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Message no. 1
From: "A.R.Gay" <cs6004@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 13:23:03 +0000
With the Shadowrun: A world of darkness rules and speculation
being bounced around, Chopper and I were considering changes to
the magic and summoning rules in SR2. It raised a few
questions, most of which we answered but I thought you might
like to hear them. Any comments would be greatfully accepted,
but please note these are only ideas and no rules have been
discused as yet.

1) Why are there no Deamons in Shadowrun?

Because it was released in America, and the Americans
have a nearly obsesive paranoia with anything that could be
considered `The work of the Devil'. This is because they watch
too much crap TV and have given up thinking for them selves, and
like the majrity of people today are happy to follow blindly
like sheep anyone who leads, without question. I am amazed that
Stormbringer even got published over there with its magic system.

2) What would they be like?

Possibly just very powerful spirits with a very
malicious sense of humour. Or possibly the denizens of one of
the meta planes. In contempory meditation and astral travel
techniques, you are told never to go down from your starting
point. Why? Because all the squiggely things live there. This
would translate quite well into SR terms as one of the levels of
metaplanes not discussed in the books, once more for the reasons
given in 1 about christian religion. *shudder* Maybe these
lower, or negative planes are the homes of the insect spirits,
or maybe something far more insidious. How about beings who
live off of magical energy, and come to the sixth world to drink
the mana present. This would cause patches of dead magic, the
reverse to background count but with the same effects. The
effect may just be a lessening in the overall flux of magic. I
have already uesd negative planar spirits in my game, the effect
on my players was gratifiengly intense, causing worry and
paranoia.

3) What are the abilities of deamons?

Powers such as Accident, Wealth and maybe possion.
the ability to cause frenzy would also be possible. Maybe
creatures like the Nomad (Paranimals of N America. ) are weak
negative planar spirits, which would make the powers of their
biger cousins truley terifiying.

These are just a few thoughts on the possibilities that could be
exploted for plot ideas, any comments of a derogitory nature
are obviously not aimed at SR players, as they are enlightened
enugh not to be Sheep. Better go before I insult anyone else,;-)

--
***************************************************************************
* JackFrost <cs6004@****.wlv.ac.uk> For all your shadowtech requirements.*
* "If at first you don't succeed, use Magic..." *
* -- Shifter, Street Mage *
***************************************************************************
Message no. 2
From: Juan Carlos Ochoa Mantilla <o9315490@******.UNIANDES.EDU.CO>
Subject: Re: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 08:34:43 -0500
Yer right , pal . Americans get really touchy about demons.As you've
probably seen , AD&D Second edition rules changed demons into otherplanar
beings with no reference to their demonic nature.
We've been using demons as a specialized form of summoning , only
availible to initiates. the beasties only materialize as great-form
entities , and usually have shapeshifting and spellcasting power , as
well as possesion abilities .

ABRAXAS
Message no. 3
From: "D.A.V.E. the Android" <DHEIN@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 10:04:03 EST
> Yer right , pal . Americans get really touchy about demons.As you've

I hate to nitpick (yeah, right), but *RELIGIOUS* Americans get touchy
about demons. I personally like to throw demons into all my games. We're
not all sheep you know.


D.A.V.E. the Android DHEIN@******.BITNET
(Disturbingly Artificial Vagrant Entity)
"I prefer the term 'artificial person' myself." - Bishop, "ALIENS"
Message no. 4
From: Loki <jek5313@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 09:39:01 -0600
-->
--> 1) Why are there no Deamons in Shadowrun?
-->

See the Horrors. These are the best examlpe of Daemons from beyond the
Pale that exist in the game (especially since they mention the Pale in
passing). I'm not terribly familiar with these guys (as I'm trying to
avoid the necessary outlay of cash and time to learn another new gaming
system) but they seem particularly nasty and much like one might envision
daemons.

Also, the Amers over here have a reason to be that conservtive. Every time
anybody mentions anything even _remotely_ evil or malicious around here, a
thousand mothers and conservative idiots (not idiot conservatives, thank
you) scream rape and run to their nearest senator, better business bureau,
PTA, newspaper, and PAC (also known as the "legal bribe system").

I see the new invocation of horrors and evil nasties to be the culmination
of a plan which was put into action in 1990. I'll bet I know what's going
on, even without the EarthDawn book. Do you? Doom knows my thoughts'
direction, and it should keep even him up at night.




--

Dark Thought Publications & Doom Technologies, Inc.
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
Message no. 5
From: Joshua James Harrison <harrij4@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 10:33:26 -0500
> or maybe something far more insidious. How about beings who
> live off of magical energy, and come to the sixth world to drink
> the mana present.

Hmm... where have I heard this before... *ponder* oh yeah, Earthdawn! I don't
know if you're familiar with this (beautiful, IMO) FASA product, but the
Horrors sound remarkably similar to what you just described... demonic-style
beings from the astral plane that come to earth to feed off the mana.
Supposedly, from all the rumors, the adventure "Harlequin's Back" (Coming
soon! Not to be missed!) will deal with delaying the arrival of the horrors in
Shadowrun...

Incidentally, I think one reason that there are no "d(a)emons" is that the
whole 'cyberpunk' attitude is that the evil in the world is caused by man, and
not by evil demons rising from the pit of hell determined to drag all good
christian souls to damnation with them. I mean, there aren't very many astral
beings that can be considered 'evil' (except perhaps the Shadow style Free
Spirits - see the GrimII for info)... even the Insect spirits are not
considered evil, just "alien"... we don't understand their purposes, so we
call it evil because we lack a better term. I think it all fits into the
'cyberpunk' air that is, inherently, Shadowrun.

But then, what do I know? :)



--
Josh Harrison | A Elbereth Gilthoniel | "The Hedgehog"
aka A.M. Hawke | o menel palan-diriel, | \ \ | / /
Internet: | le nallon si di'nguruthos! | \ \ | / /
harrij4@***.edu | A tiro nin, Fanuilos! | --- O O ---
------------------------------------------------------------| / C \
'Now come, you filth!' he cried. 'You've hurt my master, | / m\_/m \
you brute, and you'll pay for it. We're going on; but we'll |---------------
settle with you first. Come on, and taste it again!' - Sam, "The Two Towers"
Message no. 6
From: Uhruhruhruhruhruhruhruhruhruh! <bay@*******.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 11:23:21 EST
That demon idea is *very* interesting . . .

Many preternatural creatures in literature and mythology have been quantified
and delineated in Shadowrun, such as vampires and wendigos (caused by a
virus) and the like. I have been involved in much discussion on the nature
of demons, including the idea that they are not intrinsically evil (or good),
but their actions depend on the attitudes and desires of the summoner/binder.

What's a demon in shadowrun? An insect spirit? Not really . . . More like
an ally shadow spirit - extremely variable in form, evil(?) in its nature.

Make your own.

In the Cthulhu Mythos, Cthulhu and the rest of the Great Old Ones are sort of
demons, although Lovecraft says that they are simply alien, and thus have a
different conception (if any at all) of morality. Chris McCullough's comic
_The Tick_ (an excellent one, by the way) features a Cthulhu-ish creature
(whose name escapes me for the moment). In its psychological profile (did I
mention _The Tick_ is a superhero satire?) it states something like, "Its
actions cannot be viewed as neccessarily evil. (It) comes from a different
world, with different moral precepts. Unfortunately, one of those precepts
is the mandatory consumption of the souls of sentient life forms . . . "

Similar to the quote at the beginning of the "Threats" chapter in GrimII.

Oh well, enough of that. Make your demons. Maybe they're from the metaplane
of Shadow (or of Hell, if you're into that).

I think this is a topic which begs to be discussed. Now we have a hermetic
equivalent to the toxic shamans :>

Sincerely,
Joe Bay
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Message no. 7
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 12:59:17 -0600
>I hate to nitpick (yeah, right), but *RELIGIOUS* Americans get touchy

I'm a Roman Catholic, going to be confirmed this May. I've got a Rider-Waite
Tarot deck, which sits right next to my copies of Vampire and AD&D, which sit
right next to my copies of the Book of the Dead and the Necronomicon.

So some *RELIGIOUS* Americans don't really care, and even enjoy, demons and such
in their games. 'course there's a difference IMO between ritual sacrifices and
playing a _game_.
Message no. 8
From: Quid Non <jdfalk@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 14:28:08 -0500
On Wed, 9 Mar 1994, A.R.Gay wrote:

> 1) Why are there no Deamons in Shadowrun?
>
> Because it was released in America, and the Americans
> have a nearly obsesive paranoia with anything that could be
> considered `The work of the Devil'. This is because they watch
> too much crap TV and have given up thinking for them selves, and
> like the majrity of people today are happy to follow blindly
> like sheep anyone who leads, without question. I am amazed that
> Stormbringer even got published over there with its magic system.
Now, don't generalize _too_ much here. 'Tis true there are way
too damned many people in America with this point of view, but we aren't
all like that...in fact, most people don't even care enough to make their
opinions known (which is the _real_ problem if you ask me).
Other than that, I agree with what you wrote -- it all looks
feasable to me. Only one question.
Are you sure you'd WANT such creatures in you game? I've seen too
many AD&D Dungeon Masters bring in a demon only to realize just how
awesomely powerful those things are after half the party is destroyed and
the demon isn't even scratched...in the first melee round!
Message no. 9
From: Michael Lozano <lozanom@******.ENMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 21:33:52 +0100
>> Yer right , pal . Americans get really touchy about demons.
>
>I hate to nitpick (yeah, right), but *RELIGIOUS* Americans get touchy
>about demons. I personally like to throw demons into all my games. We're
>not all sheep you know.

My team just finished up a run against a trio of demon-possessed mages.
I can say it's fun to run them and keep the team guessing about just
what they are capable of....

Michael

/----------------------------------------------------\
| Michael R. Lozano | Region VII Director |
| lozanom@******.enmu.edu | International SPURS |
|----------------------------------------------------|
| Guns don't kill people. People don't kill people. |
| People WITH guns kill people. |
\----------------------------------------------------/
\ GMU/O -d+@ -p+ c++++ l-- u- e+ m+ /
\ s/-n---@ h-- f+ g- w+ t+ r+ y+ /
\-------------------------------/
Message no. 10
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 12:32:46 -0700
>With the Shadowrun: A world of darkness rules and speculation
>being bounced around, Chopper and I were considering changes to
>the magic and summoning rules in SR2. It raised a few
>questions, most of which we answered but I thought you might
>like to hear them. Any comments would be greatfully accepted,
>but please note these are only ideas and no rules have been
>discused as yet.
>
>1) Why are there no Deamons in Shadowrun?
>
>2) What would they be like?
>3) What are the abilities of deamons?

Actually , I believe that this conversation may have come up before, or atleast
parts like it have been discussed.

Since someone has already stated that many Daemons that Americans think of are
actually just dieties in non-Christian religions, I will bring something else to
your antention.

ShadowRun DOES have daemons, daemons have been mentioned in one or two or the
Books,modules or novels. Instead of being called daemons they are called by the
politically correct name of Elementals - think about it - ShadowRun elemental
resemble many of the characteristics of non-romanticized Daemon summoning.
They come and serve the master that summoned them. If the summoner looses
control the Daemon/Elemental geeks him and probably goes then goes home.
Sometimes the Daemon/Elemental stays and becomes a terrorizing Daemon/Free
Spirit Elemental - it might even get the ability to posses people.

Remember that most of the stuff we Americans think we know about Daemons is
actually just a corrupted Christian version of older pagan beliefs. Christians
tended to classify many things that weren't to there liking as Daemons or just
as evil - they were very good at hating things.

Also - to christians - anything that was of otherworldy nature that wasn't an
"angel" was called a daemon.


BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
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GE - d+(-) -p+@ c++(++++) !L u(--) e+(*) m+ s+/ !n+(-) h* f+ g+ w+++ t+ r+ y+
"infinity = zero" - Daniel Waisley "Nightfox"
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Message no. 11
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deamons in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 16:46:44 -0500
Vaguely recollected from what a friend of mine told me:

Western hermetic magic tradition often involves gaining power from
angelic beings. Hermetic mages can gain power from, among other things,
air elementals ... one of who's manifesting forms are apparently close
to classical descriptions of angels. And Paul Hume is quite familiar
with Western hermetic traditions. Make of it what you wish.

I have no idea if earth elementals can be mapped in to correspond
to demons, however.

- cks

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Deamons in Shadowrun, you may also be interested in:

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