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From:	"OUR FIRST CONCERN IS WITH THE DEEDS AND SUFFERING OF MEN.-
Subject:	Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:25:12 EST

Message no. 1 hello all,
a friend and i were making some characters last night and filling in
some bioware. he came across an interesting point. why would anyone choose
damage compensators over pain editors? while pain editors cost more in body
that level 1-3 damage compensators, they are equivalent to level 10 damage
compensators (or so i read the description. if i'm wrong, please LMK). so why
would anyone even think about buying damage compensators at character
generation?

aaron the confuzed

From:	"M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:52:27 EDT

Message no. 2 In a message dated 8/31/98 3:40:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, downsa@******.EDU
writes:

> if i'm wrong, please LMK). so why
> would anyone even think about buying damage compensators at character
> generation?

A lot of GMs run that you never know how much damage you have just atken with
both pieces of Bioware. It is really easy to die with the pain editor. At
least with a damage compensator onece it has reached the maximum damage you
can take you begin to feel it, indicating it is time to leave now.

Also some people do not like the fact the pain editor takes away from either
your intelligence or will power (I can not recall which one it does) making it
easier for cetain spells to affect you.

-Bandit

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:56:50 -0500

Message no. 3 ----------
> From: OUR FIRST CONCERN IS WITH THE DEEDS AND SUFFERING OF MEN.-HEGEL
> hello all,
> a friend and i were making some characters last night and
filling in
> some bioware. he came across an interesting point. why would anyone
choose
> damage compensators over pain editors? while pain editors cost more in
body
> that level 1-3 damage compensators, they are equivalent to level 10
damage
> compensators (or so i read the description. if i'm wrong, please LMK).
so why
> would anyone even think about buying damage compensators at character
> generation?

Well, probably because damage compensators still let you know you're hit,
but it just doesn't affect you. Read the Shadowtalk on Pain Editor.
Notice about the guy who nearly bled to death because he didn't realize
he'd been stuck... basically, he was taking wounds for several rounds
because of the knife still working in him, but he didn't feel it.

Nexx

From:	"OUR FIRST CONCERN IS WITH THE DEEDS AND SUFFERING OF MEN.-
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:07:13 EST

Message no. 4 Nexx wrote:

>Well, probably because damage compensators still let you know you're hit,
>but it just doesn't affect you. Read the Shadowtalk on Pain Editor.
>Notice about the guy who nearly bled to death because he didn't realize
>he'd been stuck... basically, he was taking wounds for several rounds
>because of the knife still working in him, but he didn't feel it.

but even with a damage compensator 7 or 8, i should be running into those kind
of troubles. the same could happen even with a damage compensator 3. a
moderate wound, if one judges that wounds will cause damage over time from
things like bleeding, would be just as 'deadly' in the damage compensator as
the pain editor. it just has a threshold that allows for the possibility for a
character to say 'uh, guys, got a bandaid?'. but i don't think that's enough
of an advantage to make the damage compensator more desirable than the pain
editor.

aaron

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:22:05 -0400

Message no. 5 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:25 PM 8/31/98 -0500, Aaron wrote:
>hello all,
> a friend and i were making some characters last night and
filling in
>some bioware. he came across an interesting point. why would anyone
choose
>damage compensators over pain editors? while pain editors cost more
in body
>that level 1-3 damage compensators, they are equivalent to level 10
damage
>compensators (or so i read the description. if i'm wrong, please
LMK). so why
>would anyone even think about buying damage compensators at character
>generation?

You might want to read more closely. For instance, the Pain Editor
gives you a -1 to INT, and a +4 to any target numbers for touch-based
perception tests, and the Damage Compensators don't.

Also, Damage Compensators are always on and ready to work for you,
while the Pain Editor must be switched on. Then, there's the fact that
the Pain Editor doesn't negate penalites from Physical Damage, only
Mental Damage.

The big, BIG disadvantage to the Pain Editor is that it does take away
all the pain. With the Damage Compensators, it's only reccomended that
the GM covertly keep track of the amount of damage the PC has taken,
but with the Pain Editor, it's a requirement.

With the Damage Compensators, usually at some point, the damage is
going to overload the compensators, and you'll start to feel the pain
again, so that you'll know that you're hurt pretty bad.

With the Pain Editor though, you could have 10 boxes of damage marked
off on your mental track, 10 boxes in your physical track, and some
damage in your physical damage overflow box (as long as as the damage
in the physical overflow box hasn't exceeded the character's body
stat), and still be alert and on the front lines of combat, with out a
clue that you're about ready to drop.

That's the bad thing about the Pain Editor. The characer doesn't go
unconscious from excessive damage, until the Editor is turned off, the
character or drops dead. And you, as the player, have no firm way of
knowing just how close you are, since your condition monitors are
behind the GM's screen. Sure, you might be able to guess how bad off
you are, since the physical damage penalties are still being applied,
but if you get a string of lucky dice rolls, you might think you're
better off than you really are.

So, do you like to gamble when the stakes are that high?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:22:20 -0400

Message no. 6 At 04:07 PM 8/31/98 EST, you wrote:
>character to say 'uh, guys, got a bandaid?'. but i don't think that's=
enough
>of an advantage to make the damage compensator more desirable than the pain
>editor.
>
>aaron

Maybe personal/superficial reasons ('Damage Compensator', that has a nice
ring to it). Maybe damage compensators are just plain easier for the
shadowclinic to 'get ahold of'/produce. Maybe pain editors are a more
uncomfortable fixture (you can always feel the damn thing in there).

Statistics aren't always the only reason to do things.

noysh the spoonë bard [BABY 909]
shaung@**********.net
>jack of all trades, master of none.

From:	Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:40:12 -0400

Message no. 7 On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Paul Gettle wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
> Also, Damage Compensators are always on and ready to work for you,
> while the Pain Editor must be switched on. Then, there's the fact that
> the Pain Editor doesn't negate penalites from Physical Damage, only
> Mental Damage.
>
> The big, BIG disadvantage to the Pain Editor is that it does take away
> all the pain. With the Damage Compensators, it's only reccomended that
> the GM covertly keep track of the amount of damage the PC has taken,
> but with the Pain Editor, it's a requirement.
>
> With the Damage Compensators, usually at some point, the damage is
> going to overload the compensators, and you'll start to feel the pain
> again, so that you'll know that you're hurt pretty bad.
>
> With the Pain Editor though, you could have 10 boxes of damage marked
> off on your mental track, 10 boxes in your physical track, and some
> damage in your physical damage overflow box (as long as as the damage
> in the physical overflow box hasn't exceeded the character's body
> stat), and still be alert and on the front lines of combat, with out a
> clue that you're about ready to drop.
>
> That's the bad thing about the Pain Editor. The characer doesn't go
> unconscious from excessive damage, until the Editor is turned off, the
> character or drops dead. And you, as the player, have no firm way of
> knowing just how close you are, since your condition monitors are
> behind the GM's screen. Sure, you might be able to guess how bad off
> you are, since the physical damage penalties are still being applied,
> but if you get a string of lucky dice rolls, you might think you're
> better off than you really are.
>
> So, do you like to gamble when the stakes are that high?

Personally, I'm unwilling to take that level of risk. Not when I know our
GM will kill off people in exactly that manner.

We lost an NPC who was sitting on a couch drinking a beer waiting for the
PC to get home. He hadn't noticed that he had been shot in the back. As a
result he bleed to death and the PC came home to a stiff and a fridge with
no beer in it. Of course, until this point his communication with the NPC
had not been in person so the PC had no clue who this guy was and called
his chummers over tp help him dump the body in an alley. Things got
interesting when the NPC's team came looking for him.

- Kama

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:54:30 -0400

Message no. 8 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:40 PM 8/31/98 -0400, Kama wrote:
>> So, do you like to gamble when the stakes are that high?
>
>Personally, I'm unwilling to take that level of risk. Not when I know
our
>GM will kill off people in exactly that manner.

So, Aaron, here's one answer to your question "why would people choose
a damage compensator over the pain editor?"

Another answer: I know some players who just don't like giving that
level of control into the hands of the GM. When I GM someone with a
Pain Editor, not only do their condition boxes come behind my GM
screen, so do their dice. All I let them know is when they can go, and
whether their success test succeded or failed. If they knew what
numbers they were getting on their dice, they might learn too much.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:04:39 -0400

Message no. 9 Paul Gettle wrote:
>
> Another answer: I know some players who just don't like giving that
> level of control into the hands of the GM. When I GM someone with a
> Pain Editor, not only do their condition boxes come behind my GM
> screen, so do their dice. All I let them know is when they can go, and
> whether their success test succeded or failed. If they knew what
> numbers they were getting on their dice, they might learn too much.

Ooof.. Good idea, actually.

So would searching yourself for gaping wounds be a Free, Simple, or
Complex Action? >8->

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

From:	Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:13:04 -0400

Message no. 10 Steve Eley wrote:
>
> Paul Gettle wrote:
> >
> > Another answer: I know some players who just don't like giving that
> > level of control into the hands of the GM. When I GM someone with a
> > Pain Editor, not only do their condition boxes come behind my GM
> > screen, so do their dice. All I let them know is when they can go, and
> > whether their success test succeded or failed. If they knew what
> > numbers they were getting on their dice, they might learn too much.
>
> Ooof.. Good idea, actually.
>
> So would searching yourself for gaping wounds be a Free, Simple, or
> Complex Action? >8->

I believe it's an intelligence (6) test, or a biotech (2) test. :> Not
sure what kind of action it would be...

"Hey, cool, I can put my fist through this here hole in my
stomach...what do you mean, I'm not supposed to be able to do that?"

--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:40:01 -0700

Message no. 11 +AD4-hello all,
+AD4- a friend and i were making some characters last night and
filling in
+AD4-some bioware. he came across an interesting point. why would anyone
choose
+AD4-damage compensators over pain editors? while pain editors cost more
in body
+AD4-that level 1-3 damage compensators, they are equivalent to level 10
damage
+AD4-compensators (or so i read the description. if i'm wrong, please
LMK). so why
+AD4-would anyone even think about buying damage compensators at character
+AD4-generation?
+AD4-
+AD4-aaron the confuzed
+AD4-

A pain editor has many disadvantages, described in its text.
Basically, they are all there to allow the GM to fuck with you. Now,
its reasonable that normal sensation still gets through (attenuated),
but you could easily burn yourself on your own gun barrel, get shot by
a sniper and wonder why you fell over, break a leg running or jumping
(ever land bad and ALMOST hurt your ankle? with a pain editor, you'd
think you'd landed fine...), etc. Pain is an important part of
optimal body function. The primary damage of LEPROSY is to the
peripheral pain nerves+ADs- common accidents and infection do the rest of
the work.
As for the compensators, they do more than block pain+ADs- they also
prevent shock. As such, they cancel the effects of PHYSICAL damage.
The pain editor does not+ADs- the GM tracks your physical damage (and I
like knowing mine) and applies the effects.

Me, I don't get either+ADs- I go for the trauma damper / platelet
factory, and other wares that actually reduce the damage you TAKE
(muscle aug counts+ADs- you fight harder, and run away faster). Why
compensate for damage when you can avoid it?

Mongoose

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:38:19 -0700

Message no. 12 >With the Pain Editor though, you could have 10 boxes of damage marked
>off on your mental track, 10 boxes in your physical track, and some
>damage in your physical damage overflow box (as long as as the damage
>in the physical overflow box hasn't exceeded the character's body
>stat), and still be alert and on the front lines of combat, with out
a
>clue that you're about ready to drop.

It was always my impression that the Pain Editor stopped stun from
knocking you out (as it says), but physical damage still would (all
its other effects are as normal). Hypovolaemic shock will knock you
out, even if you don't feel it (you might be immune to vasvagal shock,
which is based on neural stimulus, not blood loss). Either will
commonly "knock out" people with severe physical trauma, and can lead
to death, so both likely apply to folks with "D" wounds.

Mongoose

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:07:29 +0100

Message no. 13 Paul Gettle said on 16:54/31 Aug 98,...

> Another answer: I know some players who just don't like giving that
> level of control into the hands of the GM. When I GM someone with a
> Pain Editor, not only do their condition boxes come behind my GM
> screen, so do their dice. All I let them know is when they can go, and
> whether their success test succeded or failed. If they knew what
> numbers they were getting on their dice, they might learn too much.

The way I used to do it the only time I had a PC with a pain
editor, was to let the player roll the dice, and then figure out the
results behind my GM screen so he didn't know what was going
on. He saw his own rolls, but they tended not to give him all that
much information. Like Paul said, all I let him know was when
everything went black before his eyes, and in case of bad rolls I
tended to ask him if he wanted to use Karma.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wanted: New signature line. Good prices paid. LTG# 3111 (856-6006)
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Chameleon <cham@***.BIGPOND.NET.AU>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:33:52 +1000

Message no. 14 <snip other stuff and sig>
>Like Paul said, all I let him know was when
>everything went black before his eyes, and in case of bad rolls I
>tended to ask him if he wanted to use Karma.

Just a question, what would you do if the player chose the edge Common
Sense, once they were getting really hurt, you would say "You decide its
time to leave now when you notice the gaping hole in your leg"???

From:	Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:19:51 +0200

Message no. 15 M. Sean Martinez wrote:

> Also some people do not like the fact the pain editor takes away from either
> your intelligence or will power (I can not recall which one it does) making it
> easier for cetain spells to affect you.

It takes away from your intelligence, but it adds to your will power. So it's not
much of a disadvantage...

Blix (who is back again, as you may have noticed now ;-) )

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:03:34 -0400

Message no. 16 On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Shaun Gilroy wrote:

->At 04:07 PM 8/31/98 EST, you wrote:
->>character to say 'uh, guys, got a bandaid?'. but i don't think that's enough
->>of an advantage to make the damage compensator more desirable than the pain
->>editor.
->>
->>aaron
->
->Maybe personal/superficial reasons ('Damage Compensator', that has a nice
->ring to it). Maybe damage compensators are just plain easier for the
->shadowclinic to 'get ahold of'/produce. Maybe pain editors are a more
->uncomfortable fixture (you can always feel the damn thing in there).

Both would have to be cultured (as neural bioware). I believe
it's more psychological, though. Imagine being a leper. When you've got
your pain editor on, you're basically sufferring from sensory deprivation,
which no one but the most stressed-out people enjoy. It would be bad if,
in a fight, you suddenly couldn't feel whether or not you were holding
your sword, whether the gun in your hand just exploded, etc.
Oh, and my leper comment is from what I've read on lepers. They
feel little to no pain from tactile sensors, so they can get injured and
not even know it and bleed to death. Reminded me of a pain editor on all
the time.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	"M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:31:39 EDT

Message no. 17 In a message dated 9/1/98 8:05:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, WiebkeT@**
ONLINE.DE writes:

> It takes away from your intelligence, but it adds to your will power. So
it's
> not
> much of a disadvantage...

So it can possibly affect your reaction and combat pool and make it a little
easier to be affected by the Chaos spell. I would say that is a disadvantage,
but I guess it is how you look at it.

The most you could lose is 1 point off your initive and 1 combat pool. Though
withe the new system, I want as much combat pool as I can get.

IMHO

-Bandit

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:06:00 -0400

Message no. 18 On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, M. Sean Martinez wrote:

->In a message dated 9/1/98 8:05:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, WiebkeT@**
->ONLINE.DE writes:
->
->> It takes away from your intelligence, but it adds to your will power. So
->it's
->> not
->> much of a disadvantage...
->
->So it can possibly affect your reaction and combat pool and make it a little
->easier to be affected by the Chaos spell. I would say that is a disadvantage,
->but I guess it is how you look at it.
->
->The most you could lose is 1 point off your initive and 1 combat pool. Though
->withe the new system, I want as much combat pool as I can get.

You would lose one point of Combat pool unless the rules for
calculating it have changed (+1 Wil vs. -1 Int, same end total to divide
by 2).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	"M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:59:35 EDT

Message no. 19 In a message dated 9/1/98 11:57:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> You would lose one point of Combat pool unless the rules for
> calculating it have changed (+1 Wil vs. -1 Int, same end total to divide
> by 2).

D'oh! Time to switch to caffine, I have no idea what I was thinking.

-Bandit

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:50:37 -0400

Message no. 20 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:33 PM 9/1/98 +1000, Chameleon wrote:
>Just a question, what would you do if the player chose the edge
Common
>Sense, once they were getting really hurt, you would say "You decide
its
>time to leave now when you notice the gaping hole in your leg"???

If a player chose the edge Common Sense, I'd give them a chance to
rethink their decision about getting a Pain Editor, before they went
under the knife. Even if the character does have "Common Sense" the
player can choose to ignore it, and if they do, I'm not going to keep
using Common Sense to constantly badger the player about the bad
choice they made. :)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Damage Compensator/Pain Editor
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:50:20 -0400

Message no. 21 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:38 PM 8/31/98 -0700, Mongoose wrote:
> It was always my impression that the Pain Editor stopped stun
from
>knocking you out (as it says), but physical damage still would (all
>its other effects are as normal).

This is the correct interpertation, actually. I'd misread the passage
when I posted before.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

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