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Message no. 1
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Damage spells, magic, fantasy, logic
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:35:56 +0000
Well, the title makes it kinda obvious, doesn't it? :)

Why does damaging magic handle things in a fantasy context rather
than one of logical practicality?

What do I mean by that?

Let me ask a question...

What is the most energy - effective manner of killing someone? (with
magic)

Sending an energy current at a target strong enough to fry his armor,
flesh, organs and cook of all his ammo? This is the method seen in
most fantasy games. (As well as the odd death spell, which no less
brutally and inefficiently rips someone's soul from the body or
whatever).

OR:

Sending an electrical shock through the target's heart, causing a
cardiac arrest and thus killing it.

The answer should be obvious. Now, the game's most effective combat
spell, mana bolt, does massive general tissue damage AFAIK.

Mages aren't stupid. (Well, ok,some of them are). So why do they not
have finely tuned killing spells that kills with a minimum of drain?

The answer I am *NOT* looking for is "game balance".

I will try to answer the question myself, but it is just a try.. here
goes: (Hermetic version, mind; it's logical, explainable, unlike the
shamanic, which is probably similar.).

When a mage casts a spell he mentally inserts a 'tap' into the
barrier between the astral and physical plane; he takes this energy
flow and channels it into a 'construct', a spell, for a specific
predetermined effect.

Drain is twofold. One is in the complexity of the construct; the
finer control needed the more complex, the harder, the construct is
to make. The second is damage from directing large amounts of magical
power through a construct. Thus, casting a spell giving cardiac
arrest would in fact be extremely hard, since the construct itself
would be hard to invoke and channel energy through, while a fireball,
with a rather simple construct, is easy to invoke but takes huge
amounts of energy to fuel. Thus you get the situation where mana
bolts, with a comparatively simple construct and no overt demand for
energy is a better, energy wise, solution than a spell designed to
stop someone's heart. Or controlling someone's actions, while
physically harder than controlling someone's thoughts, is easier
after all because it reuires a simpler construct.


But what about the force of the spell? If you lower it you cast the
spell with less energy as well as with less drain, do you not?. Well,
who says it uses less power? The mage goes easy on the control, uses
the energy sloppily; doesn't go for effect effect effect. It's easier
to cast a spell that way - less mental drain.

What do you think?


Also, about my adept power list a while back (Magic Matrix).. after
reading through the Awakenings and the Grimoire I realize it's plain
old *WRONG*; if anyone wants an updated version just give the word.
But with the feedback I got I doubt many's interested. I asked if it
was anything wrong with it, after all.. :/



--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Damage spells, magic, fantasy, logic
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:33:36 -0600
Fade wrote:
|
[snip]
|
| Why does damaging magic handle things in a fantasy context rather
| than one of logical practicality?
|
[snip]
|
| But what about the force of the spell? If you lower it you cast the
| spell with less energy as well as with less drain, do you not?. Well,
| who says it uses less power? The mage goes easy on the control, uses
| the energy sloppily; doesn't go for effect effect effect. It's easier
| to cast a spell that way - less mental drain.
|
| What do you think?

Um.. I'm sorry, but I read your post several times, and I have no
idea what you're talking about. I was keeping up just fine untill
that last paragraph. Are you saying that casting a spell sloppily
should be easier?

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 3
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Damage spells, magic, fantasy, logic
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:59:09 +0000
> | But what about the force of the spell? If you lower it you cast the
> | spell with less energy as well as with less drain, do you not?. Well,
> | who says it uses less power? The mage goes easy on the control, uses
> | the energy sloppily; doesn't go for effect effect effect. It's easier
> | to cast a spell that way - less mental drain.
> |
> | What do you think?
>
> Um.. I'm sorry, but I read your post several times, and I have no
> idea what you're talking about. I was keeping up just fine untill
> that last paragraph. Are you saying that casting a spell sloppily
> should be easier?

Yes.

What I was trying to say was that a way to look at it is that a mage
sets the energy he takes from the astral for a spell when he designs
the spell. When you cast a spell at 'reduced force' that means you do
not cast it as effectively (you cast it 'sloppily'), with less
concentration, strain, than if you use it at its maximum potential.

You might ask why that is a requirement, or even necessary to
mention. If you look at the rest of the logic chain* then it is the
logical conclusion of this. If it is harder to control a spell, then
when you cast a spell at less than maximum force and also get less
drain, what you do is not use less magical energy, but you use
it less effectively, or else the entire idea falls apart.

* controlling spells is harder than pouring power into them (the area
of effect modification). Therefore casting spells which require a lot
of precise targeting and/or detailed manipulation is harder than
casting spells which attain its effect through brute force.

I hope that helps.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 4
From: Kim Christiansen <kimc@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damage spells, magic, fantasy, logic
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:51:12 +0100
From: Fade
> Subject: Damage spells, magic, fantasy, logic

...cut some stuff here and there...

> Sending an electrical shock through the target's heart, causing a
> cardiac arrest and thus killing it.
> Mages aren't stupid. (Well, ok,some of them are). So why do they not
> have finely tuned killing spells that kills with a minimum of drain?

Well, Fade, I think your basic argumment is sound. And a small spell to just
tweak a persons heart requires extreme mental control of the astral
energies. While you could argue that the drain is lower, the target number
would be tremendous. So, while you might easily resist the drain, you also
would be facing, say a target number of 6 or greater, maybe even 8 or 10.
AND, the target number would be low and people would resist easily. So while
it is possible, it probably hasn't been done for reason along those lines.
After all, spark *could* do just that if you laid your hand directly over
the targets heart(or very near it). But to do it at a distance would be
*much* harder.

...cut lots of stuff having to do with how aspell is cast (see GrimII)...

> But what about the force of the spell? If you lower it you cast the
> spell with less energy as well as with less drain, do you not?. Well,
> who says it uses less power? The mage goes easy on the control, uses
> the energy sloppily; doesn't go for effect effect effect. It's easier
> to cast a spell that way - less mental drain.
> Fade

Now there is another school of thought that goes along with later part of
your post. With respect to casting spells, the less control you put into the
spell, the easier it is to cast but the more power you conduct, the harder
the drain is on your body, as you are directing the astral energy to your
opponent. Low power spells are just that, low power. They don't have as high
a drain code because you aren't trying to control as much energy. Which I
think you basically said in your post :) The Grimmy2 has some real good
stuff on control and stuff in the spell design area. I'll re-read that and
maybe post on this later!

kim

"How am I supposed to know, I'm making this up as I go along!"
-famous archeologist and pre-shadow runner from the 1930's
Message no. 5
From: Debbie Hughes <hughesd@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Damage spells, magic, fantasy, logic
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:31:54 -0500
Does anyone have subscription information for signing on to this list
server. I have lost my copy and a friend wants to sign on.

Thanks
Message no. 6
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Damage spells, magic, fantasy, logic
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:15:40 +1000
> Does anyone have subscription information for signing on to this list
> server. I have lost my copy and a friend wants to sign on.

I don't know whether someone has answered this for you or not yet, but you have
to send an e-mail to <listserv@********.itribe.net> and give the message no
subject. In the text you write subscribe shadowrn John Smith (or whatever name
you want, but it has to be in two parts).

This should be in the FAQ somewhere. Get your hands on it.

Also, 'tis a much better idea to ask questions like this with a new subject,
rather than using an existing one (ie look at the subject on this message. Not
at all helpful).

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 7
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damage spells, magic, fantasy, logic
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:07:42 -0400
Fade once dared to write,

>Let me ask a question...
>
>What is the most energy - effective manner of killing someone? (with
>magic)
>
>Sending an energy current at a target strong enough to fry his armor,
>flesh, organs and cook of all his ammo? This is the method seen in
>most fantasy games. (As well as the odd death spell, which no less
>brutally and inefficiently rips someone's soul from the body or
>whatever).
>
>OR:
>
>Sending an electrical shock through the target's heart, causing a
>cardiac arrest and thus killing it.

There's two ways to approach this.
1) Special effects do not change game mechanics
2) Spells target the whole aura and not aspects of it (i.e. the heart)

Does that help?

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