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From:	The Reverend <IH46@****.BITNET>
Subject:	Deadly +
Date:	Sun, 10 Jan 93 18:23:37 MST

Message no. 1 Someone told me that GrimII has information on how to deal with deadly
+ stagings. (Deadly + is what happens if you stage above deadly). The
person I talked to said SOMETHING about Raising the power 2 for 2. Can
someone post it please? I AM going to be buying this soon, but I just
bought a friend a copy, and he left town (with da book) for a couple
weeks. Thanx!

--- Shaun Cassidy for President! Let's get
The Reverend Slick Willie out NOW!
"My employers have changed but the name remains"

From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	RE: Deadly+
Date:	Tue, 12 Jan 93 23:19:50 CET

Message no. 2 Reverend,
There are rules in Grim II about deadly+ staging, and yes it does raise
the power by 2 for each level. Your friend might have failed to mention
that these rules are for determining the Drain code of spells, and are in no
way meant to be a combat rules modification.

See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker

From:	The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject:	Deadly +
Date:	Sun, 4 Apr 93 03:10:32 CET

Message no. 3 Ratty said this, and I hereby protest. (the ]'s are mine)

]>>>>> "David" == David B. Beck
]>>>>> <BECK5338%FREDONIA.bitnet@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl> writes:

David> door suddenly bursts open and a large man with a Predator II opens
David> up on him. Now, H.T. is wearing no armor (oops|). The attacker has
David> a 12 skill with a Predator II. Just for the record this is using
David> SRII rules but the question is just as valid for SRI.! The first
David> shot, due to the smartgun link and VM3, results in 10 successes.
David> This brings the damage up to 9D2 plus an extra 6 successes.

]Hang on a sec. Under SRII, Hair Trigger would now make his resistance test.
]Each success of HT's will negate one of the attacker's successes. Let's
]assume HT gets 4 successes on his resistance test (just for an example).
]The attacker has a total net of 6 successes, staging damage up to S to D
](extra successes at this point don't do anything), so HT takes a Deadly
]wound. HT drops unconcious and starts bleeding to death.

]David> Now if H.T. had been wearing armor while he was napping, as all
]David> smart samurai do, these extra successes would have reduced his armor
]David> value by 1 for every 2 extra successes.

]Wow. You *really* don't understand SRII. Every point of Armor reduces the

Well, it depends. Dave's been talking about SR1 & 2. Now, armor and deadly+
staging makes a BIG difference under sr1, and I think the question being asked
is: what happens if it stages above deadly? Under sr1, you'd peel armor.
According to this, you not only CAN'T peel armor, but you get no advantages by
getting MANY successes. Under SR1 (and our rule when rolling down was:
D++==>D+==>D==>S==>M==>L==>0.), deadly+ staging was VERY handy. What
advantages
do you get? Granted, he will take a D wound. BUT! If he's wearing butch armor,
then he can probably escape unscathed. You're saying that there's no advantage
to merely rolling a D, as opposed to a D+++++. There SHOULD be. What should it
be?

]:-), then he'd take a Deadly wound; the extra successes don't do anything
]to the armor; the rule you seem to be using is for certain Magical effects
](I don't have a grimthingy handy so I can't check right now).

That's the problem. It did quite a bit under 1, but nothing under 2. And it
DOES make a difference, especially when attempting the "one-shot" effect.
And that IS the rule for magic spells under Grimoire II. It is supposedly not
for regular fire combat, but we use it for that. It helps duplicate the effect
that was so ...effective... under SR1.

David> What if for whatever reason H.T. has no combat pool left?
]He only gets to roll Body dice to resist the damage.

]David> Do the extra successes take away from his body test to resist the
]David> damage?
]No, they just make it more difficult to resist the damage.

Actually, it just makes it harder to dodge the blow, according to you and
vanilla-Sr2.

David> Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Here's a little more. Hope it helps. Rev

---
The Reverend (NEW ADDRESS! mdb0213@****.tamu.edu)
"They called me the Reverend when I entered the church unstained"
aka
Head Shot "A Head Shot a day keeps the Doktor away"

From:	Robert Link <link@*****.PHYSICS.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Deadly +
Date:	Sun, 4 Apr 93 14:04:02 EDT

Message no. 4 (Sorry about that last; the mailer was misbehaving.)

Well, it depends. Dave's been talking about SR1 & 2. Now, armor and
deadly+ staging makes a BIG difference under sr1, and I think the
question being asked is: what happens if it stages above deadly?
Under sr1, you'd peel armor. According to this, you not only CAN'T
peel armor, but you get no advantages by getting MANY successes.
Under SR1 (and our rule when rolling down was:
D++==>D+==>D==>S==>M==>L==>0.), deadly+ staging was VERY handy.
What advantages do you get? Granted, he will take a D wound. BUT!
If he's wearing butch armor, then he can probably escape unscathed.
You're saying that there's no advantage to merely rolling a D, as
opposed to a D+++++. There SHOULD be. What should it be?

I'm not convinced that there should be any advantage to rolling a
D++++ as opposed to just a D. Our gm allows extra successes to make
the shot harder to dodge using combat pool, but when it is determined
that the shot has hit, damage is staged down from D.

Example: (from last night's game):

I shoot at the european gargoyle with my trusty Predator II (damage
9M):
our system:
Roll firearms 6, combat pool 6 (average 10 successes).
Gargoyle resists damage of 9D with his 10 body+2 threat rating.
Result: no damage (probably--he was rolling for 2's)

D++++++ system:
Roll firearms 6, combat pool 6 (still 10 successes).
Gargoyle resists damage of 9D+++ with his stats given above.
Result: Gargoyle takes Moderate damage (average) or Serious, if he
rolls just one success below average. And I have a second shot left
this action. . .

The point is that if I'm shooting with a pistol against something
relatively tough, there comes a point when it doesn't matter how
skilled I am; the pistol round simply *won't* penetrate. If you allow
staging past deadly, then it doesn't matter what kind of weapon you
are using; you can kill anything just by racking up four more
successes on your firearms test than it does on its body test. With
your combat pool working for you that isn't too hard to do. . .

-rpl

"No damnation without representation!"
-David E. Collins

From:	bradferguson%dlu.dnet@***.VANDERBILT.EDU
Subject:	deadly +
Date:	Sun, 4 Apr 93 13:48:31 -0500

Message no. 5 A possible solution for you all to try out would be a compromise between the two
systems (SR I & II). I see what they were trying to do by toning down the fire-
power of the weaponry, but they did away with something important. It is ridic-
ulous to throw away the extra successes. Obviously in the age of new armour and
awakened creatures, firepower is going to less effective than before, BUT...
There are some instances that just don't fit into this. For example, suppose
some hapless character becomes the object of ire of a person who happens to have
and AVM handy. Granted, with the right armour and a little luck (karma, nudge
nudge - wink, wink) this character might survive, especially if he is one of the
hairier metahuman species, but tossing away the extra successes is just out.
That armour is not going to survive it unscathed; that is the whole point of ar-
mour: to let it soak up the punishment that was meant for you.

So, if they want to eliminate stages past deadly to make the incredible volumes
of firepower that characters can generate less dominant, same way they did the
combat spells (sort of), no problem, but keeping in the destruction of armour
points by the past-deadly successes would be a good balancing agent.

"The surest way to posess a thing is to devestate it."
-- Niccolo Machiavelli

x------------------------------------------x
| BRADFERGUSON%DLU.DNET@***.VANDERBILT.EDU |
| David Lipscomb University |
| Nashville, TN |
x------------------------------------------x

From:	jlarke@***.ITD.UMICH.EDU
Subject:	Re: Deadly +
Date:	Sun, 4 Apr 93 15:14:35 -0400

Message no. 6 In message <9304041808.AA09292@***.itd.umich.edu> Robert Link writes:
>
>The point is that if I'm shooting with a pistol against something
>relatively tough, there comes a point when it doesn't matter how
>skilled I am; the pistol round simply *won't* penetrate. If you allow
>staging past deadly, then it doesn't matter what kind of weapon you
>are using; you can kill anything just by racking up four more
>successes on your firearms test than it does on its body test. With
>your combat pool working for you that isn't too hard to do. . .
>

It seems to me that this *is* realistic. There are places where most
forms of armor just don't protect- for example, even a bulletproof
visor can be penetrated fairly easily by a direct hit from a good-
quality pistol. I figure that a PC who rolls 10 or twelve succeses,
where one is enough to hit, probably is good enough to put shots
right into the victims eyes, or open mouth, or other places where
the body just doesn't offer much protection.

From:	"Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject:	Deadly +
Date:	Sun, 4 Apr 93 23:10:21 CET

Message no. 7 Rev:
]I shoot with my 10 dice (6+4 from combat pool), getting 8 successes (lucky,
]aren't I?) with my Predator (9M base). Let's say he gets 2 successes. That
]gives me 6 net successes. 9M==>9S==>9D==>9(D+1). Now the variant rule comes
]in:
]9(d+1)D. It raises the power of the weapon. If I had gotten 8 successes,
]that would change the power to a 13D. From our "field test" of it on Friday,
]it seems to work rather well. Anyone else try this?

Our "house rule" (and I am as reticent to employ that particular bit of
phraseology as Doom is to speak of Street Samurai.) is that each staging above
deadly raises the effective power of the weapon 2 points. This modified power
is then used in the resistance test. So, in Rev's example (remaining above for
your pleasure) the idgit being perforated by Rev would have rolled a resistance
test against a 13D with his sucesses going directly against Rev's sucesses of
course. Then, damage would be assessed and delivered.

Now, the question many of you will ask is: gosh!! Isn't this really deadly?
Well, let's say that I encourage my players to seek cover regularly. :)
In all seriousness, though, I feel that this reflects either a really good shot
(high rolls - many dice) or a really lucky shot (high rolls - few dice).
So far, it works pretty well.

-Flare.

From:	The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject:	Deadly +
Date:	Sun, 4 Apr 93 23:14:55 CET

Message no. 8 Nightstalker said:
> Now as I see it, both systems cover rather clearly what happens if you get
>more successes than necessary to initially raise the damage code above deadly.
>In SRII it keeps the damage at deadly longer by requiring the target to
>to roll a bunch of successes just to get the damage down to deadly.
The problem is what happens after rolling down the damage.
Say I hit the person with 8 successes with my Predator2. They roll 2 successes,
thereby giving me a net of 6 successes. That equivalates to a 9(d+1). Which,
in SR2, drops to a deadly. Let's say the guy has a 6 body, with an armored
longcoat. He now has to roll (9-4)=5s. Odds are he'll roll 2. That puts him
down to a serious. It doesn't matter if I had gotten a D++++, or a D. Under
vanilla SR2, he would have taken a S. With the variant rule, he would've had
to roll down a 9(d+1)D, needing a 6 (11-5). Odds are he only rolls one, and
down he falls. There IS a difference, a crucial one, when you are doing above
deadly damamge.

Rev

From:	"David M Girardot (Girardot, David)" <GIRARDOT@********.BITNET>
Subject:	deadly
Date:	Sun, 4 Apr 93 18:00:55 est

Message no. 9 Jason Carter sez:

>>>>>
You really are out to kill you players. With such high target numbers to
dodge attacks or even stage them down your doing tons of damage to them.
It's
hard enough to avoid getting killed in SRII and you've hit your players with
a
nasty one-two punch. First all their damage resistance test are affected by
wound status. This rule was notable dropped from SRII, probably because with
the new armor rules it made taking a wound just do deadly game balance wise.
Then you make it nearly impossible to reduce the damage with combat pool dice,

especial when they need them the most (against somebody really good with a
gun).

>>>>>

You misunderstand. The combat pool part really should be treated differently
then the body test part because a) cobat pool dice DO NOT stage down damage,
they knock out attacker successes directly and b) combat pool dice indicate
a "dodge". Now, my point is that how hard an attack is to dodge has nothing
to do with how big a caliber bullet is being fired.

It is not "nearly impossible" to reduce damage combat pool wise. Indeed,
this
is the easiest way to avoid a bullet (by dodging it).

--David

From:	Janne P R Jalkanen <jalkanen@*****.HUT.FI>
Subject:	Deadly +
Date:	Mon, 5 Apr 93 13:04:40 CET

Message no. 10 G'day.

The way our party deals with D+ damage is as follows:

Every damage level (== 2 successes) above Deadly damage gives the
character one box of overkill damage. This makes it possible to kill
with one (good) shot, so that no-one is able to repair the damage.

Example:

Joe the Samurai shoots at Miggy the Mage with his LMG loading explosive
bullets. He gives a nice 3-round burst (recoil is all compensated) getting
7 successes for 12D base damage. Miggy is wearing Long Coat, reducing
the damage level to 8. He tries to dodge with all his might (6 dice,
1 success.) and takes one right to his chest (2 dice-> 0 successes).
This gives Joe 6 (7-1) successes, making the damage up two notches
to a 12D+3, where the +3 stands for overkill boxes. Poor Miggy
gets three overkill boxes, which is more than his Body of two, so
the GM decides that Miggy's spine breaks nicely in 2n+1 pieces and his
heart becomes minced meat. (Or something else suitable).

Actually things like this seldom happen to the PC's themselves, it
is mostly the NPC's that get that kind of treatment. So it's not as
bad as it might seem.

Besides, that should get the PC's be really careful about firefights.

--
Janne Jalkanen !
jalkanen@*******.hut.fi ! Life is about learning the right moves.
-'Good Die!' !

From:	bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Subject:	Re: deadly
Date:	Mon, 5 Apr 93 17:55:45 CDT

Message no. 11 >>>>>[ I agree with David in the fact that Deadly damage is an issue
that isn't about to be immediately solved here because everyone has
a different feel for their game. Some people like to paly games in
which a street gang is a major threat to get tangled up in, simply due
to their numbers while others play games where street gangs really
aren't that big of a deal when pitted against the skill and expertise
of professional shadowrunners. Both types are fun to play.

All I am saying is that there can't be a right way one this
one, its just how people like their flavor to feel. I did enjoy looking
at all the different solutions to this, I must admit, there were more
than I expected. Cya all out on the streets of Seattle, and if I don't,
perhaps that is `cause some deadly damage got ya. =) ]<<<<<

-- CrossFire <05:52:43/04-05-54>

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