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Message no. 1
From: Glenn Robb <GLENNROBB@*******.NET>
Subject: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:09:11 -0700
Fredrik Lindblom wrote:

> I also had to deal with another munchkin . . . <snipped and Edited!>

Hmm. WHY IN THE BLOODY HECK DO YOU CALL SUCH GAMERS MUNCHKINS! A munchkin is
a dwarf. A magpie is a player who:

. . . is always demanding the best. He wants the shiny stuff. A magpie wants
the referee's attention. They also want the NPCs to remember them. Of course,
the bigger and shinier your story, the more satisfaction he gets. Magpies will
also be up to the visible scope of your campaign, so in dealing with these
players . . .

Be careful what you give him. If a magpie is in the group, and your beginning
a campaign, only let him buy stuff from the Core Rules until the story calls
for the shinier stuff (Bioware, new cyberware, etc.). This includes spells.
Allowing magpies to learn more and extremely dangerous spells results in what
you Shadowrun GMs call Munchkinism. Don't let him get it at the beginning of
the Campaign. Doing so will upset player balance (how would the rabbit, snake,
eagle, and dragon of your group would love it if you did?).

I guess that's all my rants on the whole thing. Incidently, I got the term
"Magpie" from a little book I bought recently. It's called Gamemaster Law.
Buy it. It may even improve your Gamemaster skills, Gurth.

— Elton Robb
Message no. 2
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:35:20 -0700
At 03:09 PM 12/19/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Hmm. WHY IN THE BLOODY HECK DO YOU CALL SUCH GAMERS MUNCHKINS! A
munchkin is
>a dwarf. A magpie is a player who:

Because most all role-players know what a munchkin is, and if you call them
a magpie you'll just get a confused look? Oh, and a magpie is a fucking
bird :P

-Adam


-
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ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ AdamJ@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
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Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:45:29 -0500
At 03:35 PM 12/19/97 -0700, Adam J wrote these timeless words:
>At 03:09 PM 12/19/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Hmm. WHY IN THE BLOODY HECK DO YOU CALL SUCH GAMERS MUNCHKINS! A
>munchkin is
>>a dwarf. A magpie is a player who:
>
>Because most all role-players know what a munchkin is, and if you call them
>a magpie you'll just get a confused look? Oh, and a magpie is a fucking
>bird :P
>
It also sounds more like what I'd call our group loonie :]

And it sounds REALLY silly :]

Bull
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Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:58:10 +0100
Glenn Robb said on 15:09/19 Dec 97...

> > I also had to deal with another munchkin . . . <snipped and Edited!>
>
> Hmm. WHY IN THE BLOODY HECK DO YOU CALL SUCH GAMERS MUNCHKINS! A
> munchkin is a dwarf. A magpie is a player who:

I suggest you take a look at commonly-used internet terms for RPG players.
You'll find that the word "munchkin" is used to describe a certain type of
player who wants to play ever-more powerful characters and doesn't feel
like they have to stick within the rules of the game to achieve that.

> I guess that's all my rants on the whole thing. Incidently, I got the term
> "Magpie" from a little book I bought recently. It's called Gamemaster Law.
> Buy it. It may even improve your Gamemaster skills, Gurth.

Why is this addressed specifically to me?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's crap but we love it!
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Message no. 5
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:42:23 +0100
At 20-Dez-97 wrote Gurth:


>> Buy it. It may even improve your Gamemaster skills, Gurth.

>Why is this addressed specifically to me?

I tink that he likes this book so much that he think that even
you the great god of SR and mastering can learn something from it :)

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:46:46 +0000
On 20 Dec 97 at 23:42, Barbie wrote:

> At 20-Dez-97 wrote Gurth:
>
>
> >> Buy it. It may even improve your Gamemaster skills, Gurth.
>
> >Why is this addressed specifically to me?
>
> I tink that he likes this book so much that he think that even
> you the great god of SR and mastering can learn something from it :)

Wow. And I thought Gurth was only the great God of SR rules-questions and
book quoting...Did he ever tell anything about his storyteller skills? ;)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 7
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 03:42:47 GMT
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:58:10 +0100, Gurth wrote:

> Glenn Robb said on 15:09/19 Dec 97...
>
> > > I also had to deal with another munchkin . . . <snipped and Edited!>
> >
> > Hmm. WHY IN THE BLOODY HECK DO YOU CALL SUCH GAMERS MUNCHKINS! A
> > munchkin is a dwarf. A magpie is a player who:
>
> I suggest you take a look at commonly-used internet terms for RPG players.
> You'll find that the word "munchkin" is used to describe a certain type of
> player who wants to play ever-more powerful characters and doesn't feel
> like they have to stick within the rules of the game to achieve that.

If you are interested in the origins of the term "munchkin", read on:

==========

Subject: Re: Question: Origin of term 'Munchkin'
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:03:42 GMT
From: ncc1701i@*******.com (Mark Campbell)
Organization:None
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc, rec.games.design
References: 1

Bruce Johnson <bjohnson@*.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Where did the RPG definition of Munchkin come from?

Munchkins, in their roles as protectors of the Yellow Brick Road, by
necessity develop a large number of useful skills. In fact, the
relentless training ritual of singing, dancing and skipping force the
small folk to develop perfect coordination and the best possible
cardi-vascular system. Consequently, all Munchkins have Dexterity and
Constitution ratings of 18.

The constant work the Munchkins do in picking flowers and replacing
yellow bricks that have faded to faint pastels also does its work to
chisel the muscles of these hardy folk. Lifting sometimes as many as two
or three bricks at a time, all Munchkins have a Strength score of 18.
Those who occasionally work out even further by practicing sword
fighting with dandylion stems actually exceed this score, and these
Munchkins have a Strength score of 18/00.

Munchkin life is not entirely a physical endeavor, however. There is, of
course, the Wizard to deal with. Being in such proximity to Oz--not to
mention all those Wicked Witches--requires sound judgement and a sharp
mind. Merely in order to survive such a lethal magical environment
requires all Munchkins above the age of four to have an Intelligence and
Wisdom of 18 each.

With their firm, chiseled bodies, the grace that comes from a lifetime
of dancing, a keen wit and impeccable judgment, Munchkins cannot help
but to be the envy of all other races. Still, their courage and senses
of humor make the Munchkins the most lovable race in the multiverse.
Therefore, all Munchkins have a Charisma (and Comliness, if this
optional rule is used) score of 18.

Munchkins as a race are, of course, the most highly developed beings
ever produced by the gods--in fact, each and every member of the race
borders on the divine itself. Their incredible aptitude in all areas
mean that they automatically gain every non-weapon proficiency the first
time they attempt a task. In fact, they never suffer a non-proficiency
penalty whether using a weapon or attempting a new skill for which they
previously had no proficiency slot.

Naturally, such a capable race cannot be held back to only one character
class. All Munchkins are Warrior/Priest/Wizard/Rogues, but use the Rogue
table to advance in levels for all classes. Lawful Good Munchkins are
usually Paladin/Specialty Priest/Evoker/Bards, while other Good Munkins
may be Ranger/Druid/Necromancer/Thiefs -- or anything else they want!

Because of the powerful aura which Munchkins posess, any being opposing
one automatically functions as if they are subject to a Protection from
[Good/Evil/Whatever] 10' Radius spell. All attacks against Munchkins are
made at -2 to hit and damage, spells do -1 hit point per die, and
Munchkins are immune to any spells from the Illusion school.

In any adventuring party, the Munchkin will naturally be the party
leader, despite his small stature. In order to make up for this handicap
(being short), the Munchkin always gets first choice of any treasure
(particularly magic items) found by the party.

Munchkins are distantly related to dwarves, humans and oompa-loompas,
but of course they are far superior to any of these races.

Mark Campbell

"I love California, I practically grew up in Phoenix."
Former US Vice-President Dan Quayle

==========



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 8
From: Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:00:21 +0100
At 15:09 1997-12-19 -0700, you wrote:
>Fredrik Lindblom wrote:
>
>> I also had to deal with another munchkin . . . <snipped and Edited!>
>
>Hmm. WHY IN THE BLOODY HECK DO YOU CALL SUCH GAMERS MUNCHKINS! A
munchkin is
>a dwarf. A magpie is a player who:

Calm down! No reason to scream! Or use rude words...

Ever considered that the reason just might be that _I_ have _not_ read
"Gamemaster Law"? That I do GM SR but _not_ Rolemaster?


/FL
Message no. 9
From: Glenn Robb <GLENNROBB@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:50:20 -0700
James Lindsay wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:58:10 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>
> > Glenn Robb said on 15:09/19 Dec 97...
> >
> > > > I also had to deal with another munchkin . . . <snipped and
Edited!>
> > >
> Naturally, such a capable race cannot be held back to only one character
> class. All Munchkins are Warrior/Priest/Wizard/Rogues, but use the Rogue
> table to advance in levels for all classes. Lawful Good Munchkins are
> usually Paladin/Specialty Priest/Evoker/Bards, while other Good Munkins
> may be Ranger/Druid/Necromancer/Thiefs -- or anything else they want!

Yep, these guys definitely *want* the shiny stuff.

— Elton Robb
Message no. 10
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:01:59 -0600
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Glenn Robb wrote:
> Hmm. WHY IN THE BLOODY HECK DO YOU CALL SUCH GAMERS MUNCHKINS! A munchkin is
> a dwarf. A magpie is a player who:

Ok.. whoa.. slow down a bit here. Munchkin is a commonly used term to
refer to such players as you describe as magpie's. As to it's origin,
I'm not certain, but I can attest to the fact that it is commonly used
and thus a generally understood reference. I guess my question would be
why is this so upsetting to you? Oh, and btw, a munchkin is not a
dwarf. Although a dwarf might be referred to as a munchkin, so could a
variety of other races. The two terms are not interchangeable.


> . . . is always demanding the best. He wants the shiny stuff. A magpie wants
> the referee's attention. They also want the NPCs to remember them. Of course,
> the bigger and shinier your story, the more satisfaction he gets. Magpies will
> also be up to the visible scope of your campaign, so in dealing with these
> players . . .

In dealing with these players.. quite simply, don't. You want to know
what the best way to stop a magpie/munchkin/number-cruncher ad infinitum
is? You don't let him/her generate there own character. You tell them
to write up a background, and you create the character for them from the
background. If there background is unbelievable or out of line with the
power level of your campaign, make them redo it. If they find this
unacceptable, let them find another campaign. No big loss IMHO. The
emphasis for SR or any roleplaying game should be on roleplaying, not on
numbers. The problem your describing is that the player wants to play a
person with no weaknesses or frailties. In other words, the don't want
to play a person. If your into that sort of thing, find another gaming
system. Rifts is good for that from what I hear.

> I guess that's all my rants on the whole thing. Incidently, I got the term
> "Magpie" from a little book I bought recently. It's called Gamemaster Law.
> Buy it. It may even improve your Gamemaster skills, Gurth.

Ok, you got the term Magpie from a book. The word munchkin has been a
common term in use for a very long time. In fact, the first time I
heard the term used was 12œ years ago. I suppose my concern is that you
have gotten so upset by terminology that you don't seem to see that most
of the GM's here would agree with you about munchkins/magpies/whatever.
Also, you have done Gurth a great disservice by assuming his
gamemastering skills are substandard. You've never played with him, run
with him or been in one of his campaigns. How can you possibly know
anything of his gamemastering skills? Personally I've read a lot of the
material Gurth's posts on the web and from what I can see he is an
excellent story teller, has quite frankly the best grasp of the rules
system of any GM I've ever seen and certainly understands the concept of
game balance. I would find it very hard to believe he is anything but
an excellent GM.

Digger
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Message no. 11
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:06:31 -0500
At 09:01 PM 12/22/97 -0600, TODD ROBBINS wrote:

# Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\vcard.vcf"
#

Todd,

Please turn off the vcard feature of your mailer.
If you havent read the FAQ I'd like to let you know that Attachments are
frowned upon on this list, as some people could possibly get fired when
receiving these, and not everyone uses a mailer that can handle attachments.

Justin
--
/- justin@****.mcp.com -------------------- justin@******.net -\
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|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 12
From: Glenn Robb <GLENNROBB@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:15:56 -0700
> How can you possibly know anything of his gamemastering skills? Personally I've
read a lot of the material Gurth's posts
> on the web and from what I can see he is an excellent story teller, has quite frankly
the best grasp of the rules system of
> any GM I've ever seen and certainly understands the concept of game balance. I would
find it very hard to believe he is
> anything but an excellent GM.
>

Digger, thanks. But what I was suggesting that the book has a lot of stuff that GMs like
Gurth could use. My cousin, for
instance, is the best GM in the whole of Utah County (and like what you said about Gurth's
style, you'd have to be there). I
am not questioning Gurth's abilities as a GM. I am only suggesting that he can improve
his techniques.

Since we aren't all perfect GMs here, there is room for improvement, and incidently,
that's what I was saying. Didn't you
read my shameless plug about Gamemaster Law on the list?

— Elton Robb
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:11:34 +0100
Glenn Robb said on 8:15/23 Dec 97...

> Digger, thanks. But what I was suggesting that the book has a lot of
> stuff that GMs like Gurth could use. My cousin, for instance, is the
> best GM in the whole of Utah County (and like what you said about
> Gurth's style, you'd have to be there). I am not questioning Gurth's
> abilities as a GM. I am only suggesting that he can improve his
> techniques.

I must say, though, that it came off as a sort of heavy hint that my GMing
skills aren't all that great. From what you say here it looks like that's
not what you intended, but it is how it came out :/

> Since we aren't all perfect GMs here, there is room for improvement,
> and incidently, that's what I was saying. Didn't you read my shameless
> plug about Gamemaster Law on the list?

That's what caused this thread, wasn't it?

On a related note, there appears to be an article in a recent Inquest
for first-time GMs or something. I don't usually read that magazine, but
one of my players mentioned it after he GMed for our group last Friday. It
seems he took some hints from that in order to try and make a good
adventure, and it turned out to go more or less in the opposite direction.

As I understand it, it talks about inspiring fear into the PCs, by using
people so obviously powerful that the PCs do what they want. His attempts
to follow this advice only annoyed us, though. Now I'm wondering if anyone
knows whether there's anything on the web that resembles a "GMing 101"
guide, not aimed at a specific game but more at new GMs in general. Giving
him something like that to read would save me some time in explaining the
basics...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Frankly my damn, I don't give a dear.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Message no. 14
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:12:57 -0600
>
> Digger, thanks. But what I was suggesting that the book has a lot of stuff that GMs
like Gurth could use. My cousin, for
> instance, is the best GM in the whole of Utah County (and like what you said about
Gurth's style, you'd have to be there). I
> am not questioning Gurth's abilities as a GM. I am only suggesting that he can
improve his techniques.

Hehehe.. well, I don't think anyone can be harmed by a few handy tips
here and there, but you must realize that there are those of us who have
been Gamemaster for a very, very long time. I've heard about the book
you described, and I found nothing in the description given to me that
would be very valuable. While you may find it indispensable, I might
find it mostly common sense and amusing. It depends on your experience
and your point of view.

> Since we aren't all perfect GMs here, there is room for improvement, and incidently,
that's what I was saying. Didn't you
> read my shameless plug about Gamemaster Law on the list?

Shameless plug is not a problem. The problem is assuming that everyone
could benefit from this book, and assuming that the information
contained within is some sort of burning bush message that must be
hailed and welcomed by GM's everywhere.

Digger
Message no. 15
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:33:15 -0600
Gurth wrote:

> As I understand it, it talks about inspiring fear into the PCs, by using
> people so obviously powerful that the PCs do what they want. His attempts
> to follow this advice only annoyed us, though. Now I'm wondering if anyone

Gads.. Stupid GM trick #58 - The powerful NPC that you should fear and
suck up too. Someone actually suggested this was a good idea?

> knows whether there's anything on the web that resembles a "GMing 101"
> guide, not aimed at a specific game but more at new GMs in general. Giving
> him something like that to read would save me some time in explaining the
> basics...

I don't know of one that exists - but I think it might be a jim-dandy
idea to create one. It might take a considerable amount of time to
accumulate all of the articles/information but I think it has a lot of
promise.


Digger
Message no. 16
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:13:52 -0600
TODD ROBBINS wrote:
>
> Gurth wrote:
>
> > As I understand it, it talks about inspiring fear into the PCs, by using
> > people so obviously powerful that the PCs do what they want. His attempts
> > to follow this advice only annoyed us, though. Now I'm wondering if anyone
>
> Gads.. Stupid GM trick #58 - The powerful NPC that you should fear and
> suck up too. Someone actually suggested this was a good idea?
>
> > knows whether there's anything on the web that resembles a "GMing 101"
> > guide, not aimed at a specific game but more at new GMs in general. Giving
> > him something like that to read would save me some time in explaining the
> > basics...
>

For those new gamemasters out there, watching this lovely little
discussion -- Having the NPC who is a god and basically saves the PC's
butts at every turn is a very Bad Idea (tm). It breeds resentment by
your players, and lessens the impact of things when they know they will
eventually be saved, or awed, by the NPC in question.

This is not to say having a powerful NPC around is a bad thing, but he
should be in the periphery, not on the main stage. The players are the
actors in the drama, and they are reduced to supporting roles when the
'true actors' (NPC) show their heads in such a fashion.

A very good friend of mine ran a campaign like this. Quite honestly, the
resentment which was generated caused the game to die like a dead leaf
on a tree.

--Lightfinger
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:14:25 +0100
TODD ROBBINS said on 19:33/23 Dec 97...

> Gads.. Stupid GM trick #58 - The powerful NPC that you should fear and
> suck up too. Someone actually suggested this was a good idea?

Like I said, he claimed this was what the article said, and I haven't read
it so I can't be sure. It may be good advice that wasn't executed
properly, or it may be worthless.

> I don't know of one that exists - but I think it might be a jim-dandy
> idea to create one. It might take a considerable amount of time to
> accumulate all of the articles/information but I think it has a lot of
> promise.

That's why I was wondering if someone had already written a file like
this. It'd save me the trouble of trying to compile one myself :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 18
From: Glenn Robb <GLENNROBB@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:07:02 -0700
Gurth wrote:

> Glenn Robb said on 8:15/23 Dec 97...
>
> On a related note, there appears to be an article in a recent Inquest
> for first-time GMs or something. I don't usually read that magazine, but
> one of my players mentioned it after he GMed for our group last Friday. It
> seems he took some hints from that in order to try and make a good
> adventure, and it turned out to go more or less in the opposite direction.
>
> As I understand it, it talks about inspiring fear into the PCs, by using
> people so obviously powerful that the PCs do what they want. His attempts
> to follow this advice only annoyed us, though. Now I'm wondering if anyone
> knows whether there's anything on the web that resembles a "GMing 101"
> guide, not aimed at a specific game but more at new GMs in general. Giving
> him something like that to read would save me some time in explaining the
> basics...
>
> --

I wonder who wrote the article. Sounds pretty cheezy to me. As for "GM 101"
on the web,
he or she could take a look at Tracy Hickman's web page at:
http://www.trhickman.com.
Tracy Hickman has the best advice for new GM's that I've seen anywhere. But
as to
Shadowrun in particular, there is Blackjack's Shadowrun Page. Blackjack is
probably the
best source to go for SR GM 101. Besides you, Gurth. :)

— Elton Robb
Message no. 19
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:54:26 -0600
Gurth wrote:

> Like I said, he claimed this was what the article said, and I haven't read
> it so I can't be sure. It may be good advice that wasn't executed
> properly, or it may be worthless.

Hmm.. could be either way. But even if he interpreted it incorrectly I
would be very hesitant about any article that recommends the use of
ultra powerful pc's. They simply have a tremendous potential for abuse
on both ends of the spectra, and need to be handled with the utmost
caution.

> That's why I was wondering if someone had already written a file like
> this. It'd save me the trouble of trying to compile one myself :)

I think perhaps I'll get started on something after the holidays.. if
my schedule gets a bit more free time added somewhere.. hehehe

Digger
Message no. 20
From: Glenn Robb <GLENNROBB@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:17:41 -0700
Todd Robbins wrote:

> Shameless plug is not a problem. The problem is assuming that everyone
> could benefit from this book, and assuming that the information
> contained within is some sort of burning bush message that must be
> hailed and welcomed by GM's everywhere.
>
> Digger

Then I guess you can't teach an Old GM some new tricks.

— Elton Robb
Message no. 21
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:05:29 -0600
> Then I guess you can't teach an Old GM some new tricks.
>
> — Elton Robb

Elton, you continue to astound me with your ability to prejudge people
you know absolutely nothing about. I learn something knew about game
mastering every day, but my teacher is real life. Not a book. Try it
sometime. I think you'll find there is a lot real life has to offer.


Digger
Message no. 22
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 02:25:13 +0000
On 23 Dec 97 at 20:13, David Lightfinger wrote:

> > Gads.. Stupid GM trick #58 - The powerful NPC that you should fear and
> > suck up too. Someone actually suggested this was a good idea?
> >
> > > knows whether there's anything on the web that resembles a "GMing
101"
> > > guide, not aimed at a specific game but more at new GMs in general. Giving
> > > him something like that to read would save me some time in explaining the
> > > basics...
> > >
> For those new gamemasters out there, watching this lovely little
> discussion -- Having the NPC who is a god and basically saves the PC's
> butts at every turn is a very Bad Idea (tm). It breeds resentment by
> your players, and lessens the impact of things when they know they will
> eventually be saved, or awed, by the NPC in question.

I give a giant ACK on this one. I've played witha GM who always made all
NPCs either Jesus or Satan, and well, by now I'm the GM (Just imagine how
desperate everybody must have been!:))

> This is not to say having a powerful NPC around is a bad thing, but he
> should be in the periphery, not on the main stage. The players are the
> actors in the drama, and they are reduced to supporting roles when the
> 'true actors' (NPC) show their heads in such a fashion.

Well, my 2Y on this: Make an NPC that's about as powerful as the PCs (maybe
a bit more, if you have to), but make him act a, well, fear inducing way.
The one NPC my players are most afraid of is a mafia-killer called Necro.
Actually he wouldn't stand a chance against the PCs, but as I'm the GM I
can plan what he does and when he does it. Works fine *and* gives the PCs a
chance to survive...
So if you ever start to regularly make NPCs which are more powerful than
the PCs (remember: shadowrun PCs *are* some of the more dangerous folks on
the streets. They are professionals (unless you run the game "no pros at
chargen"), remember Dave's words!

...maybe it's time to get the first stuff to the GM101-page...:)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 23
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dealing with Magpies
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:18:36 -0500
At 08:13 PM 12/23/97 -0600, you wrote:
>For those new gamemasters out there, watching this lovely little
>discussion -- Having the NPC who is a god and basically saves the PC's
>butts at every turn is a very Bad Idea (tm). It breeds resentment by
>your players, and lessens the impact of things when they know they will
>eventually be saved, or awed, by the NPC in question.

Me, I'd be tempted, running a PC, to cack (by clever and nefarious means)
someone who decided to stop by and tell me what to do, as a plot device.
It's rude, and sloppy, and the bloke deserves a knife in the back if he
decides to push me around. It would be out of character to let him get
away with it, for any character I've played, as they tend to value their
freedom (poor, criminal, wanted by the law, what do your average runners
have? Self-respect, and freedom, and occasionally some cash).

>
>This is not to say having a powerful NPC around is a bad thing, but he
>should be in the periphery, not on the main stage. The players are the
>actors in the drama, and they are reduced to supporting roles when the
>'true actors' (NPC) show their heads in such a fashion.

Exactly. It's like having a 15th level mage in a starting AD&D campaign...
It doesn't fit.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome

Further Reading

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