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Message no. 1
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:47:37 EDT
Jill <jmenning@*******.com> wrote,

> Air transport could - could is operative - actually become a more viable
> option in those conditions - you'd only have to guard it on either end. If
> civilian shipping companies start using planes comparable to those huge
> military cargo planes, they could ship a heck of a lot of stuff relatively
> quickly, and only have to guard it on either end. Granted, that would not
> be practical for large machinery or automobiles and the like, but for the
> smaller items - from cyberware to the latest in Armani to Ares' current
> SOTA shock-laser-grenade launcher - it could work. Again, it would depend
> on weighing the costs of the various options, and might differ from company
> to company as they take into account overhead and risk and whatever else
> they talk about - not my field, can you tell?

Three main problems, and a bunch of smaller problems:

(1) Air shipping is expensive, pound for pound and mile for mile (or
kilo for kilo, whichever you prefer). Air freight costs AT LEAST 3 times
as much as ground or sea shipping, more so if it's really heavy.
Depending on what percent G&A (general and administrative) and other
indirect costs factor into a product's cost, this could increase the
retail price anywhere from 30 to 300% of the current market price. And
that's just for finished goods. If you also incorporate subassemblies,
bulk raw materials (petroleum, iron ore, coal, etc.), and production
equipment, that 30-300% price hike will grow exponentially.

(2) There's way too much trade volume to make air shipping even barely
competititive with rail or sea freight. A C-5 Galaxy has a cargo payload
of about 118 metric tons. Your typical container ship has a payload over
100 thousand metric tons. So it would take you a thousand C-5s to equal
the hauling capacity of a single container ship. Similarly, the interior
dimensions of a C-5 could allow it to carry up to 12 40' cargo
containers. Most freight trains can pull way more than that.

(Incidentally, you don't gain all that much by switching from a
commercial bird to one of those military cargo planes. A Boeing 747 has
a payload of about 102 metric tons, which isn't all that far behind the
C-5 --- about a 13% loss in payload. If you want to compare more recent
designs, the C-17 Globemaster has a payload of about 77 metric tons,
while a Boeing 777 has a payload of about 55 metric tons.)

(3) One other thing you're forgetting is the local distribution network.
Even if you do switch to cargo planes, those are big birds that require
a lot of runway space, and there aren't a lot of big airports around.
You still have to distribute the goods locally, so you still have to
rely on the local distribution system (mostly trucks), and that is by
far the weakest link in the transportation system.

I won't go into the smaller problems, but they mostly have to deal with
the particulars of air transportation (for example, stringent
restrictions on flammable, explosive, or otherwise hazardous material).

True, there are exceptions, (computer/electronic components, for
example), but by and large these exceptions generally prove the rule.

-- Jon
Message no. 2
From: Jill jmenning@*******.com
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 19:06:38 -0500
At 06:47 PM 5/1/00, Jon wrote:

>Three main problems, and a bunch of smaller problems:

<SNIP all the problems>

Learn something new every day :o)

It had never really occurred to me just how expensive air transport was.
That's something I'll have to take into account for future games. It's a
factor we (local group and myself) have tended to ignore. Thank you for the
numbers.

Jill

"Nearly half of online users say the Internet has become something of a
necessity in their lives. However, a full 95% of that half admit that 'they
actually have no lives,' calling into question the validity of the survey. "
-Jim Rosenberg

http://www.redrival.com/jmenning
Message no. 3
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:41:32 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 1 May 2000 19:47:37 EDT, JonSzeto@***.com wrote:

>Jill <jmenning@*******.com> wrote,
>
>> Air transport could - could is operative - actually become a more viable
>> option in those conditions - you'd only have to guard it on either end. If
>> civilian shipping companies start using planes comparable to those huge
>> military cargo planes, they could ship a heck of a lot of stuff relatively
>> quickly, and only have to guard it on either end. Granted, that would not
>> be practical for large machinery or automobiles and the like, but for the
>> smaller items - from cyberware to the latest in Armani to Ares' current
>> SOTA shock-laser-grenade launcher - it could work. Again, it would depend
>> on weighing the costs of the various options, and might differ from company
>> to company as they take into account overhead and risk and whatever else
>> they talk about - not my field, can you tell?
>
>Three main problems, and a bunch of smaller problems:
>
>(1) Air shipping is expensive, pound for pound and mile for mile (or
>kilo for kilo, whichever you prefer). Air freight costs AT LEAST 3 times
>as much as ground or sea shipping, more so if it's really heavy.
>Depending on what percent G&A (general and administrative) and other
>indirect costs factor into a product's cost, this could increase the
>retail price anywhere from 30 to 300% of the current market price. And
>that's just for finished goods. If you also incorporate subassemblies,
>bulk raw materials (petroleum, iron ore, coal, etc.), and production
>equipment, that 30-300% price hike will grow exponentially.


Lighter than air (zeppelin) air freight does not display this huge difference. Sea
freight is still cheaper, but not by as much, and
is slower. Also sea freight desn't handle mountain very well...

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://www.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 4
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 03:43:58 +0200
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 06:05:50 -0500
From: Jill <jmenning@*******.com>

> I suppose a lot of it would depend on how much real estate costs in urban
> centers as opposed to the cost of protecting large quantities of shipped
> goods. Obviously, huge corporations such as Ares and the like are not going
> to produce everything everywhere, so there's going to be no lack of
> shipping traffic. The question would be which costs more - the land you are
> building it on (including taxes, fees, etc), or the cost of defending it as
> you ship it to the consumer.

Real estate prices should be, IMO, beyond the moon orbit in downtown
districts, only affordable by large corporations and VERY wealthy
individuals. Outside cities, however, not that much. One thing to
consider is extraterritoriality: it reduce taxes only to land-owning
ones. You have to pay custom taxes though - if they still exist.
Pollution will only bother PRs and spin doctors, not accountants given
megacorps lobbying power. So building factories/offices in green and
nice countryside would not be so expensive. Much less than today, at
least.

> Air transport could - could is operative - actually become a more viable
<SNIP>
> Granted, that would not
> be practical for large machinery or automobiles and the like, but for the
> smaller items - from cyberware to the latest in Armani to Ares' current
> SOTA shock-laser-grenade launcher - it could work.

Luxury goods and items that need high security are IMO the only ones
that are worth air transport. Otherwise, what need to be asked is "does
it makes a good loot ?". Just picture this:
- All right boys, the ship is seized, what's in the hold ?
- 2 millions yellow rubber ducks, cap'ain !
- Buggrit !
To avoid piracy just make sure you ship goods that can't be sold in
black market. Just to name a few:
1- basic resources (unrefined oil, minerals, food...)
2- low priced consomation goods (aka rubber ducks)
3- Objects that can't be handled (cars, industrial machinery...)
etc.
IMO, delocalized industry is producing either low price items or low
number items that aren't worth building several facilities.
Optoelectronics facilities will sprout up in the US.

> Again, it would depend
> on weighing the costs of the various options, and might differ from company
> to company as they take into account overhead and risk and whatever else
> they talk about - not my field, can you tell?

Nor mine, but a few wild guesses might do it :). That's the kind of
thing that would depend on the efficiency rating (from Corporate
Download) of a corp. High efficiency: good balance between reducing
production costs and transport capacity (Wuxing comes to mind), good
spare parts share and distribution (who needs a whole shipment of 12
inches Saeder-Krupp cranck arm ?), etc. Low efficiency: insane trade and
production decisions (What ? You import computers and produce inflatable
mattresses in downtown Seattle ??) and administrative absurdities. I
love that.

> Nah. I was just a bit depressed, and it came through in my writing. There
> was nothing in your words to prompt it, just my mood.

Cheers ! O virtues of hypocrisy... :-)
Message no. 5
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:00:15 +0200
According to Achille Autran, at 3:43 on 2 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> To avoid piracy just make sure you ship goods that can't be sold in
> black market. Just to name a few:
> 1- basic resources (unrefined oil, minerals, food...)

You can sell all of those, to the right buyer. Crude oil? Get in touch
with another corporation that owns a bucnh of refineries and offer it to
them at a price far below market value. Food? Sail the ship to a part of
the world where there's a famine (or at least a food shortage).

> 2- low priced consomation goods (aka rubber ducks)

Yes, I can see some difficulties in getting rid of two million rubber
ducks. Other items, though, you can again sell in bulk. So you grab a ship
loaded with TV sets -- sell them in a part of the world where TVs are
really expensive, but where people really want to live a western
lifestyle.

> 3- Objects that can't be handled (cars, industrial machinery...)

It's always a matter of finding the right buyer. There is always _someone_
who wants what you have to sell, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Jill jmenning@*******.com
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 08:15:07 -0500
At 04:00 AM 5/2/00, Gurth wrote:

>It's always a matter of finding the right buyer. There is always _someone_
>who wants what you have to sell, IMHO.

Oh sure, steal my arguments before I get there :o)

I'd also add that in addition to selling the goods themselves, you can sell
the vehicle they came in, maybe for quite a lot of money, depending on who
you know and what kind of vehicle it is in, etc.

Jill
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:53:54 +0200
According to Jill, at 8:15 on 2 May 00, the word on the street was...

> >It's always a matter of finding the right buyer. There is always _someone_
> >who wants what you have to sell, IMHO.
>
> Oh sure, steal my arguments before I get there :o)

Always happy to :)

> I'd also add that in addition to selling the goods themselves, you can sell
> the vehicle they came in, maybe for quite a lot of money, depending on who
> you know and what kind of vehicle it is in, etc.

Good you bring that up, because that's a good starting point for another
anecdote from our group's now-dead Cyberpirates campaign: the PCs hijacked
a fairly large tanker full of crude oil, killed the crew, found a buyer
for the oil, and gave the tanker away for free with it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Paul J. Adam ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:23:45 +0100
In article <390E32DE.CA4D161E@*************.fr>, Achille Autran
<aautran@*************.fr> writes
>Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 06:05:50 -0500
>From: Jill <jmenning@*******.com>
>To avoid piracy just make sure you ship goods that can't be sold in
>black market. Just to name a few:
>1- basic resources (unrefined oil, minerals, food...)

Popular with pirates - oil sells well.

>3- Objects that can't be handled (cars, industrial machinery...)

Ditto - cars are _very_ salable.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 9
From: Edward Huyer arcanum@*****.com
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 21:03:05 -0400
> In article <390E32DE.CA4D161E@*************.fr>, Achille Autran
> <aautran@*************.fr> writes
> >Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 06:05:50 -0500
> >From: Jill <jmenning@*******.com>
> >To avoid piracy just make sure you ship goods that can't be sold in
> >black market. Just to name a few:
> >1- basic resources (unrefined oil, minerals, food...)
>
> Popular with pirates - oil sells well.
>
> >3- Objects that can't be handled (cars, industrial machinery...)
>
> Ditto - cars are _very_ salable.

I would think that the more traceable a target is, the less suitable a
target it would be. Dangers of having it traced to the pirates/thieves and
such. On the other hand, in some cases easily traceable targets can be
worth much more in the right hands. Knocking off a shipment of semi-secret,
just-finished-first-production-run Ares milspec assault rifles destined for
the Tir can be worth much more than a shipment of AK-97s...if you can find
the right buyer. And can survive long enough to deliver them.

Arcanum
Edward Huyer
arcanum@*****.com
ICQ# 1667646
-----
"There is no spoon."
Message no. 10
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 07:21:47 +0200
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:53:54 +0200

> > I'd also add that in addition to selling the goods themselves, you can sell
> > the vehicle they came in, maybe for quite a lot of money, depending on who
> > you know and what kind of vehicle it is in, etc.
>
> Good you bring that up, because that's a good starting point for another
> anecdote from our group's now-dead Cyberpirates campaign: the PCs hijacked
> a fairly large tanker full of crude oil, killed the crew, found a buyer
> for the oil, and gave the tanker away for free with it...

Oh my ! By fairly large, you mean like, say, 50m long ? 150m ? 300m ?
Or better, since tonnage is the best way to evaluate a ship value,
3000tons ? 50 000T ? 350 000T ? I realized that in my previous post, I
had in mind quite large ships (beyond 50 000T~180m) that are the norm in
transoceanic trade. With these babies, I see a number of problems when
slavaging the load or the ship.

They all turn around the sheer size and value of the thing.
I mean, construction prices start around 80M $/nY and go way beyond for
specialized ships. The cargo is very broadly worth half the ship's
value. Even well below market value, that would be a large sum of cash
to free for a buyer. Which reduce the set of buyers to large corps.
There we get problem 1: wouldn't it be much easier to kill those pirates
and grab the ship than pay them an insane sum ?

And problem 2: ships are a valuable asset that corps won't let go away
without reaction, and will especially track (by statelite) and try to
recover it. If the ship appears to be in another corp possession, the
former owner will issue a nice 'would you please give me my ship back'
form via the corporate court and could rightfully do so. What interest
in buying/seizing another corp's ship then ?

Eventually problem 3: large ships need adequate facilities to unload.
Panamax-style container carrier are crane-less, for example, and need
those large 'protico' cranes. Such a design would be standard IMO for
ships e.g. on the Yokohama-SeaTac line (it is now). Same problem with
roll-on/roll-off, bulk freighters or tankers. As says Cyberpirates!,
p.176: "A generic cargo freighter, the Jorgensen is an exception to the
rule in a day and age when large, specialized haulers like container
ships and roll-on/roll-off ships are the norm."

IMO, raiding small (10 000T and less) tramp freighters, gasoline
tankers, trucks, etc is all right for our average pirate. But larger
than this will get him into more trouble than it is worth. Unless he
likes troubles, of course. :)
However, the pirates could loot part of the cargo, just what is worth
something in small quantities, and get it on their own ship.

Enough rant, I suppose you already got my point. :)
Message no. 11
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 10:13:03 +0200
Edward Huyer wrote:
>
> > In article <390E32DE.CA4D161E@*************.fr>, Achille Autran
> > <aautran@*************.fr> writes
> > >Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 06:05:50 -0500
> > >From: Jill <jmenning@*******.com>
> > >To avoid piracy just make sure you ship goods that can't be sold in
> > >black market. Just to name a few:
> > >1- basic resources (unrefined oil, minerals, food...)
> >
> > Popular with pirates - oil sells well.
> >
> > >3- Objects that can't be handled (cars, industrial machinery...)
> >
> > Ditto - cars are _very_ salable.
>

Maybe not complete cars... There's a huge industry in
stealing/hijacking cars, and selling them to chop shops, who in turn
will strip the car *completely* in a matter of hours, and then sell the
parts, abandoning the empty shell.

I know more than one person who's car was recovered the same day it was
stolen... only to find that there's nothing left but the body and
chassis - even the upholstery had been taken.

In south africa, at least, cars have a pathetic street index - an
enterprising young lad can hijack a R200,000 BMW, and sell it to his
handler for R6000 :-)
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:02:22 +0200
According to Achille Autran, at 7:21 on 5 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> > Good you bring that up, because that's a good starting point for another
> > anecdote from our group's now-dead Cyberpirates campaign: the PCs hijacked
> > a fairly large tanker full of crude oil, killed the crew, found a buyer
> > for the oil, and gave the tanker away for free with it...
>
> Oh my ! By fairly large, you mean like, say, 50m long ? 150m ? 300m ?
> Or better, since tonnage is the best way to evaluate a ship value,
> 3000tons ? 50 000T ? 350 000T ?

IIRC, this was a 20,000-ton ship (or maybe it contained 20,000 tons of
oil, I don't remember). At the time, I just took the first value that
popped into my head, BTW, so it may not be all that accurate IRL.

> They all turn around the sheer size and value of the thing.
> I mean, construction prices start around 80M $/nY and go way beyond for
> specialized ships. The cargo is very broadly worth half the ship's
> value. Even well below market value, that would be a large sum of cash
> to free for a buyer. Which reduce the set of buyers to large corps.
> There we get problem 1: wouldn't it be much easier to kill those pirates
> and grab the ship than pay them an insane sum ?

I let them get away with it, mostly because they gave the ship away as a
present to the buyer. We did some math at the time, using guestimated RL
oil prices of the time, and ended up with a value of about a million nuyen
that the PCs could reasonably get for the oil (this was a bit below the
market price of a shipment of oil of that size).

> And problem 2: ships are a valuable asset that corps won't let go away
> without reaction, and will especially track (by statelite) and try to
> recover it. If the ship appears to be in another corp possession, the
> former owner will issue a nice 'would you please give me my ship back'
> form via the corporate court and could rightfully do so. What interest
> in buying/seizing another corp's ship then ?

It seems to me that it's cheaper to simply change the transponders etc.
than it is to buy a whole new ship... It may be more difficult than that,
of course, but I can see it happening. (One thing you have to be careful
with in SR, IMHO, is not to make security too secure; if you do, there is
no way the PCs can get away with _anything_ at all.)

> IMO, raiding small (10 000T and less) tramp freighters, gasoline
> tankers, trucks, etc is all right for our average pirate. But larger
> than this will get him into more trouble than it is worth. Unless he
> likes troubles, of course. :)

This group never really figured that out, and the campaign ended before
we'd gotten to the point where these pirated had become more than just a
nuissance, so nobody really tried to teach them a lesson. To be honest,
not that they needed any more trouble than they habitually got themselves
into through occasional stupidity ;)

> However, the pirates could loot part of the cargo, just what is worth
> something in small quantities, and get it on their own ship.

How do you transport crude oil on a luxury yacht? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 04:25:08 +0200
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:23:45 +0100
From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>

> >1- basic resources (unrefined oil, minerals, food...)
>
> Popular with pirates - oil sells well.

Diesel oil is valuable, even to just refill your own tanks. Crude oil
however can be sold only at refineries, and isn't worth anything in
small quantities.

> >3- Objects that can't be handled (cars, industrial machinery...)
>
> Ditto - cars are _very_ salable.

On the ground, yes. The problem is, how to get those limos onboard from
the roll-on/roll-off ship ? Hijacking the whole ship brings other
problems, and transfering large objects from ship to ship if the waves
are beyond 1 or 2 meters is VERY tricky. And ro/ros usually don't even
have cranes. That's how I see this, anyway.
Message no. 14
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 04:25:22 +0200
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:02:22 +0200

> IIRC, this was a 20,000-ton ship (or maybe it contained 20,000 tons of
> oil, I don't remember). At the time, I just took the first value that
> popped into my head, BTW, so it may not be all that accurate IRL.
> I let them get away with it, mostly because they gave the ship away as a
> present to the buyer. We did some math at the time, using guestimated RL
> oil prices of the time, and ended up with a value of about a million nuyen
> that the PCs could reasonably get for the oil (this was a bit below the
> market price of a shipment of oil of that size).

Quite a bargain indeed. With a rough evaluation, based on a deadweight
(full) 20 000T tanker, I came up with the oil being worth 5 000 000 nY.
The ship could be worth a least twice that, depending on condition.
That's IMHO the upper limit of what a pirate can viably loot. Above, and
retaliation is worth for the owner.

> It seems to me that it's cheaper to simply change the transponders etc.
> than it is to buy a whole new ship... It may be more difficult than that,
> of course, but I can see it happening. (One thing you have to be careful
> with in SR, IMHO, is not to make security too secure; if you do, there is
> no way the PCs can get away with _anything_ at all.)

I had in mind following the ship's trail by radar or video satelites.
Those supertankers aren't that concealable, are they ?
Concerning security, I agree with you. I usually try to make security
related to the value (wether data, peoples (skill) or physical object)
of what is protected. Then I adjust for playability. But player-wise,
it's a bad idea to go for a too difficult target. Legwork is, as usual,
essential. In a recent game, one player stole SES (that's the Tir-na-nOg
'vegetal tech' corp) patents at Gaeatronics. He came up with a team of
TRC/Tir badasses after him. And got caught, of course. Hopefully, that
was part of his plans...

My comments on this matter were more theoretical than game-oriented,
more in the lines of 'trade is difficult nowadays without appropriate
facilities' than 'piracy is a good way of life'.

> How do you transport crude oil on a luxury yacht? :)

Well, you drink the whisky and fill the bottles ? :p
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:00:17 +0200
According to Achille Autran, at 4:25 on 7 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> Quite a bargain indeed. With a rough evaluation, based on a deadweight
> (full) 20 000T tanker, I came up with the oil being worth 5 000 000 nY.

We did some math and, IIRC, the players decided to ask half the market
price of the oil to the potential buyer. How they eventually managed to
get a sample of the oil into a bar where they were going to meet this
buyer is a story in itself, BTW :)

> The ship could be worth a least twice that, depending on condition.

Yep, and they gave it away... *grin*

> That's IMHO the upper limit of what a pirate can viably loot. Above, and
> retaliation is worth for the owner.

That's more or less what I figured as well. However, I was planning to
have someone come after them anyway because of their way of pirating:
board a ship, kill anyone on board, and sell the whole thing. Not
something the owners can let happen all the time...

> I had in mind following the ship's trail by radar or video satelites.
> Those supertankers aren't that concealable, are they ?

I guess it's possible to do this, but you might run into inter-corp
rivalries. Does the corp that owns the ship, also own enough satellites to
cover the oceans? If not, it will have to buy satellite photographs from
another corp, which may or may not be willing to sell them.

> Concerning security, I agree with you. I usually try to make security
> related to the value (wether data, peoples (skill) or physical object)
> of what is protected. Then I adjust for playability. But player-wise,
> it's a bad idea to go for a too difficult target.

I never said you should always make it possible just because it's the
players doing something :) However, if you use most available security
measures and police investigations techniques, there really isn't a way in
hell for the PCs to do something and get away with it, except by ruling
that the corp (or whatever) being hit doesn't care enough to come after
them, but that's rather unlikely if something important has just been
stolen from them (for example).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 05:37:08 +0200
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:00:17 +0200

> That's more or less what I figured as well. However, I was planning to
> have someone come after them anyway because of their way of pirating:
> board a ship, kill anyone on board, and sell the whole thing. Not
> something the owners can let happen all the time...

Messy work is always a shame. And people aren't worth nothing, if money
is what motivates retaliation. I read somewhere that killed cops cost
the US government one million dollars each, in widow pension and
trainning for the new cop. Probably less in SR, but corps won't let
everybody get killed...
Incindentally, I like games with at least a little moral concern (with a
broad definition for 'moral'-not just Judaeo-Christian). Cold blood
killing is just... unappealing. IMHO.

> I never said you should always make it possible just because it's the
> players doing something :)

I was thinking, players doing something the GM either wants them to do,
or thinks they could possibly achieve. If they start wandering around,
well, logics rule, let's them assume their actions :)

> However, if you use most available security
> measures and police investigations techniques, there really isn't a way in
> hell for the PCs to do something and get away with it, except by ruling
> that the corp (or whatever) being hit doesn't care enough to come after
> them, but that's rather unlikely if something important has just been
> stolen from them (for example).

That's an essential difference between runners and pirates: with piracy,
being stealthy is quite problematic, and you are responsible for what
you steal/do. OTOH, runners can be stealthy ignorant people who don't
own interesting info- no interest in chasing them; or people with good
knowledge- no interest in killing them. At first. A good target choice
is central for pirates, whereas it's the Johnson's job in the shadows.
Conclusion: pirates' players will more probably do stupid choices, since
they are less GM-dependant in their range of action.

Stupidity in the shadows is a very lethal way of life. :)
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 11:12:38 +0200
According to Achille Autran, at 5:37 on 8 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> Messy work is always a shame. And people aren't worth nothing, if money
> is what motivates retaliation. I read somewhere that killed cops cost
> the US government one million dollars each, in widow pension and
> trainning for the new cop. Probably less in SR, but corps won't let
> everybody get killed...

Certainly. The reason I wanted to have someone come after the PCs was
because the corp they hit would want to set an example to other pirates,
though.

> Incindentally, I like games with at least a little moral concern (with a
> broad definition for 'moral'-not just Judaeo-Christian). Cold blood
> killing is just... unappealing. IMHO.

I'm trying to move my current campaign more into the opposite direction,
for a number of reasons, which I won't mention here because one of the
players in the campaign is probably reading this as well, and I don't want
to tip him off about what's really going on.

> I was thinking, players doing something the GM either wants them to do,
> or thinks they could possibly achieve. If they start wandering around,
> well, logics rule, let's them assume their actions :)

I don't mind wandering players; nearly all the adventures I GM these days,
for SR anyway, are improvised based on a few ideas which I usually only
come up with in the half hour it takes me to get to the game session. _I_
often don't even know what I want the players to do, so having them wander
off in some random direction that may not even be related to the run is
not a major problem -- there is always something new to discover.

> That's an essential difference between runners and pirates: with piracy,
> being stealthy is quite problematic, and you are responsible for what
> you steal/do. OTOH, runners can be stealthy ignorant people who don't
> own interesting info- no interest in chasing them; or people with good
> knowledge- no interest in killing them.

That's not what I meant. Shadowrunners have this tendency to commit
crimes, right? Not just against the target of their run, but also against
third parties who happen to get in the way -- for example: runners break
into corp X, security discovers them, a firefight breaks out, runners have
to steal car from citizen Y to escape, citizen Y objects and is executed
on the spot.

As long as everything remains between the corp and the runners, and nobody
important gets caught in the crossfire, they'll probably be able to get
away with it for the reasons you state. But if they kill a half-important
bystander, Lone Star will have an interest in finding them; and with
modern investigations techniques, it's very likely the runners will be
caught -- one of them was bleeding (DNA sampling, ritual sorcery), they
left cartridge cases all over the street (fingerprinting, matching them up
to a firearm), the car they stole had a security transponder, etc.

What I'm saying is that, if you apply most of these sorts of things,
runners simply can't do anything without getting caught.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Jan Jaap van Poelgeest aka nevermelt jjp@******.nl
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:52:58 +0200
Gurth:

> I don't mind wandering players; nearly all the adventures I GM these
days,
> for SR anyway, are improvised based on a few ideas which I usually
only
> come up with in the half hour it takes me to get to the game session.
_I_
> often don't even know what I want the players to do, so having them
wander
> off in some random direction that may not even be related to the run
is
> not a major problem -- there is always something new to discover.

Ack! If players are listening, admitting that you're a free-form GM can
be lethal to the campaign: players tend to enjoy the comfortable idea of
at least a somewhat defined storyline and campaign goal. Actually, I can
remember one campaign where during a particular session my GM screen
fell over and the players saw that I had been GM'ing off a blank sheet
of paper with last session's monster damage levels scribbled in a
corner. At that point it struck them that for the past 8 hours they had
actually been "causing" their own adventure, which apparently overloaded
their mental circuits resulting in a sudden stop of PC activity and a
caught-unawares GM suddenly tossing a random encounter at them to gain
some time to think.. come to think of it, I believe that that little
fight turned out to be the start of a new campaign focus/theme
thingamajig (ahh, the joys of free-form-GM'ing :). Anyway, after that
situation, I've always made sure to have two pages of illegible notes
and hand-drawn diagrams behind my screen, loudly switching the one on
top while nodding sagely every 45 minutes or so ;).


"Now if you'll excuse me, I have some Edammers I intend to stuff into
Ratinac's "Down Under""

Jan Jaap van Poelgeest aka nevermelt, Proud Bearer of a Double Name
Whose First Half Is Always Considered The Complete Name By Ignorant
Foreigners Who Can't Cope With Weird Dutch Naming Traditions.
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 20:15:17 +0200
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest aka ne, at 17:52 on 8 May 00, the word
on the street was...

> Ack! If players are listening, admitting that you're a free-form GM can
> be lethal to the campaign: players tend to enjoy the comfortable idea of
> at least a somewhat defined storyline and campaign goal.

I've freely admitted this fact to the players, and they don't seem to
mind. In fact, it would be a bit hard to miss because I have to pause at
times to think up information that any pre-written adventure (either
bought or home-made) would include:

Me, as fixer: "Someone's been kidnapped, and the family wants to hire
some runners to find him. I decided to come to you."
Players, after accepting the job: "What's the victim's name?"
Me: "Uhh... Mm... Matthew Tilley. Yes. Matthew F. Tilley."

However, that does not mean I don't have an idea what the adventure is
supposed to be about. It does mean that I need to think things through and
invent details when the players are talking amongst themselves, but so far
it has worked well enough.

> Actually, I can remember one campaign where during a particular session
> my GM screen fell over and the players saw that I had been GM'ing off a
> blank sheet of paper with last session's monster damage levels scribbled
> in a corner. At that point it struck them that for the past 8 hours they
> had actually been "causing" their own adventure, which apparently
> overloaded their mental circuits resulting in a sudden stop of PC
> activity

Strange reaction, IMHO... I'd much prefer an adventure where I, as a
player, can do whatever the hell I like without some GM looking over my
shoulder to nudge us in the right direction again when we stray from the
pre-planned route. OTOH, that tends to make adventues rather long, as we
go off on all sorts of tangents that don't have the first thing to do with
the adventure :) Skiing vampires come to mind...

> and a caught-unawares GM suddenly tossing a random encounter at them to
> gain some time to think.. come to think of it, I believe that that
> little fight turned out to be the start of a new campaign focus/theme
> thingamajig (ahh, the joys of free-form-GM'ing :). Anyway, after that
> situation, I've always made sure to have two pages of illegible notes
> and hand-drawn diagrams behind my screen, loudly switching the one on
> top while nodding sagely every 45 minutes or so ;).

I've got a palmtop computer which I put behind the GM screen and do stuff
with from time to time -- mainly making notes of what's happened so far,
or look up some names for near-future use. The players, though, won't know
if I'm looking up some stuff that has to do with the adventure, or am
playing Reversi :)

> Jan Jaap van Poelgeest aka nevermelt, Proud Bearer of a Double Name
> Whose First Half Is Always Considered The Complete Name By Ignorant
> Foreigners Who Can't Cope With Weird Dutch Naming Traditions.

At least you're not one of those Brabanders who almost invariably have at
least four names, one of which will be Maria :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 12:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
> I've got a palmtop computer which I put behind the
> GM screen and do stuff
> with from time to time -- mainly making notes of
> what's happened so far,
> or look up some names for near-future use. The
> players, though, won't know
> if I'm looking up some stuff that has to do with the
> adventure, or am
> playing Reversi :)

Ahhhhhhhhh!
One guy who GMs sometimes uses a Laptop (or his palm
pilot) to GM with (he has dice rollers I think on
both) will sometimes sit there behind the GM screen
looking intently at the laptop or palm and just by his
face I can tell what he's doing... Especially when he
starts missing things, like the troll decides he wants
to crash through the window of the shop we're trying
to break through and he just keeps playing...It
usually ends up with me or one of the other guys
threatening him with bodily harm. It's a bad idea.

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 21
From: Paul J. Adam ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 00:51:51 +0100
In article <3914D404.FF7A1CD5@*************.fr>, Achille Autran
<aautran@*************.fr> writes
>Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:23:45 +0100
>From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>
>> Popular with pirates - oil sells well.
>
>Diesel oil is valuable, even to just refill your own tanks. Crude oil
>however can be sold only at refineries, and isn't worth anything in
>small quantities.

Once you're talking thousands of tons - even a small tankerload - then
you've got a rather salable commodity, though. Plenty of Third World
countries with energy deficits willing to buy cheap for few questions, a
few embargoed countries who don't care _whose_ oil it is...

>> Ditto - cars are _very_ salable.
>
>On the ground, yes. The problem is, how to get those limos onboard from
>the roll-on/roll-off ship ? Hijacking the whole ship brings other
>problems, and transfering large objects from ship to ship if the waves
>are beyond 1 or 2 meters is VERY tricky. And ro/ros usually don't even
>have cranes. That's how I see this, anyway.

Ro/Ros can manage at fairly primitive port facilities (that's why the US
keeps a few fast Ro/Ro ships loaded and prepositioned, to rush supplies
to a warzone)

Also, today, a lot of piracy takes place with national connivance
(China, for instance...) which greatly eases the problems of finding a
port.


Of course, a lot depends on the ship. Attack a UCAS, British or
corporate-flagged merchantman and you'll attract a lot of attention.

Attack a rustbucket freighter flagged in Cyprus or Panama or Liberia...
and probably the biggest problem you'll have is the insurance company
coming after you to recoup some losses.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 22
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:57:12 -0700 (PDT)
> "Now if you'll excuse me, I have some Edammers I
intend to stuff into Ratinac's "Down Under""
>
> Jan Jaap van Poelgeest aka nevermelt, Proud Bearer
of a Double Name Whose First Half Is Always Considered
The Complete Name By Ignorant Foreigners Who Can't
Cope With Weird Dutch Naming Traditions.

That's Rand, Jan Jaap - and I can cope. I've just
never seen it before. Some I'm just iggerant. Never
claimed otherwise. :)

*Doc' goes at Jan Jaap with a block of Bega Tasty...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 23
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 02:51:15 EDT
In a message dated Sun, 7 May 2000 11:37:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Achille Autran
<aautran@*************.fr> writes:

<< Messy work is always a shame. And people aren't worth nothing, if money is what
motivates retaliation. I read somewhere that killed cops cost the US government one
million dollars each, in widow pension and trainning for the new cop. >>


..Just learned in my sociology class: The U.S. GAO (Government Accounting Office--bean
counters) rates U.S, citizens to be worth between $500k and 2 mil per person. Nice to know
that I'm worth something...
Cash
Message no. 24
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:56:19 +0200
According to Raveness Ravensbane, at 12:48 on 8 May 00, the word on the
street was...

> One guy who GMs sometimes uses a Laptop (or his palm
> pilot) to GM with (he has dice rollers I think on
> both)

I haven't found a good SR dice roller for a Palm Pilot, because they all
seem to display only the total roll instead of the individual dice. (BTW,
I don't suppose there is anyone here who knows how to program for these
things?)

> will sometimes sit there behind the GM screen
> looking intently at the laptop or palm and just by his
> face I can tell what he's doing... Especially when he
> starts missing things, like the troll decides he wants
> to crash through the window of the shop we're trying
> to break through and he just keeps playing...It
> usually ends up with me or one of the other guys
> threatening him with bodily harm. It's a bad idea.

I didn't say I _did_ play games on the thing when I'm GMing, did I? All I
said is that the other players won't be able to tell :) This sort of thing
(and not just with a PDA) is quickly becoming one of my favorite tactics
for making one or more of the players nervous -- do something which
confirms their (faulty) assumptions. Like leafing through a Vampire
rulebook, rolling some dice, and telling one of the players he feels
something is wrong about the situation when they're talking to someone the
group suspects of being a vampire...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 07:58:21 -0600
Gurth wrote:

>I haven't found a good SR dice roller for a Palm Pilot, because they all
>seem to display only the total roll instead of the individual dice.

Try

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/9565/

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."
Message no. 26
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:24:08 -0700
> From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>

>
> I haven't found a good SR dice roller for a Palm Pilot, because they all
> seem to display only the total roll instead of the individual dice. (BTW,
> I don't suppose there is anyone here who knows how to program for these
> things?)
>

DicePro. I don't know where to find it anymore (I downloaded it
a couple of years ago and promptly forgot where I found it) but
you should be able to find it by searching the web for PalmPilot
sites and DicePro. It's not specifically designed for SR but it
does have some nifty SR features (like you can tell it the target
number and how many dice to roll and it'll tell you how many
successes you got) and you can see the individual dice rolls.

<wanders off to check web>
<wanders back>

Try this:
http://idirect.pdacentral.com/palm/preview/028-005-002-076C.html


HTH,
--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<
Message no. 27
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:41:56 +0200
According to Rat, at 8:24 on 9 May 00, the word on the street was...

> DicePro. I don't know where to find it anymore (I downloaded it
> a couple of years ago and promptly forgot where I found it) but
> you should be able to find it by searching the web for PalmPilot
> sites and DicePro. It's not specifically designed for SR but it
> does have some nifty SR features (like you can tell it the target
> number and how many dice to roll and it'll tell you how many
> successes you got) and you can see the individual dice rolls.

What I've got now is Roll Em (http://www.suki.short.net), another generic
diceroller in which you can set TNs and number of dice to roll, together
with success conditions and lots of other stuff. Unfortunately, you can't
view both the number of successes and the individual dice rolls at the
same time, so it's not all that handy for use with SR.

> http://idirect.pdacentral.com/palm/preview/028-005-002-076C.html

Thanks, also to everyone else who suggested a URL that I now need to check
out :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Decentralization and Trade
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 03:58:25 +0200
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 00:51:51 +0100
From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>

> Once you're talking thousands of tons - even a small tankerload - then
> you've got a rather salable commodity, though. Plenty of Third World
> countries with energy deficits willing to buy cheap for few questions, a
> few embargoed countries who don't care _whose_ oil it is...

The problem is, there are almost no small tankers loaded with crude oil.
Seizing a supertanker brings troubles previously discussed, and unless
your own pirate ship is a tanker, you can't tranfer onboard any valuable
quantity.
Then, third world very poor countries (that's POOR, yes) I visited
didn't even had refineries; they imported kerosen, diesel oil and
gasoline with 5000-10000 tons tankers (multi-purpose chemicals
freighters, nowadays). Seizing THESE ships is however very profitable. I
believe oil piracy turns around that, not crude oil. I may be wrong. :)

> Ro/Ros can manage at fairly primitive port facilities (that's why the US
> keeps a few fast Ro/Ro ships loaded and prepositioned, to rush supplies
> to a warzone)

I was thinking about those large japanese Ro/Ros that hold thousands of
vehicules. 200m long, 30m high, very ugly and quite impressive. Smaller
ones usually have a short draught and, I agree, higher versatility. You
still have to seize them, though.

> Also, today, a lot of piracy takes place with national connivance
> (China, for instance...) which greatly eases the problems of finding a
> port.
>
> Of course, a lot depends on the ship. Attack a UCAS, British or
> corporate-flagged merchantman and you'll attract a lot of attention.
>
> Attack a rustbucket freighter flagged in Cyprus or Panama or Liberia...
> and probably the biggest problem you'll have is the insurance company
> coming after you to recoup some losses.

With corporations setting their own security standards with their own
flags, complacency (?) flags (I hate my dictionary, it lacks anything I
really need...) won't have much use. IMHO, sea trade is more separated
in two in 2060 than today. On the high end, you have corporate and
wealthy countries vessels, large and suited for operations in equipped
ports (that's a sort of protection). It constitutes the great majority
of trade's tonnage. Quite unaccessable for pirates.
Then you have tramp freighting, poor countries, semi-smuggling, private
shipowners and high cost insurance policies. This is high risk business,
for it is pirates' usual playing ground.
Another option for pirates would be to have a mid-sized ship (like a 60m
supply ship), assault large ships and loot a small part of their cargo-
like transferring a few containers loaded with, say, TV sets. You've got
handling problems, but otherwise this seems viable.

If I ever run a pirates campaign, I would probably add a few more shades
of gray. Just to say this is theoretical, and SR-playability didn't
matter.

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