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Message no. 1
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Deadly wounds...
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 08:16:42 METDST
Ok, I got shot.

Now my character has a deadly (no phys damage overflow :) and is stuck
in a submarine base 280m deep.

There are a rat shaman with me, and she has a heal spell. Will it work?
Will my character manage to go back to his trideo productions? :)

Any help about deadly/magical healing/medikits is welcome...

Bye,Paolo
--
_________________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci marcucci@***.ts.astro.it
http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/home.html
Message no. 2
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds...
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 20:37:37 +1000
Paolo writes:

> Ok, I got shot.

Well, you did something wrong then :-) But if you make it out alive then it
wasn't a total failure :-)

> Now my character has a deadly (no phys damage overflow :) and is stuck
> in a submarine base 280m deep.
>
> There are a rat shaman with me, and she has a heal spell. Will it work?
> Will my character manage to go back to his trideo productions? :)

Well, the spell should work fine, the only limitations being if the shaman
has any geasa. Assuming you have an essense which makes a magical healing
spell possible of course. :-) As for the trideo production, well, if you
survive the wound, then you still have to get back home (and being trapped
in a submarine base 280m under the waves may make that a little difficult,
so may the reason you are there in the first place).

> Any help about deadly/magical healing/medikits is welcome...

If you have a screwed essense, then I hope there is somebody with a good
biotech down there, or that the shaman has a bit of karma spare... (Remember
that you can spend your karma to affect the shamans rolls, as long as the
rolls are affecting you)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
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Message no. 3
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds... (fwd)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 13:02:22 METDST
>
> Paolo writes:
>
> > Ok, I got shot.
>
> Well, you did something wrong then :-) But if you make it out alive then it
> wasn't a total failure :-)

Well, what do you do when a 6mt (meters, not feet) high troll with a
white scientist cloth start to screm "Intruders!"? :)

>
> > Now my character has a deadly (no phys damage overflow :) and is stuck
> > in a submarine base 280m deep.
> >
> > There are a rat shaman with me, and she has a heal spell. Will it work?
> > Will my character manage to go back to his trideo productions? :)
>
> Well, the spell should work fine, the only limitations being if the shaman
> has any geasa. Assuming you have an essense which makes a magical healing
> spell possible of course. :-) As for the trideo production, well, if you
> survive the wound, then you still have to get back home (and being trapped
> in a submarine base 280m under the waves may make that a little difficult,
> so may the reason you are there in the first place).

Hey, for the first time in my rpg life i have a 5.2 essence!
And no geasa for the shaman.

>
> > Any help about deadly/magical healing/medikits is welcome...
>
> If you have a screwed essense, then I hope there is somebody with a good
> biotech down there, or that the shaman has a bit of karma spare... (Remember
> that you can spend your karma to affect the shamans rolls, as long as the
> rolls are affecting you)
>
> --
> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

What karma? If I had any karma remaining, I didn't take a deadly!

(those damned maglocks.... they burn karma like popcorns...)

--
_________________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci marcucci@***.ts.astro.it
http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/home.html
Message no. 4
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds...
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:57:46 -0500
ONLY 280m? How depressing. All my underwater adventures are MUCH deeper
than that...*laughing his Official GM's Evil Laugh*

GP.
Message no. 5
From: Stuart Marsh <sam10@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Deadly wounds
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 15:54:52 +0000
I'm a tad confused on the subject of deadly wounds.
Say Sammie the street sam with an essence of 0 and a body of 6 gets blasted
by two bursts from an assult rifle and takes two serious wounds----
He then checks for cyberware dmagae from each shot, right...
When do you role on the table for permanant injuries?

Ok so hes on 2 boxes overflow with 40 minutes before he goes to the big
corperation in the sky... say Garth the hermetic magician janders up
Garth has treat 6, and casts treat on sammie getting 3 eights
Does this cure sammie to nine boxes?? Does this treat mean sammie doesn't
have to check for permanant injury?? If treat and heal can do this then whats
the point of stabalise spell, <grim pg.129>. Or would you say that treat
can't heal deadly wounds??

Can resist pain be cast before the mage takes damage
If it can then Garth the magician has basicaly imunity to the penalties of
a serious wound permanatly! < until he takes a serious and it heals>
Or should it be only able to work if cast after the wound is taken?

Also on question on another subject, do the ares preditor 1 and 2 use the
same specialization?

Thanks Cinder

Plus ca change, pluc c'est la meme chose.
Message no. 6
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 12:13:50 -0500
On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Stuart Marsh wrote:

> I'm a tad confused on the subject of deadly wounds.
> Say Sammie the street sam with an essence of 0 and a body of 6 gets blasted
> by two bursts from an assult rifle and takes two serious wounds----
> He then checks for cyberware dmagae from each shot, right...
> When do you role on the table for permanant injuries?
>
> Ok so hes on 2 boxes overflow with 40 minutes before he goes to the big
> corperation in the sky... say Garth the hermetic magician janders up
> Garth has treat 6, and casts treat on sammie getting 3 eights
> Does this cure sammie to nine boxes?? Does this treat mean sammie doesn't
> have to check for permanant injury?? If treat and heal can do this then whats
> the point of stabalise spell, <grim pg.129>. Or would you say that treat
> can't heal deadly wounds??
>
> Can resist pain be cast before the mage takes damage
> If it can then Garth the magician has basicaly imunity to the penalties of
> a serious wound permanatly! < until he takes a serious and it heals>
> Or should it be only able to work if cast after the wound is taken?
>
> Also on question on another subject, do the ares preditor 1 and 2 use the
> same specialization?
>
> Thanks Cinder
>
> Plus ca change, pluc c'est la meme chose.
>
Cinder

Yes it can be done, however remember that your mage must roll
drain 20 times(?) at a deadly force rating to do this. As for permant
injury, this happens when sammie takes the wound. Treat/heal cannot grow
limbs/organs back. Stabilize allows said mage to keep patient from dying
until Docwagon gets there. If they don't have Docwagon, then they
deserve to die. Yes resist pain can be cast but has to be sustained so,
your mage needs to roll 10's not 8's to heal the sam.

Yes in my world the Ares Predator 1 & 2 are to different kind of guns due
to the built in smartlink.

Angus Blackwatch the Scotish Troll
AKA Scott SPencer
sts100z@********.cc.odu.edu
Message no. 7
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 15:51:59 -0500
On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Scott Taylor Spencer wrote: [on the subject of
healing into overflow]

> Yes it can be done, however remember that your mage must roll
> drain 20 times(?) at a deadly force rating to do this.

Whoa! Where'd this one come from?

> As for permant injury, this happens when sammie takes the wound.

Exactly.

> Treat/heal cannot grow limbs/organs back. Stabilize allows said mage
> to keep patient from dying until Docwagon gets there.

Right again. Limb or organ loss is ugly and difficult to replace
without dipping even further into one's Essence (provided one has Essence
remaining, that is...). Attribute loss is far worse, as it is not only
ugly, but pretty much permanent. Ouch.

Marc
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 10:57:42 +0100
>Say Sammie the street sam with an essence of 0 and a body of 6 gets blasted
>by two bursts from an assult rifle and takes two serious wounds----
>He then checks for cyberware dmagae from each shot, right...

right. You roll 1D6-4 twice for the number of systems damaged.

>When do you role on the table for permanant injuries?

When he takes a Deadly wound. He took two Serious wounds, so that adds up to
D plus 2 boxes overflow -> he checks for permanent damage as described on
page 113 of SR2.

>Garth has treat 6, and casts treat on sammie getting 3 eights
>Does this cure sammie to nine boxes??

Yes. He removes three boxes of damage, so Sammie only has nine left and is
therefore concious again.

>Does this treat mean sammie doesn't
>have to check for permanant injury??

He had to check before the spell was cast, unless both the spell and
injuries happen at _exactly_ the same time. Rather unlikely, don't you think? :)

>If treat and heal can do this then whats
>the point of stabalise spell, <grim pg.129>. Or would you say that treat
>can't heal deadly wounds??

The only restriction on Treat is that it must be cast within an hour of the
wounds being inflicted. You can use Stabilize to, well, stabilize a patient
who could not be magically healed/treated -- remember, you can only
magically treat any given set of wounds ONCE.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is a full time job
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 9
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:36:29 +1000
Scott Taylor Spencer writes:

> Yes it can be done, however remember that your mage must roll
> drain 20 times(?)

I emphasise the "(?)". Just how did you come to that conculsion?

> Yes in my world the Ares Predator 1 & 2 are to different kind of guns due
> to the built in smartlink.

That's what I have it as too. Each weapon counts as a separate
specialisation, like it says in the book.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 10
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:26:15 -0500
On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Scott Taylor Spencer writes:
>
> > Yes it can be done, however remember that your mage must roll
> > drain 20 times(?)
>
> I emphasise the "(?)". Just how did you come to that conculsion?
>
~> > Yes in my world the Ares Predator 1 & 2 are to different kind of
guns > > to the built in smartlink.
>
> That's what I have it as too. Each weapon counts as a separate
> specialisation, like it says in the book.
>
> --
> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
>
> (GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
> E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
> b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
>
Ok,
It seems that I have been catching a lot of flack about the roll
drain 20 times thingy I mentioned. First let me say that it is not
incoceavable that I am wrong. Weirder things have happened.
Here is the logic that lead me to the now infamous conclusion.
When you look at the treat/heal spell it gives a base time to heal
chart. A deadly would has the base time of 20 turns. You can divide
your spell successes into the base time or apply it straight to boxes, or
break it up between the two. Assuming the mage in question has gone for
boxes and not time he has to sustain said spell for 20 turns. Thus
rolling drain once per turn (for ease of game play 1 break it up into
lots of five.) If I am wrong in this assumption then please explain to
me how healing should work.

Angus Blackwatch the Scotish Troll
AKA Scott Spencer
sts100z@********.cc.odu.edu
Message no. 11
From: Vincent Pellerin <Vincent.Pellerin@***.GMC.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 13:30:04 -0500
>Ok,
> It seems that I have been catching a lot of flack about the roll
>drain 20 times thingy I mentioned. First let me say that it is not
>incoceavable that I am wrong. Weirder things have happened.
> Here is the logic that lead me to the now infamous conclusion.
>When you look at the treat/heal spell it gives a base time to heal
>chart. A deadly would has the base time of 20 turns. You can divide
>your spell successes into the base time or apply it straight to boxes, or
>break it up between the two. Assuming the mage in question has gone for
>boxes and not time he has to sustain said spell for 20 turns. Thus
>rolling drain once per turn (for ease of game play 1 break it up into
>lots of five.) If I am wrong in this assumption then please explain to
>me how healing should work.
>
> Angus Blackwatch the Scotish Troll
>

In fact the rule is not how healing goes but as any sustained (in
this case permanent) spell goes. I dont remember seeing that you roll for
drain each turn. In my book it says that you roll ONCE for the spell : when
it take effect and then sustain it for the 20 turns. Right ?

Vince
Message no. 12
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 19:59:48 GMT
Aha, one of my favourite subjects; the deadly wound; one of those little
things I love to use to get players to try and avoid combat, rather
than solving every problem with it.


A couple of suggestions to make going down from wounds nastier;

i) The more overflow you take, the greater the likelihood of you
having something blown off (or removed later due to lack of
proper circulation, etc). +1 to the Bit's-Blown-Off TNo per
box or two of overflow.
ii) Having something in your system that coagulates the blood
faster than the body does naturally could be a really good
idea, or it could be a really bad idea. It may stop the red
stuff leaking onto the concrete, or it could stop it from
carrying oxygen up to the old grey matter.
When you're on the floor pumping; a 50/50 change of platelets
either reducing the TNo by -1, or increasing it by +1.
iii) Symbiotes are good, assuming you believe they work fast enough,
they can save your life when you're on the floor bleeding, or
at least extend it...
iv) Pain Editor's are bad, if you can't feel pain, then you're more
likely to move around, and the more likely you are to rupture
something else, alo; +1 TNo.

All these things should also be applied to the time it takes to bleed
an extra box when you're on the floor having a cardiac arrest;
Symbiotes, etc make it longer, pain editors make it shorter, and
platelets can go either way, depending on how the GM feels <Evil Grin>.

Modify the original 10 minutes per extra box to 10 minuts +/- the TNo
modifiers above.



BTW I suggest that each time the PC takes more damage after the deadly,
then they get a new roll for bit's blown off! Including when they bleed
that extra box, because as it stands, any reasonably experienced runner is
never going to lose a limb, and from the tone in the books, it seems
quite common. At least more common than those sick 'elective' individuals.


Query; isn't it the case that you can only have one _type_ of healing;
both magical and first-aid? That gives the Sammy something to think about.


Also, that box of damge due to platelets or trauma damper that saves you
from taking 10 boxes - you still get to make the bits-blown-off roll,
and in my games, that TD physical to mental, it comes back across to
physical after a bit, normally I give just enough time to drive to
hospital and run in the front door of casualty shouting "I'm dead, get
me a doctor".


Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 13
From: Vincent Pellerin <Vincent.Pellerin@***.GMC.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:50:44 -0500
P Ward writes
>
>Query; isn't it the case that you can only have one _type_ of healing;
>both magical and first-aid? That gives the Sammy something to think about.
>
>

I did'nt see anything like this in the rules but in our games we
have made some:
1-The first aid must be done before the heal or threat spell. If the magical
healing is used before, no first aid..

2-Only one spell can be used to heal, even by different mage (unless it
did'nt worked), one heal or threat, one shot.

Anyways the street sam of our group can't be healed by magick (Well almost,
0.05 essence and enought bioware to bring the T.N. of heal to 12).

Vince
Message no. 14
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 00:08:02 GMT
> A couple of suggestions to make going down from wounds nastier;

<various interesting rules re. bits of cyberware snipped>
<...>

Lynch, my merc PC, has a custom set of implants that consist of Kevlar
plies and encapsulated heparin wrapped around major organs. Not too much
Essence (0.25 in my game) and easy to do as long as you're being opened
up in a big way for something else.

No extra armour or body dice: but having a little extra protection, and
the assistance in stopping bleeding, is worth a -1 to his roll to
lose bits and pieces following a Deadly. It also doubles 'bleed time'
from 10 to 20 minutes.

He's never needed it, is the worst thing: no Deadlies since he's had
it fitted. But he certainly doesn't consider it wasted Essence.

It's not a hugely useful item to many runners, considering what else a 0.25
Essence (plus betaware, this system isn't beta) could buy you. But to
Lynch it's a real help.

<...>
> Query; isn't it the case that you can only have one _type_ of healing;
> both magical and first-aid? That gives the Sammy something to think about.

Yes, it does... Our PCs concentrate their energies on not getting shot, because
the days of SR1 "nine boxes Physical, magician snaps his fingers, and I'm
fine" are gone. My magical healing takes minutes instead of seconds,
longer for laser burns or gunshot wounds and shorter for melee wounds or
arrow wounds (it's a mana thing I do by instinct without any clear reason or
rule).

We use a lot of damage compensation, but then our Shadowrun combat tends to be
either long-range military firefights with relatively heavy weapons or close-
up John Woo-style gunfests. The hero usually gets shot two or three times and
doesn't really notice... Pain editors are out, though: very unpopular.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 15
From: Sean Sheridan <spsherid@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 00:50:27 -0600
>
>Modify the original 10 minutes per extra box to 10 minuts +/- the TNo
>modifiers above.

Just a thought. Doesn't ten minutes a box seem a liitle long? I mean an
average peron who gets plugged with 2 or 3 holes should die REAL fast, not
ten or twenty minutes later. I just can believe that if a person is gonna
last an hour(bod 6) that thet are really gona die. Well, maybe they will
but I still think the rule is a lttle lame. maybe five minutes a box, max.

>
>
>BTW I suggest that each time the PC takes more damage after the deadly,
>then they get a new roll for bit's blown off! Including when they bleed
>that extra box, because as it stands, any reasonably experienced runner is
>never going to lose a limb, and from the tone in the books, it seems
>quite common. At least more common than those sick 'elective' individuals.
>
Uh, my mage just got her arm ripped off by a mean ant queen. Nasty fragger...
anyways, no troll or orc is ever gonna loose a limb, but lesser beasts like
riggers, deckers, or mages are DEFINITLY gonna have to avoid those deadly
wounds.

>
>Query; isn't it the case that you can only have one _type_ of healing;
>both magical and first-aid? That gives the Sammy something to think about.
>


Umm, I think you can administer First Aid and then cast a healing spell on a
single set of wounds. But not the other way around.
Sean
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly wounds
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 11:57:40 +0100
>Assuming the mage in question has gone for
>boxes and not time he has to sustain said spell for 20 turns. Thus
>rolling drain once per turn (for ease of game play 1 break it up into
>lots of five.) If I am wrong in this assumption then please explain to
>me how healing should work.

I didn't think you'd have to roll against Drain once per turn -- it gets
ridiculous if you have to resists 3D every turn for 20 turns... I suppose
you also rule that your Magic pool loses the dice you spent on the Spell
Success Test until the spell is permanent?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I know what you think of me you never shut up
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Unofficially Nominated As Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 17
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 23:37:56 +1000
P Ward writes:

> A couple of suggestions to make going down from wounds nastier;

Erk! Aren't they bad enough already? I mean, if you get hit for a deadly
wound, things tend to be pretty suckful for you for a while.

> i) The more overflow you take, the greater the likelihood of you
> having something blown off (or removed later due to lack of
> proper circulation, etc). +1 to the Bit's-Blown-Off TNo per
> box or two of overflow.

This sounds fair enough actually, I kinda like the idea.

> ii) Having something in your system that coagulates the blood
> faster than the body does naturally could be a really good
> idea, or it could be a really bad idea. It may stop the red
> stuff leaking onto the concrete, or it could stop it from
> carrying oxygen up to the old grey matter.
> When you're on the floor pumping; a 50/50 change of platelets
> either reducing the TNo by -1, or increasing it by +1.

This too sounds good, the book mentions drawbacks for platelet factories,
and this would make for quite a good one.

> iii) Symbiotes are good, assuming you believe they work fast enough,
> they can save your life when you're on the floor bleeding, or
> at least extend it...

Hmm, symbiotes reduce the healing time don't they? I really don't think
they'd be effective at all in the time spans involved.

> iv) Pain Editor's are bad, if you can't feel pain, then you're more
> likely to move around, and the more likely you are to rupture
> something else, alo; +1 TNo.

But you aren't very likely to move around when you're unconcious due to
deadly wounds though.

> Modify the original 10 minutes per extra box to 10 minuts +/- the TNo
> modifiers above.

Good idea too.

But as Sean said, isn't 10 minutes rather a long time? Wouldn't an average
person who was hit with a deadly wound die in less than half an hour?
Perhaps 5 minutes or even less would be more appropriate.

> BTW I suggest that each time the PC takes more damage after the deadly,
> then they get a new roll for bit's blown off! Including when they bleed
> that extra box, because as it stands, any reasonably experienced runner is
> never going to lose a limb, and from the tone in the books, it seems
> quite common. At least more common than those sick 'elective' individuals.

I agree here. Characters almost never lose limb/eyes/ears/etc. In all my
time of playing the game, I've only ever seen one leg, one eye and one ear
lost. And I've never ever seen a stat point lost (I have, however, seen one
character lose a magic point, twice - can we say 'burn out'?). Suffering a
deadly wound isn't a problem if you have good essence and a magician nearby,
since the odds are against you losing body parts. Even if you have a low
essence, the magician will probably get you down to below deadly, so that
you can crawl away to find a hospital. As it is, limbs etc are rarely lost
as a result of deadly wounds, and I have yet to see a character "bleed" to
death.

> Query; isn't it the case that you can only have one _type_ of healing;
> both magical and first-aid? That gives the Sammy something to think about.

I always thought that too, until I actually read up on the rules and found
it wasn't true. You can perform First Aid _then_ a spell, but not the other
way around. Although one could easily make a house rule... <evil grin>

> and in my games, that TD physical to mental, it comes back across to
> physical after a bit, normally I give just enough time to drive to
> hospital and run in the front door of casualty shouting "I'm dead, get
> me a doctor".

<giggle> Rather humerous, but not something I'd do.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 18
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 09:46:22 -30000
On Fri, 24 Mar 1995, Sean Sheridan wrote:

> >
> >Modify the original 10 minutes per extra box to 10 minuts +/- the TNo
> >modifiers above.
>
> Just a thought. Doesn't ten minutes a box seem a liitle long? I mean an
> average peron who gets plugged with 2 or 3 holes should die REAL fast, not
> ten or twenty minutes later. I just can believe that if a person is gonna
> last an hour(bod 6) that thet are really gona die. Well, maybe they will
> but I still think the rule is a lttle lame. maybe five minutes a box, max.

Recently, I've been using a value of 1 minute per box. However, I'm not
sure I like that either. The problem is, there are wounds that will kill
in minutes, and there are wounds that will kill in tens of minutes, and
there are wounds that will kill in hours, and what kind of wound it is
really doesn't depend on how physically tough you are. Also, first aid
isn't an all or nothing thing. The way the rules are right now, you
either stabilize someone, or you don't. But RL just isn't like that.
You get all kinds of gradiations, from being unable to lock down the
gusher from the femoral artery that was just punctured (which will lead
to death in a handful of minutes), through binding the ribs that were
broken so they don't flop loose and do more damage, but be unable to stop
the slow internal bleeding into the lungs(which will kill in tens of
minutes to hours), to being able to bandage the wound left when a 7.62
round keyholed through your arm, ripping up flesh, but not hitting the
bone(unlikely to kill directly). Another factor in the equation is what
kind of trauma was it. In an era of light personal body armor, a bullet
is not always going to penentrate. What kind of wounds does the guy
wearing an armor jacket have when he goes to deadly due to 10 light
wounds? 4 medium wounds? I see that type of wound either being a bullet
that hit in the armor and didn't penentrate (bruising damage, potentially
fracturing a bone) to a relatively superficial leg hit, to a grazing
scalp wound. An accumulation of these wounds aren't going to kill
someone very quickly, whereas this same person who went down due to a
single deadly wound probably caught the golden BB where the armor dodn't
cover on the torso (armpit, just under ribcage, neck) or got ripped in
the leg bad(broken femur, major leg artery hit, etc.). This kind of
wound is likely to kill quickly.

Another thing that bothers me is that there is no way to have a disabled
limb and still be consious under the basic rules. Yes, I know that SRII
damage is abstract, but it is necessary to know whether or not a limb has
been disabled. The way I do things, I use the battletech hit location
table (unless circumstances dictate otherwise) as an aid in determining
where the attack struck. If a wound that results in serious damage level
was dealt to a limb-disabling location (the limb itself, or possibly the
associated torso(1-2 arm disabled, 3-4 leg disabled, 5-6 no other
result)) the limb is useless until second aid is applied. (First aid
cannot re-enable a limb). (No, the head is not counted as a limb or
subject to being disabled!)
(The battletech hit table is pretty simple, at least from the front:
2D6 and read result on this table:
2:Center torso (critical)(except I don't usually have critical hits)
3- 4:Right Arm
5:Right Leg
6:Right Torso
7:Center Torso
8:Left torso
9:Left Leg
10-11:Left Arm
12:Head

I use this table for determining the actual location the bullet hit, and
whether or not a limb was diabled. The location is determined AFTER the
severity of the hit is guaged.)


Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it happens."
Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."
Message no. 19
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 10:13:31 -30000
On Fri, 24 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> P Ward writes:
>
> > A couple of suggestions to make going down from wounds nastier;

[those ideas snipped]

>
> But as Sean said, isn't 10 minutes rather a long time? Wouldn't an average
> person who was hit with a deadly wound die in less than half an hour?
> Perhaps 5 minutes or even less would be more appropriate.

Depends on the wound, see my previous post on the subject

>
> > BTW I suggest that each time the PC takes more damage after the deadly,
> > then they get a new roll for bit's blown off! Including when they bleed
> > that extra box, because as it stands, any reasonably experienced runner is
> > never going to lose a limb, and from the tone in the books, it seems
> > quite common. At least more common than those sick 'elective' individuals.
>
> I agree here. Characters almost never lose limb/eyes/ears/etc. In all my
> time of playing the game, I've only ever seen one leg, one eye and one ear
> lost. And I've never ever seen a stat point lost (I have, however, seen one
> character lose a magic point, twice - can we say 'burn out'?). Suffering a
> deadly wound isn't a problem if you have good essence and a magician nearby,
> since the odds are against you losing body parts. Even if you have a low
> essence, the magician will probably get you down to below deadly, so that
> you can crawl away to find a hospital. As it is, limbs etc are rarely lost
> as a result of deadly wounds, and I have yet to see a character "bleed" to
> death.

I dunno, I've had a PC lose stat points, another one get his ear blown
off (This was hilariously funny, as the team was running Harlequin:Past
at the time, and didn't know that there were ears in the cryocase they
were carrying.... And the character wanted to put HIS in the cryo case to
save it:-). Two different ones have lost arms. A Body(4) test isn't a
picnic, especially since it is NATURAL body, which I haven't found
ANYTHING that adds to it. Bump it up to a Body (6) for use of a trauma
patch, and I don't see ANYONE breezing through that test. And I *haven't*
seen anyone breeze that test:-) I don't try to kill PC's (quite the
opposite - I have only had one PC die, and that was due to inter-party
conflict), but I do make their lives painful:-)

>
> > Query; isn't it the case that you can only have one _type_ of healing;
> > both magical and first-aid? That gives the Sammy something to think about.
>
> I always thought that too, until I actually read up on the rules and found
> it wasn't true. You can perform First Aid _then_ a spell, but not the other
> way around. Although one could easily make a house rule... <evil grin>

Remember, first aid takes *time*, it's not something that can be done in
the middle of a run..... Whereas magical healing *can*. (Although it's
not a good idea.....)

>
> > and in my games, that TD physical to mental, it comes back across to
> > physical after a bit, normally I give just enough time to drive to
> > hospital and run in the front door of casualty shouting "I'm dead, get
> > me a doctor".

I thought about it, and realized that that's not the case. A trauma
damper cuts down on the "shock" rating of the injury. IE, it keeps you
from keeling over in shock from a wound. Say someone with a TD takes a
single wound of Deadly rating. (Now this depends on what your view of a
deadly wound is. I view it as a crippling wound that will kill you
shortly, but it is not instantly fatal. That is a Deadly+(body) overflow)
Say something like a good solid hit to the plaston of the character's
body armor. Doesn't penentrate, but breaks a number of ribs. Instead of
dropping from the body going into shock due to massive blunt trauma, the
character is still conscious, but heavily damaged. (Sorry, short house
rule: All wounds must be stabilized, else they "bleed" and the wounded
character collects another box of damage every 5 minutes or so). The
shift to mental represents the slowing down due to "natural" painkillers
circulating in the system.

> Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
^^^^^^^^^<snicker>^^^^^^^

Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it happens."
Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."
Message no. 20
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 11:25:49 +1000
Quicksilver writes:

> Recently, I've been using a value of 1 minute per box. However, I'm not
> sure I like that either.
>
> [Explanation of various degrees of wounding and the expected time of
> survival]

Aha I see what you mean now. I assume you haven't actually resolved the
problem to your satisfaction yet? From what you said, to resolve it well
would require a hefty remodelling of the SR damage and even the SR combat
systems. I guess FASAs 10 minds per box is a fairly good generalisation and
average on the whole. For ease of game play and the good old "abstraction"
of the wounds, it would seem to be fairly appropriate.

> Another thing that bothers me is that there is no way to have a disabled
> limb and still be consious under the basic rules.

This is true. I always used to ignore this little problem, and say that
legs/arms were not disabled from "normal" combat unless somebody actually
aimed a shot at someones arm/leg etc, in which case if they did damage (mod
or serious, depending on how I was feeling at the time), then the limb could
be disabled. Not terribly accurate, but it works well enough.

> The way I do things, I use the battletech hit location table

Hmm, interesting possibility.

> I use this table for determining the actual location the bullet hit, and
> whether or not a limb was diabled. The location is determined AFTER the
> severity of the hit is guaged.)

So you still use the "probablity" SR armour values, even though you have a
hit location system? That sounds kinda odd to me. Why not determine the hit
location first, then determine damage (that way you get to calculate the
apprpriate armour values). You'd have to go through and determine which
parts of the body each type of armour covered, but that's not terribly
difficult.

But I don't really think a hit location is very appropriate or neccessary
for SR, as it would change things rather drastically from what they are. It
also slows things down a little, and I really don't think it is warranted.
Only on a few occasions have I ever thought that a hit location system for
SR would be nice, normally the abstracted system works fine for me (besides,
what Hollywood type hero ever has limbs disabled? And that is what SR
runners are more or less sposed to be like). But I guess if you want a
nastier, less cinematic game, then a hit location sysem would work well. (I
played - bugger me, I can't rememebr the name of it - anyway, it's set in
1999 and your characters are employees of an international private security
organisation, at a Con last year. It has a hit location system, and bleeding
etc rules, and is _very_ deadly. We shot some guy in the chest, bodged our
hit roll, still hit him in the kidney, and killed him instantly. From then
on were were terribly scared and whenever any bad guys pointed a gun in our
direction we all went "Oh, Shit!" and dived for cover and pulled straws to
see who would be the sucker to pop up and shoot at him. Not very cinematic.
True to life perhaps, but not resembling Hollywood in the slightest. And SR
is supposed to be a cinemantic, Hollywood style game.)

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 12:12:35 +0100
>Recently, I've been using a value of 1 minute per box. However, I'm not
>sure I like that either. The problem is, there are wounds that will kill
>in minutes, and there are wounds that will kill in tens of minutes, and
>there are wounds that will kill in hours

Then roll 1D6 --use the Rule of Six if you feel generous-- and use that as
the time it takes for the next box to fill. Once that time is up, roll
another 1D6, etc.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Our little group has always been and always will until the end
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One of Two Unofficial Shadowrun Gurus :)
Message no. 22
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 14:27:50 +0100
> since the odds are against you losing body parts. Even if you have a low
> essence, the magician will probably get you down to below deadly, so that
> you can crawl away to find a hospital. As it is, limbs etc are rarely lost
> as a result of deadly wounds, and I have yet to see a character "bleed" to
> death.

I have always used a house rule giving all players a number of overflow
boxes equall to their body. If they got enough damage to used all their
overflow boxes it meant by-by for them :) It helps put the fear of god
(or snipers :) in them :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
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Message no. 23
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 00:26:12 +1000
Quicksilver writes:

> A Body(4) test isn't a picnic, especially since it is NATURAL body, which
> I haven't found ANYTHING that adds to it. Bump it up to a Body (6) for use
> of a trauma patch, and I don't see ANYONE breezing through that test. And I
> *haven't* seen anyone breeze that test:-) I don't try to kill PC's (quite the
> opposite - I have only had one PC die, and that was due to inter-party
> conflict), but I do make their lives painful:-)

While I agree with you on the last bit (I too make efforts to keep
characters alive, rather than to geek them), I do think a Body test target
number 4 is pitifully easy. You only need a Body of 4 to get (on average)
the required two successes to get away from a Deadly wound scott free. Most
runners I know have 4 Body minimum (yes, even the magicians - they're not
stupid). And when one includes karma re-rolls and auto-successes (this is
one of the _best_ reasons to spend karma), then the chances of a character
losing a limb or a stat point are very low indeed. If a trauma patch is used
on the other hand... (one of my players carries a few of these for the explicit
purpose of whacking them on the other players characters if they suffer
deadly wounds. And when they complain that if he does they'll lose a leg he
backs up his actions with the argument "Well, if I didn't, you'd be dead".
[He's one of the few organ loses in my game - he lost an eye once, and he has
a troll for a character, talk about unlucky rolling]. It's a bit of a
bastard thing to do, but to date he's only got the chance to do it once (the
ear loss I memtioned before), and it is pretty funny when players do those
kind of nasty things to each other :-)).

> Remember, first aid takes *time*, it's not something that can be done in
> the middle of a run..... Whereas magical healing *can*. (Although it's
> not a good idea.....)

Well, if you look at most of the FASA modules, you'll find appreciable time
gaps between most of the sections. Plenty of time for first aid. Also,
things tend to suck for a player whos character has a serious wound, he
can't hit shit, he can't do shit and he has to be scared shit of taking
anymore wounds and dying, so I tend to go a little easy on the team when
they get shot to the shithouse and give them a chance to heal up before the
next major likely combat [but not always <evil GM grin>].

> short house rule: All wounds must be stabilized, else they "bleed" and the
> wounded character collects another box of damage every 5 minutes or so).

Sounds fair enough to me. What kind of action/roll do you require for
'stabilisation'? I guess Light wounds would be excluded from the bleeding
rules.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 24
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 11:14:52 +1000
A nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ named Gurth writes:

> >Recently, I've been using a value of 1 minute per box. However, I'm not
> >sure I like that either. The problem is, there are wounds that will kill
> >in minutes, and there are wounds that will kill in tens of minutes, and
> >there are wounds that will kill in hours
>
> Then roll 1D6 --use the Rule of Six if you feel generous-- and use that as
> the time it takes for the next box to fill. Once that time is up, roll
> another 1D6, etc.

Sounds pretty nifty actually. What do you think Quicksilver?

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 25
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 02:22:45 -30000
On Sun, 26 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:
> Quicksilver writes:
>
> > short house rule: All wounds must be stabilized, else they "bleed" and
the
> > wounded character collects another box of damage every 5 minutes or so).
>
> Sounds fair enough to me. What kind of action/roll do you require for
> 'stabilisation'? I guess Light wounds would be excluded from the bleeding
> rules.
First Aid(Biotech)/Stabilization Spell. And Light wounds do bleed. It's
just relatively easy to stop them.

Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it
happens." Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."
Message no. 26
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 19:28:32 +1000
Quicksilver writes:

> > Sounds fair enough to me. What kind of action/roll do you require for
> > 'stabilisation'? I guess Light wounds would be excluded from the bleeding
> > rules.
>
> First Aid(Biotech)/Stabilization Spell. And Light wounds do bleed. It's
> just relatively easy to stop them.

Aha, so what kind of target numbers and times do you suggest? (Also, isn't
the Stabilise spell only for Deadly wounds?) Do you have a spell similar to
"Stop Bleeding"? ie, less drain and less time than a Treat or Heal, but it
only stops further damage, doesn't heal the wound.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 13:16:45 +0200
> I have always used a house rule giving all players a number of overflow
>boxes equall to their body. If they got enough damage to used all their
>overflow boxes it meant by-by for them :) It helps put the fear of god
>(or snipers :) in them :)

Err, isn't this simply the official FASA rule on overflow damage?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Our little group has always been and always will until the end
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One of Two Unofficial Shadowrun Gurus :)
Message no. 28
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 14:36:54 +0200
> > I have always used a house rule giving all players a number of overflow
> >boxes equall to their body. If they got enough damage to used all their
> >overflow boxes it meant by-by for them :) It helps put the fear of god
> >(or snipers :) in them :)
>
> Err, isn't this simply the official FASA rule on overflow damage?

No I think that according to the official rules (puting FoF aside) its
impossible for a char to get killed with one shot. But then its been
a really long time since I read that part of the rules.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 11:39:39 +0200
> No I think that according to the official rules (puting FoF aside) its
>impossible for a char to get killed with one shot. But then its been
>a really long time since I read that part of the rules.

Could you try to clarify your house rule a bit? Under FASA rules (not using
FOF), you can't kill someone with a single shot, but if I understand your
rule correctly, you can't with that either... all you said was that
characters in your game have a number of overflow boxes equal to their Body.

BTW (listen up, all you folks in my PBEM) I use a house rule that says that,
for every 2 successes that would stage a wound over Deadly, you start at
Light again and apply that damage to overflow (for a Physical wound), or to
the Physical track (for a Stun wound).


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end
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Message no. 30
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 11:56:19 BST
Hah-Hah-Hah, I'm back for mine own opionions on Deadly's;

Damion mentioned
<bleed to death>

I've seen one character bleed to death; he had 10 minutes to get
stailised, unfortunately, the rest of the team took off before the
star arrive, and he was carried (literally) out by a retarded troll
sammy, who took him back to his apartment and waited fior him to
get back up <grin>.

The simplest way of dealing with woundin effects on limbs less severe
than outright amputation is a _sort-of_ seperate damage track, I've
been using this for a while because I allow called-shot to body area's.


Quicksilver wrote
<some gross stuff on actual wounds>

You take a hit in the arm - arm takes damage at the normal level due
to the rolls, etc. Your overall condition monitor is set at one level
less; an arm's not as important as your torso, if it was the head, then
I'd set it at one level higher - the head is rather vital.

Your TNo penalties are based on the overall monitor, unless you use the
arm/whatever, then it's set at that level, hence head wounds are quite
nasty.

If you take a deadly to the limb, it's disabled, and subject to it's
own personal Bits-Blown-off roll (tadaahhhh).


We don't bother writing it down or making a big fuss about it, we
just remember it and use it for role-playing effect.


Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack

And no, I don't count a deadly head-shot as an automatic kill, I
still use body overflow for it.
Message no. 31
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 15:09:54 +0200
> > No I think that according to the official rules (puting FoF aside) its
> >impossible for a char to get killed with one shot. But then its been
> >a really long time since I read that part of the rules.

> Could you try to clarify your house rule a bit? Under FASA rules (not using
> FOF), you can't kill someone with a single shot, but if I understand your
> rule correctly, you can't with that either... all you said was that
> characters in your game have a number of overflow boxes equal to their Body.

Well I figure that if a player runs out of overflow boxes he's dead.
This means that say a troll named Wally who has a body of 9 can take a deadly
wound and 9 boxes of overflow damage before he dies, if he get 10 boxes of
overflow he dies instantly.

> BTW (listen up, all you folks in my PBEM) I use a house rule that says that,
> for every 2 successes that would stage a wound over Deadly, you start at
> Light again and apply that damage to overflow (for a Physical wound), or to
> the Physical track (for a Stun wound).

So this means that each box of overflow costs 2 successes right ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 32
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 23:53:00 +1000
P Ward writes:

> You take a hit in the arm - arm takes damage at the normal level due
> to the rolls, etc. Your overall condition monitor is set at one level
> less; an arm's not as important as your torso, if it was the head, then
> I'd set it at one level higher - the head is rather vital.

It'd get a little more complex, but I can see that it would work. You could
also have arm/leg shots stage at 3 per wound level, and head shots stage at
1 per wound level (like SRI if you've used that antiquated game system).

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 33
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 23:58:01 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> Well I figure that if a player runs out of overflow boxes he's dead.
> This means that say a troll named Wally who has a body of 9 can take a deadly
> wound and 9 boxes of overflow damage before he dies, if he get 10 boxes of
> overflow he dies instantly.

This is the normal SRII rule. No such rule existed in SRI (the time it took
you to die could be anything, you got to make a roll once someone treated
you, with a TN equal to the number of minutes you were down and out. If you
were really lukcy, you could get back up half an hour later [if you could
roll a 30]).

> > BTW (listen up, all you folks in my PBEM) I use a house rule that says that,
> > for every 2 successes that would stage a wound over Deadly, you start at
> > Light again and apply that damage to overflow (for a Physical wound), or to
> > the Physical track (for a Stun wound).
>
> So this means that each box of overflow costs 2 successes right ?

It means that if the attacker scores one more success than his victim, then
nothing happens. 2 and the victim has an extra light wound assesed to his
damage track (for 11 boxes total). 4 and he gets a moderate wound (13 total).
6 and he cops an extra serious (16 boxes total), and 8 extra will give the
poor sod two deadly wounds (he'd better be a troll with a high high bod to
survive that, 20 damage boxes in one hit). I guess if you scored 10 then you
would start again, for 21 boxes.

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 34
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 15:01:56 BST
Damion said
<some stuff about Staging>

Argghhh :-)

When SRI came out, I liked the idea of the staging rules. By the time
I'd runa few adventures, they began to get on my nerves. It was that
extra bit to remember.

Different staging rules for body and appendages makes sense, and I
read the original version of it when we had called shots. But personally
I won't be using it, to much stuff to remember.


After all, I'm the only person in the group with a memory good enough to
remember the last adventure, some of the players don't even remember the
last session (I tell them, write it down, you're not getting any help.
do they listen? Oh well, time for a few more executions....).

Mine's nice and simple, complicated is for the plots.


My Real gripe? No one cares for cause and effect, it's enough for them
to know they hve the PC the evil scientist kidnapped back again, they
don't care why, they don't care that he got away (???). I really figured
that that mission would make them more aware of cause and effect...


Drek, Why am I ranting here, it's time to go and kill them some more until
they take notice. My apologies to anyone who read this far down.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
With help from Locked-Up-Screaming
Message no. 35
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 16:06:55 +0200
> > Well I figure that if a player runs out of overflow boxes he's dead.
> > This means that say a troll named Wally who has a body of 9 can take a deadly
> > wound and 9 boxes of overflow damage before he dies, if he get 10 boxes of
> > overflow he dies instantly.
>
> This is the normal SRII rule. No such rule existed in SRI (the time it took
> you to die could be anything, you got to make a roll once someone treated
> you, with a TN equal to the number of minutes you were down and out. If you
> were really lukcy, you could get back up half an hour later [if you could
> roll a 30]).

So this means I am using the vanila SR rule ? :) Whoa !!!

> > > BTW (listen up, all you folks in my PBEM) I use a house rule that says
that,
> > > for every 2 successes that would stage a wound over Deadly, you start at
> > > Light again and apply that damage to overflow (for a Physical wound), or to
> > > the Physical track (for a Stun wound).
> >
> > So this means that each box of overflow costs 2 successes right ?
>
> It means that if the attacker scores one more success than his victim, then
> nothing happens. 2 and the victim has an extra light wound assesed to his
> damage track (for 11 boxes total). 4 and he gets a moderate wound (13 total).
> 6 and he cops an extra serious (16 boxes total), and 8 extra will give the
> poor sod two deadly wounds (he'd better be a troll with a high high bod to
> survive that, 20 damage boxes in one hit). I guess if you scored 10 then you
> would start again, for 21 boxes.

Yes, but who gives a shit if he has an extra light wound or not when he
is already unconsious and dieing? Or does this mean that you dont fall down
after the first deadly wound? As I see it the only practicall meaning is that
overflow no longer costs one success, but two instead.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 36
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:56:43 +1000
P Ward writes:

> Different staging rules for body and appendages makes sense, and I
> read the original version of it when we had called shots. But personally
> I won't be using it, to much stuff to remember.

I agree, it gets a little complex. I use neither separate damage tracks, nor
alternate stagings for different locations.

> My Real gripe? No one cares for cause and effect, it's enough for them
> to know they hve the PC the evil scientist kidnapped back again, they
> don't care why, they don't care that he got away (???). I really figured
> that that mission would make them more aware of cause and effect...

Your PCs don't care that the big baddy got away at the end of the module?
Gee, you're lucky. :-) Mine often do things such as "mash their brains" (a
favourite quote), to ensure that no nasty NPCs can come back to haunt them
:-( One of my players has Blackwings head in his freezer (from Dragon Hunt).
Rather humerous, but it does make things a little difficult to use that
particular NPC again in a future adventure.

> Drek, Why am I ranting here, it's time to go and kill them some more until
> they take notice. My apologies to anyone who read this far down.

He he he.

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 37
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:49:49 +1000
Philip Hayward writes:

> Why so complicated? we just have a one to one ratio between successes and
> boxes. So each success after a deadly wound is one more box. There is
> no reason why the extra boxes per two success should fluctuate up and
> down so - 8-10 extra is an extra 4 while 10-12 is an extra one?

Different people, different tastes. I myself use the rule from FoF, not the
one I described above.

------------
Jani writes:

> Yes, but who gives a shit if he has an extra light wound or not when he
> is already unconsious and dieing? Or does this mean that you dont fall down
> after the first deadly wound? As I see it the only practicall meaning is that
> overflow no longer costs one success, but two instead.

Not exaclty, but the cost is different than by the vanilla FoF rule, yes.
The relevence of it is that since characters have a maximum overfow equal to
their Body, then it does make a difference if you are at Deadly and
unconcious and bleeding, or at Deadly plus 6 overflow and unconcious and
bleeding (or straight dead, if your Body is 5 or less).

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 12:12:41 +0200
>This means that say a troll named Wally who has a body of 9 can take a deadly
>wound and 9 boxes of overflow damage before he dies, if he get 10 boxes of
>overflow he dies instantly.

I still don't see the difference between your house rule and FASA's rule...

> So this means that each box of overflow costs 2 successes right ?

No, it means that, say Wally takes a blast from a 9S shotgun with 6
successes. Wally frags up his resistance test, so he still has 6 sucs
against him. The first two stage it up to Deadly, and under FASA rules it's
end there, even when using the Overflow rules from FOF. Under my rules, the
first two "left over" successes give him a Light, and the second two crank
it up to Moderate. Once he reaches 10 boxes of Overflow, his chums had
better call a street doc to see how much he'll pay them for the lump of
troll meat they've got on their hands.
Why do you think that blond went down so fast, hm?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end
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Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 12:12:44 +0200
> Yes, but who gives a shit if he has an extra light wound or not when he
>is already unconsious and dieing? Or does this mean that you dont fall down
>after the first deadly wound? As I see it the only practicall meaning is that
>overflow no longer costs one success, but two instead.

If Wally'd take two Deadly wounds, he wouldn't get up anymore. The first D
would knock him out already (it's Physical, BTW), and the second would take
him to 10 boxes of Overflow. If he'd take a Moderate overflow wound, he's
only have 60 minutes left to die, not 90...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 40
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:35:17 +0200
> I still don't see the difference between your house rule and FASA's rule...

Then I guess it aint a house rule :)

> > So this means that each box of overflow costs 2 successes right ?
> No, it means that, say Wally takes a blast from a 9S shotgun with 6
> successes. Wally frags up his resistance test, so he still has 6 sucs
> against him. The first two stage it up to Deadly, and under FASA rules it's
> end there, even when using the Overflow rules from FOF. Under my rules, the
> first two "left over" successes give him a Light, and the second two crank
> it up to Moderate.

Does this mean that you dont drop unconsious after your "first" deadly wound?
Or does it mean that you got this second condition monitor instead of overflow
boxes ?

> Once he reaches 10 boxes of Overflow, his chums had
> better call a street doc to see how much he'll pay them for the lump of
> troll meat they've got on their hands.
> Why do you think that blond went down so fast, hm?

You mean she was dead ? Woa, I though I did a deadly stun and a medium
physical :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 41
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:38:02 +0200
> If Wally'd take two Deadly wounds, he wouldn't get up anymore. The first D
> would knock him out already (it's Physical, BTW), and the second would take
> him to 10 boxes of Overflow. If he'd take a Moderate overflow wound, he's
> only have 60 minutes left to die, not 90...

ok I get it now :)

--
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Message no. 42
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 18:03:23 -0500
On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:[pn the subject of Gurth's house
rules on overflow damage...]

> Does this mean that you dont drop unconsious after your "first"
> deadly wound? Or does it mean that you got this second condition
> monitor instead of overflow boxes ?

I think I can answer this one as I use pretty much the same rule
in my game (had to do something before FoF came out, right?).
You still have overflow boxes, but they get used up slightly
differently. Instead of filling one box of overflow for every two
successes remaining after the wound has been staged to a deadly wound (as
in FoF), you simply start tacking on wound levels starting with Light
again. So if I shot you with a Panther Assault Cannon and got a net of
four successes on you, I would do base Deadly damage, plus the extra four
successes would stage the damage up to Moderate-over-Deadly. Thus, you
would take 13 boxes worth of damage in a single, whopping, outrageous
hit. Two more successes would stage it up again, for a
Serious-over-Deadly, or 16 boxes in a single hit.
But the actual amount of physical overflow boxes have not
changed. You still only have as many as you have points of Body. If you
had a Body of three or lower, you would be slain instantly. And I mean
*slain*. No healing magic or prompt medical attention will help you.
Your guts gut flew into the next county unaccompanied by the rest of your
body. Or maybe your head got vaporized. Whatever.
However, if you had a Body of 4 or higher, you would be
unconscious but still mostly salvageable. But you can still bleed to
death as per the normal Physical Overflow rules. Thus, with a Body of 4,
you would have ten minutes to get medical attention or magical treatment,
or your body's processes would be stopped beyond any hope of restart,
i.e., start cranking out a new character.
Note that this rule can be heinous. It also makes automatic
weapons just hateful. Consider a minigun (base 7S) firing all 15 rounds
into a target. Every 3 rounds that hit stage the damage up another
level. With 15 rounds and the potential to stage up *five* times, the
Vindicator can give 20 boxes worth of damage *on a tie!* (which goes in
favor of the attacker, remember). Nasty. But then again, so is taking
15 rounds in rapid succession from a minigun. Face it, you're toast.
This rule just reflects that fact.
I can guarantee that it will put the fear of God (and automatic
weapons and snipers) into your players. Manabolt gets fun too. "Eight
successes net? His head explodes a la 'Scanners'." It also makes your
players think up new and intriguing ways to accomplish their goals (other
than getting into a rabid gunfight with everyone they meet).

Marc
Message no. 43
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:10:29 +1000
The other nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ writes:

> I still don't see the difference between your house rule and FASA's rule...

In their rules, for each success you get which exceeds Deadly, you do one
box of overflow. (Right guys?)

In FASAs rules, iff (if and only if you you mathematically challenged people
:-)) the Power of the weapon exceeds twice the victims Body can you actually
do overflow damage to them from a single hit. And FASA has it that you
need two successes to give one box of overflow damage.

Makes their rules rather nasty in comparison eh?

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 44
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:47:20 +0200
> Does this mean that you dont drop unconsious after your "first" deadly
wound?
>Or does it mean that you got this second condition monitor instead of overflow
>boxes ?

No, you do go unconcious, it's just that you receive one, three, six, or ten
Overflow boxes as well. Ain't that nice? :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 45
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:47:35 +0200
Shadowrun Guru Damion wrote:

>In their rules, for each success you get which exceeds Deadly, you do one
>box of overflow. (Right guys?)

In my rules, no. I played with an idea similar to that one, but every two
successes did an extra box of damage -- four too many successes gave you two
boxes overflow. I didn't use it, but settled on starting at Light all over
again, so the four successes give you _three_ boxes overflow and... I think
I'm repeating myself here :)

>In FASAs rules, iff (if and only if you you mathematically challenged people
>:-)) the Power of the weapon exceeds twice the victims Body can you actually
>do overflow damage to them from a single hit. And FASA has it that you
>need two successes to give one box of overflow damage.

Exactly. And in that way it gets nearly impossible to even kill someone with
a Body of 3 in one shot. You'd need a weapon with a Power of 7 (granted,
most people have those), and a load of successes. Never mind the human sam
with a Body of 12...

>Makes their rules rather nasty in comparison eh?

That's the point :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 46
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:23:35 BST
Lots of people said:

<the same thing, then argued about it>

Then Gurth said:

> >In FASAs rules, iff (if and only if you you mathematically challenged people
> >:-)) the Power of the weapon exceeds twice the victims Body can you actually
> >do overflow damage to them from a single hit. And FASA has it that you
> >need two successes to give one box of overflow damage.

> Exactly. And in that way it gets nearly impossible to even kill someone with
> a Body of 3 in one shot. You'd need a weapon with a Power of 7 (granted,
> most people have those), and a load of successes. Never mind the human sam
> with a Body of 12...

heh heh, yeah, damn those Body-16 Troll Sammies.


It's impossible to _kill_ them straight out, but you can put them down on
the floor and in dire need of medical attention, and if they're on their own...

Use three round bursts and fully automatic weapons, I believe it's the power
of the attack for overdamage (as opposed to the power of the weapon for
damaging barriers), so autofire's a real killer, add XX ammo, and you've got
most people. <Grin>

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack).
Message no. 47
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 16:28:15 +0200
> favor of the attacker, remember). Nasty. But then again, so is taking
> 15 rounds in rapid succession from a minigun. Face it, you're toast.
> This rule just reflects that fact.

So the only difference from the vanilla rules is that it gives you
something to do with the extra damage staged above deadly ? BTW your
post helped me realise how my house rules differs from the valilla one
I directly translate extra succeses to overflow (not in a ratio of 2 to 1).

--
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Message no. 48
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:08:33 +0200
> > Does this mean that you dont drop unconsious after your "first"
deadly wound?
> >Or does it mean that you got this second condition monitor instead of overflow
> >boxes ?
>
> No, you do go unconcious, it's just that you receive one, three, six, or ten
> Overflow boxes as well. Ain't that nice? :)

Oh ok, so you can only get either one, three, six or ten overflow boxes.
Ok I get it - and BTW my house rules sez that each extra success counts as
one box and the power of the weapon is irrelevant. This means that if a kido
with a light pistol takes a pot-shot at you coming out of that fancy club
were no armor is allowed you better pay attention and duck or be a troll
with lotsa body. A 6M bullet and 6 successes gives you a Deadly wound and
2 overflow.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 49
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds -Reply
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:24:20 -0700
I have two comments about this whole Deadly Wounds diatribe.

1) Why is it so necessary to absolutively KILL-ERADICATE an individual
with one bullet? There are a plethora of other means of damaging that
FASA comments the GM should by fiat state ANIHILATION. This includes
belongings, foci, weapons, etc., not just body parts. For those elemental
effect type methods of destruction, there is additional responsive
damage, if you really want to be nasty, ie, gosh, I guess you also
weakened the structure of the building and it collapses, etc.

2) With SA fire, the first shot does 10 boxes, the second shot does 10
boxes. Yes, I guess for those trolls and others with excessive body
stats they will need a third shot. Big deal. Anything with a Body over 10
is going to be a magnate for bullets, grenades, incendiaries, spells, and
vehicle collisions anyway, at least in my game. With regards to real time,
the body will not have had a chance to hit the ground yet. I suppose that
is what dead on your feet refers to.

I generally have more trouble trying to keep PC's alive.
Message no. 50
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Deadly Wounds -Reply
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:25:01 +0200
>1) Why is it so necessary to absolutively KILL-ERADICATE an individual
>with one bullet? There are a plethora of other means of damaging that
>FASA comments the GM should by fiat state ANIHILATION. This includes
>belongings, foci, weapons, etc., not just body parts. For those elemental
>effect type methods of destruction, there is additional responsive
>damage, if you really want to be nasty, ie, gosh, I guess you also
>weakened the structure of the building and it collapses, etc.

I personally like realism in RPGs, not the story kind of RPG where it goes
"you've been shot." "Ouch." Anyone out here read White Wolf Magazine
(or
whatever it's called now)? I mean the article by Chris Kubasik that appeared
in issue 51; I don't agree with the views in that. I for one don't want to
stage a fight that lasts five second of real time just so we can get on with
the story -- I don't think (fire)fights mean you can't roleplay, as the
general attitude everywhere seems to be. My question to RPG designers with
that view is "why, then, do you keep sticking huge combat chapters into your
games if you don't want people staging long fights? Or lots of different
weapons, for that matter?"

>I generally have more trouble trying to keep PC's alive.

If you're packing teh firepower my players are, you will need something like
overflow rules to keep them making decisions that even resemble sensible ones...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Mr. Buzzcut sent us over to say hi to someone named Gene
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Message no. 51
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: RE: Deadly Wounds
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:46:38 -0500 (EST)
>Yes, I *know* the spiel about magic loss and Deadly wounds, but you don't
>have to take deadly wounds unless you're playing a REALLY high lethality
>campaign or your GM's got it in for you. I haven't yet ever had any of my
>characters take a deadly wound.
>
>(And Joker, if you're reading this, that doesn't mean they have to start
>now!)
>
>
Just a comment on my part, here. I don't play a mage, but Bull, my ork
decker has taken a deadly wound twice in his long career. The first time he
was unlucky enough to be standing far too close to a dragon for his own
good. The second time demonstrated just how dangerous spell locks can be.
We were fighting a dozen force 6-8 wasp spirits (not the felshforms), and
one of them went astral and hit me with it's poison attack through an armor
lock. Not only was my target number rather high, but my illustrious GM
chose taht night to suddenly roll a success on EVERY one of his dice (and
tehre were quite a few rolling behind that screen...). Needless to say,
Bull spent several days visiting Doc Wagon...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Deadly Wounds, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!