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Message no. 1
From: xanth@****.uky.edu (Terry Amburgey)
Subject: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:55:09 -0500 (EST)
>>Now this does raise one interesting question: Can the aural template
>>be changed to accomodate Cyber and Bio? Will children born to parents
>>with cyber and bio have modifications to their aual templates that
>>would allow certain mods without loosing essence? Darwin springs to
>>mind...
>
>*THUD*
>
>*ROLL*
>
>*SPILL*
>
>
>Somebody opened a BIG can of worms.
>
>Thanks Shadowdancer.
>
Not as big as you think. First, Darwinian models don't allow for the
heritability of 'acquired' characteristics, that's Lamarck. The acquisition
of bio/cyberware is a phenotypic change [to use the term loosely] not a
genotypic change. If the subject's DNA was altered in a way that carries
over into the production of sperm or ova, it still may not be heritable;
Just because Bobby Bioware has the genotype to produce a suprathyroid [which
isn't the case the way I read it] what happens when 1/2 of his genetic
material gets recombined with material from Sally Spouse? Terry

Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 2
From: Super Grover <taleask@***.ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 21:48:41 -0700 (MST)
On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Terry Amburgey wrote:

>
> >>Now this does raise one interesting question: Can the aural template
> >>be changed to accomodate Cyber and Bio? Will children born to parents
> >>with cyber and bio have modifications to their aual templates that
> >>would allow certain mods without loosing essence? Darwin springs to
> >>mind...

I had a friend, a fellow climber, that had the idea that if he really
pumped his forearms up, that his kids would have big forearms, and if
they did the same... I had to burst his bubble that according
to evolution as it is currently understood, this just won't happen, as
Terry posted below, to pass a trait on the change has to be in germ cells
(sperm and ova). Of course, there are environmental factors which can
select against a certain geno/pheno type, however, having bioware will
not be one of them (it's not a genotype or phenotype).

> Not as big as you think. First, Darwinian models don't allow for the
> heritability of 'acquired' characteristics, that's Lamarck. The acquisition
> of bio/cyberware is a phenotypic change [to use the term loosely] not a
> genotypic change. If the subject's DNA was altered in a way that carries
> over into the production of sperm or ova, it still may not be heritable;
> Just because Bobby Bioware has the genotype to produce a suprathyroid [which
> isn't the case the way I read it] what happens when 1/2 of his genetic
> material gets recombined with material from Sally Spouse? Terry


Well, a complete answer would take perhaps several texts. However, some
salient questions would have to be asnwered before the effect determined.
Things such as hereitibility (ie is the gene(s) expressed exclusively
maternally or paternally?) and if no hereitability is abserved, then the
problem becomes one of absolute gigantic proportions. I mean for most bioware
involving new organs, or even modified organs, a whole lot of genes would
have to be involved, and each has its own specific regulation. If it
could be incorporated into the germ cells, this regualtion would have to
fit with preexisting developmental patterns (not an easy task).

Just some thoughts.

Super Grover

FAR!
patter,patter,patter,patter
NEAR!
Message no. 3
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.tdb.uu.se>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:46:37 +0100 (MET)
On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Terry Amburgey wrote:

> >>Now this does raise one interesting question: Can the aural template
> >>be changed to accomodate Cyber and Bio? Will children born to parents
> >>with cyber and bio have modifications to their aual templates that
> >>would allow certain mods without loosing essence? Darwin springs to
> >>mind...
> >
> >Somebody opened a BIG can of worms.
>
> Not as big as you think. First, Darwinian models don't allow for the
> heritability of 'acquired' characteristics, that's Lamarck. The acquisition
> of bio/cyberware is a phenotypic change [to use the term loosely] not a
> genotypic change. If the subject's DNA was altered in a way that carries
> over into the production of sperm or ova, it still may not be heritable;
> Just because Bobby Bioware has the genotype to produce a suprathyroid [which
> isn't the case the way I read it] what happens when 1/2 of his genetic
> material gets recombined with material from Sally Spouse? Terry

Of course, the DNA that codes for the special properties of the
Suprathyroid Gland exist *only* in the suprathyroid gland, probably in
areas of the human genome that aren't needed at that place (like eye
colour, or liver-specific metabolic proteins, etc.), and nowhere else in
the body. The only chance that the special "suprathyroid gene" would exist
somewhere else in the body is 1) the suprathyriod gets cancerous and a
metastase is formed; 2) a strange recombinant retrovirus muxes up and
shifts the gene to the next infected cell; 3) [and the most likely, by
far] the runner decides to implant a second suprathyroid. (Please don't
comment this, I'm just making stupid examples.) So, no genes from the
suprathyroid will ever show up in the child of a carrier of a suprathyroid
gland. And if they did, by strange coincidence, the offspring would look
like the harvest-clones bioware companies grow - i.e. disgustingly
distorted and underdeveloped, but with a gigantic (supra)thyroid.

Now that I've said my share on the subject of DNA transfer from
bioware-carryng parent to child, I'll comment the first entry (the
canopener, as it were). I think it's a *really cool* idea! I've long
entertained the thought of running a Shadowrun/CyberGeneration crossover,
and this isn't far off the mark. To defend from hostility, I'll just point
out that Shadowrun (IMHO, anyways) is already leaning in that direction,
what with the Otaku and the Deep Resonance and everything. Wouldn't be too
hard to throw in nanotech magic/cyber amalgams, given a decade or so...

It's a strang idea, but hey!, I'm a strange guy! (I mean, I'm
already running Shadowrun/WoD crossovers, so why not CG? Hell, let's take
all three! Maybe add a bit of CoC and Nephilim just for flavour...)

On an entirely diferent note, whAt does Otaku mean anyway? I heard
it was japanese, but for what?

-Jonas Gabrielson, psi-mutant of the worst sort
Message no. 4
From: MikeE@******.dragonsys.com
Subject: Darwin and Lamarck -Reply
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:42:17 -0500
While I can't agree more that there is no
scientific way for aquired traits to be passed on,
it certainly is an interesting idea for astral space
and auras etc. to have a slightly different set of
rules... One would first have to deceide for
oneself the very philosophically sticky question
"Where does a childs soul/aura come from?". Is
it created in part from a mix of it's parents?
Does it start out as a copy of it's mothers? Or
do parents simply create the receptical and the
soul/aura comes from a third source (God, the
collective unconscious, reincarnation,
whatever)?
If and only if a child's aura is based on it's
parents in some way would this "aural heredity"
be possible.
My, what wiggly worms.... :)

Double-Domed Mike

P.S. Remember to think both hermetically and
shamanistically about these issues. Neither
tradition has all the pieces of the puzzle.
Message no. 5
From: xanth@****.uky.edu (Terry Amburgey)
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck -Reply
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:29:40 -0500 (EST)
Double-Domed Mike wrote:
[snip}
>P.S. Remember to think both hermetically and
>shamanistically about these issues. Neither
>tradition has all the pieces of the puzzle.

I must admit that I'm hermetic to the core :) I've never played a shaman and
I'm not sure I could pull it off. Hey, wait a minute! I'm a munchkin I don't
need to worry about roleplaying! [runs off to start min/maxing a new shaman
pc]. Terry

Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 6
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:13:44 -0800 (PST)
The Lamarckian theory isn't *quite* quits yet.

Research conducted two years ago on African hyenas have demonstrated that
"heritable" traits can be passed on in ways other than DNA in germ cells,
to wit: hormones in the mothers' milk.

More specifically, it was shown that a mother hyena passed some of her
traits to her newborn cubs via hormones in her milk. This process is still
being studied.

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 7
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:14:30 -0500 (EST)
Adam wrote:
>The Lamarckian theory isn't *quite* quits yet.
>
>Research conducted two years ago on African hyenas have demonstrated that
>"heritable" traits can be passed on in ways other than DNA in germ cells,
>to wit: hormones in the mothers' milk.
>
>More specifically, it was shown that a mother hyena passed some of her
>traits to her newborn cubs via hormones in her milk. This process is still
>being studied.
>
Interesting. The true test will come when they see whether the mother's
female cubs pass on the 'heritable traits' to grandcubs and whether or not
the mother's male cubs find a way to pass on the traits - this looks ok on
the 'variation' and 'selection' components but weak on the 'retention'
component. I have to admit, most of my reading in evolutionary biology for
the last several years has been of the 'selfish gene' variety and weak on
the empirical side. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey
Associate Professor of Management
College of Business and Economics
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Phone: 606-257-7726
Fax: 606-257-3577
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 17:42:53 +1030
>The only chance that the special "suprathyroid gene" would exist
>somewhere else in the body is 1) the suprathyriod gets cancerous and a
>metastase is formed

Cool... you could sue the designers. :)


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 17:42:37 +1030
>More specifically, it was shown that a mother hyena passed some of her
>traits to her newborn cubs via hormones in her milk. This process is still
>being studied.

This is a known fact. It's part of the environmental development of the
child. Another example is that, in the case of severe malnutrition in a
girl, it can take two generations for the damage to be negated. (Shows up
all the time in Third World countries).


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 10
From: Piers Meynell <SAC5PM@*******.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:06:33 GMT
Hello!

> The Lamarckian theory isn't *quite* quits yet.

Hehe! I assure you it's going to be around for a little more :)

> Research conducted two years ago on African hyenas have demonstrated that
> "heritable" traits can be passed on in ways other than DNA in germ cells,
> to wit: hormones in the mothers' milk.

<grin>For the non biology buffs, others include, via the mitochondria of your cells,
which
serve the role as 'biological powerstations', which have there own
circular DNA. And since generally the male sperm only provides
genetic information, all this mitocondrial DNA can be traced through
the female line, which is where the concept of mitocondrial 'Eve'
comes from i.e. that all the mitochondrial DNA can be possibly
traced back to a small group of females.

> >More specifically, it was shown that a mother hyena passed some of her
> >traits to her newborn cubs via hormones in her milk. This process is still
> >being studied.
>
> This is a known fact. It's part of the environmental development of the
> child. Another example is that, in the case of severe malnutrition in a
> girl, it can take two generations for the damage to be negated. (Shows up
> all the time in Third World countries).

If your interested in studying this in more detail, its called
'epigentic inheritance', and I can provide some interesting
references to papers and a good book on the subject, If you
wish. Sorry epigentic inheritance and evolutionary theory in general
is a pet subject of mine :)

<Piers blows a raspberry to all the rabid neo-darwinsist
thwpthththwp!!> :)

Piers "Idiot, inconsequence and general arsehole. 3000 years plus, of
evolution has produced me! Isn't it time we revised the theories
then?" Meynell
Message no. 11
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:25:32 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>More specifically, it was shown that a mother hyena passed some of her
|>traits to her newborn cubs via hormones in her milk. This process is still
|>being studied.
|
|This is a known fact. It's part of the environmental development of the
|child. Another example is that, in the case of severe malnutrition in a
|girl, it can take two generations for the damage to be negated. (Shows up
|all the time in Third World countries).

I've just had a nasty thought.
I was bottle fed, as were a lot of other people my age and older....

Does this mean that our grandkids are going to be well and truely fragged
over because *we* didn't drink human milk?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 21:38:33 +1030
>I've just had a nasty thought.
>I was bottle fed, as were a lot of other people my age and older....
>
>Does this mean that our grandkids are going to be well and truely fragged
>over because *we* didn't drink human milk?

Not likely, unless you count a mammary gland obsession... :)
The malnutrition problem is caused because the girl's reproductive organs
and mammary glands get damaged, causing the child (who is usually
breast-fed) to suffer a milder form of malnutrition at a critical stage.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 13
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:14:47 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>I've just had a nasty thought.
|>I was bottle fed, as were a lot of other people my age and older....
|>
|>Does this mean that our grandkids are going to be well and truely fragged
|>over because *we* didn't drink human milk?
|
|Not likely, unless you count a mammary gland obsession... :)
|The malnutrition problem is caused because the girl's reproductive organs
|and mammary glands get damaged, causing the child (who is usually
|breast-fed) to suffer a milder form of malnutrition at a critical stage.

But then again, I did see a program that said things along the lines of cows
mild having the wrong protiens, which could cause problems in later life
(such as a bigger chance of having allergies and somesuch).
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: xanth@****.uky.edu (Terry Amburgey)
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:25:17 -0500 (EST)
Piers wrote:
> If your interested in studying this in more detail, its called
>'epigentic inheritance', and I can provide some interesting
>references to papers and a good book on the subject, If you
>wish. Sorry epigentic inheritance and evolutionary theory in general
>is a pet subject of mine :)

I would greatly appreciate references via private email. Thanks. Terry

Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 15
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:59:42 -0800
> But then again, I did see a program that said things along the lines
> of cows mild having the wrong protiens, which could cause problems in
> later life (such as a bigger chance of having allergies and somesuch).

That is a definite. My youngest sister has as significant number of
allergies & enzyme deficiencies as a result of excessive cow's milk
consumption as the only source of meat protein intake. She has been
until '93 an adamant (sp?) vegitarian from birth. Now she's paying the
price with rapid bone & muscle deterioration, the inability to digest
meat products (including cow's milk), and allergies to nearly every form
of plastic made.
Message no. 16
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:40:46 GMT
>>Somebody opened a BIG can of worms.
>>
>>Thanks Shadowdancer.
>>
First off, your welcome :}

>Not as big as you think. First, Darwinian models don't allow for the
>heritability of 'acquired' characteristics, that's Lamarck.
Unfortunatly, I am unfamilier with Lamarck. Could you possibly
elaborate?

>The acquisition
>of bio/cyberware is a phenotypic change [to use the term loosely] not a
>genotypic change.
Technically true, but then again we are dealing with the SR concept of
"aural templates". While the templates usually only coresspond with a
particular individual, there are plenty of hints that the templates
also somehow connect with the "universal unconscience". Whether this
is true or not remains to be seen, but if many individuals are getting
cyber, then would this not change the unconscience, and thus the aural
template for a given individual?

>If the subject's DNA was altered in a way that carries
>over into the production of sperm or ova, it still may not be heritable;
>Just because Bobby Bioware has the genotype to produce a suprathyroid [which
>isn't the case the way I read it] what happens when 1/2 of his genetic
>material gets recombined with material from Sally Spouse? Terry
Maybe a corp sponsored selective breeding arrangement? Sort of
maniplulating DNA in sperm/ova donations then combining to help
evolution along. It might not be feasible, but could be interesting
for spreading shadowrumors and plenty-o-work.

By-the-by, when I mentioned Darwin in the earlier converse, I did not
expect it to happen immediatly. But sense cyber and bio is here to
stay, barring another Scourge, it might happen in a few thousand
years. True this does not affect the here and now, but it is fun to
speculate. :)



----------------------------------------
Forgive me Father, for I am Sin.
(Laura Harris)

-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Http://www.kensco.net/~shadow/
Message no. 17
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Darwin and Lamarck
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 96 00:39:36 +1030
>>Not as big as you think. First, Darwinian models don't allow for the
>>heritability of 'acquired' characteristics, that's Lamarck.
>Unfortunatly, I am unfamilier with Lamarck. Could you possibly
>elaborate?

Lamarck evolutionary theory was one of the earlier attempts to derive a
theory underpinning the relationships between living beings. It proposed,
like Darwin's model (which was a later development, if I remember
rightly), that a being's characteristics were based in part on the
parents. Hence, a giraffe always has giraffe kids. It proposed that,
should a being change in it's nature, these changes would be partly
reflected in the offspring. Hence, if you worked out a lot, your kids
would be sligtly stronger than other kids.

Darwin's model decided something else. It said that, through a filtering
process, species differentiated themselves. If something helped strong
people survive, eventually everyone subject to that particular filter
would be strong, as they outbred everyone else.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)

Further Reading

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