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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:10:46 -0600
Gurth wrote:
/
/ K is the Symbol said on 9:35/25 Jun 98,...
/
/ > Somehow Gurth, I can imagine that Jon probably feels the same.
/
/ Let's get clear I'm not blaming this on Jon Szeto, but whoever is
/ responsible for these things at FASA (their editing department,
/ maybe? I don't know) should really pay a bit more attention, I
/ think. Unless it's a deliberate marketing ploy to get us to buy
/ multiple books to have all the rules...

Here's what really happens.

Mike puts together what he feels is a good product. He's been reading
his email and taking phone calls from Shadowrun players and has taken
all their comments into account. He thinks that between him, his
co-workers, the writers, and the players, that he's got everything
nailed down. The product is printed and hits the shelves.

A player contacts him and says, "There's a problem with such and such."

Mike checks, and sure enough the player is right. He bangs his head on a
nearby wall several times while cussing profusely.

He gathers his wits and fixes the problem.

Now he has a fix and he wants to get it to the players. He starts
looking for an upcoming product to add the fix to, and slips it in
edgewise.

The product hits the shelves.

Players from around the world gripe about this rule not being where it
should be and blame FASA.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've screwed up before. In
fact, some weeks I do it on a daily basis. I've written instruction
manuals for my employees to help them do their jobs better and
proofread the hell out of them before I hand them out. I've even had a
co-supervisor and my boss look them over with a fine tooth comb. Guess
what, the damn manual has errors.

So I have to re-write damn thing at some point. I'm not happy about it.

But then I get a newly hired employee that says that the manual is
great and this is the first job she's had that had a real manual and
she says this is a great place to work and I'm a wonderful boss. And
now that one employee's comments have instilled a sense of pride about
all the hard work I went to and I can shrug off the fact that it has a
few errors.

I hope Mike gets positive feedback like that from time to time for all
the hard work he does for us.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Brian Davis <bdavis@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:32:59 -0400
On the contrary, If a rule was included in a sourcebook and was in error, =
a FREE errata sheet should be made available via mail or FASA's web site =
to correct what I have already purchased. I shouldn't be forced to =
purchase the Neo-Anarchist's guide to soda machines to get the fix for =
say.. fully automatic weapon recoil. This is no different than software =
companies offering bug fixes for product which they have released. I =
don't need to purchase a different game from the same software company =
to get the fix for another game I have already purchased. I can certainly =
appreciate all the hard work and effort that goes into making a game such =
as Shadowrun (Thats why I buy the books), but I do expect to get what I =
paid for without any additional expense.

Brian Davis


>>> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@DENVER.CARL.ORG> 06/26 12:10 PM
>>>

<Snip>

Now he has a fix and he wants to get it to the players. He starts
looking for an upcoming product to add the fix to, and slips it in
edgewise.

The product hits the shelves.

Players from around the world gripe about this rule not being where it
should be and blame FASA.

<Snip>
Message no. 3
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:06:42 -0600
At 12:32 26/06/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On the contrary, If a rule was included in a sourcebook and was in error,

<snipped>

Hello, just a quick note to let you know that replies should be placed
After quoted text on the ShadowRN mailing list, like I have done so here.

If you are not familar with the ShadowRN posting guidelines, you can find
them as part of the FAQ at http://www.coastnet.com/~dvixen/

Thanks,
Adam J
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader
Members of ShadowRN GridSec: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
Drekhead <drekhead@***.net> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
-
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader: Adam Jury <fro@***.ab.ca>
ShadowRN List Owner: Mark Imbracio <mark@******.net>
ShadowRN FAQ: http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/shadowrn
TSS Productions: http://www.interware.it/users/adamj
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:58:24 -0400
At 10:10 AM 6/26/98 -0600, you wrote:

>Here's what really happens.
<SNIPPED>
>Players from around the world gripe about this rule not being where it
>should be and blame FASA.

David's essentially right. While it's not convenient, we really shouldn't
get pissed at FASA for something nearly unavoidable.

Magic in the Shadows will gather together nearly all the magic rules and
goodies so far. But I'm sure something will get published later on that
could have been in MITS, but for whatever reason, wasn't.

Next years Cannon Companion that'll gather all the guns and probably gear
together will probably also suffer the same fate.

There's also the fact that when writing a new sourcebook or adventure,
sometimes new situations not covered, or not covered well, by the rules
crops up.

So what is FASA supposed to do? They create game mechanics for that new
situation and you've got rules and toys scattered about. An unavoidable
cost of expanding the world of Shadowrun I would argue.

>I hope Mike gets positive feedback like that from time to time for all
>the hard work he does for us.

Actually, I just this week dropped a note to him on just this exact topic.

I know from e-mailing Randall over there that a lot of people seem to think
they sit around and play games and do some writing and draw some pictures
and it's just a glamorous life.

It's not. It's extremely hard work; the week before the Memorial Day
holiday Randall was putting in something like 12 hour days or more *just to
get the books we want out on time!*

So regardless of whether or not we like the rules or the plots or how they
do adventures, they are deserving of our respect simply because they work
very hard trying to make us happy. By making us happy, they stay employed.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 5
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:20:03 -0400
Once upon a time, Brian Davis wrote;

>On the contrary, If a rule was included in a sourcebook and was in error,
>a FREE errata sheet should be made available via mail or FASA's web site
>to correct what I have already purchased. I shouldn't be forced to
>purchase the Neo-Anarchist's guide to soda machines to get the fix for
>say.. fully automatic weapon recoil. This is no different than software
>companies offering bug fixes for product which they have released. I
>don't need to purchase a different game from the same software company to
>get the fix for another game I have already purchased. I can certainly
>appreciate all the hard work and effort that goes into making a game such
>as Shadowrun (Thats why I buy the books), but I do expect to get what I
>paid for without any additional expense.

You are full of it! If Shadowrun was a static environment then such
a possible expectation could be possible. Shadowrun is anything but
static and by the very nature of most players wanting more material keeps
it on an evolving process. A lot of these rules changes come from
extensive feedback over a long period of time. That's fine. But never has
FASA ever said you have to purchase their new book that has the rule or
that you even had to use the rule that was changed. There is absolutely
nothing mandatory about it to be upset over.
And as far as your example of computer games (or any software for
that mater), they are continually being updated and upgrades have to be
bought. This happen far more frequently than any RPG book.
I can't find one valid complaint in anything you said. There are
some people who will never be pleased no matter what you do. Fuck em.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Say what you mean, and say it mean!"
-Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, Ramrod

I am MC23
Message no. 6
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 08:29:51 +0000
On 26 Jun 98 at 12:32, Brian Davis wrote:

> On the contrary, If a rule was included in a sourcebook and was
> in error, a FREE errata sheet should be made available via mail or
> FASA's web site to correct what I have already purchased. I
> shouldn't be forced to purchase the Neo-Anarchist's guide to soda
> machines to get the fix for say.. fully automatic weapon recoil.
> This is no different than software companies offering bug fixes for
> product which they have released.

Very good point there, you can just stick the errata sheet in the
book it belongs to like they did with the Big Book and scribble some
notes in the margins. The thing is these snippety rules are a pain.
As a GM you already have to have a very good memory for what you're
supposed to be telling the players next without having to search for
the complete rules for wearing multiple layers of underwear which
happen to be in three books.

Everybody makes mistakes and I don't slag FASA for making mistakes,
just the route they follow to solve them. And the fact that I do
enjoy most SR products should be evident from the book shelf crammed
full with SR books and the response cards that I send back whenever
I still find them in the books. But no-one is going to accept it from
M$ if they tell you to buy Office 97 Pro to get a fix for MS
exchange.

Martin
(who still likes SR after 9 years but just doesn't want to buy
everything in case there's a rule addendum in it.
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:24:07 +0100
David Buehrer said on 10:10/26 Jun 98,...

> Here's what really happens.

Says you...

> Mike puts together what he feels is a good product.
[snip]
> A player contacts him and says, "There's a problem with such and such."
>
> Mike checks, and sure enough the player is right. He bangs his head on a
> nearby wall several times while cussing profusely.
>
> He gathers his wits and fixes the problem.
>
> Now he has a fix and he wants to get it to the players. He starts
> looking for an upcoming product to add the fix to, and slips it in
> edgewise.

Somehow, I don't think this is quite the way it goes, going by the
short time between a product and the one that contains the
"fixes." Until we get a definite answer about why this happens
(which I doubt), I think for now I'll stick to my idea that they ran
out of room in one book and decided to put the rest in a book
with related topics.

[snip "good manual" anecdote]
> I hope Mike gets positive feedback like that from time to time for all
> the hard work he does for us.

I could perhaps call this another cultural difference... I don't
know about where you live, but where I live it's not very common
to praise someone for doing what they're supposed to do, even if
they do it well. They're much more likely to get feedback about
the things they could have done better.

I would like to hear/read the official explanation for why rules
appear in all kinds of books nowadays, though...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Jon Szeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 10:55:04 EDT
The REAL reason that the t-bird rules were published in Target: Smuggler
Havens, and not Rigger: 2, was simply this: I didn't think of them at the
time.

After Rigger 2 had come out in October, one of the (many) questions asked of
me was about t-birds, and how high they can fly (I believe this question was
also repeated here). That, and several other things that were
asked/discussed/argued about t-birds, got me thinking about them, things that
I hadn't thought about when I was writing Rigger 2. I knew Mike Mulvihill
wanted to do something on t-bird runs for T:SH, so I put them together and
pitched these ideas to Mike. He liked them, so they went into the book.

You have to understand, Rigger 2 is not supposed to be the be-all and end-all
sourcebook for riggers and vehicles. As you know, FASA had cut some things for
reasons of time AND space limitations. But also, for those same reasons, there
were some things that I had thought about that _I_ never wrote down, simply
because there were other things (like drone rules and the vehicle
construction) that both Mike and I felt simply HAD to take priority in Rigger
2.

Now as far as errata and corrections go: yes, there is a list of errata for
Rigger 2. FASA has had plans to release them (as well as a R2 Q&A list) on its
web page, but other things have taken priority (like putting out books). The
current plan (as I understand from FASA) is to wait on putting up the errata
list for Rigger 2 on their web page until after SR3 comes out, so as to make
sure the errata and Q&A agree with the 3rd edition.

Speaking for myself and no one else,

-- Jon
Message no. 9
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:05:14 -0400
Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

<snip the reasons>

>I would like to hear/read the official explanation for why rules
>appear in all kinds of books nowadays, though...

Both reasons are valid for printing the rules later. Placement of
the rules do not bother me much. Expanded rules that come out later do
not bother me much. Attempts to later "fix" a problem game mechanic also
do not bother (unless the problem is glaringly obvious). In all, I don't
see where this is an issue to waste any time getting concerned over.
This general topic of printing game rules has irritated me though
because I'm getting burned out on listening to 40k players trash the
upcoming rules nobody has seen. The ability to want more rules and be
upset about them at the same time doesn't stop surprising me.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:02:52 +0100
MC23 said on 12:05/27 Jun 98,...

> This general topic of printing game rules has irritated me though
> because I'm getting burned out on listening to 40k players trash the
> upcoming rules nobody has seen. The ability to want more rules and be
> upset about them at the same time doesn't stop surprising me.

I'm not upset about the rules themselves, and I'm sure as hell
not going to complain about rules I haven't seen yet. What I find
annoying is that they're in so many different books, so I have to
take more books to the game to have all of the rules with me; as
these have to go in a bag on the back of my bike, space is
limited, and at least once a month we need a book I forgot to
bring, or decided not to for lack of space.

That's why I prefer all rules to be in one place. I can understand
(and live with) Jon's explanation that he hadn't thought of them
when he wrote R2, but unlike him I do see R2 as _the_ vehicle
book for SR (except when it comes to pictures of those vehicles),
so I kind of expect all the rules relevant to vehicles in that book...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 07:02:20 -0600
At 12:02 28/06/98 +0100, you wrote:

>That's why I prefer all rules to be in one place. I can understand
>(and live with) Jon's explanation that he hadn't thought of them
>when he wrote R2, but unlike him I do see R2 as _the_ vehicle
>book for SR (except when it comes to pictures of those vehicles),
>so I kind of expect all the rules relevant to vehicles in that book...

Gurth, you just contradicted yourself... :)

I, for one, would like to see more RPG companies having fan clubs, whether
they are online or snail mail based. When something comes up such as Jon
writing rules that really should have been in a FASA book, FASA sends all
the subscribers a file/printout with the rules. It doesn't have to be
fancy, it doesn't have to be printed and bound, it just has to be there.

Perhaps it could work this way -- you get a FASA book, you fill in the
product response card, you send it in, you're placed on the mailing list
for new stuff relating to that book or all books in that game line. This
system should work for Errata, too.

I realize this breaks down in regards to some situations -- I'm sure Jon
would like to be paid for his T-bird stuff. (This reads badly. I'll assume
and hope he WAS paid), but in the situation I gave, it's hard for FASA to
pay him normal rates for something they are essentially giving away for
free, if not a loss (Mailing all that stuff out gets expensive).

So, perhaps an online solution would be better, to keep costs down. Heck,
FASA should have an official online magazine that is free or available for
a nominal cost.

-Adam J
Available (In more ways than one!) Editor.
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:12:28 -0600
Gurth wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer said on 10:10/26 Jun 98,...
/
/ > Here's what really happens.
/
/ Says you...

I actually witnessed just such an event :-\

/ > Mike puts together what he feels is a good product.
/ [snip]
/ > A player contacts him and says, "There's a problem with such and such."
/ >
/ > Mike checks, and sure enough the player is right. He bangs his head on a
/ > nearby wall several times while cussing profusely.
/ >
/ > He gathers his wits and fixes the problem.
/ >
/ > Now he has a fix and he wants to get it to the players. He starts
/ > looking for an upcoming product to add the fix to, and slips it in
/ > edgewise.
/
/ Somehow, I don't think this is quite the way it goes, going by the
/ short time between a product and the one that contains the
/ "fixes." Until we get a definite answer about why this happens
/ (which I doubt), I think for now I'll stick to my idea that they ran
/ out of room in one book and decided to put the rest in a book
/ with related topics.

It's a combination. When they have to much for one book, but enough
for a possible sourcebook, then they go with the sourcebook route (see
SSC and Shadowtech). But sometimes something doesn't come up during
playtesting until it's too late to get it fixed and in a product.

If it's a "this is fucked up" they do print an errata. If it's a "this
coulda been done better" they drop it in another product as a bonus.
Look at FoF. It had all the toys and the rules for mercaneries, and
tagged added to the back were some rules updates/options. I saw those
updates/options as a bonus.

/ [snip "good manual" anecdote]
/ > I hope Mike gets positive feedback like that from time to time for all
/ > the hard work he does for us.
/
/ I could perhaps call this another cultural difference... I don't
/ know about where you live, but where I live it's not very common
/ to praise someone for doing what they're supposed to do, even if
/ they do it well. They're much more likely to get feedback about
/ the things they could have done better.

Nope, it's the same here. Negative criticism is the norm. I was
stating how I'd like it to be :-\

/ I would like to hear/read the official explanation for why rules
/ appear in all kinds of books nowadays, though...

IMHO, it's because FASA tries to give their players what they want. If
someone tells them such and such doesn't work right, then they try to
fix it and get that to us.

Other game companies don't do that. You buy the main book and if
there's some problems you won't see a fix until the next edition.
Every sourcebook they put out stays within the parameters of the main
book without budging. And when the new edition does come out all of
your old stuff isn't worth crap anymore.

I prefer FASA's method. They catter to their players more than any
other game that I can think of.

If you want to complain about something, complain about the ammount of
Shadowrun material on the net ;)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 13
From: Michael Paff <mikepaff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:32:20 -0700
At 08:12 PM 6/28/98 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
>Gurth wrote:
>/
>/ Somehow, I don't think this is quite the way it goes, going by the
>/ short time between a product and the one that contains the
>/ "fixes." Until we get a definite answer about why this happens
>/ (which I doubt), I think for now I'll stick to my idea that they ran
>/ out of room in one book and decided to put the rest in a book
>/ with related topics.
>
>It's a combination. When they have to much for one book, but enough
>for a possible sourcebook, then they go with the sourcebook route (see
>SSC and Shadowtech). But sometimes something doesn't come up during
>playtesting until it's too late to get it fixed and in a product.
>
>If it's a "this is fucked up" they do print an errata. If it's a "this
>coulda been done better" they drop it in another product as a bonus.
>Look at FoF. It had all the toys and the rules for mercaneries, and
>tagged added to the back were some rules updates/options. I saw those
>updates/options as a bonus.
>
How many errata have YOU seen from FASA. The only ones I've seen are
for the BBB and Grimmy. I do know that FASA HAS found bugs in rules
and instead of making an errata available, they quietly correct the
error in a later revision of the sourcebook (case in point: the
Encephalon rules in Shadowtech). This ticks me off somewhat - I
certainly don't have the cash to buy a new revision of a sourcebook
to get corrected rules.

Mike
Message no. 14
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 02:25:25 -0400
Once upon a time, Michael Paff wrote;

>How many errata have YOU seen from FASA. The only ones I've seen are
>for the BBB and Grimmy. I do know that FASA HAS found bugs in rules
>and instead of making an errata available, they quietly correct the
>error in a later revision of the sourcebook (case in point: the
>Encephalon rules in Shadowtech). This ticks me off somewhat - I
>certainly don't have the cash to buy a new revision of a sourcebook
>to get corrected rules.

FASA rarely does errata period. The instances of having to get the
next book for a correction are few. You speak as if this is an on going
process. Secondly (and this might sound odd coming from me) the rules are
necessary element of your game. You do not have to own the book to use
them and you are even allowed to create rules of your own. Come on now,
what is this about quietly correcting rules? Is FASA supposed to hold a
world press conference to say they changed Encephalon rules? Shadowtech
was/is the most fitting place for that rules correction. If they put it
in Awakenings it would have been hidden. Also FASA has only done
revisions for the main rule book, Street Samurai Catalog, Grimoire,
Virtual Reality, and Riggers in the nine years of the game run and has an
advancing time line. That's not bad for a game that does care to improve
it's rules. Look towards GURPS if you want to complain about revisions.
As far as availability of errata, FASA tries to stick with printed
material until a new book prints the changes in it. Regardless of what
you might believe, the best way to distribute the rule is in a later
sourcebook keeping within the theme of the rule use.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:22:30 +0100
David Buehrer said on 20:12/28 Jun 98,...

> If you want to complain about something, complain about the ammount of
> Shadowrun material on the net ;)

If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 07:35:09 -0600
Gurth wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer said on 20:12/28 Jun 98,...
/
/ > If you want to complain about something, complain about the ammount of
/ > Shadowrun material on the net ;)
/
/ If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
/ the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...

...you're kidding. I mean, sure, FASA's Shadowrun page is pretty
lame. But look at the ammount of freedom they give us on our web
pages. Not once have I had a FASA rep contact me telling me I can't
use their logo or their name, or whatever, on my web page.

And the number and quality of Shadowrun pages on the web is astounding.

Here's an idea. Anyone who want's to work on FASA's Shadowrun page
should volunteer for the job. I would jump at the chance (if I had the
time). From what I understand it's not for lack of stuff to put on
their web page, but that no one in the SR department has the HTML
skills or the desire.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 17
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:03:56 -0400
Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
>the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...

Recognition implies that FASA approves of the material therefore
it's official material. I know that you would know better but not
everyone does. I was impressed when they joined the webring. I feel like
that is very supportive thing to do.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 18
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:28:23 EDT
In a message dated 6/29/98 8:34:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> ...you're kidding. I mean, sure, FASA's Shadowrun page is pretty
> lame. But look at the ammount of freedom they give us on our web
> pages. Not once have I had a FASA rep contact me telling me I can't
> use their logo or their name, or whatever, on my web page.

Actually, the logo is theirs, yes. And all it means is a bunch of free
advertising that they are being given. And anything that anyone can get for
free is -rarely- argued upon. Unless said advertisements are included in a
truly tasteless or grossly exagerated page.

> And the number and quality of Shadowrun pages on the web is astounding.

Well, that part is at least correct....

> Here's an idea. Anyone who want's to work on FASA's Shadowrun page
> should volunteer for the job. I would jump at the chance (if I had the
> time). From what I understand it's not for lack of stuff to put on
> their web page, but that no one in the SR department has the HTML
> skills or the desire.

Uh, no. HTML is no longer a major skill requirement, especially when
considering the massively powerful encoding page writers that are out there.

I remember a while ago that there was an advert for a "Web Page Coordinator"
at their site for a while. Which to me would be just about the lamest job in
the world given the above fact about web page creation programs. And FASA
isn't putting up to it's site(s) any of the potential Errata sheets that it
could (for small errors at the very least), so it wouldn't be
changed/corrected very often.

Now I am not saying I wouldn't enjoy said lamest job in the world, I am just
saying that without knowing a lot more or without having a -SERIOUS- upgrade
to their web site(s) function and/or appearance, it wouldn't matter all that
much.

-K
Message no. 19
From: Dan Gelinske <dunkelzahn@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 07:24:50 -0700
> / If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
> / the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...
>
> ...you're kidding. I mean, sure, FASA's Shadowrun page is pretty
> lame. But look at the ammount of freedom they give us on our web
> pages. Not once have I had a FASA rep contact me telling me I can't
> use their logo or their name, or whatever, on my web page.
>
> And the number and quality of Shadowrun pages on the web is astounding.

<snip idea>

Very true... but adding to your point, look at how much interaction in a
positive
manner does exist between FASA and us in the Shadowrun net community. Both
Jon Szeto and Steve Kenson (and probably a couple others I am forgetting, hold
that carp!)
are members of this list and post to it quite frequently. I know that is not
directly related to SR webpages, but many of us do have SR pages... One of
the things I appreciate the most about FASA is their interaction with players
on the net, and their support for people who post pages. Not telling people
with SR pages to take their sites down because of "copyright infringements" is
a good sign of FASA's support, IMNSHO.

Nebiru
"those who live by the sword get shot by those who dont."
Message no. 20
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:48:22 +0000
> >If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
> >the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...
>
> Recognition implies that FASA approves of the material therefore
> it's official material. I know that you would know better but not
> everyone does. I was impressed when they joined the webring. I feel like
> that is very supportive thing to do.

If, on the other hand, Gurth was talking about recognition/support of
the NET, it is a better gripe. I mean, even FASA BattleTech and
Earthdawn pages have FAQ's and Errata.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:14:42 +0100
David Buehrer said on 7:35/29 Jun 98,...

> / If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
> / the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...
>
> ...you're kidding.

No, I'm not.

> I mean, sure, FASA's Shadowrun page is pretty lame.

That's a totally different subject. I agree with the statement, but
it doesn't have anything to do with the way I feel about FASA's
apparent attitude toward the internet, and toward the WWW in
particular.

> But look at the ammount of freedom they give us on our web
> pages. Not once have I had a FASA rep contact me telling me I can't
> use their logo or their name, or whatever, on my web page.

Freedom and support is something else entirely. Sure, they allow
us to put SR logos etc. on our pages despite a policy statement of
some years ago that that wasn't allowed (IIRC; I think I read
that on Wordman's FAQ page), but I don't see that as support.

> And the number and quality of Shadowrun pages on the web is astounding.

Yes. Which is exactly my point. There is a lot of stuff on the net
for SR, yet does FASA acknowledge this? They joined the
webring, and that's about it AFAIK. Woohoo!

Now I already know _somebody_ will mention the old line of "If
they were to acknowledge it that would mean everybody would
see the net.stuff as official FASA material" blah blah fucking
blah... But that's not what I'm talking about.

To me it appears like FASA went along with the corporate fashion,
got themselves a web page and some email addresses (in reverse
order), and left it at that. I've certainly never heard of someone
from FASA saying "You've got a cool web page there for our
game" except for that one FASA Mike quote in the Archive. (And
here I know people will start replying along the lines of "FASA
Mike's way too busy to look at every web page" and/or "Why
should they?" Don't bother.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:14:42 +0100
Dan Gelinske said on 7:24/29 Jun 98,...

> One of
> the things I appreciate the most about FASA is their interaction with players
> on the net, and their support for people who post pages.

WHAT?! That is precisely my biggest gripe with FASA! The way I
see it there is little to no support at all...

Yes, Jon, Steve, Jak, and perhaps others are on this list but
they're not FASA -- they're freelancers _writing_ for FASA. Major
difference there, I think.

> Not telling people
> with SR pages to take their sites down because of "copyright infringements"
is
> a good sign of FASA's support, IMNSHO.

I agree with that, but I think it's also somewhat inevitable. T$R
tried it a few years ago (urged to by their lawyers, AFAIK) and
earned said nickname because of it. All the other game
companies learned from that.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:14:42 +0100
MC23 said on 10:03/29 Jun 98,...

> >If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
> >the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...
>
> Recognition implies that FASA approves of the material therefore
> it's official material. I know that you would know better but not
> everyone does.

Yes, I know the difference. All it takes is a disclaimer, IMHO...

> I was impressed when they joined the webring. I feel like
> that is very supportive thing to do.

Which is about the opposite of the way I feel about it -- it comes
across to me as a way of dealing with all the stuff at once and
with a minimum of trouble and effort.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:39:55 EDT
In a message dated 6/29/98 10:15:15 AM, Gurth wrote:

>Now I already know _somebody_ will mention the old line of "If
>they were to acknowledge it that would mean everybody would
>see the net.stuff as official FASA material" blah blah fucking
>blah... But that's not what I'm talking about.
>
>To me it appears like FASA went along with the corporate fashion,
>got themselves a web page and some email addresses (in reverse
>order), and left it at that. I've certainly never heard of someone
>from FASA saying "You've got a cool web page there for our
>game" except for that one FASA Mike quote in the Archive. (And
>here I know people will start replying along the lines of "FASA
>Mike's way too busy to look at every web page" and/or "Why
>should they?" Don't bother.)

I wonder if any folks writing for FASA right now started off with web pages
and other fan activities? That would be one hell of a way to support web
activity and player interaction.
Message no. 25
From: "Teff, Mike T" <mike.teff@**.MINNEAPOLIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:01:01 -0500
>
> I wonder if any folks writing for FASA right now started off
> with web pages
> and other fan activities? That would be one hell of a way to
> support web
> activity and player interaction.
>

Probably not. You have to remember, the WEB part of the Internet has
only been around for about 5 years.
Message no. 26
From: KzDruid <quicksilver82@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:19:38 -0400
In a galaxy very very close, in a time not long ago Smilin' Ted Wrote:
>>Now I already know _somebody_ will mention the old line of "If
>>they were to acknowledge it that would mean everybody would
>>see the net.stuff as official FASA material" blah blah fucking
>>blah... But that's not what I'm talking about.
>>
>>To me it appears like FASA went along with the corporate fashion,
>>got themselves a web page and some email addresses (in reverse
>>order), and left it at that. I've certainly never heard of someone
>>from FASA saying "You've got a cool web page there for our
>>game" except for that one FASA Mike quote in the Archive. (And
>>here I know people will start replying along the lines of "FASA
>>Mike's way too busy to look at every web page" and/or "Why
>>should they?" Don't bother.)
>
>I wonder if any folks writing for FASA right now started off with web pages
>and other fan activities? That would be one hell of a way to support web
>activity and player interaction.

Well, i'm sure some of you if not all have checked out Fasa's site end to
end and in every direction and they do put a section on how to become a
free lance writer for sourcebooks novels anything really they give
guidelines on how to submit and what each product should be like (pages
wise, ask before you change the universe etc..etc...) so i'm sure some have
supported/started from pages. Jake Koke has a pretty sweet site, given he
hasn't done sr totally and its not all about SR but still as an example i'm
sure writing his novels for the SR universe helped that a wee bit :).
----------------------------------------
KzDruid
quicksilver82@*********.com
----------------------------------------
Message no. 27
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:24:29 +0100
At 29-Jun-98 wrote Michael Paff:


>>
>How many errata have YOU seen from FASA. The only ones I've seen are
>for the BBB and Grimmy. I do know that FASA HAS found bugs in rules
>and instead of making an errata available, they quietly correct the
>error in a later revision of the sourcebook (case in point: the
>Encephalon rules in Shadowtech). This ticks me off somewhat - I
>certainly don't have the cash to buy a new revision of a sourcebook
>to get corrected rules.

<RANT>
Exactly Mike a very good example are the shapeshifter rules.
In my book nothing is mentioned about Psyad shifters. But I know from other
people with newer printings that they have rules for such. If the rules are
even sane is another thing. But the thing is that at least three different
Physad shifter rules are printed so far in the SRC and this is something that
pisses me off big time.

I prefere a Errata every time over such (sorry) Assholeness. Do they realy
expect to buy the newer printings or just to go to the store to read them to
see if somerules has changed? I thing not.
</RANT>

--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 28
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:50:55 -0500
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, K is the Symbol wrote:

> > Here's an idea. Anyone who want's to work on FASA's Shadowrun page
> > should volunteer for the job. I would jump at the chance (if I had the
> > time). From what I understand it's not for lack of stuff to put on
> > their web page, but that no one in the SR department has the HTML
> > skills or the desire.
> Uh, no. HTML is no longer a major skill requirement, especially when
> considering the massively powerful encoding page writers that are out there.
> I remember a while ago that there was an advert for a "Web Page
Coordinator"
> at their site for a while. Which to me would be just about the lamest job in
> the world given the above fact about web page creation programs. And FASA
> isn't putting up to it's site(s) any of the potential Errata sheets that it
> could (for small errors at the very least), so it wouldn't be
> changed/corrected very often.
> Now I am not saying I wouldn't enjoy said lamest job in the world, I am just
> saying that without knowing a lot more or without having a -SERIOUS- upgrade
> to their web site(s) function and/or appearance, it wouldn't matter all that
> much.

Have you taken a look at the BattleTech side of the FASA website recently?
They just finished major revamp of it. Totaly new interface and look to
the catalog and product information. Hopefully they will now go on to
redoing the Shadowrun section of the site. Personaly i think that the new
BattleTech design is very nice looking if rather heavy on the grafics
though caching helps that imensly. Anyway i think poor Mike has been a
tad busy between the Corp War, the CCG, and Third Edition. I still want to
see the errata, ship construction rules, an up to date catalog, ect. :)

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 29
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:27:48 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>Dan Gelinske said on 7:24/29 Jun 98,...
>> Not telling people with SR pages to take their sites down because of
>> "copyright infringements" is a good sign of FASA's support, IMNSHO.

>I agree with that, but I think it's also somewhat inevitable. T$R
>tried it a few years ago (urged to by their lawyers, AFAIK) and
>earned said nickname because of it. All the other game
>companies learned from that.

Other companies, unfortunately, do do much what T$R did, only much quieter.
Not all of them, fortunately, but some of the major ones. For example, many
things written for Steve Jackson Game's _In_Nomine_ have a tendency to
migrate towards being hosted on SJG machines. I'm not sure how they
accomplish that. Wizards of the Coast have done a similar thing with many
of the M:TG sites, particularly those that were useful, the Marvin archive
in particular.

Wordman
Message no. 30
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:14:00 +0100
In article <199806291405.KAA27816@********.mindspring.com>, MC23
<mc23@**********.COM> writes
>Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;
>
>>If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
>>the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...
>
> Recognition implies that FASA approves of the material therefore
>it's official material. I know that you would know better but not
>everyone does. I was impressed when they joined the webring. I feel like
>that is very supportive thing to do.

I have to disagree. Take the opposition for example. R.Talsorian.
Links litter their pages to places they like, doesn't make those pages
officially recognised as Cyberpunk 2020 rules additions. R.Tal also
have a habit of adding web material into their sourcebooks in
recognition of the people who write for the game. Note I said for the
GAME, not the company. Now I'm not saying that FASA should do this,
there's some pretty munchy stuff in the CP books, but it wouldn't hurt
their credibility to link to pages they /like/ a Link does not
officially approved make. Another company that does this is Palladium
Games, again, they do not at any time say that because the page is
linked that it is officially recognised rules material, just that they
liked the site. Jeez, why do people always come up with this "If they
do it, it means it's official" crap. Totally untrue.


--
Avenger
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm
(Newbies Survival Guide to Stk & SR stuff)
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/angband/320/index.htm
(UK Survival Guide, SR Guide to the Oceans.)
Message no. 31
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:23:42 -0500
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:24:29 +0100 Barbie <barbie@**********.COM> writes:
>At 29-Jun-98 wrote Michael Paff:
>>>
>>How many errata have YOU seen from FASA. The only ones I've seen are
>>for the BBB and Grimmy. I do know that FASA HAS found bugs in rules
>>and instead of making an errata available, they quietly correct the
>>error in a later revision of the sourcebook (case in point: the
>>Encephalon rules in Shadowtech). This ticks me off somewhat - I
>>certainly don't have the cash to buy a new revision of a sourcebook
>>to get corrected rules.
>
><RANT>
>Exactly Mike a very good example are the shapeshifter rules.
>In my book nothing is mentioned about Psyad shifters. But I know from
other
>people with newer printings that they have rules for such. If the rules
are
>even sane is another thing. But the thing is that at least three
different
>Physad shifter rules are printed so far in the SRC and this is something
that
>pisses me off big time.
>
>I prefere a Errata every time over such (sorry) Assholeness. Do they
realy
>expect to buy the newer printings or just to go to the store to read
them to
>see if somerules has changed? I thing not.
></RANT>
>
>--
>
>-Barbie
<SNIP Sig>

really? I only found a passing reference to PhysAd shapers in my copy of
the SRCo ... :/

Hmmm ... can't tell what printing my copy is ... onlys says copyright
1996 :/

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 32
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:54:55 +0100
At 30-Jun-98 wrote Alfredo B Alves:



>really? I only found a passing reference to PhysAd shapers in my copy of
>the SRCo ... :/

>Hmmm ... can't tell what printing my copy is ... onlys says copyright
>1996 :/

Simple they all have the same printing in their index...not second printing or
so..
Officialy they are all still first printing...


--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:25:45 -0400
Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>To me it appears like FASA went along with the corporate fashion,
>got themselves a web page and some email addresses (in reverse
>order), and left it at that. I've certainly never heard of someone
>from FASA saying "You've got a cool web page there for our
>game" except for that one FASA Mike quote in the Archive. (And
>here I know people will start replying along the lines of "FASA
>Mike's way too busy to look at every web page" and/or "Why
>should they?" Don't bother.)

Gurth, the bottom line is FASA is a business and as such there
primary concern is business. Game companies are not an incredible money
making enterprise. TSR went bankrupt and was bought out by Wizards. GDW
closed down. R.Talsorian is now a part time business. White Wolf had some
layoffs a while back. Right now the whole industry is on uncertain ground
looking to find out which way to go. The corporate mentality you describe
is not one of greed but of self preservation. I'm sorry if I can't agree
with you on what they should do on the net.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 34
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:28:35 -0400
Once upon a time, Barbie wrote;

>Exactly Mike a very good example are the shapeshifter rules.
>In my book nothing is mentioned about Psyad shifters. But I know from other
>people with newer printings that they have rules for such. If the rules are
>even sane is another thing. But the thing is that at least three different
>Physad shifter rules are printed so far in the SRC and this is something that
>pisses me off big time.

Know from people? I'd rather see proof (and this is the first I
heard of it) B>[# That would piss me off as well. Of course the whole
Companion needs to be revised.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 35
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:33:37 -0400
Once upon a time, Wordman wrote;

>Other companies, unfortunately, do do much what T$R did, only much quieter.
>Not all of them, fortunately, but some of the major ones. For example, many
>things written for Steve Jackson Game's _In_Nomine_ have a tendency to
>migrate towards being hosted on SJG machines. I'm not sure how they
>accomplish that.

Illuminati On-Line. They're in Texas with SJG and alot of the SJG
loyalists are signed up with them. If they had service here I'd be on
there too. mc23@**.com. Yep, that sure looks purty. Any it's not a
conspiracy, or at least not the one you are thinking of.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 36
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:48:22 EDT
Quicksilver82 wrote:

>In a galaxy very very close, in a time not long ago Smilin' Ted Wrote:
>>>Now I already know _somebody_ will mention the old line of "If
>>>they were to acknowledge it that would mean everybody would
>>>see the net.stuff as official FASA material" blah blah fucking
>>>blah... But that's not what I'm talking about.
<snip>
>I wonder if any folks writing for FASA right now started off with web pages
>and other fan activities? That would be one hell of a way to support web
>activity and player interaction.

Just wanted to point out that I only wrote the last three lines of the above
message.

Smilin' Ted
Message no. 37
From: Bill Blackbrain <Blackbrain@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:06:13 -0700
On 6/29/98 MC23 wrote:

> Illuminati On-Line. They're in Texas with SJG and alot of the SJG
> loyalists are signed up with them. If they had service here I'd be on
> there too. mc23@**.com. Yep, that sure looks purty. Any it's not a
> conspiracy, or at least not the one you are thinking of.

Io.com still has telnet accounts for those outside of Texas, so you could do
it. However, the reason the SJG loyalists have IO accounts is to get at the SJ
newsgroups and game testing. Since io.com grew out of the SJGames BBS, they
have a lot of game content that is not available to the rest of the Internet.
I would hate to see FASA start a proprietary service like that. Call me crazy,
but I would rather have the free website and spend my money on sourcebooks.

------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Blackbrain | I can't tell if I'm a
Blackbrain@*********.com | cypherpunk or a
PGPKey available at | cryptofascist.
http://www.Mahagonny.com/pgp |
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 38
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:27:55 -0400
Avenger wrote:
Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:14:00 +0100

> In article <199806291405.KAA27816@********.mindspring.com>, MC23
> <mc23@**********.COM> writes
> >Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;
> >
> >>If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
> >>the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...
> >
> > Recognition implies that FASA approves of the material therefore
> >it's official material. I know that you would know better but not
> >everyone does. I was impressed when they joined the webring. I feel like
> >that is very supportive thing to do.
>
> I have to disagree. Take the opposition for example. R.Talsorian.
> Links litter their pages to places they like, doesn't make those pages
> officially recognised as Cyberpunk 2020 rules additions. R.Tal also
> have a habit of adding web material into their sourcebooks in
> recognition of the people who write for the game. Note I said for the
> GAME, not the company. Now I'm not saying that FASA should do this,
> there's some pretty munchy stuff in the CP books, but it wouldn't hurt
> their credibility to link to pages they /like/ a Link does not
> officially approved make. Another company that does this is Palladium
> Games, again, they do not at any time say that because the page is
> linked that it is officially recognised rules material, just that they
> liked the site. Jeez, why do people always come up with this "If they
> do it, it means it's official" crap. Totally untrue.

<snip sig>

Just a thought, since FASA obviously knows there are "glitches" in the
rules... thus the need for updates and errata (sp?), maybe they could allow
volunteer websites post errata pages. These pages could be reviewed by FASA
staff, at their leisure, and then they could say This is approved official
errata info or say this is not approved. The website/webmaster then could
identify which are FASA approved and which are not. FASA could, in turn
provide links to these webpages as ShadowRun associate pages...

--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 39
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:25:54 -0400
Once upon a time, Bill Blackbrain wrote;

>On 6/29/98 MC23 wrote:
>
>> Illuminati On-Line. They're in Texas with SJG and alot of the SJG
>> loyalists are signed up with them. If they had service here I'd be on
>> there too. mc23@**.com. Yep, that sure looks purty. Any it's not a
>> conspiracy, or at least not the one you are thinking of.
>
>Io.com still has telnet accounts for those outside of Texas, so you could do
>it. However, the reason the SJG loyalists have IO accounts is to get at the SJ
>newsgroups and game testing. Since io.com grew out of the SJGames BBS, they
>have a lot of game content that is not available to the rest of the Internet.
>I would hate to see FASA start a proprietary service like that. Call me crazy,
>but I would rather have the free website and spend my money on sourcebooks.

I would just do it for the addy. B>]# Anyway since Pyramid last
printed issue just came out all current subscriptions are all web format.
This service now gives you the access to playtest material like IO
subscribers. Another interesting thing SGJ is trying is a GURPS Russia,
their first mail order only rulebook. They are trying this because of the
limited demand on the book that they felt was deserving enough to be
printed. As I've said before, the industry is looking for where future
lies.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 40
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:53:42 -0400
On 29 Jun 98, at 20:25, MC23 wrote:

> Gurth, the bottom line is FASA is a business and as such there
> primary concern is business. Game companies are not an incredible money
> making enterprise. TSR went bankrupt and was bought out by Wizards. GDW
> closed down. R.Talsorian is now a part time business. White Wolf had some
> layoffs a while back. Right now the whole industry is on uncertain ground
> looking to find out which way to go. The corporate mentality you describe
> is not one of greed but of self preservation. I'm sorry if I can't agree
> with you on what they should do on the net.

Couldn't agree with you more, MC. FASA is profitable; one of the few
game companies that can claim that. Say what you will about their
methods, but we keep buying the books, so they must be doing
something right. :)

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 41
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:34:19 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:32 PM 6/28/98 -0700, Mike wrote:
>How many errata have YOU seen from FASA. The only ones I've seen are
>for the BBB and Grimmy. I do know that FASA HAS found bugs in rules
>and instead of making an errata available, they quietly correct the
>error in a later revision of the sourcebook (case in point: the
>Encephalon rules in Shadowtech). This ticks me off somewhat - I
>certainly don't have the cash to buy a new revision of a sourcebook
>to get corrected rules.

FoF had an errata sheet. (And actually, since you asked how many
errata have I seen from FASA, I could ramble off a huge list of
Battletech products here, but that's not what you meant.)

What were the Encephalon rules changed to? I'm aparently one of the
unlucky sots who has a first printing Shadowtech, so I have the rules
as they were originally.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 42
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:34:38 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:14 PM 6/29/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>To me it appears like FASA went along with the corporate fashion,
>got themselves a web page and some email addresses (in reverse
>order), and left it at that. I've certainly never heard of someone
>from FASA saying "You've got a cool web page there for our
>game" except for that one FASA Mike quote in the Archive. (And
>here I know people will start replying along the lines of "FASA
>Mike's way too busy to look at every web page" and/or "Why
>should they?" Don't bother.)

How about this then: Perhaps FASA's going out of their way _not_ to
look at all those web pages out there. This is just speculation on my
part, but consider this for a moment.

Sooner or later, FASA is going to publish some material that is
remarkably similar to material available on someone's webpage. (Hey,
if Newton and Leibniz can develop Calculus independent of each other's
work, it could happen). The author of the webpage thinks "Hey! They
stole my ideas, and they're making money off of them!" and promptly
sues FASA. If FASA has in place a policy for their developers of
"Don't look at the Shadowrun webpages," then FASA's lawyers can use
that policy in their defense argument that the work that they
published was developed seperately and independently, with no
preexisting knowledge of the content avialable on said website.

I know that WotC has a strict policy about no web or usenet for their
M:tG R&D team. That way, if through paralell development, they invent
a game concept or card mechanic that someone else had come up with and
posted to the net previously, they can still claim that their version
is a independently developed work.

This sort of thing has been a thorny issue for television and movie
studios longer than there's even been an internet. Some yahoo fan of a
particular show sends in an unsolicited script, and then waits for the
studio to produce an episode similar to the script he sent in, just so
he can sue for compensation. Most studios have policies that any
unsolicited scripts are to be immediately discarded upon receipt.

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 43
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:47:10 +0100
In article <199806300027.UAA32686@*******.mindspring.com>, MC23
<mc23@**********.COM> writes

<snip Gurth>
(Heh, I've always wanted to say that) :)

> Gurth, the bottom line is FASA is a business and as such there
>primary concern is business. Game companies are not an incredible money
>making enterprise. TSR went bankrupt and was bought out by Wizards.

TSR went bankrupt, as far as I know, as a result of their own business
practices, not because the game wasn't popular. AD&D is still one of
the widest played games around, but TSR made some seriously fundamental
mistakes, one of them was in getting greedy.

>GDW
>closed down.

I can't remember the reason for that, but it was in my opinion a sad
loss.

>R.Talsorian is now a part time business.

As the owner has said before, several times. R.Tal has laid off some
staff and is not a part time business. It was reduced in size because
it had become unwieldy to operate, and they were losing direction. They
are still supporting and writing material for all the games they've
produced to date. Including the development of CP 2030, continuation of
the Stormfront Corporate war material and the Fuzion system - which I
believe is a generic overall system to cover several games rather than
one, as exists at the moment. It allows the owner of the company more
time to get involved at the ground level with the product he introduced
rather than corporate dealing and high business contracts, which don't
interest him. His first passion is the RPG industry and writing
material, he hasn't been able to do that. So to streamline the company,
cut costs, and get back to what he loves - they went smaller. Part
time? I don't think so.

>White Wolf had some
>layoffs a while back.

And that means? That they are downsizing to cope with economic
conditions? A precursor for bankruptcy? Or simply cutting out deadwood
which tends to build inside companies? Has there been a comparable drop
in sales of their product?

>Right now the whole industry is on uncertain ground
>looking to find out which way to go.

There appears to be very little /innovation/ left in the industry, which
is a different thing altogether. As regards uncertain directions, I
don't know where you've got that from, but it doesn't seem that way from
what I've observed. The game producers I regularly visit, and buy
material from are very certain of the directions they're going in, and
what they hope to achieve in those directions.

There is considerable demand for the game ConspiracyX, more so than the
designers first imagined, that rule book is now going into it's third
printing, and the sourcebooks are on a monthly release schedule.
NME/EDEN are going great guns. The Babylon 5 RPG is also doing very
well thank you, and the source material for that is in high demand, so
much so that the company is allegedly having trouble getting enough out
onto the shelves. Both of these are relatively new games on the market
from relatively new companies. (Although I don't suppose Titan Books
can really be classed as "new")

As far as I know, Palladium and ICE are also doing rather well. The new
ICE material is popular with the players, whereas there seems to be a
never ending demand for RIFTS and Palladium's other game settings.

WOC seem to be doing fine, although their aggressive techniques in the
industry and the market may yet be their downfall if they don't moderate
themselves.

>The corporate mentality you describe
>is not one of greed but of self preservation. I'm sorry if I can't agree
>with you on what they should do on the net.

I disagree that it's self preservation as a motivation, though that of
course comes into it. No company trades without considering itself
above anything else. No company trades unless there is profit to be
made. If the buying public turns it's attention elsewhere, what do you
do? Try to produce something that they want, or fold. In all honesty,
in my not very humble opinion, the CCG market is directly responsible
for the drop in demand for RPGs. I'm not saying that CCG will /kill/
the RPG market, as some card players do cross over, but, playing card
games is a hell of lot less hassle than working statistics and writing
scenarios. Crack for gamers, card games...

How well does Netrunner (R.Tal) sell in comparison to their other
material?

How well does the SR CCG compare in sales to their regular material?

Would this govern the direction of the company? IMO Yes. It's profit,
not preservation.

There are two ways to survive in an industry as cut-throat as RPGs. Get
small, lean and produce something that is tight, well written and
original. Or, get bigger, branch out into other things, and give the
bird to the other companies. We can see both of these in the industry
today. The scaling down of some companies and the growth into new areas
for others. WOC and FASA are prime examples of growth. NME, Palladium,
R.Tal are examples of down sizing.

Both principles work, and it doesn't mean the industry is in imminent
danger of collapse.

--
Avenger
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm
(Newbies Survival Guide to Stk & SR stuff)
http://www.freespace.virgin.net/p.siems/index.htm
(UK Survival Guide, SR Guide to the Oceans.)
Message no. 44
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:54:12 -0700
Maybe we should have a Linux varient of ShadowRun?
User supported. Rapid fire updates. Up to three kernal patches a day? ;)

Actually, I'd love to see the ShadowFAQ expanded. I love the
"Vanila/Varient <diget>" breakdowns of issues.

-Rob
Message no. 45
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:22:12 +0100
In article <35983F1B.9F8F035D@*********.com>, Iridios
<iridios@*********.COM> writes
>Avenger wrote:
>Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:14:00 +0100
>

>> Games, again, they do not at any time say that because the page is
>> linked that it is officially recognised rules material, just that they
>> liked the site. Jeez, why do people always come up with this "If they
>> do it, it means it's official" crap. Totally untrue.
>
><snip sig>
>
>Just a thought, since FASA obviously knows there are "glitches" in the
>rules... thus the need for updates and errata (sp?), maybe they could allow
>volunteer websites post errata pages.

As far as I'm aware that already happens. The currently available
errata are usually AFAIK on the Shadowrun Archive, there's a couple of
unofficial errata elsewhere on the net.

Having said that I've downloaded Earth Dawn errata for a friend from the
FASA web site. I guess that sort of thing is either done, or it isn't.
Considering their development schedule, I'm very surprised that they
haven't hired someone to work on their web pages. Considering the power
and accessibility of the net they're missing out on a lot of things.

>These pages could be reviewed by FASA
>staff, at their leisure, and then they could say This is approved official
>errata info or say this is not approved.

Unfortunately approval of such things "at their leisure" is what holds
up the process now. The staff working on Shadowrun simply don't have
the time to fiddle with things like this. Digging through 50-100
submissions of errata would be a nightmare for Mike, and farming it out
means one of the other developers would be occupied in cross referencing
and checking rather than working on "product". FASA are a corporation,
and unfortunately "Product" rules.

>The website/webmaster then could
>identify which are FASA approved and which are not.

Again, how would FASA be fair in judging one against another? Say four
people from this list submitted identical sheets. FASA choose one above
the other four - because they happened to come across it first - we've
already seen how some people will savage FASA for silly infractions, how
would these people understand why their "identical" sheet wasn't chosen
as well.

Would they understand it's because FASA staff have limited time? Or just
bitch about it?

>FASA could, in turn
>provide links to these webpages as ShadowRun associate pages...

I don't see a problem with links. I think FASA deserve some credit for
recognising and joining the web ring. It's nice to think they made
/that/ much effort considering their general "apparent" attitude towards
the net. But there's another factor.

The (as I call it) "Bull" factor. Look at the wondrous titles that Bull
has awarded himself over the last year, and the crowing when he gets
something he likes (no offence Bull, but you are rather *loud*) :). Now
imagine someone who isn't as amusing as Bull, and add some arrogance
into that... Hey presto, we have a problem. Add to that the "sig file"
that will result, and the possibility that they've got an utterly shite
site...

If FASA find a site that they like - such as Mike's comment on the
Archive, then it is not too hard for them to add a link to that site to
their web page, and in my opinion it doesn't instantly make that site an
"official" one. (Though in the case of the Archive, if the comment is
true, it's unfair of FASA not to have linked it.)

If they have an errata produced, then it shouldn't be hard to simply
post the text file and a link to it on their own web site. It really is
the matter of a few seconds to do that, everyone can spare a few seconds
out of their lives.

As regards unofficial errata sheets, I don't see a problem with people
producing them and posting them to this list for others to see and
comment upon. We know that FASA personnel read this list from time to
time, and it's possible that one of them may comment, and say "Yes
that's fine, use that." It can then be posted onto the Archive and it's
"official" until FASA themselves get round to writing their own.


--
Avenger
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm
(Newbies Survival Guide to Stk & SR stuff)
http://www.freespace.virgin.net/p.siems/index.htm
(UK Survival Guide, SR Guide to the Oceans.)
Message no. 46
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:49:34 +0100
In article <199806300030.UAA14434@********.mindspring.com>, MC23
<mc23@**********.COM> writes
>Once upon a time, Barbie wrote;
>
<snip>
>>even sane is another thing. But the thing is that at least three different
>>Physad shifter rules are printed so far in the SRC and this is something that
>>pisses me off big time.
>
> Know from people? I'd rather see proof (and this is the first I
>heard of it) B>[# That would piss me off as well.

I've seen three companions, all bought over the last few months since it
was released, and they all appear to be identical to me. Perhaps it
changes somewhat in translation to other languages - it wouldn't be the
first time that's happened.

>Of course the whole
>Companion needs to be revised.

Agreed. The Companion needs to be taken out into a field somewhere and
shot in the back of the head. Re-written and released later with
sensible rules and ideas in it.

--
Avenger
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm
(Newbies Survival Guide to Stk & SR stuff)
http://www.freespace.virgin.net/p.siems/index.htm
(UK Survival Guide, SR Guide to the Oceans.)
Message no. 47
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:57:44 +0100
MC23 said on 20:25/29 Jun 98,...

> Gurth, the bottom line is FASA is a business and as such there
> primary concern is business. Game companies are not an incredible money
> making enterprise. TSR went bankrupt and was bought out by Wizards. GDW
> closed down. R.Talsorian is now a part time business. White Wolf had some
> layoffs a while back. Right now the whole industry is on uncertain ground
> looking to find out which way to go. The corporate mentality you describe
> is not one of greed but of self preservation. I'm sorry if I can't agree
> with you on what they should do on the net.

What does one thing have to do with the other here? I'm not
talking about greed, self-preservation, lay-offs, comapnies
shutting down, or whatever. I'm saying that it appears to me
FASA doesn't pay attention to the internet. That has nothing to
do with greed or whatever -- as a matter of fact, you for some
reason use that word while I never even hinted at it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 48
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:57:44 +0100
Wordman said on 19:27/29 Jun 98,...

> Other companies, unfortunately, do do much what T$R did, only much quieter.
> Not all of them, fortunately, but some of the major ones. For example, many
> things written for Steve Jackson Game's _In_Nomine_ have a tendency to
> migrate towards being hosted on SJG machines. I'm not sure how they
> accomplish that. Wizards of the Coast have done a similar thing with many
> of the M:TG sites, particularly those that were useful, the Marvin archive
> in particular.

Isn't that a different approach? T$R wanted all the unofficial
material off the net, BBSes, and everywhere else. What you're
saying is that SJG, WotC, etc. are hosting the unofficial stuff on
their own sites. perhaps it's to keep an eye on it, but if what you
say is true (I haven't looked into this) then they're not trying to
get it all removed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 49
From: KzDruid <quicksilver82@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:51:00 -0400
Not too long ago in a galaxy very, very close D.Ghost wrote:
>>>How many errata have YOU seen from FASA. The only ones I've seen are
>>>for the BBB and Grimmy. I do know that FASA HAS found bugs in rules
>>>and instead of making an errata available, they quietly correct the
>>>error in a later revision of the sourcebook (case in point: the
>>>Encephalon rules in Shadowtech). This ticks me off somewhat - I
>>>certainly don't have the cash to buy a new revision of a sourcebook
>>>to get corrected rules.
>>
>><RANT>
>>Exactly Mike a very good example are the shapeshifter rules.
>>In my book nothing is mentioned about Psyad shifters. But I know from
>other
>>people with newer printings that they have rules for such. If the rules
>are
>>even sane is another thing. But the thing is that at least three
>different
>>Physad shifter rules are printed so far in the SRC and this is something
>that
>>pisses me off big time.
>>
>>I prefere a Errata every time over such (sorry) Assholeness. Do they
>realy
>>expect to buy the newer printings or just to go to the store to read
>them to
>>see if somerules has changed? I thing not.
>></RANT>
>>
>>--
>>
>>-Barbie
><SNIP Sig>
>
>really? I only found a passing reference to PhysAd shapers in my copy of
>the SRCo ... :/
>
>Hmmm ... can't tell what printing my copy is ... onlys says copyright
>1996 :/
>
>D.Ghost

K, well i must have a first printing too because my SRCo dosen't even
mention Shifters as PhysAds, but, and i know this seems liek the whole
they're making us buy books to get info on stuff that should have been
there all along, the rules will probably be printed in the Source Book
updates section of SR3 of course this is only a geuss and i'm taking a
blind leap but i'm pretty sure alot of us will be buying SR3. Yes, yes, i
do know thats not the point but still i could be right, its happened before.
----------------------------------------
KzDruid
quicksilver82@*********.com
----------------------------------------
Message no. 50
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:22:40 -0400
Once upon a time, Avenger wrote;

>>R.Talsorian is now a part time business.
>
>As the owner has said before, several times. R.Tal has laid off some
>staff and is not a part time business. It was reduced in size because
>it had become unwieldy to operate, and they were losing direction. They
>are still supporting and writing material for all the games they've
>produced to date. Including the development of CP 2030, continuation of
>the Stormfront Corporate war material and the Fuzion system - which I
>believe is a generic overall system to cover several games rather than
>one, as exists at the moment. It allows the owner of the company more
>time to get involved at the ground level with the product he introduced
>rather than corporate dealing and high business contracts, which don't
>interest him. His first passion is the RPG industry and writing
>material, he hasn't been able to do that. So to streamline the company,
>cut costs, and get back to what he loves - they went smaller. Part
>time? I don't think so.

Pyramid 30 Industry News
press release quote from Mike Pondsmith,
"I'm going back to me day job."
"After almost a year of serious thought on the matter, I have
decided that I'm overdue for a badly needed break from the game industry.
And the best way to get that break is to scale R. Talsorian Games down to
a part-time operation."
"We're just reducing the scope of the operation to part-time"

I still have an interest in keeping up with the industry.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"When _I_ use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful
tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
-Through the Looking Glass

I am MC23
Message no. 51
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:31:02 -0400
Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>What does one thing have to do with the other here? I'm not
>talking about greed, self-preservation, lay-offs, comapnies
>shutting down, or whatever. I'm saying that it appears to me
>FASA doesn't pay attention to the internet. That has nothing to
>do with greed or whatever -- as a matter of fact, you for some
>reason use that word while I never even hinted at it...

I'm saying that FASA time is better spent producing game material
than spent on non-profit areas. Time and manpower is the issue to me. Why
should FASA's site be anything but a catalog and showroom? Maybe I should
be asking is what do you want FASA to be doing on line? All I know is
that you think it's not enough which I think it is for the most part.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 52
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:40:10 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:54 PM 6/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Maybe we should have a Linux varient of ShadowRun?
>User supported. Rapid fire updates. Up to three kernal patches a
day? ;)

Actually, I've wondered why no game company has ever tried to treat
their game systems more like software, and issue out License
Agreements for the use of their intellectual property.

They could even have a clause in there about publishing derivative
works (i.e. House Rules) provided that the derivative work be made
freely available (so no one makes money off of FASA's product but
FASA) and provided that FASA retains the right to incorporate the
derivative work into future versions of the core product.

This would be decidedly cool, if it ever came to pass.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 53
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:09:25 -0600
At 11:40 30/06/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Actually, I've wondered why no game company has ever tried to treat
>their game systems more like software, and issue out License
>Agreements for the use of their intellectual property.

ERmpgh. Without saying too much, this is an idea that a partner and myself
have considered for a certain product.

-Adam J
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 54
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:12:51 -0600
At 20:32 28/06/98 -0700, you wrote:

>How many errata have YOU seen from FASA.

6 official ones, all avail at the SR Archive.

> I do know that FASA HAS found bugs in rules
>and instead of making an errata available, they quietly correct the
>error in a later revision of the sourcebook (case in point: the
>Encephalon rules in Shadowtech). This ticks me off somewhat - I
>certainly don't have the cash to buy a new revision of a sourcebook
>to get corrected rules.

This is truly annoying, but it's better than leaving it wrong in all the
sourcebooks. :)

-Adam
Two days behind on mail and catching up!
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 55
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:14:23 -0600
At 07:35 29/06/98 -0600, you wrote:

>/ If I want to complain about something to do with Shadowrun on
>/ the net, it's FASA's lack of recognition/support/whatever for it...
>
>...you're kidding. I mean, sure, FASA's Shadowrun page is pretty
>lame. But look at the ammount of freedom they give us on our web
>pages. Not once have I had a FASA rep contact me telling me I can't
>use their logo or their name, or whatever, on my web page.

Well, that's a plus.

>And the number and quality of Shadowrun pages on the web is astounding.

Number yes. Quality? Of some, yes. Of most, no.

>Here's an idea. Anyone who want's to work on FASA's Shadowrun page
>should volunteer for the job. I would jump at the chance (if I had the
>time). From what I understand it's not for lack of stuff to put on
>their web page, but that no one in the SR department has the HTML
>skills or the desire.

AFAIK several people have done this to no response.

-Adam
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 56
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:30:33 -0600
At 04:22 30/06/98 +0100, you wrote:

>>FASA could, in turn
>>provide links to these webpages as ShadowRun associate pages...
>
>I don't see a problem with links. I think FASA deserve some credit for
>recognising and joining the web ring. It's nice to think they made
>/that/ much effort considering their general "apparent" attitude towards
>the net. But there's another factor.

Joining the webring merely saved them the hassle of looking at a pile of
Shadowrun sites and sorting the good from the shite and linking to them.

It's nice that they went that far -- but they could go a whole hell of a
lot further. Look at SJGames site for a really damn good example of a site
done *well*. I would have never bought anything SJG related, but their web
site sold me on it. I knew I could count on errattas, links, FAQ's. Hell,
I can mail Steve Jackson about something trivial as hell and get a response
within a day, sometimes within an hour.

>If FASA find a site that they like - such as Mike's comment on the
>Archive, then it is not too hard for them to add a link to that site to
>their web page, and in my opinion it doesn't instantly make that site an
>"official" one. (Though in the case of the Archive, if the comment is
>true, it's unfair of FASA not to have linked it.)

It's true. :)

It would be nice to log onto FASA's site and see something to the effect of
"Tuesday, June 30th: Added 6 links to the Shadowrun links section. Check
out such-and-such a link, where so and so just wrote a short story about
the corp war!".

Show us that you care about us playing in your game, and not just about us
buying your books.

>As regards unofficial errata sheets, I don't see a problem with people
>producing them and posting them to this list for others to see and
>comment upon. We know that FASA personnel read this list from time to
>time, and it's possible that one of them may comment, and say "Yes
>that's fine, use that." It can then be posted onto the Archive and it's
>"official" until FASA themselves get round to writing their own.

Un-official errata sheets = House Rules.

-Adam J
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 57
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:38:52 -0600
At 09:31 30/06/98 -0400, you wrote:

>>What does one thing have to do with the other here? I'm not
>>talking about greed, self-preservation, lay-offs, comapnies
>>shutting down, or whatever. I'm saying that it appears to me
>>FASA doesn't pay attention to the internet. That has nothing to
>>do with greed or whatever -- as a matter of fact, you for some
>>reason use that word while I never even hinted at it...
>
> I'm saying that FASA time is better spent producing game material
>than spent on non-profit areas. Time and manpower is the issue to me. Why
>should FASA's site be anything but a catalog and showroom? Maybe I should
>be asking is what do you want FASA to be doing on line? All I know is
>that you think it's not enough which I think it is for the most part.

Non-profit!?
Okay -- 50,000 hits to the FASA web site in a month isn't going to produce
a spec of direct profit for them. But, and like I said previously, if I
know that I can get errattas, expansions, support, etc, I'm going to buy
something from that company if it looks interesting. If something from
another company looks interesting but they don't seem to have the support
in place, I'm simply not going to buy it.

Sure, FASA's time is well spent producing game material. It is, after all,
the companies focus. But -- and let's use the case of the Rigger 2 errata.
It's sitting on Mike's desk, and he's triple-checking to make sure R2 and
SR3 all match up according to the current errata. That's great. But *why*
can't he email to file to Randall down the hall and say "Hey, can you post
this to the web page? I might have a new version in awhile, and probably
for sure after SR3, but it will only take 5 minutes."

Rigger 2 has been out since November/December. Shadowrun 3 won't be out
till August/September. Why are we stuck with Rigger 2 but without an
erratta, on the promise that it will be released after SR3 so they match up?

I don't care if my R2 errata matches my SR3, because I don't have my SR3
right now! :P

FASA could do alot of simple and cool things online. Posting out-takes
from the books could be one, as is a simple mailing list for product news
and announcements, general "Fun" stuff, such as small contests, links to
fan material, etc.

They've made steps in the right direction, but they're baby steps in a
world taking running leaps.

-Adam J
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 58
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:16:19 -0600
At 07:24 29/06/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Very true... but adding to your point, look at how much interaction in a
>positive
>manner does exist between FASA and us in the Shadowrun net community. Both
>Jon Szeto and Steve Kenson (and probably a couple others I am forgetting,
hold
>that carp!)

Both freelancers. Steve is very prolific, but AFAIK he isn't a full-time
staffer, and he does do work for other companies.

Yes, it's bloody nice having them on the list, and I enjoy their presence
and conversing with them on and off list, but they aren't FASA staffers.
They're Shadowrun fans.

-Adam J
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 59
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:25:11 -0600
At 23:34 29/06/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Sooner or later, FASA is going to publish some material that is
>remarkably similar to material available on someone's webpage. (Hey,
>if Newton and Leibniz can develop Calculus independent of each other's
>work, it could happen). The author of the webpage thinks "Hey! They
>stole my ideas, and they're making money off of them!" and promptly
>sues FASA. If FASA has in place a policy for their developers of
>"Don't look at the Shadowrun webpages," then FASA's lawyers can use
>that policy in their defense argument that the work that they
>published was developed seperately and independently, with no
>preexisting knowledge of the content avialable on said website.

This may be a bit true. I can't remember, but I know one of the FASA
freelancers mentioned that he doesn't read "Fan" material for that reason
-- It may have been Jak Koke, but I could be wrong in this case.

I know Mike doesn't subscribe to this policy, because he saw Linda
Naughtons rules for skill advancement on the web and bought the rights to
use them off her, AFAIK.

-Adam J
You're too close to me. I'm suing you for stealing my air.
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 60
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:18:23 -0600
At 16:39 29/06/98 EDT, you wrote:

>I wonder if any folks writing for FASA right now started off with web pages
>and other fan activities? That would be one hell of a way to support web
>activity and player interaction.

A couple -- Linda Naughton for one. Steve and Jon both participated in
Scrawls from the Sprawls, and Steve got his break when Tom Dowd asked some
members of AOL's online forum for "Stuff" for Grimmey 2.

But, you would know this if you had read the interviews of them in TSS.
</plug>

-Adam J
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 61
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:21:58 -0600
At 21:27 29/06/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Just a thought, since FASA obviously knows there are "glitches" in the
>rules... thus the need for updates and errata (sp?), maybe they could allow
>volunteer websites post errata pages. These pages could be reviewed by FASA
>staff, at their leisure, and then they could say This is approved official
>errata info or say this is not approved. The website/webmaster then could
>identify which are FASA approved and which are not. FASA could, in turn
>provide links to these webpages as ShadowRun associate pages...
^^^^^^^^^
What game are you talking about there? It doesn't exist.

Having volunteers do stuff for FASA such as errata, then have someone at
FASA (Mike, in SR's case) approve it would take just as much time as Mike
re-writing it from scratch. He would still have to hunt up all the
references, check that the volunteer didn't make any mistakes, etc.

If you want something done right, do it yourself..

-Adam J
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 62
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:14:07 +0100
MC23 said on 9:31/30 Jun 98,...

> Maybe I should
> be asking is what do you want FASA to be doing on line? All I know is
> that you think it's not enough which I think it is for the most part.

Once again you're confusing things. (Remember the first time you
did that on this list? :) I'm not making any ground-breaking
statements when I say I feel the SR section of FASA's web site is
rather lame; a lot of others feel that way too. However, I don't
really care about that; I don't often use the WWW myself anyway,
except when I'm looking for something specific.

What I've been talking about all along, and which very few of you
appear to understand, is that I feel FASA ... how shall I say this
... don't appear to know what's going on on the net. Yes, Mike
joined this mailing list at one time and (from what we heard)
looks/looked at some WWW pages, but has anything actually
come out of this? Even something as simple as recognition that
some peoples' web sites are interesting and add some good stuff
to the game?

And since this is you I'm replying to, MC23, I don't mean what
you seem to think of as recognition, namely "this is official SR
material" but rather I mean the "hey, this is cool, keep up the
good work"-kind of recognition.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 63
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:14:07 +0100
Paul Gettle said on 11:40/30 Jun 98,...

> Actually, I've wondered why no game company has ever tried to treat
> their game systems more like software, and issue out License
> Agreements for the use of their intellectual property.

Not sure if it has gone exactly that way, but for a number of
game systems there are (and/or have been) books published by
others than the publisher of the original game. FASA started out
this way, publishing stuff for GDW's Traveller; there are also
many adventures for Cyberpunk 2020, but written and published
by Atlas Games and Ianus rather than Talsorian.

In a way, the German Germany Sourcebook and the French
France Sourcebook are similar to that, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 64
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:38:20 -0400
On 30 Jun 98, at 20:14, Gurth wrote:

> come out of this? Even something as simple as recognition that
> some peoples' web sites are interesting and add some good stuff
> to the game?
>
> And since this is you I'm replying to, MC23, I don't mean what
> you seem to think of as recognition, namely "this is official SR
> material" but rather I mean the "hey, this is cool, keep up the
> good work"-kind of recognition.

Well, I'm not MC, but I think I get the rub now...

Recently someone suggested that we should let FASA know when we
approve of their work by sending them positive feedback. Wasn't it
you Gurth that replied that must be a cultural thing, because on your
side of the pond you only let a company know when it is doing poorly?

Isn't this the same thing? You want FASA to pat you on the back, but
don't think it necessary to return the favor?
I know we come from different perspectives. I have never produced any
net supplement, nor do I maintain a very good repository of Shadowrun
information. You on the other hand do, so I can understand your need
for approval. I think what you fail to realize is that you have the
recognition you desire: from us, your peers, and fellow gamers. Your
efforts are not only appreciated, but applauded. Is FASA's opinions
really that important to you? I rather have as my claim to fame that
people talk about me and my website, rather than FASAMike liked my
website.

All IMHO, of course.

--


=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 65
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:48:04 -0400
Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>MC23 said on 9:31/30 Jun 98,...
>
>> Maybe I should
>> be asking is what do you want FASA to be doing on line? All I know is
>> that you think it's not enough which I think it is for the most part.
>
>Once again you're confusing things. (Remember the first time you
>did that on this list? :)

Confused? Nah, I was just rabid then. B>]#

<snip>
>And since this is you I'm replying to, MC23, I don't mean what
>you seem to think of as recognition, namely "this is official SR
>material" but rather I mean the "hey, this is cool, keep up the
>good work"-kind of recognition.

OK, that's what you're after. Here is really the biggest question I
have about this. Why? With the search engines out there, and webpages
dedicated to being universal link centers and such why should FASA
duplicate an already overabundance of information the Web has. How many
pages are there right now that are nothing but links to other pages. It's
part of the same reason I have yet to put up my own webpage. I don't want
to put up something that more or less already exists.
Of course Shadowrun Charlotte Sprawl and that Quarantine project of
mine needs to go up but I hate to put up a work in progress. Then again
work in progress is a perpetual state of existence with me. B>[#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 66
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:23:16 -0400
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At 08:14 PM 6/30/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Paul Gettle said on 11:40/30 Jun 98,...
>
>> Actually, I've wondered why no game company has ever tried to treat
>> their game systems more like software, and issue out License
>> Agreements for the use of their intellectual property.
>
>Not sure if it has gone exactly that way, but for a number of
>game systems there are (and/or have been) books published by
>others than the publisher of the original game. FASA started out
>this way, publishing stuff for GDW's Traveller; there are also
>many adventures for Cyberpunk 2020, but written and published
>by Atlas Games and Ianus rather than Talsorian.

I wasn't so much interested into licensing the stuff out to other
companies... That happens quite a lot, actually, so I'm well aware of
it.

I was refering to the concept of an End User License Agreement, much
like you'll find with any software package today.

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 67
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:51:31 +0100
At 30-Jun-98 wrote MC23:

> Know from people? I'd rather see proof (and this is the first I
>heard of it) B>[# That would piss me off as well. Of course the whole
>Companion needs to be revised.

Ok my version pf the SRC bought right after it came out did not mention
PAD shifters at all.
My IRC GM Tim Bradly told me that his verion says that PAD shifters has to
chose
in which form the power works.
And from Dr Ghost aka Alfredo and from the version now in the stores I know
that
it says that no PAD powers can be used in animal form.


--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 68
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:22:00 +0100
At 30-Jun-98 wrote Avenger:



>I've seen three companions, all bought over the last few months since it
>was released, and they all appear to be identical to me. Perhaps it
>changes somewhat in translation to other languages - it wouldn't be the
>first time that's happened.

Nope all are english versions.

--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 69
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:03:40 +0200
Paul Gettle wrote:

> I was refering to the concept of an End User License Agreement, much
> like you'll find with any software package today.

Interesting sidenote: the M$ EULA and most software licenses
you have to aknowledge (misspelling that ? : ) before installing
said software are by common jurisdiction in germany
considered not binding....

--
ArcLight,
who is somewhat infirm with the english language;
sorry for that : )
ICQ#14322211
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Message no. 70
From: Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:43:11 +1000
On Shadowrun Discussion, MC23[SMTP:mc23@**********.COM] wrote:
> Once upon a time, Avenger wrote;
>
> >>R.Talsorian is now a part time business.
> >
> >As the owner has said before, several times. R.Tal has laid off some
> >staff and is not a part time business. It was reduced in size
because
> >it had become unwieldy to operate, and they were losing direction.
<<<SNIP>>>
> >It allows the owner of the company more
> >time to get involved at the ground level with the product he
introduced
> >rather than corporate dealing and high business contracts, which
don't
> >interest him. His first passion is the RPG industry and writing
> >material, he hasn't been able to do that. So to streamline the
company,
> >cut costs, and get back to what he loves - they went smaller. Part
> >time? I don't think so.
>
> Pyramid 30 Industry News
> press release quote from Mike Pondsmith,
> "I'm going back to me day job."
> "After almost a year of serious thought on the matter, I have
> decided that I'm overdue for a badly needed break from the game
industry.
> And the best way to get that break is to scale R. Talsorian Games down
to
> a part-time operation."
> "We're just reducing the scope of the operation to part-time"
>
> I still have an interest in keeping up with the industry.

Mike P is a member of the Castle Falkenstein mailing list and he told us
that he had to spend 95% of his time doing management things, instead of
spending his time writing game material. He also had to concentrate on
putting out books that were guaranteed to make money, so they could
cover the rent and stuff like that. By cutting back to part time, they
gave up a lot of their overhead and could concentrate on writing better
material. For us CF fans, he also said that he might be able to put out
more material as they could probably afford to do a smaller print run of
some stuff. Having said that, there still hasn't been any announcements
of new CF material.

cheers
G

--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

"That rates about a 9.5 on my weird-shit-o-meter"
- Will Smith in "Men in Black"
Message no. 71
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:56:15 -0400
Gurth said:
>Wordman said on 19:27/29 Jun 98,...
>
>> Other companies, unfortunately, do do much what T$R did, only much quieter.
>
>Isn't that a different approach? T$R wanted all the unofficial
>material off the net, BBSes, and everywhere else. What you're
>saying is that SJG, WotC, etc. are hosting the unofficial stuff on
>their own sites. perhaps it's to keep an eye on it, but if what you
>say is true (I haven't looked into this) then they're not trying to
>get it all removed.

Correct. I was under the impression that's what TSR did, but I guess I'm
mistaken. (I haven't even looked at a TSR product in about a decade.) On the
other hand, I do know that a number of things that used to be available for
Magic:The Gathering I can't find anymore, particularly Mac software.

Wordman
Message no. 72
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:37:29 +0100
Wordman said on 23:56/30 Jun 98,...

> Correct. I was under the impression that's what TSR did, but I guess I'm
> mistaken. (I haven't even looked at a TSR product in about a decade.)

I thought you'd have been up-to-date on this back when it was
going on...

> On the
> other hand, I do know that a number of things that used to be available for
> Magic:The Gathering I can't find anymore, particularly Mac software.

That doesn't necessarily mean WotC did the same thing T$R tried
to; I can think if a number of other explanations for why it's not
around anymore.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 73
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:37:28 +0100
Tim Kerby said on 14:38/30 Jun 98,...

> Recently someone suggested that we should let FASA know when we
> approve of their work by sending them positive feedback. Wasn't it
> you Gurth that replied that must be a cultural thing, because on your
> side of the pond you only let a company know when it is doing poorly?

I think that's how it came across, but that's not what I intended
to say.

> Isn't this the same thing? You want FASA to pat you on the back, but
> don't think it necessary to return the favor?

I don't need anyone to pat me on the back; I guess what I'm
looking for is more an acknowledgement that people are doing
things for SR in their free time than praise for that. _That_ is
what I think FASA has not done, but is in need of doing (except if
they do it because I/you/they/we complain about it -- forced
recognition is worse than none at all, IMO).

> I know we come from different perspectives. I have never produced any
> net supplement, nor do I maintain a very good repository of Shadowrun
> information. You on the other hand do, so I can understand your need
> for approval. I think what you fail to realize is that you have the
> recognition you desire: from us, your peers, and fellow gamers.

I don't fail to recognize that, but I guess you have a point.

> Your
> efforts are not only appreciated, but applauded. Is FASA's opinions
> really that important to you? I rather have as my claim to fame that
> people talk about me and my website, rather than FASAMike liked my
> website.

Liek I said above, it's not whether FASAMike likes the stuff I do
(or anyone else) that matters to me, it's whether they're aware of
what's going on. And it appears to me like they aren't.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 74
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:24:24 -0600
Gurth wrote, in reference to FASA's Shadowrun site and web presence:
/
/ ...it's not whether FASAMike likes the stuff I do
/ (or anyone else) that matters to me, it's whether they're aware of
/ what's going on. And it appears to me like they aren't.

[Geez, I'm sick for a few days and the list gets flooded ;)]

Okay, I just plowed through this thread and have been thinking things
over.

Gurth is right, FASA's Shadowrun department don't seem to have a
connection with the WWW.

I know why.

The people in the Shadowrun department (at least those that have any
say) aren't net junkies.

My email experience with FASAMike is as follows: email him about
something important and he *might* email you back in a month. From
what I understand others have had the same experience. The best way to
get ahold of Mike is to call him on the phone.

Mike is not an internet person. He knows it's there, but it lives on
the edge of his world. Whereas with most of us we realize it's
importance (and fun value :) and the internet is an integral part of
our world.

I use the net, play on it, fiddle with it, know it. Mike checks it
out. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Mike's perception of
the world, just that's the way it is, IMHO. He unsubscribed from
ShadowRN because there was *to much email* <playful boggle>

Until FASA hires someone to work for the Shadowrun department that has
an avid interest in the internet and the WWW I suspect things aren't
going to change much with regards to their web page. I.e., one of us
is going to have to get a job with FASA ;)

And, keep this in mind. *We* are net junkies. In the discussions that
occur on ShadowRN I think we forget that not everyone loves the
internet like we do, or even understands it :) (I have several
co-workers that claim to love email but don't know the first thing
about netiquette, and I just nod and smile politely when they say
that. Then there's Jon, who calls me at my extension saying, "You
gotta come over and check this out," and I rush right over to see what
he's found on the web.)

I guess my point is, understand that Mike's perceptions concerning the
web are not the same as ours, and probably never will be. Just keep
your fingers crossed and know that sooner or later one of our kind will
invade the Shadowrun department and set things straight :):):):)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 75
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:02:45 -0400
On 1 Jul 98, at 12:37, Gurth wrote:

> Like I said above, it's not whether FASAMike likes the stuff I do
> (or anyone else) that matters to me, it's whether they're aware of
> what's going on. And it appears to me like they aren't.

Ok, now I understand, and I guess I would agree, especially after
reading David's post on the subject. But just because they don't seem
to be aware of what's going on doesn't make those things any less
important or appreciated, which is what I was trying to say.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 76
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:40:54 +0100
Tim Kerby said on 11:02/1 Jul 98,...

> Ok, now I understand, and I guess I would agree, especially after
> reading David's post on the subject.

His post is a good explanation for why they don't seem to be
aware of what's going on here on the net, yes...

> But just because they don't seem
> to be aware of what's going on doesn't make those things any less
> important or appreciated, which is what I was trying to say.

Of course not, and I know that... it's just that I find it a bit
frustrating that there is so little encouragement (or whatever you
want to call it) from the "official" side of SR.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

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