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Message no. 1
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Damge,conciousness, and recovery [SNIPPED]
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:36:54 -0500
> Re: Damge,conciousness, and recovery [LONG] (David Buehrer , Sat 16:33)
>
> Wafflemeisters wrote:
> /
> /
> / I changed this a simple way: deadly wound levels give a +4 TN / -4
> / intitive and CAN (usually will) cause unconciousness.
> /
> / When you have reached 10 boxes of stun damage, make a test with body or
> / willpower (players choice) against 6+ injury modifiers each turn (before
> / your intitive roll). A succes means you remain concious and can act
> / normally. Failure means you are now unconcious, as per normal stun
> / damage rules.
>
> Here's an easier way. Deadly wounds (Physical or Stun) give a +4/-4
> wound modifer to TNs/Initiative. Every box of damage after Deadly
> increases the wound modifier by +1/-1. If the wound TN modifier
> exceeds a character's Body or Willpower (whichever is lower) they
> lose consciousness.
>

This weakens stun a LOT, since there is no "stun overflow"- unless you
count all physical as stun overflow once you have 10 stun filled?

> Optional: when the modifier exceeds the character's Body or Willpower
> (whichever is lower) the character may make an attept to stay
> conscious by making a Body or Willpower (whichever is lower) test vs
> the wound modifier. The character must make this test at the
> beginning of every combat round (before initiative is rolled), or
> when he takes more damage, to stay conscious.
>
> For example, a character with a Body of 7 and a Willpower of 4 will
> become unconscious when their wound modifier reaches +5/-5. If the
> character wants to stay conscious he will have to make a Willpower(5)
> test at the beginning of every turn before initiative is rolled. If
> at some point during the combat turn the character was injured again
> they would have to make another Willpower test to stay conscious.
>
> This is nice because characters with high stats don't automatically
> fall unconscious with a Deadly wound, and characters can lose
> consciousness with combined physical and stun wounds that aren't
> immediately life threatening.

I will grant its simple (no more than what I originally posted, though)
and that falling unconcious with just a serious wound is a possibility.
I personally would't want to screw a character that way, though- let
them use thier full track, I say- it'll fill up fast enough if thier
body is low, and I don't think size and toughness influences the ability
to stay concious as heavily as your rule has it..

Part of the beuty of the damage track is that it applies the same to
everyone. Low body people take more damage from a given wound, relative
to what will disable them. Changing the level at which they will be
disabled by a large amount mucks that up. I changed it a bit, to
reflect what I thought were some relistic factors, but this (though
simple) goes to far and in a bad direction.


I don't think it would be good that a normal pedestrian drops
unconcious so long before being in risk of dieing. Part of my intention
was to design a system that lets you remain concious AND die (mainly for
game dramma, partly to boost pain editors and such).

Also, as written, you've made most runners impossible to knock out with
stun damage, so what good would sleepy gas be as security? And you'd
have to really mangle a troll to knock him out, and even trolls don't
bounce back from deadly wounds.


A classic joke : " OK, new modual? I take a serious wound and earn 10
karma." - literally my first 4 adventures playing a samurai boiled down
to just that.

-Mongoose
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Damge,conciousness, and recovery [SNIPPED]
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:35:05 -0600
Wafflemeisters wrote:
/
/ > Re: Damge,conciousness, and recovery [LONG] (David Buehrer , Sat 16:33)
/ >
/ > Wafflemeisters wrote:
/ > /
/ > / I changed this a simple way: deadly wound levels give a +4 TN / -4
/ > / intitive and CAN (usually will) cause unconciousness.
/ > /
/ > / When you have reached 10 boxes of stun damage, make a test with body or
/ > / willpower (players choice) against 6+ injury modifiers each turn (before
/ > / your intitive roll). A succes means you remain concious and can act
/ > / normally. Failure means you are now unconcious, as per normal stun
/ > / damage rules.
/ >
/ > Here's an easier way. Deadly wounds (Physical or Stun) give a +4/-4
/ > wound modifer to TNs/Initiative. Every box of damage after Deadly
/ > increases the wound modifier by +1/-1. If the wound TN modifier
/ > exceeds a character's Body or Willpower (whichever is lower) they
/ > lose consciousness.
/
/ This weakens stun a LOT, since there is no "stun overflow"- unless you
/ count all physical as stun overflow once you have 10 stun filled?

Oi. I didn't even think about that. Hm... Keep the rule that a Deadly
stun knocks a character out.

/ I will grant its simple (no more than what I originally posted, though)
/ and that falling unconcious with just a serious wound is a possibility.

If you have a Will or Body of 2. The civilian average is 3.
Shadowrunner average is 4-5.

/ Part of the beuty of the damage track is that it applies the same to
/ everyone. Low body people take more damage from a given wound, relative
/ to what will disable them. Changing the level at which they will be
/ disabled by a large amount mucks that up. I changed it a bit, to
/ reflect what I thought were some relistic factors, but this (though
/ simple) goes to far and in a bad direction.

Sorry :) but a personal peeve of mine is that the damage track applies the
same to everyone. On this point we disagree, and will probably never
agree. Fair enough? :)

/ I don't think it would be good that a normal pedestrian drops
/ unconcious so long before being in risk of dieing. Part of my intention
/ was to design a system that lets you remain concious AND die (mainly for
/ game dramma, partly to boost pain editors and such).

Mine does that, unless the person has lower then average stats (2s).
A normal pedestrian with 3s won't drop until they've received a
Deadly wound.

/ Also, as written, you've made most runners impossible to knock out with
/ stun damage, so what good would sleepy gas be as security? And you'd
/ have to really mangle a troll to knock him out, and even trolls don't
/ bounce back from deadly wounds.

Yep. I gotta work on that. It started out as a good idea :)

/ A classic joke : " OK, new modual? I take a serious wound and earn 10
/ karma." - literally my first 4 adventures playing a samurai boiled down
/ to just that.

<chuckle>

-David
--
"Hold a true friend with both hands."
- Nigerian Proverb
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Damge,conciousness, and recovery [SNIPPED]
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:16:44 -0500
> Re: Damge,conciousness, and recovery [SNIPPED] (David Buehrer , Sun 14:35)

> / > Here's an easier way. Deadly wounds (Physical or Stun) give a +4/-4
> / > wound modifer to TNs/Initiative. Every box of damage after Deadly
> / > increases the wound modifier by +1/-1. If the wound TN modifier
> / > exceeds a character's Body or Willpower (whichever is lower) they
> / > lose consciousness.

> / I will grant its simple (no more than what I originally posted, though)
> / and that falling unconcious with just a serious wound is a possibility.
>
> If you have a Will or Body of 2. The civilian average is 3.
> Shadowrunner average is 4-5.

I mis-read "TN mod exceeds" as "TN mod equals or exceeds". I see, yet
still complain vaugely.

>
> / Part of the beuty of the damage track is that it applies the same to
> / everyone. Low body people take more damage from a given wound, relative
> / to what will disable them. Changing the level at which they will be
> / disabled by a large amount mucks that up. I changed it a bit, to
> / reflect what I thought were some relistic factors, but this (though
> / simple) goes to far and in a bad direction.
>
> Sorry :) but a personal peeve of mine is that the damage track applies the
> same to everyone. On this point we disagree, and will probably never
> agree. Fair enough? :)

Oh. Well, fair enough- if you don't like thae damage track, you WON'T
like many parts of my damage handling system. I like it cause the TRACK
aplies the same, but the DAMAGE is reduced- IE, a big hole in an elf is
a small hole in a troll (genrally). It does have its problems.

This may sound sarcastic, but it isn't- if you don't like the damage
track, why not change to a HP and wound system, like ED? (or, afaik,
cyberpunk)
Each weapon could have a base damage, each succes could add a point of
damage, and armor would reduce damage. Taking more than (Function foo
(body)) at a whack would cause a wound, and accumulated wounds would
cause penalties.
Such a system has its merits, not the least of which is eliminating
damage resistance (you'd probably want to still allow defensive combat
pool use somehow).

-Mongoose
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Damge,conciousness, and recovery [SNIPPED]
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:26:09 -0600
Wafflemeisters wrote:
/
/ > Sorry :) but a personal peeve of mine is that the damage track applies the
/ > same to everyone. On this point we disagree, and will probably never
/ > agree. Fair enough? :)
/
/ Oh. Well, fair enough- if you don't like thae damage track, you WON'T
/ like many parts of my damage handling system. I like it cause the TRACK
/ aplies the same, but the DAMAGE is reduced- IE, a big hole in an elf is
/ a small hole in a troll (genrally). It does have its problems.

Eeuurg. Damn, I *knew* that too. Allergies and not enough sleep
have addled my brain the lately. I know, I'll blame it on FASA for
making SR so subtle ;)

You're right, damage is reduced based on body. Which means that my
idea is out of wack.

/ This may sound sarcastic, but it isn't- if you don't like the damage
/ track, why not change to a HP and wound system, like ED? (or, afaik,
/ cyberpunk)

Tried, which is when I realized what you stated above. Then I promptly
forgot what I learned :(

Back to the drawing board.

-David
--
"Hold a true friend with both hands."
- Nigerian Proverb
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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