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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 06:15:02 2002
Has anyone ever played with increased damage modifiers, and if so, what was
the conclusion resulting from the experiment?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm thinking of doing just that for my
next SR campaign (whenever that may be), in order to make wounds hurt
instead of be an inconvenience. I'm thinking of either doubling the
existing modifiers (to +2/+4/+6) or making them +1/+3/+5. In either case,
doing stuff while wounded becomes a lot more difficult than it is with the
standard modifiers, so I figure it may be better to ask for other people's
experience before trying this myself :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 06:20:01 2002
Gurth writes:

> The reason I'm asking is because I'm thinking of doing just that for my
> next SR campaign (whenever that may be), in order to make wounds hurt
> instead of be an inconvenience. I'm thinking of either doubling the
> existing modifiers (to +2/+4/+6) or making them +1/+3/+5. In either case,
> doing stuff while wounded becomes a lot more difficult than it is with the
> standard modifiers, so I figure it may be better to ask for other people's
> experience before trying this myself :)

I don't quite know about you, but in my experience, the existing damage
modifiers are nasty enough as it is! The usual progression that I see is:

(a) Unwounded shadowrunners with Karma, then
(b) Wounded shadowrunners with no Karma, then, very shortly
thereafter
(c) Dead shadowrunners.

As soon as the runners get wounded, the modifiers snowball so much that they
die shortly thereafter. The only way to avoid this is to, more or less, only
spend Karma to avoid taking damage. This greatly prolongs the expected
lifespan of a character.

In other words, I'm wondering why on earth you'd want to make the damage
modifiers _nastier_ than the already pretty darn nasty ones that they
already are?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 08:40:01 2002
Gurth writes:
>
> > The reason I'm asking is because I'm thinking of doing just
> that for my
> > next SR campaign (whenever that may be), in order to make
> wounds hurt
> > instead of be an inconvenience. I'm thinking of either doubling the
> > existing modifiers (to +2/+4/+6) or making them +1/+3/+5.
> In either case,
> > doing stuff while wounded becomes a lot more difficult than
> it is with the
> > standard modifiers, so I figure it may be better to ask for
> other people's
> > experience before trying this myself :)

Damion replies:
>
> I don't quite know about you, but in my experience, the
> existing damage
> modifiers are nasty enough as it is! The usual progression
> that I see is:
>
> (a) Unwounded shadowrunners with Karma, then
> (b) Wounded shadowrunners with no Karma, then, very shortly
> thereafter
> (c) Dead shadowrunners.
>
> As soon as the runners get wounded, the modifiers snowball so
> much that they
> die shortly thereafter. The only way to avoid this is to,
> more or less, only
> spend Karma to avoid taking damage. This greatly prolongs the expected
> lifespan of a character.
>
> In other words, I'm wondering why on earth you'd want to make
> the damage
> modifiers _nastier_ than the already pretty darn nasty ones that they
> already are?


Got to agree with Damion here. Played just last night, and had more than
enough examples of what he's saying here. Increasing the wound modifiers
would make combat even shorter than it tends to be now (unless everyone
on all sides are taking wounds equally, then it'll probably be
prolonged)

Shadowrunners, and NPCs for that matter, blow most if not all their
Karma within the first 3 rounds of a serious, relitavely equal
firefight. Mostly spent on dodging. Because if you get wounded, you're
soon to be toast. Especially if there's stun damage flying around too
(cuncussion granades, stunballs, etc.) If weapons fire goes beyond the
first 3 rounds, any survivors are usually suffering from some form of
wound or other. The existing modifiers make sure that the combat never
lasts beyond 5 rounds (for us anyway), because dodging becomes so much
more difficult, and it becomes almost impossible to hit an opponent
under cover with the modifiers. And trying to resist drain with a +2 or
+3 modifier on powerful spells becomes much more tricky.

Of course I'm talking about a relitavely strait up firefight, roughly
equal number of opponents, with some cover available. Ambush situations,
or some other uneven fight usually makes things even shorter. Points I
guess I'm trying to enforce is that the existing modifiers are enough
for most gamers. I know my players continuously lament them, especially
our mage (resisting drain with wound modifiers sucks)

Our game last night, 5 competent shadowrunners (specialists,
mercenaries, initiated mages and adepts) came up against a diverse,
6-man security team. The SecTeam has a slight initiative advantage, and
is able to wound just about everyone in the first round of combat.
Because of those wounds, the team is unable to properly fight back, and
within another 2 rounds only 1 Shadowrunner is standing with 4 sec
guards converging on him (2 wounded). We all had the "wound modifiers"
concept hammered home that fight. Dodge Dodge Dodge, find cover, and use
Karma if you have to ... Don't get wounded.
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 08:45:01 2002
LeBlanc, Lange writes:

> And trying to resist drain with a +2 or +3 modifier on powerful spells
> becomes much more tricky.
>
> I know my players continuously lament them, especially our mage (resisting
> drain with wound modifiers sucks)

I think that I may be able to help him out here. Wound modifiers do not
apply to Drain Tests. I can't recall off the top of my head where it says
this, but the rules (someplace ;-)) are quite explicit about it.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 09:10:01 2002
> LeBlanc, Lange writes:
>
> > And trying to resist drain with a +2 or +3 modifier on
> powerful spells
> > becomes much more tricky.
> >
> > I know my players continuously lament them, especially our
> mage (resisting
> > drain with wound modifiers sucks)
>
> I think that I may be able to help him out here. Wound
> modifiers do not
> apply to Drain Tests. I can't recall off the top of my head
> where it says
> this, but the rules (someplace ;-)) are quite explicit about it.
>
hmmmmm. I'll have to do some deep digging into the books. But thanks for
the heads up. He sure will appreciate it if it exists somewhere.

You should have seen his face when I told him the drain was only on
HALF-power of the spell rounded down, and not the full power ;-) (we
only found it after 3 games) ... he'll be just as happy if I can find a
wound-modifiers rule exempting drain tests.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 09:20:01 2002
> You should have seen his face when I told him the drain was only on
> HALF-power of the spell rounded down, and not the full power ;-) (we
> only found it after 3 games) ... he'll be just as happy if I can find a
> wound-modifiers rule exempting drain tests.
>

The wound modifiers affect your Sorcery Test for casting/sustaining spells.
:-)

No target modifiers apply to the drain resistance test except where
specifically noted. (pg 183 SR3, upper right hand corner)
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 09:25:01 2002
> The wound modifiers affect your Sorcery Test for
> casting/sustaining spells.
> :-)
>
> No target modifiers apply to the drain resistance test except where
> specifically noted. (pg 183 SR3, upper right hand corner)

Thanks for the precise reference. Will look it up and send it to him
tonight :-)
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 09:30:02 2002
> Thanks for the precise reference. Will look it up and send it to him
> tonight :-)
>
>

np about time I provided some help other than debating eh? 8^)
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 11:30:01 2002
> > The reason I'm asking is because I'm thinking of doing just that for my
> > next SR campaign (whenever that may be), in order to make wounds hurt
> > instead of be an inconvenience. I'm thinking of either doubling the
> > existing modifiers (to +2/+4/+6) or making them +1/+3/+5. In either
case,
> > doing stuff while wounded becomes a lot more difficult than it is with
the
> > standard modifiers, so I figure it may be better to ask for other
people's
> > experience before trying this myself :)
> (a) Unwounded shadowrunners with Karma, then
> (b) Wounded shadowrunners with no Karma, then, very shortly
> thereafter
> (c) Dead shadowrunners.



In my sort experience with my group (experienced role-players, who are
usually DAMN good and competent). Combat is VERY deadly! Unless you're a
troll with a TON of armor, even a light pistol can kill in but two to three
shots! that's deadly! And if you have a high skill, staging the damage up
become easy too! I couldn't believe it. Beforing GMing, my bro-in-law and
I had three different combats to see how things worked. A mage vs a physad!
We had three different combats, each only lasted only initiative round. By
the end of everyone's actins for the round, one of us was dead! It was
crazy!

Meph
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 15:25:01 2002
According to Damion Milliken, on Mon, 21 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> I don't quite know about you, but in my experience, the existing damage
> modifiers are nasty enough as it is!

In my experience, players continue acting as if nothing is wrong even if they
have a Serious wound; they fail their rolls a bit more often, but not all that
much, but that's about it. The main reason I'm thinking about increasing the
penalties is to make a wound affect their actions a lot more, so they'll start
thinking about withdrawing a from combat bit sooner than they normally do.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 15:25:04 2002
According to Meph, on Mon, 21 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> In my sort experience with my group (experienced role-players, who are
> usually DAMN good and competent). Combat is VERY deadly! Unless you're
> a troll with a TON of armor, even a light pistol can kill in but two to
> three shots! that's deadly!

Looks like you have a somewhat different experience with SR than I do :)
Ten years of playing this game have taught me that SR is deadly if you have
no armor and the opponent is moderately-skilled, but if you are reasonably
armored you can take a few shots without dying -- and use the time between
those shots to kill the enemy or flee.

Of course, if I had it my way (and thought it was possible) I'd use Phoenix
Command to run SR combats -- if you've never heard of that, it's one of
those systems where after your first firefight, you will always try to
either 1) ambush the enemy and kill them all before they return fire, or 2)
avoid firefights at all cost :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 16:00:01 2002
On Mon, 21 Jan 2002, Gurth wrote:

> In my experience, players continue acting as if nothing is wrong even if they
> have a Serious wound; they fail their rolls a bit more often, but not
> all that much, but that's about it.

In my games people will burn Karma to avoid taking even Light
wounds, as it often spells the end, especially early in a combat or run
that may involve later combat.

> The main reason I'm thinking about increasing the penalties is to make
> a wound affect their actions a lot more, so they'll start thinking
> about withdrawing a from combat bit sooner than they normally do.

The biggest change I made was to apply the wound mod to their
movement speed (i.e. their Quickness) *before* applying the running
modifier. So getting wounded *really* slows you down. They hate it, but
grudgingly admit that it makes sense.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
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David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 16:05:01 2002
> The biggest change I made was to apply the wound mod to their
> movement speed (i.e. their Quickness) *before* applying the running
> modifier. So getting wounded *really* slows you down. They hate it, but
> grudgingly admit that it makes sense.
>

Bah just implement the exceptional wound table...you take a serious your leg
gets blown off below the knee. What do you mean you wanna run away? You can
hobble, but dat's it... :-)
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 16:15:01 2002
On Mon, 21 Jan 2002, Jonathan wrote:

> Bah just implement the exceptional wound table...you take a serious your leg
> gets blown off below the knee. What do you mean you wanna run away? You can
> hobble, but dat's it... :-)

Perhaps, but this fails to take into account all of the effects of
lesser wounds - punctured lungs reducing your wind, bleeding making you
dizzy, broken bones or dislocated joints. A compound fracture of your
tibia isn't immediately life threatening (so long as it doesn't puncture a
major vein or artery), and thus would classify as a Moderate wound at
best. But try running on it.

Marc
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 19:05:01 2002
>Beforing GMing, my bro-in-law and
>I had three different combats to see how things worked. A mage vs a
physad!
>We had three different combats, each only lasted only initiative round. By
>the end of everyone's actins for the round, one of us was dead! It was
>crazy!

I remeber that seeming the case to me when I started playing, but then I
realised its circumstantial. If you have two skilled opponants in the open
trading shots (or punches, or spells)- yeah, its lethal. Simple realism, if
nobody has anywhere to hide, two folks with guns will result in one dying,
and fast if either knows how to shoot. That's gang-banger style street
combat- two guys whip out guns when they see eachother at short range, and
one (or both) dies.

However, combats last longer once players and GM's realise that, and start
playing cant and mouse games and so on. Even a relatively static fight can
last a fairly long time if somebody pops off a smoke grenade and some
flashpacks, and everybody is hiding behind whatever cover they can find.
Which is exactly the circumstances that lead to long gun battles in real
life, afaik.

As to injury mods, I do think they are reasonable as is. Assuming you only
take physical damage, the penalty for being near mortally wounded is +3;
serious wound, up to 9 boxes. The penalty for attempting to use some piece
of equipment you have no expereince with (+4, defaulting to attributte) is
only slightly higher. A wound that is garunteed NOT to kill you is
certainly painful, but I do think it would be easier to do something you've
trained in with the wound than to do it when you are OK but have never
trained.

In our daily expereince, a little pain is very irritating and distracting,
and seems to prevent us from doing all sorts of things. However, thats a by
choice- not because our bodies can't manage it. Especially under combat
conditions, people often outright ignore some really horrible wounds,
because of adrenaline.

-Mongoose
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 19:20:01 2002
In my experience, players continue acting as if nothing is wrong even if
they
have a Serious wound; they fail their rolls a bit more often, but not all
that
much, but that's about it. The main reason I'm thinking about increasing the
penalties is to make a wound affect their actions a lot more, so they'll
start
thinking about withdrawing a from combat bit sooner than they normally do.

--
Gurth@******.nl

++++++++++++++++++++

Gurth- what you need there is not (just) wound penalties. What you need is
real-life effects on what the person can do, which is largely stat based. A
person with a serious wound can not usually carry heavy weights (strenght
based encuberance limits are not affected by injury mods), they can't
usually run, they can't jump anywhere near thier normal max distance
(jumping tests aren't affected, but stat based distance limits aren't). And
so on...

However, I do think they could proabably shoot a gun about as accurately as
normal (assuming they weren't also trying to run or carry a load). I think
they could negotiate nearly as well, or use a computer about as well as
thier distracted condition will allow.

IMO, the injury mods to tests are fine. Its the complete lack of any
adjustment to non-test based abiliaties that results in people thinking
wounds don't afect SR characters enough.

Not an easy thing to write hard fast rules for- I know from expereince....

-Seb
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Mon Jan 21 20:00:01 2002
>Of course, if I had it my way (and thought it was possible) I'd use Phoenix
>Command to run SR combats -- if you've never heard of that, it's one of
>those systems where after your first firefight, you will always try to
>either 1) ambush the enemy and kill them all before they return fire, or 2)
>avoid firefights at all cost :)


Actually I am WELL aware of Phoenix Command. Hated by all players who have
used it! :> The first time a GM ran PC rules it was against our SUPERHERO
characters. Well, our mutant powers were USELESS against the ONE sniper on
top of 7-11! Three characters were killed, one with a shattered leg and one
with a collostemy bag! It was horrible! But the GM loved it!

Meph
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 03:55:01 2002
Gurth writes:

> In my experience, players continue acting as if nothing is wrong even if
> they have a Serious wound; they fail their rolls a bit more often, but not
> all that much, but that's about it. The main reason I'm thinking about
> increasing the penalties is to make a wound affect their actions a lot
> more, so they'll start thinking about withdrawing a from combat bit sooner
> than they normally do.

Something else that you might want to consider is the fact that people have
a tendancy to pass out if they get badly hurt. In SR, it's possible to fight
until you drop dead. I have a house rule for this:

5.24 CONSCIOUSNESS

I use a variation on the M&M Consciousness rule (p 131) developed by my
players (thanks Smart Geoff, Incubus, Farting Monster, Darryl, and Ben).
Whenever a character takes damage and their total number of wound boxes
(both Physical and Stun) exceeds their Willpower, they must check to see if
they remain conscious. They make a Willpower Test with a TN equal to the
total number of boxes of damage (both Physical and Stun) that they have.
This Test must be made each time the character sustains damage (either
Physical or Stun). There are no additional penalties, as described in
Effects of Retaining Consciousness (p 132 M&M), for already being over
Deadly Stun or Physical damage. Also, working in reverse, this Test is made
each time a character's damage is reduced, to see if they regain
consciousness.

Pain resisting methods that subtract their Rating from the user's Condition
Monitors to determine injury modifiers function in exactly the same way with
regard to Consciousness Checks. Thus, a character who subtracts 4 boxes from
both Condition Monitors to determine injury modifiers also subtracts 4 boxes
from both Condition Modifiers to determine the need and TN for Consciousness
Checks. A Pain Editor allows a character to remain conscious until they
exceed a Deadly Physical wound, plus their natural Body Attribute. However,
they still suffer from Disablement (p 132 M&M). Characters who retain
consciousness while on a Deadly Stun or Physical wound, and still suffer
Deadly wound modifiers from them after modification for pain resisting
methods, suffer the penalties described in Effects of Retaining
Consciousness (p 132 M&M).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 04:20:01 2002
>Gurth writes:
>
> > In my experience, players continue acting as if nothing is wrong even if
> > they have a Serious wound; they fail their rolls a bit more often, but
>not
> > all that much, but that's about it. The main reason I'm thinking about
> > increasing the penalties is to make a wound affect their actions a lot
> > more, so they'll start thinking about withdrawing a from combat bit
>sooner
> > than they normally do.
>

Make the combats tougher, so that the failed rolls count for something.

Jane


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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 04:35:01 2002
> I use a variation on the M&M Consciousness rule (p 131) developed by
my
> players (thanks Smart Geoff, Incubus, Farting Monster, Darryl, and
Ben).

Yeah, thanks heaps, since I'm the one who generally collapses
unconcious if I take S worth of damage. I agree that the wound mods
are already harsh enough as it is though, I tend to try and survive
once I get wounded at all, withdrawing from the fight (though that
often doesn't help me when the others decide to knock stuff my way).
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 06:00:01 2002
According to Marc Renouf, on Mon, 21 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> The biggest change I made was to apply the wound mod to their
> movement speed (i.e. their Quickness) *before* applying the running
> modifier. So getting wounded *really* slows you down. They hate it, but
> grudgingly admit that it makes sense.

I've been using that for a couple of years, too. Maybe increasing the wound
penalties on top of this is a bit severe, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 06:00:03 2002
According to Meph, on Tue, 22 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> Actually I am WELL aware of Phoenix Command. Hated by all players who
> have used it! :>

It's the kind of system only lunatic die-hards seem willing to use, yeah...

> The first time a GM ran PC rules it was against our
> SUPERHERO characters. Well, our mutant powers were USELESS against the
> ONE sniper on top of 7-11! Three characters were killed, one with a
> shattered leg and one with a collostemy bag! It was horrible! But the
> GM loved it!

*grin* Superhero RPG players may not be the ideal audience for PCCS, no :)
But if there's one thing a PCCS game teaches you, it's that you can't
simply stand there, blasting away at the opposition with an FA weapon, and
hope to come out alive. I find systems like this to be a handy training aid
for other RPGs :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 06:00:06 2002
According to Sebastian Wiers, on Tue, 22 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> IMO, the injury mods to tests are fine. Its the complete lack of any
> adjustment to non-test based abiliaties that results in people thinking
> wounds don't afect SR characters enough.
>
> Not an easy thing to write hard fast rules for- I know from expereince....

Maybe extending the use of the wound modifiers would help. Like Marc said, and
I've been doing for a couple of years now too, applying them to Quickness to
determine a character's speed helps. It's only a small step to apply them to
_all_ attributes in situations where the attribute rating is only an indicator
rather than a number of dice rolled. You mentioned Strength for carrying
purposes, which is a good example. Having Strength 4 with a light wound means
you can only carry 15 kg without being encumbered anymore, for instance.

The basic rule, then, is that in any situation where a character's stats
(attibute, skill, etc.) are used but no dice are rolled, the character's wound
modifier is applied so as to have a negative effect for the PC.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 06:00:10 2002
According to Damion Milliken, on Tue, 22 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> Whenever a character takes damage and their total number of wound boxes
> (both Physical and Stun) exceeds their Willpower, they must check to see
> if they remain conscious.

That just gave me an idea for a major change to SR's damage system (I think
I'm starting to go the Graht route here... ;) Instead of having ten boxes on
the physical and stun condition monitors, you could say that characters can
take an unlimited amount of damage -- in theory. This requires an expansion of
the wound modifiers, as follows:

Boxes Wound Modifier
0 +/-0
1 +/-1
3 +/-2
6 +/-3
10 +/-4
15 +/-5
21 +/-6
28 +/-7
etc. etc.

Now, every time a character takes Stun damage that pushes the number of total
boxes taken over his or her Willpower attribute, roll a Willpower (2) test
with damage modifiers. Failure means the character passes out.

For physical damage, if the damage exceeds the character's Willpower, roll a
Willpower (2) test to remain conscious as above. But if the damage exceeds the
character's Body, a Body (2) test is made as well; failure means the character
is close to dying.

This naturally requires some changes to the rules for overflow damage and
those for healing, but I think this might just work... Thoughts?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 07:55:01 2002
<SNIP>
> The biggest change I made was to apply the wound mod to their
> movement speed (i.e. their Quickness) *before* applying the running
> modifier. So getting wounded *really* slows you down. They
> hate it, but
> grudgingly admit that it makes sense.
>
> Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)
>

Ooooh. I like that rule. We haven't really used precise running
distances much (calculated on quickness) but I think I'll enforce it
from now on. Using such wound modifiers, and you're right, I think it
makes sense, will scare them even more. OR on the flip side, they might
be tempted to wound as many opponents as possible to get a speed
advantage for escape ... will be fun to implement.

But honestly, how many shadowrunners out there leave live opponents
behind unless they have no choice? ;-)
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 09:30:04 2002
>*grin* Superhero RPG players may not be the ideal audience for PCCS, no :)
>But if there's one thing a PCCS game teaches you, it's that you can't
>simply stand there, blasting away at the opposition with an FA weapon, and
>hope to come out alive. I find systems like this to be a handy training aid
>for other RPGs :)


Yeah, ever since then I have always ducked and covered when the bullets
start flying! A whole new appreciation to bullets vs flesh! :>

Meph
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 09:45:01 2002
Gurth writes:

> That just gave me an idea for a major change to SR's damage system (I
> think I'm starting to go the Graht route here... ;) Instead of having ten
> boxes on the physical and stun condition monitors, you could say that
> characters can take an unlimited amount of damage -- in theory. This
> requires an expansion of the wound modifiers, as follows:
>
> <snip table>
>
> Now, every time a character takes Stun damage that pushes the number of
> total boxes taken over his or her Willpower attribute, roll a Willpower (2)
> test with damage modifiers. Failure means the character passes out.
>
> For physical damage, if the damage exceeds the character's Willpower, roll
> a Willpower (2) test to remain conscious as above. But if the damage
> exceeds the character's Body, a Body (2) test is made as well; failure
> means the character is close to dying.
>
> This naturally requires some changes to the rules for overflow damage and
> those for healing, but I think this might just work... Thoughts?

One problem that I might mention, which, incidently is also a problem with
my consciousness rules, is that characters get a double bonus if they have a
high Willpower/Body, and a double whammy if they have a low one. ie, by
increasing your Attribute, you not only increase the threshold at which you
have to make the test at all, but you also increase the number of dice that
you get to roll.

I've begun to notice that characters with Willpowers of 1-3 in my games are
more or less taken out of the fight with a Moderate wound. And characters
with a Willpower of 8 or so can pretty much fight until they disintigrate at
10+Body boxes of damage. This spectrum is much more extreme than would be
generated if we used the base SR rules whereby all characters could survive
until 10 boxes of damage, and then the lucky/tough ones could survive a bit
longer.

I think that you would run into a similar problem if you tried to impliment
this rule. Trolls, with their already huge Body Attribute, would become even
more damage resistant (you'd have to do like 15 boxes of damage to make them
even roll for becomming dead ;-)). Weeds with a Body/Willpower of 2 or
something would die if somebody punched them for M damage. A much more
extreme spectrum of results.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 11:00:01 2002
At 11:53 AM 1/22/2002 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>According to Damion Milliken, on Tue, 22 Jan 2002 the word on the street
>was...
>
> > Whenever a character takes damage and their total number of wound boxes
> > (both Physical and Stun) exceeds their Willpower, they must check to see
> > if they remain conscious.
>
>That just gave me an idea for a major change to SR's damage system (I think
>I'm starting to go the Graht route here... ;)

Yes Luke, join the Dark Side... ;)

> Instead of having ten boxes on
>the physical and stun condition monitors, you could say that characters can
>take an unlimited amount of damage -- in theory. This requires an
>expansion of
>the wound modifiers, as follows:
>
>Boxes Wound Modifier
>0 +/-0
>1 +/-1
>3 +/-2
>6 +/-3
>10 +/-4
>15 +/-5
>21 +/-6
>28 +/-7
>etc. etc.

hmmm.. How about:

Boxes Wound Modifier
0 +/-0
1 +/-1
3 +/-2
6 +/-3
10 +/-4
11 +/-5
12 +/-6
13 +/-7
14 +/-8
15 +/-9
etc. etc.

This solves the problem of the high Willpower characters.

>Now, every time a character takes Stun damage that pushes the number of total
>boxes taken over his or her Willpower attribute, roll a Willpower (2) test
>with damage modifiers. Failure means the character passes out.

I'd just have them make a Willpower test vs their current Damage
Modifier. I would also have them make additional tests any time they do
anything strenuous. If they are suffering from Deadly damage (10 or more
boxes), then I would have them make a consciousness test every round.

>For physical damage, if the damage exceeds the character's Willpower, roll a
>Willpower (2) test to remain conscious as above. But if the damage exceeds
>the
>character's Body, a Body (2) test is made as well; failure means the
>character
>is close to dying.
>
>This naturally requires some changes to the rules for overflow damage and
>those for healing, but I think this might just work... Thoughts?

I would leave the current death rule as is. If damage exceeds 10 + Body,
then they're dead (but given medical assistance (CPR until they get to an
emergency room) or a quick Heal spell, they can be saved). I have a house
rule that if physical damage exceeds 10 + 2 * Body, then there is no chance
to save them (there's just to much damage).

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Will)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 13:45:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>



> The basic rule, then, is that in any situation where a character's stats
> (attibute, skill, etc.) are used but no dice are rolled, the character's
wound
> modifier is applied so as to have a negative effect for the PC.

Hey Gurth, shouldn´t you use that for NPCs as well ? :PPP
Evil GM you are, ahn ?!

Will,
nitpicking as usual
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 13:45:04 2002
According to Graht, on Tue, 22 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> hmmm.. How about:
>
> Boxes Wound Modifier
> 0 +/-0
> 1 +/-1
> 3 +/-2
> 6 +/-3
> 10 +/-4
> 11 +/-5
> 12 +/-6
> 13 +/-7
> 14 +/-8
> 15 +/-9
> etc. etc.
>
> This solves the problem of the high Willpower characters.

Yes, but it changes the progression drastically. I think it would have to
stay about the same for the existing modifiers, but not change too much for
the other ones. Maybe dividing the boxes by 3 (rounding down, but with a
minimum modifier of +/-1 if you're wounded at all) would work.

> >Now, every time a character takes Stun damage that pushes the number of
> > total boxes taken over his or her Willpower attribute, roll a Willpower
> > (2) test with damage modifiers. Failure means the character passes out.
>
> I'd just have them make a Willpower test vs their current Damage
> Modifier.

That makes it even easier on high-Willpower characters, though. At least
this way they can fail without fumbling the roll, because they'll always be
rolling against 3 or higher. Using only the wound mod as the TN, the only
way to go unconscious at Light or Moderate wound levels is by rolling all
ones.

> I would also have them make additional tests any time they do
> anything strenuous. If they are suffering from Deadly damage (10 or more
> boxes), then I would have them make a consciousness test every round.

Actually, I wouldn't -- that's the main idea behind this system. The test
represents surviving the initial shock from taking a wound, but after that
you're (relatively) safe. Unless I manage to bolt a rule for bleeding onto
it, of course :)

> I would leave the current death rule as is. If damage exceeds 10 + Body,
> then they're dead (but given medical assistance (CPR until they get to an
> emergency room) or a quick Heal spell, they can be saved).

My main idea behind these house rules was to remove the cap on the damage
system, so I don't want to do that :) By not having characters die at 10
boxes, they'll be able to keep going for much longer -- provided they roll
well. But there's also a good chance they'll die much sooner, making combat
much more dangerous. It means the players can't count on stuff like "I only
have a Moderate now, and they're shooting light pistols at us, so I don't
need to worry yet."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 14:30:01 2002
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>

>Has anyone ever played with increased damage modifiers, and if so, >what
>was the conclusion resulting from the experiment?
>The reason I'm asking is because I'm thinking of doing just that for >my
>next SR campaign (whenever that may be), in order to make wounds >hurt
>instead of be an inconvenience. I'm thinking of either doubling >the
>existing modifiers (to +2/+4/+6) or making them +1/+3/+5. In >either case,
>doing stuff while wounded becomes a lot more difficult >than it is with the
>standard modifiers, so I figure it may be better >to ask for other people's
>experience before trying this myself :)

I would not suggest changing the actual penalties, as they are already
pretty nasty. Especially if you have Stun and Physical damage building up.
--a fact that makes the trauma damper bioware a mixed blessing in the latter
stages of a fight, but don't tell your players ;> -- Instead of changing
the penalties, change the description. It is a little more work for the GM,
but it makes injuries scary. Examples:
--Joe Runner is walking down a street and a ganger takes a pot shot at him
with a nice rifle. Murphy frags Joe over and the successes all seem to go
to the ganger. Joe takes a Serious wound. Joe's trauma damper makes it 5
physical and 1 stun. +3 to all TN, moving on, righ? Nope. The bullet tore
through Joe's light armor and into his right lung. Joe is having trouble
breathing and feels woozy (hence the penalties), but Joe is also still
bleeding internaly, and needs a medkit applied properly ASAP. Every minute
he does not get help, he loses an alternating health level; first stun, then
physical. All athletics tests for physical exertion are at double
penalties.
--Joe Runner is cornered by three gang memebers (they all hate him) and uses
his handy ko dachi to attack one of them. His augmented strenth and
superior skill drive the blade through his opponents guard, cutting through
the ganger's arm ad deep into his side. The ganger has taken a Serious
wound. +3 to TN, moving on, right? Nope. The ganger has lost an arm and
is still bleeding profusely. If he makes no attempt to stop the bleeding he
loses a health level each combat turn. He also cannot do anything that
requires two hands, and lost any weapon he held in that hand. His unarmed
combat is penalized double penalties because he is not trained to fight with
one arm tied behind his back...despite his early trash talk.
Situational penalties and graphic wound description will help make players
take the wounds more seriously. Big time. I have used this method for
about 5 years, and my players are never blase about injuries. If you find
your imagination taxed at a given moment, Blackjack's SR page has a great
article on exactly this, with descriptions and suggested situational
modifiers. It may be in the Archive under Blackjack's Corner too.
(--memory lapse--)
Enjoy...your players will ;>
Kori

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Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 15:15:01 2002
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>

>*grin* Superhero RPG players may not be the ideal audience for PCCS, > no
>:)
>But if there's one thing a PCCS game teaches you, it's that you can't
>simply stand there, blasting away at the opposition with an FA
>weapon, and hope to come out alive. I find systems like this to be a
>handy training aid for other RPGs :)

A hour or so of paintball would teach some invaluable (and inexpensive)
lessons to any gamer. Assuming you are not playing to see how much paint
you can wear; but actually have a penalty for getting hit (like having to
sit the remainder of the round out), the importance of cover and stealth are
very clearly brought home. You cannot just stand up and trade shots or you
are both "dead". At a field near my home, they have a game where you have a
strict limit on ammo per round (100 rounds, usually). If you are hit in
the head or torso, they take it all away for the round; you are "dead". Leg
and arm hits, you lose half your remaining ammo. It is a pretty neat
system, but it requires one field judge for every two or three players. You
hollar that your hit, and the judge checks. The guy that shot you does not
know if you are out or not, because they leave you out there with you gun.
He has to wonder if you have full ammo, some ammo, or no ammo. Since
"injuries" subtract ammo, wild shooting is not wise. People pick their
shots, and use cover. My gamers have been a lot smarter about concepts like
cover, movement, cover fire, overlapping fire, and friendly fire. Always
keep your head down, and NEVER run in front of the guy who is covering you.
;)
Kori

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Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 15:35:01 2002
At 20:18 22.01.2002 +0000, Ice Heart wrote:

<snip>

>A hour or so of paintball would teach some invaluable (and inexpensive)
>lessons to any gamer.

I'd love to to do that, but paintball gaming is considered to be a Nazi
militia-training here :(

Arclight
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Tue Jan 22 16:05:00 2002
> The basic rule, then, is that in any situation where a character's
stats
> (attibute, skill, etc.) are used but no dice are rolled, the
character's wound
> modifier is applied so as to have a negative effect for the PC.

That's basically the way Earthdawn does it, with wound mods taking
that many steps away from everything except healing I believe.
Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 05:40:04 2002
According to Will, on Tue, 22 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> > modifier is applied so as to have a negative effect for the PC.
>
> Hey Gurth, shouldn´t you use that for NPCs as well ? :PPP

Of course not! What kind of GM do you take me for? ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 05:40:09 2002
According to Arclight, on Tue, 22 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> I'd love to to do that, but paintball gaming is considered to be a Nazi
> militia-training here :(

What about laser tag? If you go there with a group at a time when not a lot
of other people would be looking to play, you can probably have the field
for yourself and see about teaching your players some tactics.

Another idea my group had at one point, during a spell of hot weather a few
summers back, was to use water pistols. Sure, ranges will be short, but
even if you can only shoot for five meters you'll appreciate cover.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 05:40:15 2002
According to Meph, on Tue, 22 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> Yeah, ever since then I have always ducked and covered when the
> bullets start flying! A whole new appreciation to bullets vs flesh! :>

Especially with the Advanced Damage Tables, though it's already nasty
enough without those :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 05:40:21 2002
According to Damion Milliken, on Tue, 22 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> One problem that I might mention, which, incidently is also a problem
> with my consciousness rules, is that characters get a double bonus if
> they have a high Willpower/Body, and a double whammy if they have a low
> one. ie, by increasing your Attribute, you not only increase the
> threshold at which you have to make the test at all, but you also
> increase the number of dice that you get to roll.

True, and some more thinking about this problem last night gave me a solution,
which at the same time reduces the number of dice rolls necessary: roll a
normal Damage Resistance Test, and if the highest-rolling die on that is less
than the total number of boxes of damage taken (not just from this wound) on
the applicable Condition Monitor, you pass out (for Stun damage) or start
dying (for physical damage).

That only leaves the possibility of passing out from physical damage. So now
I'm thinking that, if you roll one success on the Body test, you're
unconscious or otherwise incapacitated (but not dying), while if you get two
or more you stay conscious and able to act.

> I think that you would run into a similar problem if you tried to
> impliment this rule. Trolls, with their already huge Body Attribute,
> would become even more damage resistant (you'd have to do like 15 boxes
> of damage to make them even roll for becomming dead ;-)). Weeds with a
> Body/Willpower of 2 or something would die if somebody punched them for M
> damage. A much more extreme spectrum of results.

True, and hopefully the adjustments I made above will change that a bit. By
having everyone check for death/unconsciousness for every wound taken,
regardless of their Attribute ratings, you can also take really tough trolls
down if they roll badly enough.

Now all I need to do is test it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 08:35:01 2002
>Something else that you might want to consider is the fact that people have
>a tendancy to pass out if they get badly hurt.

I beleive that would (in SR) be a situation where the person took stun
damage and was knocked out. Many things that cause stun damage in SR are
not so easy to recover from in real life. Indeed, almost all real life
injuries would be a combination of stun and physical injury; Shadowrun
almost alwyas aplies only one at a time.

>In SR, it's possible to fight
>until you drop dead.

Not true; there's the whole body overflow thing. Indead, unless you use
optional overdamge rules, its very unlikely that anybody will "fight until
dead", unless they get badly wounded twice in a row, such as adding 10 boxes
(deadly) on top of already having 6 (serious) or so.

-Mongoose
Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 08:35:03 2002
Maybe extending the use of the wound modifiers would help. Like Marc said,
and
I've been doing for a couple of years now too, applying them to Quickness to
determine a character's speed helps. It's only a small step to apply them to
_all_ attributes in situations where the attribute rating is only an
indicator
rather than a number of dice rolled. You mentioned Strength for carrying
purposes, which is a good example. Having Strength 4 with a light wound
means
you can only carry 15 kg without being encumbered anymore, for instance.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The problem is, that breaks down badly at the low end, and has little effect
at the top end.

Granted, there' aren't many Shadowrun characters with a 1 strength, but
certainly som real life people qualify (fasion models, maybe). A light
wound would completely diasbale them (they could not carry thier clothes-
hmm, I'm liking this rule- naw). Its not uncommon for a character to take
maybe moderate stun and a light physical, and I think the average person
(strenght / quickenss 3) would not be strongly affected. On the other hand,
a juiced up samurai with a 9 strenght would still be quite strong after
taking a serious wound- as stong as any normal human!

Hmm, here's a different tack- reduce stat related performace by 10 percent
for each box on the highest wound track. Moderate stun, light physical 30% slower
movement and carrying capacity. Simple, universal, and
believable (a serious wound WOULD reduce capabilites by 60%, I think). Gee,
that was easier than I thought...

-Mongoose
Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 08:40:01 2002
Gurth writes:

> True, and some more thinking about this problem last night gave me a
> solution, which at the same time reduces the number of dice rolls
> necessary: roll a normal Damage Resistance Test, and if the
> highest-rolling die on that is less than the total number of boxes of
> damage taken (not just from this wound) on the applicable Condition
> Monitor, you pass out (for Stun damage) or start dying (for physical
> damage).

Isn't there already some rule in M&M about if the highest roll doesn't equal
or exceed the number of boxes of Physical damage taken? Something to do with
cyberware stress? (I never use it - it's too tricky to remember, and seems
to add additional more or less uneccesary calculations into the already long
damage resistance process. Besides, Adepts already kick butt over
cybergoons, so why make cybergoons any worse by screwing over their cyber?)
Otherwise, this rule might work quite well.

> That only leaves the possibility of passing out from physical damage. So
> now I'm thinking that, if you roll one success on the Body test, you're
> unconscious or otherwise incapacitated (but not dying), while if you get
> two or more you stay conscious and able to act.

But with 2 successes, you actually stage the damage down, so the number of
boxes of damage is reduced, too. Maybe you could just have it that no
successes means you're KO'd, and 1 means that you take the full damage but
are conscious.

> True, and hopefully the adjustments I made above will change that a bit.
> By having everyone check for death/unconsciousness for every wound taken,
> regardless of their Attribute ratings, you can also take really tough
> trolls down if they roll badly enough.

I still think that you'll have Trolls running around and not even be dying,
let alone unconscious, on like 20 boxes of damage or something. A Troll
with a Body of around 15 is quite likely to get at least one very high die
in any given Body Test.

The other problem that I can see here is that it's quite easy to roll no
successes in a Body Test if the Power of the attack is high, even if the
Damage Level is Light (say, a thrown knife hurled at you by a Troll). By
your rules, most people would be KO'd by a Light wound, because they'd not
get a single success. Other than this, the "no Body successes on a Damage
Resistance Test = KO'd" seems a very good rule.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 42
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 08:50:01 2002
Sebastian Wiers writes:

> I beleive that would (in SR) be a situation where the person took stun
> damage and was knocked out. Many things that cause stun damage in SR are
> not so easy to recover from in real life. Indeed, almost all real life
> injuries would be a combination of stun and physical injury; Shadowrun
> almost alwyas aplies only one at a time.

Yes, that is a problem with the SR damage system. I've toyed with a couple
of fixes, but they usually ended up being far to complicated to want to use,
or extremely dangerous for characters. OTOH, isn't it somewhat common for
people to be injured nowadays and pass out, but not die at all, and then to
wake up shortly afterwards? They're certainly not on Deadly Physical (as
with that you're comatose for quite some days). But it seems a bit odd that,
say, being stabbed would do all that much Stun damage to a person,
especially enough to account for a Deadly SR Stun as well as a Physical
wound. But being stabbed can cause a person to lose consciousness, still.

> Not true; there's the whole body overflow thing. Indead, unless you use
> optional overdamge rules, its very unlikely that anybody will "fight until
> dead", unless they get badly wounded twice in a row, such as adding 10
> boxes (deadly) on top of already having 6 (serious) or so.

Or unless they make their consciousness rolls to remain conscious at a
Deadly. It happens quite often in my games...

OTOH, it's quite likely for a combatant in SR to fight until they get to
Deadly or a bit over, and then die in 3-9 seconds from bleeding. For all
intents and purposes, such a person "fought until they died", as barring
serious medical intervention from persons already present, they'll be dead
before anyone gets a chance to check their pulse.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 43
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 13:45:01 2002
According to Sebastian Wiers, on Wed, 23 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> Granted, there' aren't many Shadowrun characters with a 1 strength, but
> certainly som real life people qualify (fasion models, maybe). A light
> wound would completely diasbale them (they could not carry thier clothes-
> hmm, I'm liking this rule- naw).

That is true, however for the Quickness reduction I've always used the rule
that it can't go below 1 due to modifiers, so the character can at least still
move; the same would be easily implemented for Strength. Granted, this means
that it doesn't have any effect on Quickness or Strength 1 characters, but
like you said yourself, you don't get too many characters with those sorts of
stats anyway.

> Hmm, here's a different tack- reduce stat related performace by 10
> percent for each box on the highest wound track. Moderate stun, light
> physical = 30% slower movement and carrying capacity. Simple, universal,
> and believable (a serious wound WOULD reduce capabilites by 60%, I
> think). Gee, that was easier than I thought...

I think this is worth testing sometime, yes...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 44
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 13:45:04 2002
According to Damion Milliken, on Wed, 23 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> Isn't there already some rule in M&M about if the highest roll doesn't
> equal or exceed the number of boxes of Physical damage taken? Something
> to do with cyberware stress? (I never use it - it's too tricky to
> remember, and seems to add additional more or less uneccesary
> calculations into the already long damage resistance process. Besides,
> Adepts already kick butt over cybergoons, so why make cybergoons any
> worse by screwing over their cyber?) Otherwise, this rule might work
> quite well.

That rule is in M&M, yes, and although it's a bit of a bother to remember at
first, once you do it works well enough (another good job by Mongoose, IMHO :)
and doesn't really slow play down until someone rolls too low. And it screws
over adepts, too, because they can suffer attribute stress; if it bothers you
that their chance of stress is lower than for a street sam, then you could
always simply change it slightly so that a stress result means you keep
rolling until you get something the character does have.

> But with 2 successes, you actually stage the damage down, so the number
> of boxes of damage is reduced, too.

I'm not sure this would really be a problem, though I think only playtesting
will really prove it either way.

> I still think that you'll have Trolls running around and not even be
> dying, let alone unconscious, on like 20 boxes of damage or something. A
> Troll with a Body of around 15 is quite likely to get at least one very
> high die in any given Body Test.

I'm not so sure of that... With 20 boxes of damage, that troll would have to
roll a 20 to stay alive. The chance of that isn't all that high, IME.

> The other problem that I can see here is that it's quite easy to roll no
> successes in a Body Test if the Power of the attack is high, even if the
> Damage Level is Light (say, a thrown knife hurled at you by a Troll). By
> your rules, most people would be KO'd by a Light wound, because they'd
> not get a single success.

No, they'd stay conscious -- because they need to roll a 1 to stay conscious
from a Light wound. It has nothing to do with the Power Level, only with the
number of boxes of damage marked off on the Condition Monitor.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 45
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Wed Jan 23 15:20:01 2002
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>

> > Indeed, almost all real life injuries would be a combination of > stun
>and physical injury; Shadowrun almost alwyas aplies only one
> > at a time.

>Yes, that is a problem with the SR damage system. I've toyed with a couple
>of fixes, but they usually ended up being far to complicated
>to want to use, or extremely dangerous for characters.


I have played pretty fast (but tight) with damage rules for the last two
years. I really dislike, for instance, the way explosions are handled in
SR2. (remember, I am the recalcitrant 2nd Ed GM, so I am SR3 clueless :>
) I read an extensive SWAT report on hydrostatic shock, overpressure, and
other goodies a couple of years ago. It changed my approach to applying
damage somewhat. For example: a concussion grenade does only stun damage?
no longer. I take a number of factors into account, including distance from
the blast and obstacles. I call for two damage resistance tests. One is
physical and one is stun. If either test is likely to be entirely resisted
without aid of karma rerolls, I scrap it and tell the player "you are rocked
by the blast and your right ear won't stop ringing"...moving on. If a
concussion grenade goes off in your lap however, count on taking both stun
and physical damage. Both still get impact armor for resistance.
Fragmentation grenades are a little different, as the shrapnel is resisted
with ballistic armor. The meter/second on the fragments easily justifies
this. The ration is different as well. Where the main damage is stun and
the secondary is physical with a concussion grenade, it is reversed for a
fragmentation grenade. Something like white phosphorus, with an incendiary
component is really nasty because you can resist all the direct damage and
then pass out from the lack of available air. In enclosed areas, I take
into account the oxygen loss from sudden ignition. Yes, fireball is
dangerous to a mage if tossed ina small room, unless he was prepared for the
lack of air that would result. All this led to my scrapping the blast
bounce rules from the SR main book and going more free form. I just examine
the area and ask for extra rolls to resist stun if the overpressure would be
relevant. An alley, for instance, does not present as much trouble as a
sewer tunnel. The blast will go largely up, saving the person on the ground
from most of the overpressure. I think any GM who is comfortable with the
rules should try free-forming a little and see if logic doesn't make for
better game mechanics. If the players complain, let them know that this
will
A: speed things up a lot &
B: apply to NPCs as well
(I rarely roll for my average NPCs in a battle anyway...lob a grenade at an
NPC and he stays down even if he is alive...he is not getting paid enough to
eat two of those. I tend to run it with the statistics...4 Bod, 4 Impact,
10S, 1 meters...hmmm...looks like a hospital stay to me...morgue or ICU
makes little difference for the purposes of the battle at hand. Same goes
for bullets and spells...only really heroic/foolish/desperate NPCs keep
coming after they have more than 5 or 6 boxes of damage, ever.)

Makes combat run fast anyway :)
Kori

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
Message no. 46
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Thu Jan 24 02:40:01 2002
Gurth writes:

> That rule is in M&M, yes, and although it's a bit of a bother to remember
> at first, once you do it works well enough (another good job by Mongoose,
> IMHO :) and doesn't really slow play down until someone rolls too low.

<grin> After all this time of playing, we've only just (as in 2 months or
so) started to use the knockback rules. Knockback was just another annoying
dice roll to be made during combat, which took far too long as it already
was. It's taken us this long to get familiar enough with the rules and flow
of combat (hey, players change fairly regularly at the club I GM at, so
there was always people who didn't even know how to work out TNs, let alone
all the rest) to think about incorporating an additional step. It'll
probably be another 13 years or so before we try the next one ;-).

> And it screws over adepts, too, because they can suffer attribute stress;
> if it bothers you that their chance of stress is lower than for a street
> sam, then you could always simply change it slightly so that a stress
> result means you keep rolling until you get something the character does
> have.

Yeah, that might work, I guess.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 47
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Thu Jan 24 15:45:00 2002
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
> Has anyone ever played with increased damage modifiers, and if so, what was
> the conclusion resulting from the experiment?

Nope, but have toyed with the idea, although mostly for initiative.

> The reason I'm asking is because I'm thinking of doing just that for my
> next SR campaign (whenever that may be), in order to make wounds hurt
> instead of be an inconvenience. I'm thinking of either doubling the
> existing modifiers (to +2/+4/+6) or making them +1/+3/+5. In either case,
> doing stuff while wounded becomes a lot more difficult than it is with the
> standard modifiers, so I figure it may be better to ask for other people's
> experience before trying this myself :)

I think the penalties to T# are ok, but the penalties to Initiative are
useless. -1 dosn't do much, and only once in a while will you loose an action
because of the penalty. I have toyed with the idea of the Initiative penalties
being dice, until you are down to 1D6, and then regular -1 after that.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 48
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Thu Jan 24 22:20:02 2002
>> Has anyone ever played with increased damage modifiers, and if so, what
was
>> the conclusion resulting from the experiment?
>
>Nope, but have toyed with the idea, although mostly for initiative.

An option I proposed for SR3 playtesting was that injury modifieres incresed
the amount of time that passes between a characters multiple actions.
Instead of just taking 10 off a character's intiative between passes, you
would take off 10 plus any wound related TN mods. This way, faster ones
would loose actions to wounds more often, which evens the odds some, and
only makes sense.
For example, normally a character with an intiaive of 29 would normally act
on 29, then in the second pass on 19, then in the third on 9. With a
serious wound, he'd act on 26, 16, and 6- still 3 actions, and still always
acting ahead of anybody who rolled less than a 26.
With the option I proposed, a character who rolled a 29 but had a serious
wound would act in only two passes, on 26 and 13, getting only 2 actions.
An uninjured person who had rolled a 24 would act in three passes, on 24,
14, and 4- getting more actions, and actually acting BEFORE the "faster"
character in the second pass (14 vs 13).

-Seb
Message no. 49
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Fri Jan 25 01:05:01 2002
Sebastian Wiers writes:

> An option I proposed for SR3 playtesting was that injury modifieres incresed
> the amount of time that passes between a characters multiple actions.

This seems to be a fairly sensible rule to me. Although combining it with
the negative to Initiative as you did in the example is a little harsh,
perhaps. I can see that it might have been deemed too complicated, though,
as it does require a bit more calculation than normal. OTOH, at least it
makes injury a factor in initiative, which it often isn't at the moment.

Although, to be honest, getting a -3 to Initiative is probably a bigger
effect than Lars feels. Sure, it will only rarely lose you an action, but
since in SR most Initiative boosters progress in +2+1D6 style format, having
a small reduction will usually mean that you act _after_ your opposition,
more likely than not. This can be devastatingly dangerous.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 50
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Fri Jan 25 05:55:06 2002
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Thu, 24 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> I think the penalties to T# are ok, but the penalties to Initiative are
> useless. -1 dosn't do much, and only once in a while will you loose an
> action because of the penalty. I have toyed with the idea of the
> Initiative penalties being dice, until you are down to 1D6, and then
> regular -1 after that.

That's also a good idea. Or maybe subtract the initiative penalty from every die
rolled, so a street sam with 10+3D6 and a Moderate wound is down to 4+3D6. Not as
severe as your idea, but it makes the penalty much more noticable.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 51
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Damage modifiers
Date: Fri Feb 1 08:40:01 2002
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
> Sebastian Wiers writes:
>
> > An option I proposed for SR3 playtesting was that injury modifieres incresed
> > the amount of time that passes between a characters multiple actions.
>
> This seems to be a fairly sensible rule to me. Although combining it with
> the negative to Initiative as you did in the example is a little harsh,
> perhaps. I can see that it might have been deemed too complicated, though,
> as it does require a bit more calculation than normal. OTOH, at least it
> makes injury a factor in initiative, which it often isn't at the moment.

If you only add the initiative modifier to the amount of time between passes,
and don't subtract the modifier from base initiative, then initiative modifier
won't have any effect on people that roll 10 or less on their initiative roll.

That's why you need both.

> Although, to be honest, getting a -3 to Initiative is probably a bigger
> effect than Lars feels.

It's no something I feel, it's something that have bothered me ever since SR1.
I've tried lot's of different solutions, but nothing as simple, and effective,
as Seb's suggestion. It's going to part of my house rule from now on.

> Sure, it will only rarely lose you an action, but
> since in SR most Initiative boosters progress in +2+1D6 style format, having
> a small reduction will usually mean that you act _after_ your opposition,
> more likely than not. This can be devastatingly dangerous.

But if your are the fastes recting befone injuries, then the effect will still
be minimal after injuries. With an initiative of 30+, who cares about a -1
or -2?

Once your are at -3 your T# will also be at +3 which are far worse.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.

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