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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Wed Jan 23 13:45:08 2002

Message no. 1 Here's a write-up of the damage system I've been thinking out loud about
the last couple of days. Feedback will be highly appreciated :)

-----

These adjustments to the Shadowrun damage resolution system are intended to
remove the "cap" of ten damage boxes that is in the normal system, and to
reduce the predictability involved in taking damage. This way, characters
can function for longer when wounded, but weapons causing little damage are
that much more dangerous as well.

When a character takes damage, roll the normal Body (for physical damage)
or Willpower (for Stun damage) Resistance Test and use it to stage the
damage down as per the standard Shadowrun rules.

However, characters do not have the normal 10 boxes on their Physical and
Stun Condition Monitors. Simply keep adding the damage to any that was
previously taken; the character does not pass out or die when reaching 10
boxes worth of damage. Instead, compare the highest-rolling die of the
Damage Resistance Test to the total number of boxes of damage taken
(physical or Stun, as appropriate to the attack). If the die equals or
exceeds the total number of damage boxes, the character is fine and can
continue to act (though naturally with a wound modifier; see below).

For Stun damage, if the highest-rolling die on the Willpower test is less
than the total number of boxes of Stun damage taken, the character falls
unconscious. Stun damage does not overflow into physical damage; any Stun
damage inflicted while the character is already unconscious only increases
the recovery time.

With physical damage, when the die that rolls highest does not equal the
total number of boxes of physical damage the character has taken, the
character not only falls unconscious, but is dying as well. He immediately
rolls another Body test, with a target number equal to the total number of
boxes of damage suffered (wound modifiers do not apply); failing to achieve
any successes on this test means the character dies there and then. If he
doesn't die, he takes an extra box of damage every number of turns equal to
his Body rating, and must make the Body test again.

Obviously, all of the above does not apply if the character dodges the
attack completely.

Optional: Unconsciousness From Physical Damage

On Body tests to resist physical damage, compare the TWO highest-rolling
dice tot he total number of boxes of damage taken. If neither equals or
exceeds this target number, the character is dying as described above,
while if only one of the two has rolled high enough, the character is
unconscious or otherwise incapacitated for a number of turns equal to the
difference between the next-highest die and the target number. If both
rolled high enough, the character can act normally.

Wound Modifiers

The table below shows the wound modifiers resulting from taking a given
number of boxes of damage. In the unlikely event that a character takes
over 35 boxes and is still conscious/alive, simply continue the progression.

Boxes of Target Number Initiative
Damage Taken Modifier Penalty
0 +0 -0
1-2 +1 -1
3-5 +2 -2
6-9 +3 -3
10-14 +4 -4
15-20 +5 -5
21-27 +6 -6
28-35 +7 -7
etc.

First Aid & Healing

Stun Damage

A character unconscious from Stun damage comes back around according to the
normal rules for Healing Stun Damage on page 126 of SR3.

Physical Damage

Most of the normal rules for healing can be applied here as well, though
some modifications have to be made. The target numbers for any healing or
first aid attempts are on the Healing Table, below. The base time required
to heal a wound is 3 days multiplied by the total number of damage boxes
the character is suffering from. The minimum time is one-tenth of this,
rounded up to the nearest whole day. After this time has passed, check the
Wound Modifiers table, above, for the character's current wound modifiers.
Go up one line, to the next-lower modifier, and read off the minimum number
of damage boxes that goes with that modifier.

For example, if a character has 8 boxes of damage (+3/-3 modifiers),
healing will take 8 x 3 = 24 days. This reduces his wound modifier to
+2/-2, and he will have 3 damage boxes left, because that is the minimum
for the +2/-2 modifiers.

First aid requires two full combat turns per box of damage suffered by the
wounded character. When successful first aid is applied, his total number
of damage boxes taken is reduced to the minimum for one lower wound
modifier, as for normal healing (see above).

Magical Healing

When using a healing spell, the Drain is calculated normally for wounds up
to and including 10 boxes. For more severe wounds, add +2 to the Drain
Target for every point the subject's wound modifier is about +3. (See the
Healing Table, below.)

Healing Table
Magical Healing
Boxes of Target Drain Drain
Damage Taken Number Target Level
0 - - -
1-2 4 - L
3-5 6 - M
6-9 8 - S
10-14 10 - D
15-20 12 +2 D
21-27 14 +4 D
28-35 16 +6 D
etc.

An Example

Shonny has just been shot, 9M damage with four successes behind it. Luckily
he's wearing 5/3 armor, so his Body test (5 dice) is easy enough. Rolling
2, 4, 4, 5 & 5 he "only" takes a Moderate wound, three boxes. That puts him
at 3 boxes in total; because his highest die is a 5, there's nothing to
worry about: he stays conscious and able to act, though at a +2 target
number and -2 initiative modifiers.

Unfortunately, the attacker has two shots, and the other one hits as well,
again with four successes. A roll of 2, 3, 3, 4 & 11 gives Shonny a Serious
wound: 6 boxes on top of the 3 he already had. That's 9 in all, but he's
lucky that he rolled an 11. High enough to still remain conscious and able
to return fire -- though at a +3 modifier now.

Seconds later, Shonny's Manabolted (this is not his day) for 5M damage,
with only two successes. His Willpower of 4 rolls 1, 2, 3 & 14 so he has
another Moderate wound to contend with, bringing his total up to 12 damage
boxes. But he's lucky still: that 14 is enough to keep him on his feet! OK,
so his wound modifiers are up to +4/-4, but at least he can try to crawl
away.

When he finally gets to his street doc buddy Anita, Shonny will have to
spend a base of 42 days (and a minimum of 5 days) healing in order to get
the damage down to 6 boxes, which is the minimum for a +3/-3 modifier.
After that it'll take up to 27 days (minimum 3 days) to get down to 3 boxes
(+2/-2 modifier), then 9 days to get down to 1 box, and then another day to
be fully healed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Wed Jan 23 16:20:00 2002

Message no. 2 > With physical damage, when the die that rolls highest does not equal
the
> total number of boxes of physical damage the character has taken,
the
> character not only falls unconscious, but is dying as well. He
immediately
> rolls another Body test, with a target number equal to the total
number of
> boxes of damage suffered (wound modifiers do not apply); failing to
achieve
> any successes on this test means the character dies there and then.
If he
> doesn't die, he takes an extra box of damage every number of turns
equal to
> his Body rating, and must make the Body test again.

Ouch, I can see my mage character (Body 4) dying every time he takes a
Serious if this is used (Damion would likely agree). Not only that, it
isn't too unlikely that he'd die from taking a moderate. Again, it
seems like a double whammy for those characters withou a high Body
attribute (and don't forget, a Body of 4 is supposed to be above
normal human average).

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Wed Jan 23 17:10:01 2002

Message no. 3 At 05:23 PM 23/01/2002, Benjamin John Hayes wrote:
<snipped rules description>
>Ouch, I can see my mage character (Body 4) dying every time he takes a
>Serious if this is used (Damion would likely agree).

The first impression I got from skimming through the rules was that they
are deadly. But what I understand Gurth is trying to remove from the
regular rules is the "progressitivy" of damage they showcase. What I mean,
is that with this rules (N)PCs in general have to be very cautious about
recieveng damage; a PC that has light damage, will without a doubt don't
sweat too much to risk a direct Ares Predator shot (if the risk is worth
it), just because taking in account Body Armor, Stats, Combat Pool, Karma
the highest likely damage they'll get can be Serious Damage. Deadly if the
GM is a righteous bastard, or he is very lucky. So what the heck, lets try
that stupid stunt. And you know, the damage is progressive: Light,
Moderate, Serious, Deadly. I am far from Deadly? I won't die.

But with this rules you have to be very careful about avoiding all the
damage you can. Just in real life.

From what I read, I find the rules as they are good. But still I think a
test run will show more flaws, if it has any. Which ones should be used? Is
it just a matter of taste. You want cold blooded reality, or sweet epic
Shadowrunners. It is your choice, and I think your players also.

Pepe

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Wed Jan 23 17:25:00 2002

Message no. 4 > From what I read, I find the rules as they are good. But still I
think a
> test run will show more flaws, if it has any. Which ones should be
used? Is
> it just a matter of taste. You want cold blooded reality, or sweet
epic
> Shadowrunners. It is your choice, and I think your players also.

The thing is, I already try to simply avoid being shot as much as
possible. Everyone knows geek the mage tactics though, soit's not
necessarily very easy. This guys also seems to have some sort of
injury magnet thing. Even when he has withdrawn from the fight
completely, he will often get hurt due to freakish circumstances (eg a
bug being knocked down right over towards me after I had withdrawn
from a fight. The bug then proceeds to snot me.

I already tend to go down much earlier than the other's anyway, since
I have hte lowest willpower in our group, and tend to have the worst
luck with dice. I've passed out on numerous occasions now due to 5
boxes of damage, which isn't particularly difficult to cause, hence
I'm cautious.

Our group tends to be fairly cautious all round, except for probably
the Troll. The way I see it, these rules would likely make him take
things more cautiously, but would prove downright lethal to the rest.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Wed Jan 23 19:40:00 2002

Message no. 5 At 06:27 PM 23/01/2002, Benjamin John Hayes wrote:
> > From what I read, I find the rules as they are good. But still I
>think a
> > test run will show more flaws, if it has any. Which ones should be
>used? Is
> > it just a matter of taste. You want cold blooded reality, or sweet
>epic
> > Shadowrunners. It is your choice, and I think your players also.
>
>The thing is, I already try to simply avoid being shot as much as
>possible.

That is a very good thing to do. But, from own experience, players tend to
avoid damage, because healing times are very long, and usually that
will make the runner think twice before accepting missions right after the
other. But besides that, they won't think twice, if they are having a melee
fight. They know that is almost for sure that from one attack they will not
fall unconcious (I am excluding, of course, freak events like a very lucky
roll, or the 100 dice munchkin).

Pepe

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Wed Jan 23 19:55:01 2002

Message no. 6 > That is a very good thing to do. But, from own experience, players
tend to
> avoid damage, because healing times are very long, and usually that
> will make the runner think twice before accepting missions right
after the
> other. But besides that, they won't think twice, if they are having
a melee
> fight. They know that is almost for sure that from one attack they
will not
> fall unconcious (I am excluding, of course, freak events like a very
lucky
> roll, or the 100 dice munchkin).

I'm actually far more scared of melee than bullets, simply because I
DO tend to fall unconcious from one attack in melee very often. A lot
of characters can get away with it, simply because they can roll
enough dice in melee to make the target numbers and damage they take
at least reasonable. You only need a 4 or 5 dice skill in melee to
accomplish this, which is fair enough I reckon if you're not facing an
absolute freak ninja physad.

Melee shouldn't necessarily be as deadly as being shot IMO.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Wed Jan 23 20:50:00 2002

Message no. 7 At 08:59 PM 23/01/2002, Benjamin John Hayes wrote:
>I'm actually far more scared of melee than bullets, simply because I
>DO tend to fall unconcious from one attack in melee very often. A lot
>of characters can get away with it, simply because they can roll
>enough dice in melee to make the target numbers and damage they take
>at least reasonable. You only need a 4 or 5 dice skill in melee to
>accomplish this, which is fair enough I reckon if you're not facing an
>absolute freak ninja physad.

So, what character do you have anyway? :)

Pedestrian Archetype? :)

>Melee shouldn't necessarily be as deadly as being shot IMO.

Melee, isn't deadly according Gurth's rules. But, you can accomplish to
knock out someone with one hit.

Pepe

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Wed Jan 23 21:05:01 2002

Message no. 8 > So, what character do you have anyway? :)
>
> Pedestrian Archetype? :)

I have the mage with atrocious dice and very little melee ability
(although that is up to 3 now) archetype. A pedestrian would likely
beat my mage if he had a high Willpower.

> >Melee shouldn't necessarily be as deadly as being shot IMO.
>
> Melee, isn't deadly according Gurth's rules. But, you can accomplish
to
> knock out someone with one hit.
>
> Pepe

True, you don't die immediately, but from my point of view, being
knocked out in a fight means someone can kill you if they bother to
notice you're still breathing quite easily.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 01:00:01 2002

Message no. 9 Gurth,

I have a question. How will damage rules apply to cars, drones, and ICE?

Pepe

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 03:45:01 2002

Message no. 10 Gurth writes:

> When a character takes damage, roll the normal Body (for physical damage)
> or Willpower (for Stun damage) Resistance Test and use it to stage the
> damage down as per the standard Shadowrun rules.

What about if the damage is, say, from a stun weapon like a Taser? Do
characters still resist the damage with Willpower?

> For Stun damage, if the highest-rolling die on the Willpower test is less
> than the total number of boxes of Stun damage taken, the character falls
> unconscious. Stun damage does not overflow into physical damage; any Stun
> damage inflicted while the character is already unconscious only increases
> the recovery time.

So, therefore, it's now impossible to beat someone to death with your fists?
Once they're KO'd (probably around 5 or 6 boxes of damage unless they're a
Troll, in which case about 12 boxes), we just keep adding on extra Stun
boxes? So it's possible to accumulate, like, 4,000,000 boxes of Stun (hey,
say a whole gang of skinheads kicks you for half an hour), but still not be
dead? Although, recovering from 4,000,000 boxes of Stun will probably take
so long that you'll starve to death, of course.

> With physical damage, when the die that rolls highest does not equal the
> total number of boxes of physical damage the character has taken, the
> character not only falls unconscious, but is dying as well. He immediately
> rolls another Body test, with a target number equal to the total number of
> boxes of damage suffered (wound modifiers do not apply); failing to achieve
> any successes on this test means the character dies there and then. If he
> doesn't die, he takes an extra box of damage every number of turns equal to
> his Body rating, and must make the Body test again.
^^^^^^^^^

The second Body test? ie, the one to avoid dying there and then? I can see
that most people will almost certainly die within a few seconds of being
knocked out this way. If they couldn't roll high enough the first time to
avoid being KO'd and starting to die, there's little chance of them making
the second roll to avoid dying outright. And even if they do, there's
basically no chance of them making the third roll once they take an
additional box of damage from bleeding. The concept of medical attention
saving a characters life will more or less be removed from the game, I fear.
People are either (a) up and about, quite possibly on grevious wounds, (b)
unconscious, but not dying (if using the optional rule below), or (c) dead.
There's no "dying" option left.

> Optional: Unconsciousness From Physical Damage
>
> On Body tests to resist physical damage, compare the TWO highest-rolling
> dice tot he total number of boxes of damage taken. If neither equals or
> exceeds this target number, the character is dying as described above,
> while if only one of the two has rolled high enough, the character is
> unconscious or otherwise incapacitated for a number of turns equal to the
> difference between the next-highest die and the target number. If both
> rolled high enough, the character can act normally.

The knock out time seems rather short. It will usually be 1-3 Combat Turns,
ie 3-9 seconds. The average knockout due to Stun is a couple of hours in SR
(until you reduce the Stun damage down). I might suggest going for "minutes"
or maybe even "hours" rather than "Combat Turns", here.

All the stuff on healing sounds fine, it's more or less either logical
progression or ratiod calculations from what's in the books.

I have a feeling that you'll likely end up with most normal civilians
falling unconscious and dying very readily. Someone with a Body of 3 will
probably outright die from a Serious wound. (They've a 42.13% chance of
getting 1 or more successes, which assuming we use the optional rule for
physical wound unconsciousness means that they've a 60% chance of both
falling unconscious and bleeding. Their second Body test has a 60% chance of
them dying outright.) A person with a Body of 6 only has a 66% chance of
rolling a success the first time, and thus has a 1 in 3 chance of passing
out and starting to bleed to death. They've only a 1 in 3 chance of actually
outright dying then, though, I guess. But this is a person with HUGE body
(for a human ;-)), taking a Serious wound. On a Deadly they've the same odds
as a Body 3 person at a Serious (ie, they're hosed, pretty much no matter
what ... unless they're rather lucky, and _then_ medical help arrives within
about 20 seconds, they're almost certainly dead).

At the other end of the spectrum, lets consider Body 15 Trolls. They've a
75% chance of not instantly passing out and bleeding to death from a Deadly
wound, and the same chance of not dying instantly even if they do. However,
they've only a 33% chance of remaining conscious (ie 2 successes) if they
suffer a Deadly. All in all, this is probably not too bad, I guess. Things
degenerate into rather unlikely circumstances once they get to 12 or more
boxes.

So it looks to me as if this system would give a minor bonus to high
Attribute characters, but a rather large rogering with a root vegetable to
low Attribute characters.

As an additional point, how would you factor in pain resisting effects? And
pain editors?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 06:55:01 2002

Message no. 11 According to Benjamin John Hayes, on Wed, 23 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> Ouch, I can see my mage character (Body 4) dying every time he takes a
> Serious if this is used (Damion would likely agree). Not only that, it
> isn't too unlikely that he'd die from taking a moderate.

Yes, and that's the intention. Well, not that he'll die from taking a Moderate
wound every time (I mean, he'd have to roll all 1s and 2s), but that you have to
consider the chances of it happening.

> Again, it seems like a double whammy for those characters withou a high Body
> attribute

Only up to a certain point, I think. But it needs playtesting, and since my group
currently doesn't play SR, I'm hoping someone here wants to put it to the test :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 06:55:10 2002

Message no. 12 According to Benjamin John Hayes, on Thu, 24 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> Melee shouldn't necessarily be as deadly as being shot IMO.

Depends on the kind of attack, I'd say. FWIW, I find it a bit silly that a club or
a sword causes only slightly more severe damage in SR than a punch does, for
example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 06:55:15 2002

Message no. 13 According to Pepe Barbe, on Thu, 24 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> I have a question. How will damage rules apply to cars, drones, and ICE?

In much the same way, I suppose. I haven't really thought about those yet,
but I don't see why this system couldn't apply to those with very little
modifications. For vehicles, the only real problem is the speed reduction,
I think, but that would just be a matter of reducing the multiplier as the
wound modifier goes up, for example 15%, 10%, 5% and then finally to 0% --
because by that time your car will be shot up so far that it'll be a total
loss anyway :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 06:55:23 2002

Message no. 14 According to Damion Milliken, on Thu, 24 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> > When a character takes damage, roll the normal Body (for physical
> > damage) or Willpower (for Stun damage) Resistance Test and use it to
> > stage the damage down as per the standard Shadowrun rules.
>
> What about if the damage is, say, from a stun weapon like a Taser? Do
> characters still resist the damage with Willpower?

Whatever :) That paragraph simply means you roll the normal resistance test in
the way that is appropriate to the weapon you were attacked with.

> So, therefore, it's now impossible to beat someone to death with your
> fists? Once they're KO'd (probably around 5 or 6 boxes of damage unless
> they're a Troll, in which case about 12 boxes), we just keep adding on
> extra Stun boxes? So it's possible to accumulate, like, 4,000,000 boxes
> of Stun (hey, say a whole gang of skinheads kicks you for half an hour),
> but still not be dead? Although, recovering from 4,000,000 boxes of Stun
> will probably take so long that you'll starve to death, of course.

Yes, that's a small problem that still needs to be fixed, but I can't think of
a good way due to the removal of the limit of 10 boxes on each condition
monitor. The best you can do now is to beat someone into what amounts to a
coma, I guess.

> The second Body test? ie, the one to avoid dying there and then? I can
> see that most people will almost certainly die within a few seconds of
> being knocked out this way. If they couldn't roll high enough the first
> time to avoid being KO'd and starting to die, there's little chance of
> them making the second roll to avoid dying outright.

Good point. Maybe a better way would be to make it TN 2 + wound modifiers,
which would let most characters survive up to Deadly wounds, but make it
difficult above that.

> > Optional: Unconsciousness From Physical Damage
>
> The knock out time seems rather short. It will usually be 1-3 Combat
> Turns, ie 3-9 seconds. The average knockout due to Stun is a couple of
> hours in SR (until you reduce the Stun damage down). I might suggest
> going for "minutes" or maybe even "hours" rather than
"Combat Turns",
> here.

That's intentional; it doesn't necessarily represent unconsciousness, but also
things like black-outs, disorientation due to the shock of being shot, etc.
This way, the character can probably still continue to fight if the combat
lasts more than a few turns.

> I have a feeling that you'll likely end up with most normal civilians
> falling unconscious and dying very readily.

Which is intentional; like Pepe said, in the BTB system, characters (too)
often go, "OK, I have 3 boxes of damage now, he's got a light pistol and I
have an armor jacket, so he'll probably only give me a Light wound. So I can
stand in plain view and do my stuff, no problem." This even applies to
unarmored civilians, who can usually take several shots (provided they're
poorly-aimed, though :) and still get away alive.

> So it looks to me as if this system would give a minor bonus to high
> Attribute characters, but a rather large rogering with a root vegetable
> to low Attribute characters.

And since most characters fall between those two extremes, I think it should
work out OK.

> As an additional point, how would you factor in pain resisting effects?
> And pain editors?

Another thing that needs to be added, though I think they'd work just as they
always do. Pain resistance negates the effects of damage boxes on wound
modifiers, like it does in the basic rules -- if you have 8 boxes of damage
and pain resistance (3), you get the modifier for having 5 boxes of damage,
but you'd still be rolling to see if you die etc. for having 8 boxes. A pain
editor is even simpler: the GM makes the rolls and doesn't tell you anything :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 06:55:28 2002

Message no. 15 According to Pepe Barbe, on Wed, 23 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> The first impression I got from skimming through the rules was that they
> are deadly. But what I understand Gurth is trying to remove from the
> regular rules is the "progressitivy" of damage they showcase.

Precisely, that's one of the ideas behind the system.

> From what I read, I find the rules as they are good. But still I think a
> test run will show more flaws, if it has any.

If anyone has/will, please let me know your findings :)

> Which ones should be used?
> Is it just a matter of taste. You want cold blooded reality, or sweet
> epic Shadowrunners. It is your choice, and I think your players also.

And since my preference goes to cold blooded reality, I'd probably go for a
fine-tuned version of these rules.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 08:30:01 2002

Message no. 16 Gurth writes:

> Yes, that's a small problem that still needs to be fixed, but I can't
> think of a good way due to the removal of the limit of 10 boxes on each
> condition monitor. The best you can do now is to beat someone into what
> amounts to a coma, I guess.

The best that I can think up is to have some sort of limit that relates to
the moment the character passes out. At that point, they can sustain X (eg
10, Body, whatever) boxes more Stun damage before it wraps around to
Phsyical damage. So if they don't pass out until they've taken 30 boxes of
Stun, then, well, good for them. At 40 (or 30 + Body, etc) any extra Stun
damage becomes Phsyical. If they luck out and pass out on a Moderate Stun,
then they start taking Physical at 13 (or 3 + Body, etc).

> Good point. Maybe a better way would be to make it TN 2 + wound modifiers,
> which would let most characters survive up to Deadly wounds, but make it
> difficult above that.

So the second Body Test (the one you need to make if you've passed out and
are bleeding, in order to see if you snuff it straight off) is at 2 + wound
mods? So if you're on a Serious wound when you pass out and begin to bleed
to death (like most characters with Body < 6 will probably do around half
the time or more), then you'll need to get a 5 to avoid karking it
completely right at that moment. That sounds better, they're fairly likely
to make this test. And with a Deadly wound, they'd need 6's, and be rather
likely to die instantly. Which is not too bad, I guess.

> That's intentional; it doesn't necessarily represent unconsciousness, but
> also things like black-outs, disorientation due to the shock of being shot,
> etc. This way, the character can probably still continue to fight if the
> combat lasts more than a few turns.

The problem that I can see with it is that it's possible to knock your
opponents out for quite some time with Stun weapons, but the only way to
knock them out for any length of time with deadly weapons is to incapacitate
them so badly that they either die outright or begin to bleed to death (and
die shortly afterwards ;-)). You can't make them lose consiousness due to
damage.

> > So it looks to me as if this system would give a minor bonus to high
> > Attribute characters, but a rather large rogering with a root vegetable
> > to low Attribute characters.
>
> And since most characters fall between those two extremes, I think it should
> work out OK.

But most characters don't have the Willpower and Body of 6+ that they would
need to be able to handle a Serious wound more than half the time... Players
would be crazy under this system to _not_ have maximum Body and Willpower if
they ever expected to get damaged at all. To not do so would be to invite
instant unconsciousness, and quite probably instant death upon taking any
significant level of damage. Basically, you'd be nuts to have a Body of 2-4
(average people like Body). By "low" I meant basically anyone with an
Attribute of 4 or less. 5 or 6 would be passable in this system, but
anything less is hopeless. I'd at least like people to consider having
Attributes of 2-4, rather than immediately discard it as crazy ;-).

> A pain editor is even simpler: the GM makes the rolls and doesn't tell you
> anything :)

But a character with a pain editor could be wandering around on those
4,000,000 boxes of Stun the gang of skinheads left him with before he
finally killed them all (hey, no TN modifiers!), and feel no ill effects...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Aristotle)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 11:05:00 2002

Message no. 17 Gurth writes:
>> Yes, that's a small problem that still needs to be fixed, but I can't
>> think of a good way due to the removal of the limit of 10 boxes on each
>> condition monitor. The best you can do now is to beat someone into what
>> amounts to a coma, I guess.

Damion replied:
> The best that I can think up is to have some sort of limit that relates to
> the moment the character passes out. At that point, they can sustain X (eg
> 10, Body, whatever) boxes more Stun damage before it wraps around to
> Phsyical damage. So if they don't pass out until they've taken 30 boxes of
> Stun, then, well, good for them. At 40 (or 30 + Body, etc) any extra Stun
> damage becomes Phsyical. If they luck out and pass out on a Moderate Stun,
> then they start taking Physical at 13 (or 3 + Body, etc).

I actually like that (using Body). Basically you have a "damage overflow"
for both Stun and Physical damage that way. I would also rule that powers,
edges/flaws, etc that affect damage overflow also affect it for stun.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 16:15:01 2002

Message no. 18 > Yes, and that's the intention. Well, not that he'll die from taking
a Moderate
> wound every time (I mean, he'd have to roll all 1s and 2s), but that
you have to
> consider the chances of it happening.

That's my point, I already consider I'm a fair chance for at least an
S every time I get hit (which while I've still got my small Karma
Pool of 1 or 6 if in the metaplanes by some fluke of Harlequin's Back,
I can sometimes reduce this to an M or even an L)

> > Again, it seems like a double whammy for those characters withou a
high Body
> > attribute
>
> Only up to a certain point, I think. But it needs playtesting, and
since my group
> currently doesn't play SR, I'm hoping someone here wants to put it
to the test :)
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl -
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> That's the way that I can't win.
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso
<-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com
<-
>
> GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
> V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r
y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Thu Jan 24 18:25:01 2002

Message no. 19 >Gurth writes:

>With physical damage, when the die that rolls highest does not equal the
>total number of boxes of physical damage the character has taken, the
>character not only falls unconscious, but is dying as well. He immediately
>rolls another Body test, with a target number equal to the total number of
>boxes of damage suffered (wound modifiers do not apply); failing to achieve
>any successes on this test means the character dies there and then. If he
>doesn't die, he takes an extra box of damage every number of turns equal to
>his Body rating, and must make the Body test again.

How about they just stay unconscious until they get medical attention (and
more that a turn's worth). Players would want to avoid going unconscious,
because it is boring to sit thorugh the combat with nothing to do, but they
won't get upset about characters dying.

Jane

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Fri Jan 25 05:55:01 2002

Message no. 20 According to Damion Milliken, on Thu, 24 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> So the second Body Test (the one you need to make if you've passed out
> and are bleeding, in order to see if you snuff it straight off) is at 2 +
> wound mods?

Yes.

> The problem that I can see with it is that it's possible to knock your
> opponents out for quite some time with Stun weapons, but the only way to
> knock them out for any length of time with deadly weapons is to
> incapacitate them so badly that they either die outright or begin to
> bleed to death (and die shortly afterwards ;-)). You can't make them lose
> consiousness due to damage.

That's true... This needs a bit more thought, too.

> But most characters don't have the Willpower and Body of 6+ that they
> would need to be able to handle a Serious wound more than half the
> time... Players would be crazy under this system to _not_ have maximum
> Body and Willpower if they ever expected to get damaged at all.

But that's pretty standard behavior in SR anyway, in my experience.

> I'd at least like people to consider having Attributes of 2-4, rather than
> immediately discard it as crazy ;-).

I'm not doing that; I just think it's reasonable to expect them to die from
gunshot wounds :)

> But a character with a pain editor could be wandering around on those
> 4,000,000 boxes of Stun the gang of skinheads left him with before he
> finally killed them all (hey, no TN modifiers!), and feel no ill
> effects...

Erm... they'd still have to make the roll against a TN of 4,000,000 to stay
conscious. They just don't know how many boxes of damage they've taken. Say
the character takes a Serious Stun from the first punch; that requires that
one of their dice is a 6 to stay conscious, regardless of whether there's a
pain editor involved.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Fri Jan 25 05:55:13 2002

Message no. 21 According to Jane VR, on Fri, 25 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> How about they just stay unconscious until they get medical attention
> (and more that a turn's worth).

Another good idea.

> Players would want to avoid going
> unconscious, because it is boring to sit thorugh the combat with nothing
> to do, but they won't get upset about characters dying.

Are you sure? Aside from one guy in my group, people generally don't want
to lose characters in my experience. Being unconscious is generally
considered preferable to being dead.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Fri Jan 25 16:50:01 2002

Message no. 22 >From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>

>
> > Players would want to avoid going
> > unconscious, because it is boring to sit thorugh the combat with nothing
> > to do, but they won't get upset about characters dying.
>
>Are you sure? Aside from one guy in my group, people generally don't want
>to lose characters in my experience. Being unconscious is generally
>considered preferable to being dead.

Soryy, that's what I meant. If the character doesn't die, there is no reason
for the player to get upset. But there is still an incentive to be careful
in combat, because the player doesn't want to sit with nothing to do for the
next 3 turns game time/3 hours real time.

Jane
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> That's the way that I can't win.
>-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
>-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
>
>GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
>V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
>Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Damage system
Date:	Sat Jan 26 06:30:13 2002

Message no. 23 According to Jane VR, on Fri, 25 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> Soryy, that's what I meant. If the character doesn't die, there is no
> reason for the player to get upset.

A PC nearly died in our D&D game last night (he got down to -4 hp). His
player was about ready to pack up and go home, obviously somewhat angry
with me, despite my remarks that he wasn't dead yet...

> But there is still an incentive to be
> careful in combat, because the player doesn't want to sit with nothing to
> do for the next 3 turns game time/3 hours real time.

True, those are the times when things get boring for players. But if the
character dies, at least they have something to do: make a new one ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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