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Message no. 1
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:29:13 +0300
Do you think characters should die?

Often?

Permanently?

Character death is really a very delicate issue and IMHO should be
approached as such.

To start up the 'heat', here's an example:

A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
For which of the above reasons would you kill him?

For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you
fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?

the wiz
Message no. 2
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:26:55 -0400
Manolis Skoulikas wrote:

> Do you think characters should die?

Yes. At the beginning of a campaign, I usually pit the PCs against a
challenge very great, usually resulting in the death of one of them, to
give the players a sense of the lethality.

> Often?

No. It's hard to keep going and moving through a campaign when you're
constantly re-introducing characters. Plus the players don't like it if
you're always killing off their characters. I've actually killed more PCs
because the players wanted to play something different (ie. my character
was an experiment and he really doesn't work for me, I want to play THIS
one instead, just kill him off) than killing them out of my own evilness.

> Permanently?

Yup. If a PC dies, he is d e d DEAD.

> Character death is really a very delicate issue and IMHO should be
> approached as such.
>
> To start up the 'heat', here's an example:
>
> A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
> he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
> For which of the above reasons would you kill him?

I'd kill him for the careless, foolhardy, and believes he is invincible
reason. But only because he gets himself in situations where that happens,
not because he believes such.

> For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you

> fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?

Yes. I do it all the time. I want it to be a challenge, not an
impossibility. I've actually staged down all the damage once and decided
to kill the NPC instead.

>
> the wiz

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+
(o++ d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 3
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:45:07 GMT
>Do you think characters should die?
>the wiz

Ideally characters should not die until they get a chance to do so
gloryously. I kill characters under two circumstances; firstly when the
character simply does not work; the example I give is when two characters
started argueing constantly and one of them ended up hospitalised (this is
in SR not reality) the situation could not continue so I killed on of them
of for the sake of a quiet life. The second instance is to scare characters
into realising their own mortality; something that can really take the fun
out of a game (for me at least) is where every adventure is like an episode
of a T.V. series; you always end up exactly where you started and everything
works itself out over the corse of the episode. Having said all that I hate
to kill characters off no matter what.

Phil
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Message no. 4
From: Archimage4@***.com Archimage4@***.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:51:55 EDT
In a message dated 4/30/00 2:28:26 PM, great_worm@*****.com writes:

>Do you think characters should die?

Of course! Without the possibility of death, the players begin to believe
that nothing can kill them. After this, the game can quickly become
unrealistic.

>Often?

Not usually. It's an annoyance to constantly introduce characters. But, if
a PC continually lets his characters do suicidally stupid things, I usually
won't save him.

>Permanently?

This isn't D&D, where your next-door neighbor could raise you from the dead.
Death is to be feared, because it is the end. The PERMANENT end.

>Character death is really a very delicate issue and IMHO should be
>approached as such.
>
>To start up the 'heat', here's an example:
>
>A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
>he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
>For which of the above reasons would you kill him?

If the character is foolhardy, careless, and thinks he's invincible, he will
sooner or later (usually sooner) put himself in a situation that guarantees
his instant death. In which case, he's killing himself: the GM is merely an
innocent bystander.

>For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you
>fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?

That depends on your definition of "doesn't deserve it". If you mean that
the character/player has no reason to die other than that he got shot at, I
will usually save him. If, however, you mean that the character did
something careless, stupid, and/or suicidal, I'll let him die.

>the wiz

-- The Archimage
Message no. 5
From: Matt Wilshin m.wilshin@**********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:11:11 +0100
Archimage4@***.com wrote:

> >Do you think characters should die?
>
> Of course! Without the possibility of death, the players begin to believe
> that nothing can kill them. After this, the game can quickly become
> unrealistic.
>

How about serious injury? Do you often have sessions where the PCs end up
with Serious+ wound levels?

>
> >Permanently?
>
> This isn't D&D, where your next-door neighbor could raise you from the
dead.
> Death is to be feared, because it is the end. The PERMANENT end.
>

True. I often give PCs deadly wounds, but let them have dramatic last moment
recoveries.

Just my 2Y.


Matt Wilshin
http://members.xoom.com/wilshin
Message no. 6
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:26:06 -0400
Wiz posed:
> Do you think characters should die?

Yes.

> Often?

Rarely.

> Permanently?

Typically, but no promises if it suits my designs.

> Character death is really a very delicate issue and IMHO should be
> approached as such.

Warn them before the game starts that the "safety is off". This should be
something that they should know up front.

> A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
> he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
> For which of the above reasons would you kill him?

A serious or deadly wound stops most of my players, but then they aren't
munchkins. To me resolving munchkin problems can be messy at the table. I
tend to go for the "fly right" or be removed from the table pre-game
conversations. Then back it up or people won't believe you the next time.

> For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you
> fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?

Without a doubt. In fact, since most GM's roll incredibly well (some
universal luck issue) I find my self adjusting the rolls in the favor of the
players quite a bit. I wish I could learn how to transfer this gift to the
other side of the screen. I do balance this with the concept of "getting
stupid or greedy will get you killed".

Smilin' Jack

Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 7
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:45:01 -0700
Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
>
> Do you think characters should die?

Yes.

> Often?

Only as often as stupidity, gloryhounding or heroism requires.

> Permanently?

There's no other way. I've come to harbor a deep loathing of
resurrections - at least without a cost.

> Character death is really a very delicate issue and IMHO should be
> approached as such.

Well, certainly, but if handled well can be a very powerful issue.

> To start up the 'heat', here's an example:
>
> A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
> he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
> For which of the above reasons would you kill him?

Well, ignoring the "munchkiny" comment (I avoid categorizing gamers like
that). If a player is that ill-mannered, I'd talk it over with him.

> For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you
> fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?

I'm usually much more forgiving of death-by-happenstance and bad luck as
opposed to death-by-stupidity, death-by-personal-sacrifice and
death-by-player-request.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:01:00 -0500
From: Manolis Skoulikas
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 1:29 PM

> Do you think characters should die?

Yes. Everybody dies eventually, and characters in stories should be no
different.

> Often?

Generally, once is enough, but it depends on the character.

Should it be a frequent occurence? No, else it loses its potency as a
story-telling force.

> Permanently?

Depends on the situation. In general, yes, I think if a character dies, he
should stay dead (too many resurrections in the X-MEN kind of left me cold
on that sort of thing), though if it serves the story and I can come up with
a reasonable explanation, I've been known in the past to bring a character
back from the grave.

> Character death is really a very delicate issue and IMHO should be
> approached as such.

I don't know how delicately it actually needs to be approached. Death
itself is frequently quite brutal and sudden (I don't think a player
character in any of my campaigns has ever died of old age, though after a
discussion with the player, one of them did die of natural causes in her
sleep).

In the end, they're just numbers on a piece of paper and (hopefully fond)
memories in the hearts of other players. If they die, it's not that big a
deal.

> A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
> he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
> For which of the above reasons would you kill him?

If he's being a munchie jackass, I'd have probably kicked him out of the
group already; I've done it before, and won't hesitate to do it again. The
character will die a quick and horrible death, and the player won't ever be
in one of my groups again.

> For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you
> fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?

Not if he didn't deserve a break. If the player is clearly just having a
bad night with his dice or whatever, I'll cut him some slack at an
appropriate moment.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 9
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 09:43:49 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Manolis Skoulikas <great_worm@*****.com>
To: Shadowrun <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 4:30 AM
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)


>Do you think characters should die?
>

Yes.

>Often?
>

No, that only detracts from the impact.

>Permanently?
>

Definitely. No twin brothers with everything the other guy had, either.

>Character death is really a very delicate issue and IMHO should be
>approached as such.
>
>To start up the 'heat', here's an example:
>
>A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
>he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
>For which of the above reasons would you kill him?
>

Player stupidity is the big one for me. If the player does something really
dumb I let the character have it with both barrels.

>For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you
>fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?
>

I regularly do. I hate killing characters, unless they're really asking for
it. In fact I sometimes argue with the player trying to convince them their
character survived. Actually, I have one player that is right in to setting
up each and every character as some kind of financial wizard. If I kill his
character then he says "Oh well" and pulls out a new one. If I destroy one
of his more expensive assetts, he becomes traumatised. Hit 'em where it
hurts.

>the wiz
>
>
Message no. 10
From: Nightmare ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:26:47 CDT
Manolis Skoulikas wrote:

>Do you think characters should die?

Yes, if it serves the story. Racking up dead PCs for no reason just wastes
paper, ticks off players, and makes character developement difficult if not
impossible.

>Often?

Maybe, depending on the story. If the PCs are getting into firefights with
vastly superior forces and standing their ground like idiots when they have
other options, a few PCs cut into hamburger often serves as a jumpstart for
the player's gray cells.

>Permanently?

YES!!! The ONLY way a dead PC comes back in my campaigns is as a ghost or a
zombie (I don't count HMHVV as death). I hate X-Menish and Crowish character
ressurrections with a passion, as they tend to annihilate the fear of death
for the characters ("What do I care if I die, Mark was ressurrected
yesterday! I'll just do the same thing.")
Death is permanent. Period.

>A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your >plotlines, he
>is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh >invincible. For which of
>the above reasons would you kill him?

Carelessness is a natural cause of death. Stupidity kills.

>For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you
>fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?

Yes, have and will continue to, especially in the first two or three
sessions of a new campaign. And especially with new players. Killing off a
new player's character in the first session, even if the rules call for it,
is just rude.



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Message no. 11
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:43:03 -0700
"Nightmare ..." wrote:
>
> YES!!! The ONLY way a dead PC comes back in my campaigns is as a ghost or a
> zombie (I don't count HMHVV as death). I hate X-Menish and Crowish character
> ressurrections with a passion, as they tend to annihilate the fear of death
> for the characters ("What do I care if I die, Mark was ressurrected
> yesterday! I'll just do the same thing.")
> Death is permanent. Period.

Crowish resurrections should be origins, not something that happens to a
long-term character. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 12
From: Nightmare ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:02:33 CDT
Deirdre responded (not to anything of mine at the moment, but whatever):

> > Character death is really a very delicate issue and IMHO should be
> > approached as such.

>Well, certainly, but if handled well can be a very powerful issue.

Most definitely. Toward the begining of the current run (about two months
ago real time), I had the entire group (the players, to be precise, not the
characters) in tears, literally, over the death of a relatively minor NPC (a
contact of one of PCs). Surprised the hell out of myself. I didn't think I
had made his death THAT dramatic.


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Message no. 13
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:04:36 -0500
From: Nightmare ...
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 8:27 PM

> >Permanently?
>
> YES!!! The ONLY way a dead PC comes back in my campaigns is as a
> ghost or a zombie (I don't count HMHVV as death).

But you should, since the character has to die before the virus does its
thing.

> I hate X-Menish and Crowish character
> ressurrections with a passion, as they tend to annihilate the
> fear of death for the characters ("What do I care if I die,
> Mark was ressurrected yesterday! I'll just do the same thing.")

While I'm not too keen on X-Men-style resurrections myself, you shouldn't
close the door on a Crow-style resurrection if it fits the storyline you
have in mind. It tends to work better when the Crow character is an NPC (in
my experience; it worked beautifully, especially when the PC I was picking
on at the time learned it was his dead girlfriend, and he was in her way).

While I'd be cautious about how I'd implement it, I wouldn't be averse to
allowing certain of my players to give a Crow-like thing a shot. Like
Deird'Re said elsewhere, though, this is better suited to a short campaign
and as a character's origin; it should be handled with extreme care if used
with a long-running PC.

Considering the quality control problem you've described with your players,
you're probably right and this should be avoided. But get yourself some
players who can handle it, and you might find it's pretty interesting.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 14
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:04:40 -0500
From: Deirdre M. Brooks
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 8:43 PM

> Crowish resurrections should be origins, not something that happens to a
> long-term character. :-)

I tend to agree with you, but I think that it would depend on the players,
the GM, and the kind of story the GM is trying to tell. There are many
variables to consider.

>From what I've seen on your website, I'd be interested in seeing how you'd
handle it, actually, but that's a different issue altogether.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 15
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:28:22 -0500
On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:04:36 -0500 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
> From: Nightmare ...
> Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 8:27 PM
<SNIP>
> > YES!!! The ONLY way a dead PC comes back in my campaigns is as a
> > ghost or a zombie (I don't count HMHVV as death).

> But you should, since the character has to die before the virus does
> its
> thing.
<SNIP>

What about ghouls? They don't die, AFAIK ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 16
From: Nightmare ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:18:58 CDT
Deirdre wrote:

>Crowish resurrections should be origins, not something that happens >to a
>long-term character. :-)

Gaaaaaaah! Don't get me wrong, I love the movies (hate the series), but the
whole Crow-revenant-come-back-from-the-dead-to-make-things-right thing has
just been done to death. It's almost a cliche. I donno, maybe the attitude
comes from a sort of twisted respect for Brandon Lee, or maybe its because a
past GM pulled that line on one of my characters before. Either way, the
whole idea is distastful. Now a near-death-experience-Vision-quest sort of
thing as a lot of potential on the other hand. Note the distinction,
though. In the Crow-style one, the character actually died. In the
NDE-style one, the character almost died (and may believe that he/she
actually did...), but somehow barely survived or was revived.

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Message no. 17
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:20:18 -0500
From: Alfredo B Alves
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 9:28 PM

> > > YES!!! The ONLY way a dead PC comes back in my campaigns is as a
> > > ghost or a zombie (I don't count HMHVV as death).
>
> > But you should, since the character has to die before the virus does
> > its thing.
>
> What about ghouls? They don't die, AFAIK ...

No, but some of them wish they did before it's all over; the transformation,
as described in a variety of sources, ain't pleasant.

There's also a lot of circumstantial evidence that Kreiger Syndrome, while
related, isn't actually HMHVV. For one thing, they don't drain Essence,
which is one of the hallmarks of HMHVV.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 18
From: Nightmare ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:32:35 CDT
Patrick Goodman wrote:

>But you should, since the character has to die before the virus does >its
>thing.

I didn't say I'd let the player keep the character ;) Besides, in my book,
HMHVV types are in about the same book as zombies and ghosts.

>Considering the quality control problem you've described with your
> >players, you're probably right and this should be avoided.

Definitely with a capital everything!

>But get yourself someplayers who can handle it, and you might find >it's
>pretty interesting.

Oh I wish! But unfortunately, I live in La Crosse, WI (the armpit of the
universe when it comes to gaming) at the moment, and RPG type people of any
sort are in short supply. So I'm stuck with what I get :( Don't get me
wrong, I like my players, but sometimes (a lot) I question their abilities.






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Message no. 19
From: Nightmare ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:37:24 CDT
Alfredo B Alves wrote:

>What about ghouls? They don't die, AFAIK ...

I technically allow ghouls as PCs under the Shadowrun Companion 3rd Edition
rules, but no one has tried one yet, which kinda sucks. Ghouls are cool, in
a sick sort of way.

As for infecting a PC with Kieger-strain HMHVV, I haven't tried that yet for
the simple reason that it hasn't fit into the story.........yet ;)
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Message no. 20
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:40:46 -0700
Patrick Goodman wrote:
>
> From: Deirdre M. Brooks
> Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 8:43 PM
>
> > Crowish resurrections should be origins, not something that happens to a
> > long-term character. :-)
>
> I tend to agree with you, but I think that it would depend on the players,
> the GM, and the kind of story the GM is trying to tell. There are many
> variables to consider.

Agreed. :-)

>From experience, tho, Crow-like characters get ripe after they're out
too long.

> From what I've seen on your website, I'd be interested in seeing how you'd
> handle it, actually, but that's a different issue altogether.

I'm trying to figure out what on my website elicited this response. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 21
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:44:12 -0700
"Nightmare ..." wrote:
>
> Deirdre wrote:
>
> >Crowish resurrections should be origins, not something that happens >to a
> >long-term character. :-)
>
> Gaaaaaaah! Don't get me wrong, I love the movies (hate the series), but the
> whole Crow-revenant-come-back-from-the-dead-to-make-things-right thing has
> just been done to death. It's almost a cliche.

Well, actually, the idea of coming back from the dead for whatever
reason has been around for a *long* time. Think "Persephone." Or
"Orpheus." Or "Herbert West, Reanimator" or "The Case of Charles
Dexter
Ward." There's a *lot* of dramatic material here.

As for "cliches." I think cliches get an unfair bad rap - cliches are
cliches because they *work*.

> I donno, maybe the attitude
> comes from a sort of twisted respect for Brandon Lee,

Have you ever read the original Crow comic?

> or maybe its because a
> past GM pulled that line on one of my characters before. Either way, the
> whole idea is distastful.

I disagree it's distasteful - I think it can be very powerful if handled
well, but it's not resurrection.

> Now a near-death-experience-Vision-quest sort of
> thing as a lot of potential on the other hand. Note the distinction,
> though. In the Crow-style one, the character actually died. In the
> NDE-style one, the character almost died (and may believe that he/she
> actually did...), but somehow barely survived or was revived.

Yes, I note the distinction. The two are very different concepts and
don't really relate to each other.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 22
From: Nightmare ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:01:11 CDT
Deirdre wrote:

>Well, actually, the idea of coming back from the dead for whatever
>reason has been around for a *long* time. Think "Persephone." Or
>"Orpheus." Or "Herbert West, Reanimator" or "The Case of
Charles >Dexter
>Ward." There's a *lot* of dramatic material here.

Very true. Ironic that you should mention Reanimator and CDW, though, since
my view of returns from the dead tends to be Lovecraftian in that are
generally a very, very bad thing.

>As for "cliches." I think cliches get an unfair bad rap - cliches are
>cliches because they *work*.

Maybe, maybe not. Anything overused tends to loose its impact to a degree
though. For instance, I've had may current PCs encounter one single,
solitary vampire in the entire campaign so far, but a literal horde of
zombies (experimenting with a Resident Evil style run). Result - The
players hate and fear vampires to the point that they get pissed if even
hint at the possibility of running into one again (especially the same one),
but they think nothing of facing down a horde of zombies again, even though
they lost two teammates on that run and another one was crippled (lead pipe
through the spine).

>Have you ever read the original Crow comic?

Yeah, a couple of times. The first movie had more impact on me though.

>Yes, I note the distinction. The two are very different concepts and
>don't really relate to each other.

True. I had to mention it before I forgot it though. I tend to be a bit
absent minded ;)



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Message no. 23
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:30:27 -0500
On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:20:18 -0500 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
<SNIP>
> related, isn't actually HMHVV. For one thing, they don't drain
> Essence,
> which is one of the hallmarks of HMHVV.

What about Fomorians? Bandersnatches? Loup-Garou?

--
D. Ghost
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- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 24
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:15:01 -0500
From: Deirdre M. Brooks
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 9:41 PM

> > I tend to agree with you, but I think that it would depend on the
> > players, the GM, and the kind of story the GM is trying to tell.
> > There are many variables to consider.
>
> Agreed. :-)
>
> From experience, tho, Crow-like characters get ripe after they're out
> too long.

Well, that's one reason I said it should be a short-lived campaign. Hell,
it's even better as a one-off adventure over a couple or three gaming
sessions, something one of the players does (with GM approval, and in some
cases assistance) while another character is on the mend and she wants to
try something a little out there to keep the role-playing muscles from
getting flabby.

> > From what I've seen on your website, I'd be interested in seeing
> > how you'd handle it, actually, but that's a different issue altogether.
>
> I'm trying to figure out what on my website elicited this response. :-)

Another of my gut-feeling issues. Just something about how NPCs were
presented, and how they interacted with each other in some cases, gave me
the feeling that it'd be pretty cool to see you playing something like this.

Again, nothing rational, just something that came to me from the ether, as
it were.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 25
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:20:26 -0700
"Nightmare ..." wrote:
>
> Deirdre wrote:
>
> >Well, actually, the idea of coming back from the dead for whatever
> >reason has been around for a *long* time. Think "Persephone." Or
> >"Orpheus." Or "Herbert West, Reanimator" or "The Case of
Charles >Dexter
> >Ward." There's a *lot* of dramatic material here.
>
> Very true. Ironic that you should mention Reanimator and CDW, though, since
> my view of returns from the dead tends to be Lovecraftian in that are
> generally a very, very bad thing.

I think Top Dollar would agree that The Crow's return from the dead was
a "very bad thing." On the other hand, Persephone's return from the dead
marked the changing of the seasons from Winter to Spring, and her death
marked Summer to Autumn. I think her return was viewed as a good thing
(still, dying and getting resurrected every year - seems tedious).

> >As for "cliches." I think cliches get an unfair bad rap - cliches are
> >cliches because they *work*.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. Anything overused tends to loose its impact to a degree
> though.

I wouldn't agree. Zombies have a long and respectable history as cannon
fodder - from Doom to Evil Dead II/Army of Darkness to Night of the
Living Dead to Resident Evil to whatever - so you're not likely to see
much hate and fear of zombies, just grim determination to mow them down
before they spread.

That said, I've managed to invoke hate and fear with zombies. :-)


Remember - cliches are your friends, they are not to be avoided. They
are cliches because they *work*.

> >Have you ever read the original Crow comic?
>
> Yeah, a couple of times. The first movie had more impact on me though.

Which did you read/see first?

> >Yes, I note the distinction. The two are very different concepts and
> >don't really relate to each other.
>
> True. I had to mention it before I forgot it though. I tend to be a bit
> absent minded ;)

Fair enough.

--
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Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 26
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:25:56 -0500
From: Alfredo B Alves
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:30 PM

> > related, isn't actually HMHVV. For one thing, they don't drain
> > Essence, which is one of the hallmarks of HMHVV.
>
> What about Fomorians? Bandersnatches? Loup-Garou?

You mean the infamous Strain 2? I'm thinking in terms of the same idea:
Related, perhaps even similar, but not HMHVV per se. None of these critters
drain Essence, either. They also don't have expressions in more than two
human species (trolls and humans), whereas HMHVV-1 has expressions in all 5
metahuman species.

The expression for HMHVV and HMHVV-2 is also different in all species it
affect, whereas it's the same (a ghoul) in all species for Kreiger.

If I have anything to say about it (and there's no guarantee I will),
"further scientific study" is going to determine that they jumped the gun
calling those diseases HMHVV. As usual, your mileage may vary, and I'm sure
it will. <g>

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 27
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:00:13 -0500
On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:25:56 -0500 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
<SNIP>
> They also don't have expressions in more
> than two
> human species (trolls and humans), whereas HMHVV-1 has expressions
> in all 5
> metahuman species.

What is the strain-1 expression in Dwarves?

<SNIP>
> If I have anything to say about it (and there's no guarantee I
> will),
> "further scientific study" is going to determine that they jumped
> the gun
> calling those diseases HMHVV. As usual, your mileage may vary, and
> I'm sure
> it will. <g>

You might have better luck getting "further study" to say that HMHVV is a
category representing virally induced transformations.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 28
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:46:11 -0500
From: Alfredo B Alves
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 11:00 PM

> > They also don't have expressions in more than two
> > human species (trolls and humans), whereas HMHVV-1 has expressions
> > in all 5 metahuman species.
>
> What is the strain-1 expression in Dwarves?

The goblin. Vicious little critter it is, too. Dumb as a rock, but
vicious.

> > If I have anything to say about it (and there's no guarantee I
> > will), "further scientific study" is going to determine that they
> > jumped the gun calling those diseases HMHVV. As usual, your
> > mileage may vary, and I'm sure it will. <g>
>
> You might have better luck getting "further study" to say that HMHVV is
> a category representing virally induced transformations.

Maybe, but the VV in there does stand for Vampiric Virus. We'll see in the
months to come, I suppose.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 29
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 00:05:05 -0400
"Deirdre M. Brooks" wrote:

> "Nightmare ..." wrote:
> >
> > Deirdre wrote:
> <SNIP>

> On the other hand, Persephone's return from the dead
> marked the changing of the seasons from Winter to Spring, and her death
> marked Summer to Autumn. I think her return was viewed as a good thing
> (still, dying and getting resurrected every year - seems tedious).

Now, my knowledge of Greek Mythology is a bit rusty, but it seemed to me that
Persephone never /died/ (supposed to be in italics). She was pulled into the
underworld by Hades on his chariot, and then she ate the six pomegranate (IIRC)
seeds and so had to stay in the underworld for six months, and could be with
Demeter for the other six. And Demeter's grief at her separation (from Persephone)
was what caused Autumn and Winter, and her happiness are the reunion created
Spring and Summer. So there was no dying, just traveling to the underworld as a
living being. (You wouldn't argue that Orpheus, when he went to reclaim his love
died, would you? I see Persephone's trip and Orpheus' as the same thing.)
<SNIP>

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

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Message no. 30
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:29:25 -0700
Strago wrote:
>
> Now, my knowledge of Greek Mythology is a bit rusty, but it seemed to me that
> Persephone never /died/ (supposed to be in italics).

So she spends six months in the afterlife, but she's not "dead."

<snip elementary level Greek myth lesson>

Now I suppose you'll go on to tell me water is wet, or that the sky is
blue when there are no clouds? Perhaps that it is very cold in Alaska?

> So there was no dying, just traveling to the underworld as a
> living being. (You wouldn't argue that Orpheus, when he went to reclaim his love
> died, would you? I see Persephone's trip and Orpheus' as the same thing.)
> <SNIP>

The *story* of Orpheus is about Orpheus trying to restore his wife,
Eurydice, to life. I think that the story of *Orpheus* is a valid
example.

As is Persephone.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 31
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 00:41:55 -0400
(Please note, I mean this without any sarcasm or intending my response as an attack)
"Deirdre M. Brooks" wrote:

> Strago wrote:
> >
> > Now, my knowledge of Greek Mythology is a bit rusty, but it seemed to me that
> > Persephone never /died/ (supposed to be in italics).
>
> So she spends six months in the afterlife, but she's not "dead."

Exactly. People seemed to be throwing Persephone out as another "resurrection".
I was
just trying to correct a mistaken impression.

> <snip elementary level Greek myth lesson>
>
> Now I suppose you'll go on to tell me water is wet, or that the sky is
> blue when there are no clouds? Perhaps that it is very cold in Alaska?
>

If someone had claimed that it is not very cold in Alaska, I would have corrected
them. Just as some people will correct a rules mistake.

>
> > So there was no dying, just traveling to the underworld as a
> > living being. (You wouldn't argue that Orpheus, when he went to reclaim his love
> > died, would you? I see Persephone's trip and Orpheus' as the same thing.)
> > <SNIP>
>
> The *story* of Orpheus is about Orpheus trying to restore his wife,
> Eurydice, to life. I think that the story of *Orpheus* is a valid
> example.
>

I must admit, I am a bit confused here. Is the first sentence a quick recap of the
story for the rest of the list? Or does it mean something else?
And it is a valid example of what? Resurrection?

>
> As is Persephone.
>
> --
> Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
> Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
> "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
> -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

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Message no. 32
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:07:33 -0500
On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:46:11 -0500 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
> From: Alfredo B Alves
<SNIP>
> > What is the strain-1 expression in Dwarves?

> The goblin. Vicious little critter it is, too. Dumb as a rock, but
> vicious.

I could've sworn that was Strain 2. Oh well. Good thing I didn't. :)

<SNIP>
> > You might have better luck getting "further study" to say that
> > HMHVV is
> > a category representing virally induced transformations.

> Maybe, but the VV in there does stand for Vampiric Virus. We'll see
> in the
> months to come, I suppose.

Well. There's epilepsy and epileptic tendencies. AFAIK, they're unrelated
except in that have similar symptoms. Also, IIRC, epileptic tendencies is
not one disorder, but rather a class of disorders. Well, hopefully
there's a point in there somewhere ... My reccomendation (for the
somewhat imediate future) is push for "further study" to acheive the
above. THEN, after that's done, you're in a better position to do what
you originally wanted to do.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 33
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 07:19:35 -0700 (PDT)
> Without a doubt. In fact, since most GM's roll
> incredibly well (some
> universal luck issue) I find my self adjusting the
> rolls in the favor of the
> players quite a bit. I wish I could learn how to
> transfer this gift to the
> other side of the screen. I do balance this with the
> concept of "getting
> stupid or greedy will get you killed".
>
> Smilin' Jack

You know, it's not really a Universal Rule...People
rarely get very seriously injured when my fiance is
GMing anything. No matter what dice he uses, he is a
bad roller. He can't roll to hit a player, and when he
does hit, it's usually for too much and brings the
player within an inch of his or her life (the mage has
tries to heal the person and gets them all the way up
to one box before deadly). But of course the person
that gets almost killed is the one they need in the
next scene for some special reason... But otherwise if
he's a pc or a gm, his rolling sucks like a hoover.
And it's good that way sometimes...

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 34
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:33:08 GMT
Incedently, the way I have my current campaign going the characters have
left Seattle for New Orleans after it started raining red sams (watcing
their homes, safehouses, friends ect.) They don't know why, if the contacts
they left behind are alive or even if they are ever going to get back to
Seattle. I also blew the arm of an adept character and had the others drag
him to a street doc who replaced it with chrome. The adept hates cyberware
and so he is pretty upset, all the other characters are scared for their
contacts and their own lives; much less definitive than PC deaths but just
as effective for shaking up campaigns. In my opinion at least.

Phil
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Message no. 35
From: Nightmare ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:48:21 CDT
Deirdre wrote:

>I think Top Dollar would agree that The Crow's return from the dead was a
>"very bad thing."

True. You've got me thinking on this one. Ever see Lord of Illusions?

>That said, I've managed to invoke hate and fear with zombies. :-)

You must be good. ;)

>Which did you read/see first?

The movie. Actually, I didn't know Top Dollar's name til about a year
later. Love the character though.


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Message no. 36
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 18:50:16 -0400 (EDT)
Manolis Skoulikas <great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> Do you think characters should die?
> Often?

I found that character interaction improves as the characters
spend time together, so it shouldn't be a frequent thing unless
characters are acting like idiots.

> Permanently?

Depends on the cause of death. If you managed to inspect a
dead body (the player marking damage exceeding overflow counts), then
yeah, they're gone. If I'm feeling exceedingly generous, I might
consider a one-shot involving a free spirit and unfinished business,
but only because we haven't held one in our local group yet. It
definitely wouldn't be something that happens twice in a player or
runner group.

If there's no actual verifiable corpse, which means it's
probably a situation where a dying runner is left bleeding to death
while the rest of the team is forced to withdraw, then there's a
definite possibility. Some options I might pick, in order of
likelyhood, would be to

1) let them die

2) fix them up and let them go relatively quickly after an
interrogation session, inducing memory loss, and installing several
methods of tracking. Hopefully, the rest of the team can be taken
down this time.

3) fix them up and return the character back as an NPC with a
vendetta, either the PCs or the original cause of near-death.

4) have them forgotten in a prison somewhere (post-interrogation).
It'd be a definite possibility for the other PCs to make a rescue
attempt once they discover this, but the low odds of the typical PC to
make the attempt makes this option unlikely in my group.

5) save them from death at the last minute by a friendly NPC, spending
a lot of time out of contact in recuperation. (It would have to be a
pretty plausible situation, which makes this unlikely.)

Variants include dropping rumors of any and all of the above.

> To start up the 'heat', here's an example:
>
> A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
> he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
> For which of the above reasons would you kill him?

I'd try to head off the munchkin aspects at character creation. The
only offenses you list that suggest killing off the character are
being careless and foolhardy, in my campaign.

Mark
Message no. 37
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 16:11:14 -0700
"Nightmare ..." wrote:
>
> Deirdre wrote:
>
> >I think Top Dollar would agree that The Crow's return from the dead was a
> >"very bad thing."
>
> True. You've got me thinking on this one. Ever see Lord of Illusions?

The Crow is really a standard horror story from the ghost's point of
view. :-)

> >That said, I've managed to invoke hate and fear with zombies. :-)
>
> You must be good. ;)

It's a matter of how you do it, and how often, I think. Not unlike what
you said elsewhere.

> >Which did you read/see first?
>
> The movie. Actually, I didn't know Top Dollar's name til about a year
> later. Love the character though.

I just like Michael Wincott. I think I'll base an NPC on a few of his
characters (Top Dollar, the crime boss from that movie with BTL
headgear...)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 38
From: Nightmare ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:27:16 CDT
Deirdre wrote:

>I just like Michael Wincott. I think I'll base an NPC on a few of his
>characters (Top Dollar, the crime boss from that movie with BTL
>headgear...)

Ditto here. The guy is just cool. He does a great job in Alien
Ressurrection too. One of my players and I have a running discussion on
involving who would play various characters in the campaign if it was ever
made into a movie or TV series (fat chance, but it's a fun discussion ;).
Michael Wincott was my choice to play the main reoccuring NPC, a
western/biker style elven raven shaman who works as a freelance assassin and
shadowrunner. I don't know how Wincott would look in elf ears though... ;)


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Message no. 39
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:30:28 -0400 (EDT)
"Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com> writes:
> > The movie. Actually, I didn't know Top Dollar's name til about a year
> > later. Love the character though.
>
> I just like Michael Wincott. I think I'll base an NPC on a few of his
> characters (Top Dollar, the crime boss from that movie with BTL
> headgear...)

Strange Days? That's my favorite "SR" movie.

> "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."

Have you grabbed the new one shot, "I hate it here"? It's a
bunch of articles from Spider's column, and an excuse to use all the
guest art. Transmetropolitan is wonderful.

Mark
Message no. 40
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 16:31:27 -0700
"Nightmare ..." wrote:
>
> Deirdre wrote:
>
> >I just like Michael Wincott. I think I'll base an NPC on a few of his
> >characters (Top Dollar, the crime boss from that movie with BTL
> >headgear...)

Note to self:

Strange Days was the name. :-)

> Michael Wincott was my choice to play the main reoccuring NPC, a
> western/biker style elven raven shaman who works as a freelance assassin and
> shadowrunner. I don't know how Wincott would look in elf ears though... ;)

He'd look like Michael Wincott with pointy ears.

But he needs to be a chain smoker.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 41
From: Nightmare ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:39:00 CDT
Deirdre wrote:

>But he needs to be a chain smoker.

He is.



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Message no. 42
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:16:44 -0700
Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> > I just like Michael Wincott. I think I'll base an NPC on a few of his
> > characters (Top Dollar, the crime boss from that movie with BTL
> > headgear...)
>
> Strange Days? That's my favorite "SR" movie.

Yes.

I also liked him in the Three Musketeers.

> > "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
>
> Have you grabbed the new one shot, "I hate it here"? It's a
> bunch of articles from Spider's column, and an excuse to use all the
> guest art. Transmetropolitan is wonderful.

I do own this thing.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 43
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:04:44 -0500
From: Deirdre M. Brooks
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 6:11 PM

> I just like Michael Wincott. I think I'll base an NPC on a few of
> his characters (Top Dollar, the crime boss from that movie with BTL
> headgear...)

My PC in the (hopefully temporarily) dead Feng Shui game I was involved in
was a Drifter from the 2059 juncture who looked like Michael Wincott. Dark
hero type, and he was always there when he was needed.

I've determined that the next major NPC I intro in the SR will be built
around how he looked as Top Dollar, though he's going to be a good guy.
Well, as good as these guys ever actually get, anyway. He's not going to be
the villain (though he is one of the villains in my roomie's 7TH SEA game).

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 44
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:33:16 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Now, my knowledge of Greek Mythology is a bit
rusty, but it seemed to me that Persephone never
/died/ (supposed to be in italics).
> >
> > So she spends six months in the afterlife, but
she's not "dead."
> > Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com |
>
> Exactly. People seemed to be throwing Persephone out
as another "resurrection". I was just trying to
correct a mistaken impression.
> --Strago

Well, yes, Deird're. In Greek mythology, the afterlife
seems to be treated as an actual, physical place, in
the same way as Mount Olympus. Mortals could reach it
without dying - albeit with GREAT effort etc.

Just my 2c.

Btw, Deird're I'm sorry to be ignorant (but I'm young,
so sue me ;) ), but who in hell is Spider Jerusalem? :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 45
From: Daniel Sauve ahsdreamwalker@****.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 03:20:45 -0400
> Just my 2c.
>
> Btw, Deird're I'm sorry to be ignorant (but I'm young,
> so sue me ;) ), but who in hell is Spider Jerusalem? :)
www.tranmetropolitan.com

You'll be sorry you ask, but I think that's half the point... 8-D

-d-d-d-d-d-
Moderating RTTM. I remain:
Daniel S., aka Kristling Dragon's Wingman Dreamflyer,
ICQ # 53874855 / ahsdreamwalker@****.com
Holder of 74 useless quote points.
--------I am Sigfreud, the Living Sig, V. 74.55
Evolution doesn't take prisoners.
Sadly, this has resulted in
The Delirium Of Being Daniel
< ahsdreamwalker@****.com >
Message no. 46
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:59:06 -0700 (PDT)
> > I just like Michael Wincott. I think I'll base an
> NPC on a few of his
> > characters (Top Dollar, the crime boss from that
> movie with BTL
> > headgear...)
>
> Strange Days? That's my favorite "SR" movie.
<Mark Shieh>

*Doc' drools*

Man, about ten minutes into that movie I sat bolt
upright and stared at the TV and didn't stop until it
was over. One thought kept running through my mind -
"God! This IS Shadowrun!"

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 47
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:55:22 +0200
Manolis Skoulikas wrote:

> Do you think characters should die?

No, unless they do something really stupid or when they are no longer
walking on the edge but fell over.

> Often?

Not really, IMO killing PCs to often will demoralize the players. They will
no longer spend time in fleshing out characters and will no longer create
backgrounds, since their characters will probably die in the next 3
sessions.

So definitely a NO from my end, but that doesn't mean that the players will
get away with everything they do. There are much worse thing than death
when you are teaching your PCs a lesson.

> Permanently?

When a character dies it is permanent, there is no way of comming back
(IMHO), at least not as a PC.

> Character death is really a very delicate issue and IMHO should be
> approached as such.
>
> To start up the 'heat', here's an example:
>
> A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
> he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
> For which of the above reasons would you kill him?

Probably for being careless, because that will get them in trouble.

At the beginning of my carreer as a GM I had some regrets when PCs messed up
my plotlines, but now I realized that flexiblity is much more the key word.
I tend to adapt the plotlines as the game progresses and I no longer write
down the complete story, but only the key NPCs and the mayor plotlines. All
the rest will evolve depending on the players actions or not.
This works in their advance, as they can change some of the plotlines and
have a stronger hold on the outcome of the story, but it also works against
them, as their actions will have consequences that will show in the
continuing sessions.
I know it demands more of my spare time and means much more work and
preparation from my end, but it more gratifying and more pleasant this way.


> For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you
> fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?

All depends upon the situation. I kind a resent the save or die rolls,
since they offer no way out for the player and all depend on a roll of the
dice. So if the player was really unlucky and would have gotten away
otherwise then I will fudge roll.

Just my thoughts,

-Sven :)
--
Message no. 48
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 19:42:39 GMT
>From: "Nightmare ..." <tarot0@*******.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
>Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:27:16 CDT
>
>Deirdre wrote:
>
>>I just like Michael Wincott. I think I'll base an NPC on a few of his
>>characters (Top Dollar, the crime boss from that movie with BTL
>>headgear...)
>
>Ditto here. The guy is just cool. He does a great job in Alien
>Ressurrection too. One of my players and I have a running discussion on
>involving who would play various characters in the campaign if it was ever
>made into a movie or TV series (fat chance, but it's a fun discussion ;).
>Michael Wincott was my choice to play the main reoccuring NPC, a
>western/biker style elven raven shaman who works as a freelance assassin
>and
>shadowrunner. I don't know how Wincott would look in elf ears though... ;)
>

Last week me and a few others had a four day Shadorun fest and the two
characters I played were basicly a cybered
George-Clooney-from-Dust-Til'-Dawn and Al Pachino from Heat but following
the totem of Dog. When I caa't think of my own characters I steel other
people's.

Phil
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Message no. 49
From: Fredrik Holmqvist pagan@*******.swipnet.se
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 23:19:48 +0200
At 21:29 2000-04-30 +0300, you wrote:
>Do you think characters should die?

Yes.

>Often?

I will never go out of my way to kill a character...

>Permanently?

Death is quite permanent don't you think?

>To start up the 'heat', here's an example:
>
>A PC is pushing it too far. He is munchkiny, he upsets your plotlines,
>he is careless and foolhardy and believes he is nigh invincible.
>For which of the above reasons would you kill him?
>
>For the most kind hearted (grasping at straws here, :) ) would you
>fudge a roll to help a player survive even if he doesn't deserve it?

I have fudged rolls to have a player survive becuase he had a lot of back
luck... And he (the player) go in a destructive mood. He really didn't
deserve to die. But i agree killing a player character is a touchy subject.
Still in my oppinion, letting a player get away with just anything is as
bad...

/Honken - Just my few coins...
#define homepage http://home.swipnet.se/~w-60508/index.html

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Message no. 50
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: DCPS (Dead Characters Per Second)
Date: Wed May 03 02:57:45 2000
In a message dated Mon, 1 May 2000 10:20:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Raveness Ravensbane
<ravenessravensbane@*****.com> writes:

<<You know, it's not really a Universal Rule...People
rarely get very seriously injured when my fiance is
GMing anything. No matter what dice he uses, he is a
bad roller. He can't roll to hit a player, and when he
does hit, it's usually for too much and brings the
player within an inch of his or her life (the mage has
tries to heal the person and gets them all the way up
to one box before deadly). But of course the person
that gets almost killed is the one they need in the
next scene for some special reason... But otherwise if
he's a pc or a gm, his rolling sucks like a hoover.
And it's good that way sometimes...>>


Thank god there's other people like me out there then. I couldn't roll high to save my
life... On the last run, we got shot up a bit. I was using Biotech and the Guardian (???)
medkit to help some team mates. With 9 total dice, I manage to roll 3's and 2's for a TN#4
and 3's, 4's, and 5's for a TN#6.

Cash

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