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Message no. 1
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:53:37 -0400
At 11:34 PM 6/29/98 -0400, you wrote:

>How about this then: Perhaps FASA's going out of their way _not_ to
>look at all those web pages out there. This is just speculation on my
>part, but consider this for a moment.

Possible, but not likely. I know for a fact that Linda Naughton's material
regarding learning skills was first published on AOL and her own website
long before appearing in the SRCompanion.

Responses to this general thread:

FASA is an extremely busy place, especially right now trying to get
everything ready and right for GenCon. Most people work about an eight
hour day. FASA folks are working a few hours more per day; perhaps not
normally, but that's the feedback I'm getting. They don't just sit around
and play games all day, they bust their asses just like any nearly any
other working stiff.

I really don't understand where all this dissatisfaction is coming from. I
know over on FASA's official board on AOL there is some mounting concern
that SR3 will make all their previous books obsolete. Perhaps something
similar is happening here. SR3 will not make your investment in SR2
obsolete or a waste of your hard-earned money. I have been assured by
several folks, including a few within FASA itself, that
backwards-compatability is an important issue to them.

Yes, certain things could be improved. The track adventure system could
use additional substance and be a bit more structured and less "here's an
idea, now run with it."

And yes, it can be annoying to have to flip through several books to find
one rule. But that is the price I am more than happy to pay for a game and
a game world that is constantly expanding and improving.

Errata? Last errata I saw was for Fields of Fire. If folks e-mail me
privately to my AOL address (wildsmashr@***.com) with an obvious subject
header, I will dig through AOL's archives and find those errata that are
available, which should include Fields of Fire, but I won't promise
anything. Remember also that Jon has said that R2 errata are being held
back to ensure complete compatability with SR3.

And now onto the Internet.

First and foremost, FASA is trying. They have recently announced plans to
revamp the entire site, which will include online purchasing of their
products. The fact of the matter is, FASA makes their money publishing
real books. The Internet is a loss-leader for them, as it is with the
majority of businesses. And as such, the Internet tends to receive less of
FASA's already scarce time and resources. But FASA is trying and we simply
have to be patient with them. Joining the webring was a huge
acknowledgement for them that not only are there a lot of SR sites out
there, but that they want to be a part of that growth.

I know this will make me look like a FASA apologist to some, but I'm not.
I like their games, I respect their company and their general policies and
I'm willing to spend my money and time to show that. But I also know that
there are problems that need to be fixed. I just don't think that griping
and whining about them on RN is terribly constructive, even if folks like
Jon and Steve do suscribe to the list.

If you don't like how FASA handles their errata or their website or
whatever, send an e-mail to FASAMike@***.com and probably also to
FASAInfo@***.com. Don't bitch and whine like I've seen a few people here,
but instead, in a calm and business-like tone, explain what and why the
problem is and propose a solution.

I just came up with a solution for the fact that their SR section of the
site hasn't been updated in forever and a day and I'll be sending that off
this morning.

But I also regularly send e-mail comments, questions and kudos to Mike,
Steve and Randall both via e-mail and postings to their AOL bulletin board.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 2
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:45:42 -0400
>I really don't understand where all this dissatisfaction is coming from. I
>know over on FASA's official board on AOL there is some mounting concern
>that SR3 will make all their previous books obsolete. Perhaps something
>similar is happening here. SR3 will not make your investment in SR2
>obsolete or a waste of your hard-earned money. I have been assured by
>several folks, including a few within FASA itself, that
>backwards-compatability is an important issue to them.

I'm gonna jump in here. One that as a playtester the backward compatability
factor isn't a concern for FASA. Everysingle character will have to go
under some IMO major conversions to fit into SR3, ontop of that a very high
chance that unless you got a orginal copy of your pc you may as well start
from scratch as well as some major number cruching. Stick with the point
system it's fair and it works, a 100 points is a 100 points no matter how
you slice it. But on the plus side any conversion will be a quantum leap in
ability for the pc which seems to be a good thing for the most part.

>Yes, certain things could be improved. The track adventure system could
>use additional substance and be a bit more structured and less "here's an
>idea, now run with it."

Agreed

>And yes, it can be annoying to have to flip through several books to find
>one rule. But that is the price I am more than happy to pay for a game and
>a game world that is constantly expanding and improving.

Too true.


>First and foremost, FASA is trying. They have recently announced plans to
>revamp the entire site, which will include online purchasing of their
>products. The fact of the matter is, FASA makes their money publishing
>real books. The Internet is a loss-leader for them, as it is with the
>majority of businesses. And as such, the Internet tends to receive less of
>FASA's already scarce time and resources. But FASA is trying and we simply
>have to be patient with them. Joining the webring was a huge
>acknowledgement for them that not only are there a lot of SR sites out
>there, but that they want to be a part of that growth.

Big agreement here.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can
be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:42:07 EST
> products. The fact of the matter is, FASA makes their money publishing
> real books. The Internet is a loss-leader for them, as it is with the
> majority of businesses. And as such, the Internet tends to receive less of

As Adam said though, the Internet means customer service, which sure
as *hot-place* means money.

FASA has frequently been the target about slow response complaints.
Ergo, other companies are getting a better reputation that FASA about
that.

It wouldn't take too much effort to record Q&A's from phone calls and
letters and post them to the Web page. IF they are gathering errata
for revisions of a sourcebook, all they have to do is post them.
They be amazed at how much the volume of mail and calls decreases.
They'll also be amazed at how much happier the people are. If the
internet had been more popular a few years ago, and FASA had followed
this policy, I'm willing to bet that 2nd edition would NOT have had
the Grounding question unanswered.

I'm not looking for miracles. But if they could bring the SR site up
to par with even their own BattleTech or (better yet) Earthdawn
sites, I'd be REAL happy.

> FASA's already scarce time and resources. But FASA is trying and we simply
> have to be patient with them. Joining the webring was a huge
> acknowledgement for them that not only are there a lot of SR sites out
> there, but that they want to be a part of that growth.

Okay. Go FASA. Thanks for joining the ring.

> I know this will make me look like a FASA apologist to some, but I'm not.
> I like their games, I respect their company and their general policies and
> I'm willing to spend my money and time to show that. But I also know that

Oh, I do spend money and time. A lot of both.

> there are problems that need to be fixed. I just don't think that griping
> and whining about them on RN is terribly constructive, even if folks like
> Jon and Steve do suscribe to the list.

Ah, but it's SO satisfying to be able to gripe to someone who agrees.

> If you don't like how FASA handles their errata or their website or
> whatever, send an e-mail to FASAMike@***.com and probably also to
> FASAInfo@***.com. Don't bitch and whine like I've seen a few people here,

<rant>
I did that about a year ago. FASAMike said (when he replied FOUR
months later) that they hadn't collected any errata before he came,
but that he intended to change that as books came out. Obviously
Rigger 2 has proven THAT. The errata is all collected...and hidden.
</rant>

Okay, I feel better now.

-=SwiftOne=-
Whose not the least bit bitter about being turned down as a
playtester.
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:38:09 -0400
At 12:42 PM 7/2/98 EST, you wrote:
>> products. The fact of the matter is, FASA makes their money publishing
>> real books. The Internet is a loss-leader for them, as it is with the
>> majority of businesses. And as such, the Internet tends to receive less of
>
>As Adam said though, the Internet means customer service, which sure
>as *hot-place* means money.

But it doesn't translate directly into dollars. An Internet presence for
most companies is a marketing/public relations activity. In PR, we
sometimes run into execs that simply can't see the purpose of spending
money on something that doesn't translate into direct sales.

For 90% plus of all the corporate sites out there do not make money and in
fact are badly in the red. Companies do it because they feel they have to
or they hope that eventually it will turn a profit.

>It wouldn't take too much effort to record Q&A's from phone calls and
>letters and post them to the Web page.

But time is not something they have a lot of at FASA. As I've said before,
repeatedly, they work very long hours just producing sourcebooks. There is
very little time for the Internet.

They are working on it, and I have been in contact with their marketing
deparment (which handles their website) and they are doing their damndest.
It just takes time.

>-=SwiftOne=-
>Whose not the least bit bitter about being turned down as a
>playtester.

For SR3? From what I heard, that was by private invitation only and
concluded a few months ago. But if you applied and are in their database,
it's possible you may be selected for a future product.

Erik J.

URL to go here...
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:44:10 -0600
Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ At 12:42 PM 7/2/98 EST, you wrote:
/ >> products. The fact of the matter is, FASA makes their money publishing
/ >> real books. The Internet is a loss-leader for them, as it is with the
/ >> majority of businesses. And as such, the Internet tends to receive less of
/ >
/ >As Adam said though, the Internet means customer service, which sure
/ >as *hot-place* means money.
/
/ But it doesn't translate directly into dollars. An Internet presence for
/ most companies is a marketing/public relations activity. In PR, we
/ sometimes run into execs that simply can't see the purpose of spending
/ money on something that doesn't translate into direct sales.

Ah, I think I figured it out. FASA doesn't live on the net, it lives in
gaming stores, books stores, and at conventions. That's their target
market.

Despite the ammount of email we generate, we reperesent a *very* small
portion of FASA's customers.

Why should FASA invest in their web page? They don't sell their
products over the net (sure you can order them through their web page,
but I'm guessing the percentage of internet orders compared with their
sales from game stores is extremely low).

The majority of players find out about FASA products by word of mouth, or
by seeing it sitting on the shelf in the store, or by trying out a game at
a convention. How many people find out about FASA on the web?

And, how many of FASA's players check out their web site? I'm guessing
it's a low number.

Combine FASA's marketing priorities with Mike's lack of interest in the
internet and viola.

Sorry Gurth. Welcome to the world of the minority :-\

About the only way you can sway FASA is to be so vocal that you appear
to be the majority. Of course this can be tricky, cuz if you don't do
it right you can piss them off they'll start refering to us as "those
yahoos on the web". And we wouldn't want anyone to know the truth ;)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:00:03 EST
> >As Adam said though, the Internet means customer service, which sure
> >as *hot-place* means money.
>
> But it doesn't translate directly into dollars. An Internet presence for
> most companies is a marketing/public relations activity. In PR, we
> sometimes run into execs that simply can't see the purpose of spending
> money on something that doesn't translate into direct sales.

FASA is small enough that they should be able to appreciate customer
service and reputation.

> For 90% plus of all the corporate sites out there do not make money and in
> fact are badly in the red. Companies do it because they feel they have to
> or they hope that eventually it will turn a profit.

Hmm...corporate Web Package. Space & email addresses: $50/mo.
InterNIC: $75/yr. HTML Editor (so they don't have to hire anyone
with "special" talents): $30/year (assuming upgrades). Total per
year: $675. (And that covers ALL of FASA)

Money-wise it doesn't look so bad. How about Time? Assuming FASA
already deals with questions and errata, all they have to do is
record it and post it. (posting could be done in 30 mins once a
week).

Anyway, I'm missing my point, which is that the other FASA divisions
have done it. BattleTech and Earthdawn both have acceptable sites
with regards to errata and FAQ's (more would be better, but what is
there satisfies me). Why not SR?

> But time is not something they have a lot of at FASA. As I've said before,
> repeatedly, they work very long hours just producing sourcebooks. There is
> very little time for the Internet.

Yes, yes yes. But if they're making revisions, they have errata. If
they're answering questions, they have FAQ's.

> For SR3? From what I heard, that was by private invitation only and
> concluded a few months ago. But if you applied and are in their database,
> it's possible you may be selected for a future product.

I wrote to FASAMike about playtesting back when Rigger 2 came out.
He told me to ask again in February. I did so. I didn't make it. I
think he was still miffed about the pseudo-adept thing. :( Oh well,
maybe someday...

(He also didn't put me in Smuggler's Haven :))
Message no. 7
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:13:35 -0400
Once upon a time, Brett Borger wrote;

>I wrote to FASAMike about playtesting back when Rigger 2 came out.
>He told me to ask again in February. I did so. I didn't make it. I
>think he was still miffed about the pseudo-adept thing. :( Oh well,
>maybe someday...
>
>(He also didn't put me in Smuggler's Haven :))

I'm convinced I won't appear in a quote until I write a book myself. =
B>[#

<pout, whine>
"Bull gets to do everything"
</pout, whine>


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><=
><>

"THAT¹S NOT FAIR!"
"You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for comparison is."
-Sarah and Jareth, Labyrinth

I am MC23
Message no. 8
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:51:44 -0400
At 12:44 PM 7/2/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Erik Jameson wrote:

>/ But it doesn't translate directly into dollars. An Internet presence for
>/ most companies is a marketing/public relations activity. In PR, we
>/ sometimes run into execs that simply can't see the purpose of spending
>/ money on something that doesn't translate into direct sales.
>
>Ah, I think I figured it out. FASA doesn't live on the net, it lives in
>gaming stores, books stores, and at conventions. That's their target
>market.

Exactly. Where does nearly everyone "live?" Not on the Net. With few
exceptions, the vast majority of consumers spend the vast amount of their
money on places other than the Internet. A corporate web site is a)keeping
up with the Joneses, b)even a bad site is okay PR and c)all the analysts
predict big money on the Internet, so the companies figure they better get
*some* kind of presence there now.

>Despite the ammount of email we generate, we reperesent a *very* small
>portion of FASA's customers.

Relatively small, yes. Though geeks and gamers do tend to at least have
e-mail.

>Why should FASA invest in their web page? They don't sell their
>products over the net (sure you can order them through their web page,
>but I'm guessing the percentage of internet orders compared with their
>sales from game stores is extremely low).

Pretty much true, though I think one of FASA's moves is to try and make
online ordering of their products available. They will have to do
something, like offer discounts or early release, for people to buy online.

>Combine FASA's marketing priorities with Mike's lack of interest in the
>internet and viola.

I increasingly get the impression the Mike is a rather harried individual.
Perhaps he needs better organizational skills, maybe he really does have
huge piles of work to do. Don't know.

>About the only way you can sway FASA is to be so vocal that you appear
>to be the majority. Of course this can be tricky, cuz if you don't do
>it right you can piss them off they'll start refering to us as "those
>yahoos on the web". And we wouldn't want anyone to know the truth ;)

You've also got to be vocal to the right people.

If it's something about the website, I would suggest dropping a line to
FASAmktg@***.com, since they are the ones that manage the web site.
Sending e-mail on the site to Mike probably doesn't get much done.

It took me a while, but I eventually found the right person at FASA to
assist me in some matters and he's turned out to be very helpful.

Gotta target your message to the right person. Randall (FASAinfo@***.com)
can be very helpful in this regard; plus he seems to be a heck of a nice guy.

Erik J.

URL to go here...
Message no. 9
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:52:02 -0400
At 03:00 PM 7/2/98 EST, you wrote:

>> But it doesn't translate directly into dollars. An Internet presence for
>> most companies is a marketing/public relations activity. In PR, we
>> sometimes run into execs that simply can't see the purpose of spending
>> money on something that doesn't translate into direct sales.
>
>FASA is small enough that they should be able to appreciate customer
>service and reputation.

But PR and Marketing and the Internet costs money, something generally in
short supply with small companies. I've dealt with a number of clients
that, if they were willing to spend the bucks, we could do great things
with them for PR. But being small, they simply don't have the budget.
Small companies usually feel that their tight budget is better served on
something that translates directly into sales and therefor profit. Which
means the stuff like PR and the Internet get the short end of the stick.

FASA's Reputation: If a product is due in July, it'll be in stores the
last day of July. They also are rather slow to comment to questions,
except from Randall on their AOL board. Personally, I think many people
are spoiled by the immediacy of e-mail and expect answers and quickly. In
an ideal world, that would be the case, but nothing's ideal, is it?

BUT they also have a very solid reputation for putting out consistently
quality products for all their lines. And to be honest, as long as their
products are as good as they normally are (even with all the gripes we all
end up with), I'll be happy.

>> For 90% plus of all the corporate sites out there do not make money and in
>> fact are badly in the red. Companies do it because they feel they have to
>> or they hope that eventually it will turn a profit.
>
>Hmm...corporate Web Package. Space & email addresses: $50/mo.
>InterNIC: $75/yr. HTML Editor (so they don't have to hire anyone
>with "special" talents): $30/year (assuming upgrades). Total per
>year: $675. (And that covers ALL of FASA)

Okay, that's your mechanics (sort of; large companies will spend easily six
figures on their web site per year, but that's folks like MS, GM and
whatnot; Internet *ad* budgets can easily reach millions of dollars now).
And I'm sure they've spent that money on those things long ago.

What is extremely costly is generating content. Simply announcing products
isn't too hard, nor is posting press releases and the like. But generating
real content takes a lot of time, which costs money and time that could be
spent on real product (which again, is where their bread is buttered).

That's why I proposed reusing existing content to them for their web site.
It's cheap, easy, quick and improves their reputation. All the things a
business wants to hear.

>Money-wise it doesn't look so bad. How about Time? Assuming FASA
>already deals with questions and errata, all they have to do is
>record it and post it. (posting could be done in 30 mins once a
>week).

Posting those errate might take only 30 minutes, but gathering those
questions and answers (some of those answers could take significant amounts
of time) takes a great deal more, in writing and organizing them.

How are most errors found in gaming products? Bad mechanics and the like?
By the players. FASA doesn't have the time to triple-check *everything*
that goes out the door; they could but their costs would go up. They do
their best and hope that's enough; sometimes it's not.

When a typo is found, no big deal, that's easy to fix. But a broken
mechanic means devising a new mechanic and playtesting it, all of which
take very valuable time.

>> But time is not something they have a lot of at FASA. As I've said before,
>> repeatedly, they work very long hours just producing sourcebooks. There is
>> very little time for the Internet.
>
>Yes, yes yes. But if they're making revisions, they have errata. If
>they're answering questions, they have FAQ's.

The revisions are going into SR3 and beyond. And they don't always have an
answer right at hand for every question. I asked about troll horns (from
our earlier discussion here on RN) and haven't heard back; it's a subject
that probably caught them off-guard and now they have to make a decision.
Again, time...

>I wrote to FASAMike about playtesting back when Rigger 2 came out.
>He told me to ask again in February. I did so. I didn't make it. I
>think he was still miffed about the pseudo-adept thing. :( Oh well,
>maybe someday...

Pseudo-adept thing?

I'm sure a fair number of people got turned down for playtesting SR3. I've
been rejected for any number of SR products and I put my name in years ago.

As for not being included in Smuggler's Havens, well, as far as I know,
that's strictly the author's choice. Steve K. includes folks like Bull or
DVixen as sort of a wink and a nod to this list and to other people that he
knows. Mike has little if anything to do with it.

Erik J.

URL to go here...
Message no. 10
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:26:45 EST
> FASA's Reputation: If a product is due in July, it'll be in stores the
> last day of July. They also are rather slow to comment to questions,

Rigger 2. That's all I'll say :)

> except from Randall on their AOL board. Personally, I think many people
> are spoiled by the immediacy of e-mail and expect answers and quickly. In
> an ideal world, that would be the case, but nothing's ideal, is it?

Compare FASA to other companies, and FASA loses when it comes to
speed of response, etc. White wolf has a turn around of about a
week. FASA has a turn around of 1-6 months. But that's just one
aspect. Availability of FAQ's and Errata is my major beef. See
conclusion.

> BUT they also have a very solid reputation for putting out consistently
> quality products for all their lines. And to be honest, as long as their
> products are as good as they normally are (even with all the gripes we all
> end up with), I'll be happy.

Yup. FASA's still my favorite company. I am quite satisfied with
their products, just not the support for them.

> What is extremely costly is generating content. Simply announcing products
> isn't too hard, nor is posting press releases and the like. But generating
> real content takes a lot of time, which costs money and time that could be
> spent on real product (which again, is where their bread is buttered).
...
> That's why I proposed reusing existing content to them for their web site.
> It's cheap, easy, quick and improves their reputation. All the things a
> business wants to hear.

And that's pretty much what I'm looking for. they put together
errata sheets for SR2 and Grimmy...I don't see those up there. I've
never seen the "official" version of Fields of Fire errata.
Shadowland had an "official" Cybertech errata, which didn't end up on
the web page. Frag, they could cut and paste a copy of email replies
they send and give us SOME Q&A.

> Posting those errate might take only 30 minutes, but gathering those
> questions and answers (some of those answers could take significant amounts
> of time) takes a great deal more, in writing and organizing them.

I'm saying that they are ALREADY gathering those things. How many
sourcebooks have had revised printings? SRComp, Rigger 2 and
Cyberpirates I know of just recently. How many of those revisions
were posted?

> When a typo is found, no big deal, that's easy to fix. But a broken
> mechanic means devising a new mechanic and playtesting it, all of which
> take very valuable time.

So acknowledge the problem. How much traffic would the list lose if
FASA posted a "We know there is a problem with the concept of
Grounding through a Quickening. We recommend that the issue be
resolved between each GM and players. We will not be making an
official ruling on this issue at this time."

> The revisions are going into SR3 and beyond. And they don't always have an

..and the reprints of the sourcebooks.

> answer right at hand for every question. I asked about troll horns (from

But they do answer some questions. How many of those answers are
on the web page?

Conclusion:

I'm not looking for phenomenal content. I'm not paying for it, so I
don't expect to find SR3 posted to the web site. But if FASA would
even bring the _SR_ section of the website up to the standards of the
Earthdawn, BattleTech, and even SRTCG sections, I'd be happier. If
staff sending an email would bother to cut and paste it into page,
they might find they spent less time repeating themselves.

I could really care less about ordering from them online. The
Shadowland attempt they had up for the election was cute, but not
needed. But they can, for every little money, and very little time
that they aren't already spending, make me a happier SR gamer.

Slightly off-topic-ness:

> >I wrote to FASAMike about playtesting back when Rigger 2 came out.
> >He told me to ask again in February. I did so. I didn't make it. I
> >think he was still miffed about the pseudo-adept thing. :( Oh well,
> >maybe someday...
>
> Pseudo-adept thing?

I asked him to reconsider his ruling on the sub-adepts in SrComp. I
find Steve's rules to make much more sense, and fit in the world
better. I explained my reasons in what I thought was a logical
manner. He never replied, and a few days later Steve asked all of us
to drop the subject.

> I'm sure a fair number of people got turned down for playtesting SR3. I've
> been rejected for any number of SR products and I put my name in years ago.

Oh, I was just a bit disappointed. It's not really anything big. I
was just trying to insert some humor into a message that was (I'll
admit it) basically a ranting complaint about a company I otherwise
consider among the best.

> As for not being included in Smuggler's Havens, well, as far as I know,
> that's strictly the author's choice. Steve K. includes folks like Bull or
> DVixen as sort of a wink and a nod to this list and to other people that he
> knows. Mike has little if anything to do with it.

Here that Steve buddy? When does MIST come out? :)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:12:08 +0100
David Buehrer said on 12:44/2 Jul 98,...

> Sorry Gurth. Welcome to the world of the minority :-\

What do you mean "welcome"? I've been a minority of one group
or another (and often more than one) for most of my life...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 03:27:56 -0400
At 04:13 PM 7/2/98 -0400, MC23 wrote these timeless words:
>Once upon a time, Brett Borger wrote;
>
>>I wrote to FASAMike about playtesting back when Rigger 2 came out.
>>He told me to ask again in February. I did so. I didn't make it. I
>>think he was still miffed about the pseudo-adept thing. :( Oh well,
>>maybe someday...
>>
>>(He also didn't put me in Smuggler's Haven :))
>
>I'm convinced I won't appear in a quote until I write a book myself. B>[#
>
><pout, whine>
>"Bull gets to do everything"
></pout, whine>
>
Oh, do stop whining :] Otherwise I may just be forced to reveal your real
name :]

<g>

Seriously, I'm really not sure how I got into the second book, other than
that Steve Kenson is really cool and was desperate for names for his
Shadowtalk :]

Bull -- who does everything and knows everything <umm, yeah, right... >
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 13
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:05:46 -0400
Once upon a time, Bull wrote;

>At 04:13 PM 7/2/98 -0400, MC23 wrote these timeless words:
>><pout, whine>
>>"Bull gets to do everything"
>></pout, whine>
>>
>Oh, do stop whining :] Otherwise I may just be forced to reveal your real
>name :]
>
>Bull -- who does everything and knows everything <umm, yeah, right... >

You're bluffing! B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 14
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:42:36 -0400
At 10:05 AM 7/6/98 -0400, MC23 wrote these timeless words:
>Once upon a time, Bull wrote;
>
>>At 04:13 PM 7/2/98 -0400, MC23 wrote these timeless words:
>>><pout, whine>
>>>"Bull gets to do everything"
>>></pout, whine>
>>>
>>Oh, do stop whining :] Otherwise I may just be forced to reveal your real
>>name :]
>>
>>Bull -- who does everything and knows everything <umm, yeah, right... >
>
> You're bluffing! B>]#
>
Maybe... But then again, your name is on the list of Playtesters in SR3...
And since I know most of them, its a very simple process of elimination
<grin>

But... WOuld I do that? <innocent look>

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 15
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Damn Shadowrun whiners
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:41:02 EDT
In a message dated 7/6/98 1:38:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time, chaos@*****.COM
writes:

> > You're bluffing! B>]#
> >
> Maybe... But then again, your name is on the list of Playtesters in SR3...
> And since I know most of them, its a very simple process of elimination
> <grin>
>
> But... WOuld I do that? <innocent look>
>
I wondered if anyone else would figure this part out too. Remember my remarks
about "I'm being patient on getting revenge..."??? Well, time is a cycle, you
just have to know how to coast on the pedals.

-K (unless of course MC23 would have fibbed on the names list)

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Thwap!