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Message no. 1
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:30:53 -0500
Yiannakos wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Strago" <strago@***.com>
> > Of course, they can also tell what kind of damage I've done to them, since
> I
> > serious wound for me means you lose a limb. And that brings up another
> question,
> > do you GMs out there use fantastic descriptions of damage for your PCs, or
> just
> > your NPCs? Does the "Blood messily splatters on the wall behind him"
> happen just
> > when your PC fires a three round burst to the head? Or would it also
> happen with
> > an NPC?
>
> I use graphic damage descriptions for PCs as well as NPCs. I haven't had a
> problem with people determining what their damage is from the description.
> <SNIP>

The other problem, that I just saw when I re-read my post, is that a serious
wound for a PC is actually quite problematic for the character in general.
Listed below are common examples of damages:
Light: Bullet in the arm, or leg, or in the torso in a non-vital area (like a
shoulder); the bullet is embedded in the muscle and is a deeper and more painful
wound, with a full open entry wound.
Moderate: This gives you much more opening for description. The bullet hits
around the limbs and causes some serious damage. Bones are broken, there's
probably an exit wound as well as an entry wound. The use of that limb for much
of anything is nothing.
Serious: A torso wound, most likely, though maybe the total annihilation of a
limb. The bullet again goes through the body and this time causes some major
damage along the way, ricocheting a few times before exiting. The PC is bleeding
severely. If a limb is hit with a serious wound, medical personell are forced to
amputate, the wound is so grievous.
Deadly: A sucking chest wound, a head shot, maybe even the slicing of a major
vein or artery so blood spurts out of the PC with each heartbeat. In this case,
the PC IS LITERALLY BLEEDING TO DEATH. In my campaign, overdamage is the amount
of time it takes for the heart to pump out enough of the blood that the person
goes into cardiac arrest and the brain to not get enough oxygen.

I don't know, are these too grievous? Should I move each up one level, ie. make
Serious into Deadly, or should I keep it the way it is?

>
> YMMV, of course.
>
> ---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 2
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:44:26 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Strago" <strago@***.com>

> The other problem, that I just saw when I re-read my post, is that a
serious
> wound for a PC is actually quite problematic for the character in general.
> Listed below are common examples of damages:
> Light: Bullet in the arm, or leg, or in the torso in a non-vital area
(like a
> shoulder); the bullet is embedded in the muscle and is a deeper and more
painful
> wound, with a full open entry wound.
> Moderate: This gives you much more opening for description. The bullet
hits
> around the limbs and causes some serious damage. Bones are broken, there's
> probably an exit wound as well as an entry wound. The use of that limb for
much
> of anything is nothing.
> Serious: A torso wound, most likely, though maybe the total annihilation
of a
> limb. The bullet again goes through the body and this time causes some
major
> damage along the way, ricocheting a few times before exiting. The PC is
bleeding
> severely. If a limb is hit with a serious wound, medical personell are
forced to
> amputate, the wound is so grievous.
> Deadly: A sucking chest wound, a head shot, maybe even the slicing of a
major
> vein or artery so blood spurts out of the PC with each heartbeat. In this
case,
> the PC IS LITERALLY BLEEDING TO DEATH. In my campaign, overdamage is the
amount
> of time it takes for the heart to pump out enough of the blood that the
person
> goes into cardiac arrest and the brain to not get enough oxygen.
>
> I don't know, are these too grievous? Should I move each up one level, ie.
make
> Serious into Deadly, or should I keep it the way it is?

To me, it sounds good, but again, I don't GM Shadowrun. All my experience
with this type of idea comes from UA, which is designed to be an _extremely_
lethal game. ( I know Shadowrun is as well compared to many games) One of
the things I liked about UA when I read it is that your average PC stands a
reasonable chance of getting killed by being shot. Just shot, not hosed down
with a machine gun. With what the setting is in Shadowrun, and what
Shadowrunners are and do, it may be a good idea to stage it down a little.
Then again, I may be completely off base here.

---Dave ('s off base man)
Message no. 3
From: Dave Mowbray dave_mowbray@*****.com
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:16:57 -0500
Dave (not me) wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Strago" <strago@***.com>
>
> > The other problem, that I just saw when I re-read my post, is that a
> serious
> > wound for a PC is actually quite problematic for the
> character in general.
> > Listed below are common examples of damages:
> > Light: Bullet in the arm, or leg, or in the torso in a
> non-vital area
> (like a
> > shoulder); the bullet is embedded in the muscle and is a
> deeper and more
> painful
> > wound, with a full open entry wound.
> > Moderate: This gives you much more opening for description.
> The bullet
> hits
> > around the limbs and causes some serious damage. Bones are
> broken, there's
> > probably an exit wound as well as an entry wound. The use
> of that limb for
> much
> > of anything is nothing.
> > Serious: A torso wound, most likely, though maybe the total
> annihilation
> of a
> > limb. The bullet again goes through the body and this time
> causes some
> major
> > damage along the way, ricocheting a few times before
> exiting. The PC is
> bleeding
> > severely. If a limb is hit with a serious wound, medical
> personell are
> forced to
> > amputate, the wound is so grievous.
> > Deadly: A sucking chest wound, a head shot, maybe even the
> slicing of a
> major
> > vein or artery so blood spurts out of the PC with each
> heartbeat. In this
> case,
> > the PC IS LITERALLY BLEEDING TO DEATH. In my campaign,
> overdamage is the
> amount
> > of time it takes for the heart to pump out enough of the
> blood that the
> person
> > goes into cardiac arrest and the brain to not get enough oxygen.
> >
> > I don't know, are these too grievous? Should I move each up
> one level, ie.
> make
> > Serious into Deadly, or should I keep it the way it is?
>
> To me, it sounds good, but again, I don't GM Shadowrun. All
> my experience
> with this type of idea comes from UA, which is designed to be
> an _extremely_
> lethal game. ( I know Shadowrun is as well compared to many
> games) One of
> the things I liked about UA when I read it is that your
> average PC stands a
> reasonable chance of getting killed by being shot. Just shot,
> not hosed down
> with a machine gun. With what the setting is in Shadowrun, and what
> Shadowrunners are and do, it may be a good idea to stage it
> down a little.
> Then again, I may be completely off base here.
>
> ---Dave ('s off base man)

While I do like the above descriptions, I am tempted to move everything up a
level... because, after all, SR is supposed to be cinematic (I will now
pause whilst everyone tries to grasp me admitting to the game being
cinematic after my continued insistence on more RL-like rules). It's also
hard to asses a penalty for a lost limb. Sure... you took a moderate
wound... and you're gonna keep shooting your gun with what?

Actually, I rather like the descriptions as they are, although I would move
loss of a limb up to a deadly wound.

-Dave
Message no. 4
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:16:50 -0500
Dave Mowbray wrote:

> Dave (not me) wrote:
> <SNIP ME>
> While I do like the above descriptions, I am tempted to move everything up a
> level... because, after all, SR is supposed to be cinematic (I will now
> pause whilst everyone tries to grasp me admitting to the game being
> cinematic after my continued insistence on more RL-like rules).

*Strago just looks at that for a second. "But...but...but..." Then his head
explodes from the pressure.*

> It's also hard to asses a penalty for a lost limb. Sure... you took a
> moderate
> wound... and you're gonna keep shooting your gun with what?
>

But with a moderate wound there is a broken bone somewhere. Now maybe it's not
the gun arm, but standing on a broken leg's gonna be tough, and you're gonna be
in a whole world of hurt from all that stuff. I really think some sort of
willpower test is in order somewhere around here to continue your action.

>
> Actually, I rather like the descriptions as they are, although I would move
> loss of a limb up to a deadly wound.

The more I think about it, the more I agree with you.

>
> -Dave

-Strago
Message no. 5
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:26:35 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mowbray" <dave_mowbray@*****.com>
> While I do like the above descriptions, I am tempted to move everything up
a
> level... because, after all, SR is supposed to be cinematic (I will now
> pause whilst everyone tries to grasp me admitting to the game being
> cinematic after my continued insistence on more RL-like rules). It's also
> hard to asses a penalty for a lost limb. Sure... you took a moderate
> wound... and you're gonna keep shooting your gun with what?
>
> Actually, I rather like the descriptions as they are, although I would
move
> loss of a limb up to a deadly wound.
>
> -Dave

Agreed. Losing a limb in a violent manner will (IIRC) get you all that
spouting gouts of blood that come with the severing of major arteries.

---Dave ('s not the other Dave man)
Message no. 6
From: Grey metis76@*****.com
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:31:18 -0800 (PST)
> The other problem, that I just saw when I re-read my
> post, is that a serious
> wound for a PC is actually quite problematic for the
> character in general.
> Listed below are common examples of damages:
> Light: Bullet in the arm, or leg, or in the torso in
> a non-vital area (like a
> shoulder); the bullet is embedded in the muscle and
> is a deeper and more painful
> wound, with a full open entry wound.
> Moderate: This gives you much more opening for
> description. The bullet hits
> around the limbs and causes some serious damage.
> Bones are broken, there's
> probably an exit wound as well as an entry wound.
> The use of that limb for much
> of anything is nothing.
> Serious: A torso wound, most likely, though maybe
> the total annihilation of a
> limb. The bullet again goes through the body and
> this time causes some major
> damage along the way, ricocheting a few times before
> exiting. The PC is bleeding
> severely. If a limb is hit with a serious wound,
> medical personell are forced to
> amputate, the wound is so grievous.
> Deadly: A sucking chest wound, a head shot, maybe
> even the slicing of a major
> vein or artery so blood spurts out of the PC with
> each heartbeat. In this case,
> the PC IS LITERALLY BLEEDING TO DEATH. In my
> campaign, overdamage is the amount
> of time it takes for the heart to pump out enough of
> the blood that the person
> goes into cardiac arrest and the brain to not get
> enough oxygen.
>
> I don't know, are these too grievous? Should I move
> each up one level, ie. make
> Serious into Deadly, or should I keep it the way it
> is?

I just subscribed to the list today and wow.. I love
this idea of actually giving detail to wounds, rather
that just a simple "you get shot". As for if you are
being too harsh, the only thing I would change is in
the Serious wound I wouldn't say that a limb would be
beyond repair, but until a doc works on it, it is
completely usless. Thanks for the idea on over damage
too, I'm gunna have a great time Saturday when my
players get a load of all this =)

Grey

====~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is no Black and White. Only shades of Grey.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Message no. 7
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:18:27 -0500
Grey wrote:

> <SNIP>

> I just subscribed to the list today and wow.. I love
> this idea of actually giving detail to wounds, rather
> that just a simple "you get shot". As for if you are
> being too harsh, the only thing I would change is in
> the Serious wound I wouldn't say that a limb would be
> beyond repair, but until a doc works on it, it is
> completely usless. Thanks for the idea on over damage
> too, I'm gunna have a great time Saturday when my
> players get a load of all this =)
>

Well, as long as you let me know what happened and how it worked out
that'd be great...

>
> Grey
>
> ====> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> There is no Black and White. Only shades of Grey.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and
the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they
produce? The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+
m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:37:26 -0600
From: Dave Mowbray
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 1:17 PM

> Actually, I rather like the descriptions as they are, although I
> would move loss of a limb up to a deadly wound.

Especially since there are already rules for that in the game as it stands.
I don't see the need to make rules for something that's already there and
already works. (Steve, you or Myron wanna tell them about the limb loss
rules?)

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:27:00 -0800 (PST)
<BigSnip(TM) of lovely, graphic, dinner-time
entertainment...>
> I don't know, are these too grievous? Should I move
each up one level, ie. make Serious into Deadly, or
should I keep it the way it is?

I'd recommend that course of action, Josh (increasing
one level, not leaving it the way it is). After all,
in the actual SR rules, a deadly wound CAN cause the
loss of a limb or major organ (not WILL, but CAN).
You've got that level of destruction at serious, and
what looks like definite limb or organ loss to me. I'd
say your description of deadly, while pleasantly
stomach-churning, is more indicative of deadly plus
overdamage. I think with deadly you're crapped, but
stable - only with overdamage are you actually going
to die within the next few minutes (that's what it was
like in SRII - I THINK it's still the same in SR3).

Btw, how do you handle characters with High Pain
Tolerance or adepts with Pain Resistance? I don't
think you can realistically with your damage levels. I
mean, that adept with level 6 Pain Resistance isn't
supposed to be taking any modifiers to his actions
from serious damage, but hey, he just lost a leg.

*Doc' stares in amazement. "I've never seen a man hop
that fast before in my life!"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 10
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:46:14 -0500
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> <SNIP>

> Btw, how do you handle characters with High Pain
> Tolerance or adepts with Pain Resistance? I don't
> think you can realistically with your damage levels. I
> mean, that adept with level 6 Pain Resistance isn't
> supposed to be taking any modifiers to his actions
> from serious damage, but hey, he just lost a leg.
>
> *Doc' stares in amazement. "I've never seen a man hop
> that fast before in my life!"*
>

Well, luckily none of my players have used that since I implemented the
rules. And since I have modified the damage a bit, moving the "losing use
of a limb permenantly" bit up to Deadly status while leaving the rest
alone, well, you get the idea. And here's my reasoning for the Deadly
category. It says in SR3 rules that if you get 10 boxes of damage (at
least the way I read it, they really don't mention what happens if you are
at EXACTLY 10 boxes of damage, and how often does that happen?) or more,
then you take another box of damage every (Body)Combat Turns. This
represents the amount of blood in you and the length of time it takes to
move. I'm not a doctor, so I don't know how long it would take to drain
the body of enough blood for you to die, but it seems to me that the
larger your body, the farther the blood has to travel, and the more time
it takes to lose the blood. Look at the amount of time it takes to give
ONE of the EIGHT pints of blood in the human body. And my other rule is
that (Body) is unaugmented. It seems reasonable that it would take someone
with a Body of 5 *quick math: 5 combat turns x 3 seconds per turn
seconds for one box of damage x 5 boxes = 75 seconds or 1.25 minutes* to
lose all the blood in the body. That's a long time to get over there at
the speeds we're talking. And that's in the SR3 rules.

>
> ====> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)
>
> S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.
>
> .sig Sauer
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the
Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they
produce? The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+
(o++ d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:52:18 -0800 (PST)
> Well, luckily none of my players have used that
since I implemented the rules. And since I have
modified the damage a bit, moving the "losing use of a
limb permenantly" bit up to Deadly status while
leaving the rest alone, well, you get the idea.

Damn it! I wanted to see the Hopping Adept!!!

> And here's my reasoning for the Deadly category.
<BigSnip(TM)>
> --Strago

You're probably right. Like I said, I wasn't sure if
the "stable at Deadly" thing still applied in SR3.
It's been a while since I've had...actually, to this
point in time, I've NEVER had a character done over
that badly in SR3. I need to play more. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 12
From: Grey metis76@*****.com
Subject: Damage Description (was Re: Condition Monitoring (was Re: Ironic))
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:36:48 -0800 (PST)
Just writing back like asked..
It went off great! At first a few of the guy were
bitching about the cost of having to get their
arms/legs/etc fixed, but as things moved on, everyone
loved the added detail and realism involved.

Grey

--- Strago <strago@***.com> wrote:
> Grey wrote:
>
> > <SNIP>
>
> > I just subscribed to the list today and wow.. I
> love
> > this idea of actually giving detail to wounds,
> rather
> > that just a simple "you get shot". As for if you
> are
> > being too harsh, the only thing I would change is
> in
> > the Serious wound I wouldn't say that a limb would
> be
> > beyond repair, but until a doc works on it, it is
> > completely usless. Thanks for the idea on over
> damage
> > too, I'm gunna have a great time Saturday when my
> > players get a load of all this =)
> >
>
> Well, as long as you let me know what happened and
> how it worked out
> that'd be great...
>
> >
> > Grey
> >
> > ====> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > There is no Black and White. Only shades of Grey.
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > http://im.yahoo.com
>
> --
> --Strago
>
> In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had
> warfare, terror,
> murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo,
> Leonardo da Vinci and
> the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
> love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and
> what did they
> produce? The cuckoo clock!
> -Orson Welles
>
> SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF
> W+ sa++ ma++ ad+
> m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M P
>
>
>
>
>

====~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is no Black and White. Only shades of Grey.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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