes of Sniper rifles lies in the absence of a hit location
system in the SR rules, as a sniper rifle isn' that much more powerful than a sporting
rifle (at least in RL), it's just very, very accurate. So, FASA slapped a higher power
rating on sniper rifles to reflect the fact that it is easier to aim for armorless
locations on the target.

All IMHO of course,
~ Xyron-II
--
| Xyron-II (not the first, for whatever reason)
<[XXXXXXXXXXXX]|==================================================-
| If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.

From:	Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject:	Damage Codes
Date:	Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:03:38 +1100

Message no. 12 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: Damage Codes

According to Jonathan Choy, on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 the word on the street
was...

> IIRC, there is a wide variation in SMG ammunition

<Angus Deayton>In what way?</Angus Deayton> :)

The vast majority of SMGs the world over fires 9x19 mm (AKA 9 mm
Parabellum) ammo, especially since WWII. The only other SMG ammo used on a
similar scale, AFAIK, has been the 7.62x25 mm used by the Russian WWII SMGs
like the PPSh-41 and PPS-43. True, there are lots of other calibers that
are or were used in SMGs, but almost all of them only on a small scale,
certainly compared to 9x19 mm.

> doesn't the modern Uzi use a much higher-power 9mm round than your
> average 9mm pistol?

Nope, just standard 9x19 mm. Unless by "average" you mean lighter
9 mm calibers like 9x18 mm, of course.

There are/where conversion kits for the Uzi to take the .45ACP (11.43x 23
mm) and .22 Long Rifle (5.7x 17 mmR) rounds, but I got no idea how common
they are.
(I did have a char using a .45ACP pistol, and a converted Uzi, to cut down
on the types of ammo I had to carry. Seemed like a good idea at the time.
Mil end I think the game was.)

Annachie

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-----A brave man once requested me
-----to answer questions that are key
-----is it to be or not to be
-----and I replied 'oh why ask me?'
-----Theme from MASH

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