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Message no. 1
From: Daniel Sauve ahsdreamwalker@****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:24:37 -0400
Pardon if this has been posted...

http://www.decipher.com/fasanews2.html


Daniel S. \ICQ #34560540
Kristling Dreamwalker, \AIM: Kristling
Super Dynamic Funky Urban \ Fanfic mail:
kdreamwalker@*******.com
Elf Shaman of Tomorrow! \ anything else:
ahsdreamwalker@****.com
After Hours Studios: http://www.lit.org/ahs/
Music: Temporarily down.
Message no. 2
From: Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 01:41:18 +0300
Daniel Sauve wrote:
>
> Pardon if this has been posted...
>
> http://www.decipher.com/fasanews2.html
>

Damn I hate it when a Card Game company buys an RPG company... I hope
FASA won't end up like TSR after WOC bought it...
:-(

Cybertroll

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Message no. 3
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 16:07:01 -0700
>> Pardon if this has been posted...

It has. ;)

>> http://www.decipher.com/fasanews2.html

>Damn I hate it when a Card Game company buys an RPG company... I hope
>FASA won't end up like TSR after WOC bought it...
>:-(

Everyone I had a chance to speak to at GenCon was QUITE hopeful about the
Decipher / FASA deal, especially since Decipher has no intention of moving
or trying to change what FASA does best.

If you want more information, you can comb through the list archives, or
read the forums that Decipher has set up on their site.


--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery - http://members.home.com/dvixen
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:16:19 EDT
In a message dated 9/6/1999 6:08:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dvixen@****.com writes:

>
> If you want more information, you can comb through the list archives, or
> read the forums that Decipher has set up on their site.

Actually, the Decipher Forum concerning FASA I can't find anymore. Does
anyone know the addy for it offhand?

-K
Message no. 5
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:31:18 -0400 (EDT)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:16 PM 9/6/99 -0400, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
:Actually, the Decipher Forum concerning FASA I can't find anymore.
:Does anyone know the addy for it offhand?

According to Decipher's FASA Press Release page, the address is:

http://calder.decipher.com/cgi-bin/bbs?sound-off2

However, Decipher does not seem to be maintaining the board anymore.

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C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

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Message no. 6
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 00:17:40 -0400
>Damn I hate it when a Card Game company buys an RPG company... I hope
>FASA won't end up like TSR after WOC bought it...

Call me crazy, but I hope they do.
I'd love to see FASA shed the dead weight, put products out on schedule,
expand their web-presence, and increase the sales on their popular lines
like SR.
Oh yeah, I'd really like to see their profits increase like TSR's too! ;-)

Sorry. I'm just sick of everyone saying that TSR/WotC is the "Evil-Corp" of
gaming.
It just ain't so.
They make money, and they increase competition.
It's simple economics.
This stuff is good for the industry people!

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 06:57:32 -0500
> Sorry. I'm just sick of everyone saying that TSR/WotC is the
> "Evil-Corp" of gaming.
> It just ain't so.
> They make money, and they increase competition.
> It's simple economics.
> This stuff is good for the industry people!

HEAR, HEAR!! Maybe someday this'll sink in, though I doubt I'll live to see
it....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Christopher Pratt valen@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:07:29 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven A. Tinner <bluewizard@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: Deciper press release link


> >Damn I hate it when a Card Game company buys an RPG company... I hope
> >FASA won't end up like TSR after WOC bought it...
>
> Call me crazy, but I hope they do.
> I'd love to see FASA shed the dead weight, put products out on schedule,
> expand their web-presence, and increase the sales on their popular lines
> like SR.
> Oh yeah, I'd really like to see their profits increase like TSR's too! ;-)
>
> Sorry. I'm just sick of everyone saying that TSR/WotC is the "Evil-Corp"
of
> gaming.
> It just ain't so.
> They make money, and they increase competition.
> It's simple economics.
> This stuff is good for the industry people!

I can't help but agree, I WotC hadn't bought TSR, their probibly wouldn't be
a TSR right now

>
> Steven A. Tinner
> bluewizard@*****.com
> http://listen.to/tinner
> "God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
>


"Windows 95: 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to
an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor,
written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition." -
Unknown
Christopher Pratt
valen@*******.com
Message no. 9
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 19:41:03 GMT
> >
> > Call me crazy, but I hope they do.
> > I'd love to see FASA shed the dead weight, put products out on schedule,

Om schedule? HA¡ my friend I´ve played Star Wars CCG sice the begining no
expansion has come out in time, in expanding the WEB I also hope they do,
You cant imagine how hard is to get a SR book here in México, on the
contrary AD&D is everywere. Hopefully this Mergure will help to expand their
fronteirs. Sometimes I do not understand many of the mails because I havent
read the books, Im still waiting for my SR3 to get here.

ATTE el MORRIS

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 10
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:05:54 +1000
At 01:41 7/09/99 +0300, Cybertroll wrote:
>Daniel Sauve wrote:
>>
>> Pardon if this has been posted...
>>
>> http://www.decipher.com/fasanews2.html
>>
>
>Damn I hate it when a Card Game company buys an RPG company... I hope
>FASA won't end up like TSR after WOC bought it...
>:-(
>

What, cut out the lines which aren't selling and look to introduce a new
edition which has many of the things people have been screaming about for
years as being missing in D&D?
--
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 11
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:23:07 -0400
> >Damn I hate it when a Card Game company buys an RPG company... I hope
> >FASA won't end up like TSR after WOC bought it...
> >:-(
> >
>
> What, cut out the lines which aren't selling and look to introduce a new
> edition which has many of the things people have been screaming about for
> years as being missing in D&D?

Gee, I was under the impression that more than enough of that was happening
at FASA; dropping a great product [Earthdawn] and releasing a version of an
existing game that does little but insult my intelligence.

Yeah, it's all about the dollar signs, but brand loyalty counts for
something...doesn't it?
Message no. 12
From: Paolo Marcucci thatpaolo@****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:41:43 -0700
> Gee, I was under the impression that more than enough of that was
> happening
> at FASA; dropping a great product [Earthdawn] and releasing a
> version of an
> existing game that does little but insult my intelligence.
>
> Yeah, it's all about the dollar signs, but brand loyalty counts for
> something...doesn't it?

Yes. Especially when there was the very real possibility of FASA to close
down operations. So, no more products.

At this point, we have two great RPGs (Shadowrun and Mechwarrior), a nice
tabletop game (Crimson Skies) and two wargames (Battletech and Vor). Note
that ALL these games (except Battletech) were newly released or got a
serious revamp this year, when the rest of the gaming industry is suffering
(witness the WOTC booth at GenCon, a fraction of the size of '97).

This means business sense, all about dollars and nothing else. As a
byproduct of their enrichment, we got five games.

Earthdawn was not a great product. Nice and well done, but hardly innovating
and jumped right in the fantasy arena, dominated by TSR. Bad move, if you
don't have the money of WOTC behind you...

Shadowrun 3rd ed. can be read as a unneccesary update for us, experienced
role players going to games with a rulebook under an arm and a 3 ring binder
of house rules under the other, but...

But. In the first 12 months, SR3 outsold Battletech. The ENTIRE line. There
is a line of Shadowrun jewelry. A movie was made out of the game (I know, I
know, The Matrix was not directly from Renny's story, but we have been
confirmed that the initial idea was exactly that and the movie went into
another direction after some *problems*). As Mike said, the public awareness
of the game is growing at an amazing rate. I wouldn't call this a failure...

Internet companies go for IPOs to raise breathing funds, gaming companies
cannot. So there is this trend about merging that made TSR a brand new
company, and it will be this merge (if it goes on) won't be necessary to
"save" FASA from death, but will give them some more room to play either in
the development of new products and in marketing them.

I won't go into the web site redesign, 'cause that thing still hurts me...
:)

Dr. Doo^H^H^H^H^H^H Paolo
Message no. 13
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:40:53 +0200
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 08 September 1999 05:31
Subject: Re: Deciper press release link


>> >Damn I hate it when a Card Game company buys an RPG company... I
hope
>> >FASA won't end up like TSR after WOC bought it...
>> >:-(
>> >
>>
>> What, cut out the lines which aren't selling and look to introduce
a new
>> edition which has many of the things people have been screaming
about for
>> years as being missing in D&D?
>
>Gee, I was under the impression that more than enough of that was
happening
>at FASA; dropping a great product [Earthdawn] and releasing a version
of an
>existing game that does little but insult my intelligence.

Earthdawn wasnt all that great to begin with. As evidinced by poor
sales.

I get the impression that you feel that SR3 was not needed. Think
again

- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 14
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:54:46 -0400
> But. In the first 12 months, SR3 outsold Battletech. The ENTIRE line.
There
> is a line of Shadowrun jewelry. A movie was made out of the game (I know,
I
> know, The Matrix was not directly from Renny's story, but we have been
> confirmed that the initial idea was exactly that and the movie went into
> another direction after some *problems*). As Mike said, the public
awareness
> of the game is growing at an amazing rate. I wouldn't call this a
failure...

Only one point: does anyone else have corroborating evidence of this
Matrix/SR link?
Message no. 15
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:10:44 -0500
> Only one point: does anyone else have corroborating evidence of this
> Matrix/SR link?

Take a listen to the Secrets of Shadowrun seminar, conveniently posted at
http://shadowrun.html.com/tss/gc-sos.html for your downloading and listening
pleasure. Mike talks about it somewhere in the first hour.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 16
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:12:10 -0400
> Earthdawn wasnt all that great to begin with. As evidinced by poor
> sales.

There are a lot of things that are worthwhile that are not popular. Just
look at me, for example. Just because the line didn't sell doesn't mean that
it wasn't a good game. In the end, I guess it's an issue of personal
opinion. Now, I didn't play the game that often, but I resent the loss of
opportunity to learn more about the past of the Shadowrun world. The return
of the Horrors, the direction magic is going, and, god forbid, the past of
Aina and Harlequin, which I now have to read in French since no English
printings will be available.
Message no. 17
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:56:17 -0700
> There are a lot of things that are worthwhile that are not popular. Just
> look at me, for example. Just because the line didn't sell doesn't mean that
> it wasn't a good game.

Absolutely..As for me..Other than the unweildy magic system..I very
much like ED.. ANd things like popularity are ever changing things
made of quicksilver..It has been my observation that ED has been
gaining in popularity even though the newcomers know very well that
the line is no more..And many many folks I have talked to are quite
upset at the loss of the system..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Who Do You Trust? And, Who Do You Serve? - Galen
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 18
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:56:29 -0400
At 11:12 PM 9/8/99 -0400, abortion_engine wrote these timeless words:
>> Earthdawn wasnt all that great to begin with. As evidinced by poor
>> sales.
>
>There are a lot of things that are worthwhile that are not popular. Just
>look at me, for example. Just because the line didn't sell doesn't mean that
>it wasn't a good game. In the end, I guess it's an issue of personal
>opinion. Now, I didn't play the game that often, but I resent the loss of
>opportunity to learn more about the past of the Shadowrun world. The return
>of the Horrors, the direction magic is going, and, god forbid, the past of
>Aina and Harlequin, which I now have to read in French since no English
>printings will be available.
>
You resent it? Why?? It wasn't a personal attack at you or the gamers in
general. Geez....

Now, to set the record straight on this (and god knows this won't be the
first time nor the last that this will have to be said), the ED/SR link
was, well... badly done. It was something that got thrown into the mix
AFTER Earthdawn was written, and unfortunately, it made the link an awkward
one, at best. Plus, that link hampered SR, because any time something
happened in Shadowrun, everyone went rushing to find an ED precedent, or
associated it with the IE or Horrors (And rightly so during Dowd's run,
especially toward the end :/). And anything in ED, everyone started
looking for in Shadowrun.

Earthdawn was a good game on it's own. And had it been well thought out,
the ED/SR link could have been cool. But, things have progressed to the
state they're currently in for two reasons:

1) Earthdawn didn;t sell. There's nothing that can be done about that.
FASA tried everything they could to get people interested in the game,
INCLUDING giving away the rules on CD-ROM. In the end, it wasn;t enough,
and the game went the way of the Dodo, and will probably never get
resureccted. Sad, but true.

2) There was a time in Shadowrun (late 95 or so) when if you mentioned
Immortal Elves or Horrors, most Shadowrun Players wanted to slap you (And
you long termers, don;t deny it. I remember a LOT of complaints on this
list back when I first joined in 96, and that was after the FASA IE and
Horror stuff was dying off). It got to be a VERY overused cliche in
Shadowrun. Anything big happened, it either meant that the Horrors were
coming, Harley was involved, or both. Even the bugs, which by themsleves
got way overused, were Horror related. And that point was the LOW point
for Shadowrun, sales wise. Harlequin the first was a very neat adventure.
Harley's Back was, IMO, kinda dumb and pointless... Interesting idea, but...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 19
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:23:44 -0400 (EDT)
> > Earthdawn wasnt all that great to begin with. As evidinced by poor
> > sales.

Well, as in most things, sales do not equal quality (just look at the
software industry for prime examples).

ED had the misfortune of being released in 1993, 'the year of the rpg'.
It had some serious competition including Mage (which outsold Vampire)
and at least 6 other games. If it had come out in 92 or 94 it would have
had more breathing room.
Message no. 20
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:31:32 -0400 (EDT)
Bull wrote:
> Now, to set the record straight on this ..., the ED/SR link
> was, well... badly done. It was something that got thrown into the mix
> AFTER Earthdawn was written, and unfortunately, it made the link an awkward
> one, at best. Plus, that link hampered SR, because any time something
> happened in Shadowrun, everyone went rushing to find an ED precedent, or
> associated it with the IE or Horrors (And rightly so during Dowd's run,
> especially toward the end :/). And anything in ED, everyone started
> looking for in Shadowrun.

I'll have to disagree with you here, Bull. (just cuz I can :))
I think FASA shouldn't have worried about that one. If the fans saw
something hiding behind every plot element, so what? I personally never
thought the connection was omni-present. Sure, they needed to pay some
attention to it, but I hope they didn't pull their hair out over it.

Part of the problem was the infamous Carl Sergeant transition, which
did make a big deal over the ED connection.


> 1) Earthdawn didn;t sell. There's nothing that can be done about that.
> FASA tried everything they could to get people interested in the game,
> INCLUDING giving away the rules on CD-ROM. In the end, it wasn;t enough,
> and the game went the way of the Dodo,

Yeah. Though it was selling, just not making enough money for FASA. Sales
picked up after the CD-ROM. I guess FASA management decided they could
make more money with miniatures games. Ner.


> 2) There was a time in Shadowrun (late 95 or so) when if you mentioned
> Immortal Elves or Horrors, most Shadowrun Players wanted to slap you (And
> you long termers, don;t deny it. I remember a LOT of complaints on this
> list back when I first joined in 96, and that was after the FASA IE and
> Horror stuff was dying off). It got to be a VERY overused cliche in
> Shadowrun. Anything big happened, it either meant that the Horrors were
> coming, Harley was involved, or both. Even the bugs, which by themsleves
> got way overused, were Horror related.

Again, I think this was more a player perception than reality. I for one
never saw it. Possibly b/c my group ignored the bug plotline.
Message no. 21
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:45:32 -0400
> At 11:12 PM 9/8/99 -0400, abortion_engine wrote these timeless words:
> >> Earthdawn wasnt all that great to begin with. As evidinced by poor
> >> sales.
> >
> >There are a lot of things that are worthwhile that are not popular. Just
> >look at me, for example. Just because the line didn't sell doesn't mean
that
> >it wasn't a good game. In the end, I guess it's an issue of personal
> >opinion. Now, I didn't play the game that often, but I resent the loss of
> >opportunity to learn more about the past of the Shadowrun world. The
return
> >of the Horrors, the direction magic is going, and, god forbid, the past
of
> >Aina and Harlequin, which I now have to read in French since no English
> >printings will be available.
> >
> You resent it? Why?? It wasn't a personal attack at you or the gamers in
> general. Geez....

I resent many things that are not personally related to me. Perhaps I am not
using the word in the same way you are. [That tends to happen to me a lot.]

> Now, to set the record straight on this (and god knows this won't be the
> first time nor the last that this will have to be said), the ED/SR link
> was, well... badly done. It was something that got thrown into the mix
> AFTER Earthdawn was written, and unfortunately, it made the link an
awkward
> one, at best. Plus, that link hampered SR, because any time something
> happened in Shadowrun, everyone went rushing to find an ED precedent, or
> associated it with the IE or Horrors (And rightly so during Dowd's run,
> especially toward the end :/). And anything in ED, everyone started
> looking for in Shadowrun.
>
> Earthdawn was a good game on it's own. And had it been well thought out,
> the ED/SR link could have been cool. But, things have progressed to the
> state they're currently in for two reasons:

I guess I just don't agree. At all.

> 1) Earthdawn didn;t sell. There's nothing that can be done about that.
> FASA tried everything they could to get people interested in the game,
> INCLUDING giving away the rules on CD-ROM. In the end, it wasn;t enough,
> and the game went the way of the Dodo, and will probably never get
> resureccted. Sad, but true.

This I agree with. But I'm used to the things I like being unpopular. With
the exception of the American television show "Friends," it's always true.
[I am being serious, in case anyone wanted to know.]

> 2) There was a time in Shadowrun (late 95 or so) when if you mentioned
> Immortal Elves or Horrors, most Shadowrun Players wanted to slap you (And
> you long termers, don;t deny it. I remember a LOT of complaints on this
> list back when I first joined in 96, and that was after the FASA IE and
> Horror stuff was dying off). It got to be a VERY overused cliche in
> Shadowrun. Anything big happened, it either meant that the Horrors were
> coming, Harley was involved, or both. Even the bugs, which by themsleves
> got way overused, were Horror related. And that point was the LOW point
> for Shadowrun, sales wise. Harlequin the first was a very neat adventure.
> Harley's Back was, IMO, kinda dumb and pointless... Interesting idea,
but...

Well, that does it. I'm not like most SR players. Damn. All that hard work
for nothing.
Message no. 22
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:46:54 -0400
> one, at best. Plus, that link hampered SR, because any time something
> happened in Shadowrun, everyone went rushing to find an ED precedent, or
> associated it with the IE or Horrors (And rightly so during Dowd's run,
> especially toward the end :/). And anything in ED, everyone started

Oh, and I just wanted to say, after Findley, we worshiped Dowd in the
highest. We don't worship Mike Mulvill. Sorry.
Message no. 23
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:03:39 -0400
At 11:31 AM 9/9/99 -0400, Richard Tomasso wrote these timeless words:

>I'll have to disagree with you here, Bull. (just cuz I can :))
>
Hey Now... Aren;t you supposed to stick by me and be my right hand man
here, Rich? :]

>I think FASA shouldn't have worried about that one. If the fans saw
>something hiding behind every plot element, so what? I personally never
>thought the connection was omni-present. Sure, they needed to pay some
>attention to it, but I hope they didn't pull their hair out over it.
>
Well, I didn't mean it was a problem for FASA... but i know that's one
thing I saw a LOT when I first joined up on this list 3 years ago... Every
SR product that came out got thoroughly analuyzed for any ED refrerence,
and what it meant, and how the IE's Dragons, and who knows what else were
connected...

FASA may not have been concerned with it, but the players certainly were,
and I think that took away from Shadowrun as an entity... More often than
not, I saw people looking at Shadowrun as "Earthdawn's Future" rather than
the other way around...

Which makes me wonder why ED didn't do better... Well, I have my thoughts
on that (Great World, but the system left a little to be desired), but...

>Part of the problem was the infamous Carl Sergeant transition, which
>did make a big deal over the ED connection.
>
I can agree there, though the problems started before that...

>> 1) Earthdawn didn;t sell. There's nothing that can be done about that.
>> FASA tried everything they could to get people interested in the game,
>> INCLUDING giving away the rules on CD-ROM. In the end, it wasn;t enough,
>> and the game went the way of the Dodo,
>
>Yeah. Though it was selling, just not making enough money for FASA. Sales
>picked up after the CD-ROM. I guess FASA management decided they could
>make more money with miniatures games. Ner.
>
I think you're being a bit hard on the Miniatures game, really... From
what I've heard, sales didn;t pick up that much after the CD-ROM
giveaway... they did a little, but... Unfortunately, the problem was FASA
compared the sales for ED to SR and BT... Battletech has always been one
of the leaders in it's field, and always been the best selling thing for
FASA (Until this last year when SR whipped it, at least :)). And SR is,
well... Shadowrun. Shadowrun's a wierd game in that it created it's own
niche and really it's own genre, and has managed to sell well and create a
huge following.

Earthdawn's following was VERY loyal, but unfortuantely just not big enough.

Wierdly enough, Earthdawn's sales really picked up AFTER the line got
discontinued...

>> 2) There was a time in Shadowrun (late 95 or so) when if you mentioned
>> Immortal Elves or Horrors, most Shadowrun Players wanted to slap you (And
>> you long termers, don;t deny it. I remember a LOT of complaints on this
>> list back when I first joined in 96, and that was after the FASA IE and
>> Horror stuff was dying off). It got to be a VERY overused cliche in
>> Shadowrun. Anything big happened, it either meant that the Horrors were
>> coming, Harley was involved, or both. Even the bugs, which by themsleves
>> got way overused, were Horror related.
>
>Again, I think this was more a player perception than reality. I for one
>never saw it. Possibly b/c my group ignored the bug plotline.
>
I agree, but... If you look at the product and novels and everything to
come out for a couple of years there, everything had some sort of Great
Dragon, Immortal Elf, and/or Horror throwing it's ancient weight around.
It was really interesting for a while... But eventually, it got old...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 24
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippage(TM)>
> Part of the problem was the infamous Carl Sergeant transition, which
did make a big deal over the ED connection.
<Snippola(TM)>

Eh? Elaborate, please.

As Carl Sergeant is one half of the Terrible Twins, he happens to be
one of my least favourite SR people ever. So I do enjoy hearing
anything bad about him.

*Doc' smiles evilly. "I'm like that."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 25
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 21:45:22 -0700
At 09:28 PM 09/09/99 , Rand Ratinac annoyed me by writing:
><Snippage(TM)>
>> Part of the problem was the infamous Carl Sergeant transition, which
>did make a big deal over the ED connection.
><Snippola(TM)>
>
>Eh? Elaborate, please.
>
>As Carl Sergeant is one half of the Terrible Twins, he happens to be
>one of my least favourite SR people ever. So I do enjoy hearing
>anything bad about him.

NOT on the list, unless you want GridSec beating you to a pulp behind the
scenes.
--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery - http://members.home.com/dvixen
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 26
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:00:47 -0700 (PDT)
> ><Snippage(TM)>
> >> Part of the problem was the infamous Carl Sergeant transition,
which did make a big deal over the ED connection.
> ><Snippola(TM)>
> >
> >Eh? Elaborate, please.
> >
> >As Carl Sergeant is one half of the Terrible Twins, he happens to be
one of my least favourite SR people ever. So I do enjoy hearing
anything bad about him.
>
> NOT on the list, unless you want GridSec beating you to a pulp behind
the scenes.
> Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery -

*Doc' sulks. "You guys are no fun."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 27
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:19:52 -0700
> Earthdawn wasnt all that great to begin with. As evidinced by poor
> sales.

Poor sales are not evidence that a game is bad. Is the best game the one
that sells the best? I don't think so, but maybe Magic and D+D fans would
care to differ.

Mongoose
Message no. 28
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:09:59 +0200
From: Sebastian Wiers <m0ng005e@*********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 10 September 1999 12:09
Subject: Re: Deciper press release link


>
>> Earthdawn wasnt all that great to begin with. As evidinced by poor
>> sales.
>
> Poor sales are not evidence that a game is bad. Is the best game
the one
>that sells the best? I don't think so, but maybe Magic and D+D fans
would
>care to differ.
>
>Mongoose


Well, I am of the opinion that SR3 is a good game, possiblt the best
to have emerged in the last year.
I believe thats its sales figures bear this out. Also I have played
most of the CCGs out there and still enjoy MtG the most. Go figure. My
point with Earthdawn was that it just was not going to survive beacuse
gamers were not buying it. That means they were not interested and
that the game was dead in the water. I'm pretty sure FASA could have
kept the line alive and even turned it around with enough effort.. but
they seem to have enough on their plates as it is. I strongly believe
that in this market, the good stuff sells and the bad stuff gets axed.
It has happened to countless games over the years and the good ones
are still with us. Coincidence?

- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 29
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:15:32 +1000
At 09:40 8/09/99 +0200, Bruce wrote:
>
>Earthdawn wasnt all that great to begin with. As evidinced by poor
>sales.

If sales make something great AD&D and Vampire are better than SR.
And Rifts is better than Ars Magica...
>
>I get the impression that you feel that SR3 was not needed. Think
>again
>
Not needed, but useful would be my view of it.
--
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 30
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:12:39 -0400 (EDT)
Rand Ratinac wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think you need to fix some setting on your mailer to send your name as
plain text.


> > Part of the problem was the infamous Carl Sergeant transition, which
> > did make a big deal over the ED connection.
>
> Eh? Elaborate, please.

Carl wanted to kick up the mana curve and bring in the Horrors, among
other things. Lets put it this way, if you hated Tir na nOg, SR would not
be your favorite game anymore.


> As Carl Sergeant is one half of the Terrible Twins

He is? Who's the other one? I thought the Terrible Twins were ... the
freelancers formerly working for FASA. (unless that have another nickname)


> So I do enjoy hearing anything bad about him.

Dvixen said no, so sorry. Wouldn't want her to kick my ass or anything. :)
Message no. 31
From: Christopher Pratt valen@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:20:47 -0400
> >> 1) Earthdawn didn;t sell. There's nothing that can be done about
that.
> >> FASA tried everything they could to get people interested in the game,
> >> INCLUDING giving away the rules on CD-ROM. In the end, it wasn;t
enough,
> >> and the game went the way of the Dodo,
> >
> >Yeah. Though it was selling, just not making enough money for FASA. Sales
> >picked up after the CD-ROM. I guess FASA management decided they could
> >make more money with miniatures games. Ner.
> >
> I think you're being a bit hard on the Miniatures game, really... From
> what I've heard, sales didn;t pick up that much after the CD-ROM
> giveaway... they did a little, but... Unfortunately, the problem was
FASA
> compared the sales for ED to SR and BT... Battletech has always been one
> of the leaders in it's field, and always been the best selling thing for
> FASA (Until this last year when SR whipped it, at least :)). And SR is,
> well... Shadowrun. Shadowrun's a wierd game in that it created it's own
> niche and really it's own genre, and has managed to sell well and create a
> huge following.
>
> Earthdawn's following was VERY loyal, but unfortuantely just not big
enough.
>
> Wierdly enough, Earthdawn's sales really picked up AFTER the line got
> discontinued...
>

I can explain that, I know that both of the ED people (can't say that I care
for the game myself) went on a crazy earthdawn buying spree to get all the
books before they disappear.

later
Christopher Pratt
valen@*******.com
Message no. 32
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:47:51 EDT
In a message dated 9/10/1999 11:14:08 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
rtomasso@*******.com writes:

> Carl wanted to kick up the mana curve and bring in the Horrors, among
> other things. Lets put it this way, if you hated Tir na nOg, SR would not
> be your favorite game anymore.

Hey now, I didn't hate TNn, I just noted that it was FAR more magically
intensive than technologically so. Not so bad if that is how your game ran,
otherwise it sucked...

> > As Carl Sergeant is one half of the Terrible Twins
>
> He is? Who's the other one? I thought the Terrible Twins were ... the
> freelancers formerly working for FASA. (unless that have another nickname)

Again, as Dvixen said "shush", I'm not going to explain ... though I'm
curious who the "Twins" you are speaking of are Mr. Tomasso.... ;-P

-K
Message no. 33
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:36:44 -0700
> > He is? Who's the other one? I thought the Terrible Twins were ... the
> > freelancers formerly working for FASA. (unless that have another nickname)

No.. the freelancers are Hive Mind...
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Who Do You Trust? And, Who Do You Serve? - Galen
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 34
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:36:43 -0700
> Earthdawn's following was VERY loyal, but unfortuantely just not big enough.

IS very loyal..

> Wierdly enough, Earthdawn's sales really picked up AFTER the line got
> discontinued...

One of the reasons I personally think that there may be a future for
ED..Not right away of course..but some time...And it could even be
sooner than we all might think...
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Who Do You Trust? And, Who Do You Serve? - Galen
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 35
From: David Yiannakos yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:51:06 -0400
| > Earthdawn's following was VERY loyal, but unfortuantely just not big
enough.
|
| IS very loyal..
|

Woo Hoo! <*cheersandapplause*>

| > Wierdly enough, Earthdawn's sales really picked up AFTER the line got
| > discontinued...
|
| One of the reasons I personally think that there may be a future for
| ED..Not right away of course..but some time...And it could even be
| sooner than we all might think...
| --------------------------------GRANITE

Oh stop. You're teasing me now.
Message no. 36
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:18:38 -0700
From: Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Deciper press release link
To: shadowrn@*********.org
Date sent: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:31:32 -0400 (EDT)
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

[SNIP]

>
> > 1) Earthdawn didn;t sell. There's nothing that can be done about that.
> > FASA tried everything they could to get people interested in the game,
> > INCLUDING giving away the rules on CD-ROM. In the end, it wasn;t enough,
> > and the game went the way of the Dodo,
>
> Yeah. Though it was selling, just not making enough money for FASA. Sales
> picked up after the CD-ROM. I guess FASA management decided they could
> make more money with miniatures games. Ner.
>

Since the acquision of Ral Parta, there may be more then a bit of truth in
that statement. It has to do with continuing sales.

With a properly written RPG, a gamemaster may only need to buy the
basic rule book. With that one purchace he could in theory run games for
mulitiple people (none of which has to own a copy) for as long as he is
interested in doing so. Granted it is likely that he will buy other materials and
some of his players will too, but it is not required.

With a Minatures game it is much different. First, like a RPG, at least one
copy of the rules is needed to play. But if the rules are properly written, and
include basic army lists and stand or base standards, every player will need
a copy. And if they are going to be compeditive possession of your own
copy is imperative. Advanced army lists, and rules supplements if the exist
also are likely to be come musts. Then we get to the army, each side needs
one. And if it is a gaming group that is taking up the game it is extremely
likely that all of the members will start armys. If everyone paints a unit, you
can get down to playing faster then if one person trys to do it all. And once
they start many will finsh at least a basic army so they can set up games on
thier own. Depending on the game, that can be a lot of minatures. And that
assumes that the company does not pull a Games Workshop and constantly
produce new figures to go with new rules (available "free" in their magazine)
that change the balance of the game thus necesstating changes in an army's
makeup.

It is also important to remember that minatures per figure pack cost is
smaller then that of the average source book ($5 vs $15-20), granted the final
cost may be higher, but you can spend a little money on minatures more
frequently. After all most dealers will not sell part of a book.

Lastly minatures have a different preproduction process that is not as
dependent on what has just come out and what is next as RPG materials. The
sculptor working from either research materials or consept drawings does a
group of figures. Other then maintaing scale, and uniform consisantcy (for
historical) what he does with this figure is not particulay dependant to what
he did with the previous or following figures, Granted some long term
planning is needed to insure that figures for both sides are produced in a
manner that preserves game balance. It is not a good idea to produce only
infantry figures for one side an cavalry for the other (unless it is historical,
i.e. Mongols vs Chinese). But once that is done it is only a question of
available production capacity that determines how large the line can grow. It
is also easier to find sculptors that can produce figures that fit in to the line
then writers who can continue a RPG games design thread through anothr
sourcebook.


So if we are talking two gaming groups of equal size. In the worst case
senerio. The minature group has the likely hood resulting in more sales, then
the RPG group. The same goes for the middle case, only when you get to the
fanatic case (every play buys every book) that RPG pulls out a head.

The other factor to consider is that while there is a sizable overlap, RPGers
and Minature gamers make up two different groups. So it pays to do both.

Well I need to get back to painting..... :-)

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
====================="Heroes are not giant statues against a red sky.
They are people who say: This is my community
and it is my responsiblity to make it better."
Tom McCall
Former Oregon Governor
Message no. 37
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:26:35 +0200
David Hinkley wrote:
>

>
> With a properly written RPG, a gamemaster may only need to buy the
> basic rule book. With that one purchace he could in theory run games for
> mulitiple people (none of which has to own a copy) for as long as he is

Kult

All you need to play for years is in the main book, the rest is just
additional material you don`t need to play.
--
Barbie

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler

barbie@********.de
http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++
dk sh++++ ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)
Message no. 38
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:42:33 -0700
> | > Wierdly enough, Earthdawn's sales really picked up AFTER the line got
> | > discontinued...
> | One of the reasons I personally think that there may be a future for
> | ED..Not right away of course..but some time...And it could even be
> | sooner than we all might think...
> Oh stop. You're teasing me now.

Well..For the most part it is my own high hopes..but in an extremely
small measure it is based on a conversation I had recently had..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Who Do You Trust? And, Who Do You Serve? - Galen
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 39
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:16:23 +0200
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au>
Date: 10 September 1999 04:12
Subject: Re: Deciper press release link


>At 09:40 8/09/99 +0200, Bruce wrote:
>>
>>Earthdawn wasnt all that great to begin with. As evidinced by poor
>>sales.
>
>If sales make something great AD&D and Vampire are better than SR.
>And Rifts is better than Ars Magica...

Well, actually the fun people have playing makes a product great.
People who have fun
with something they buy will recommend it to friends and so on... ie.
It will sell, your
perceived notion of quality aside. So maybe Vampire is a better game
than SR
in my opinion. Does that matter? Does that make SR a lesser game to
the rest of the
list members or the RPG buying public? NO.

>>I get the impression that you feel that SR3 was not needed. Think
>>again
>>
>Not needed, but useful would be my view of it.

It was needed in the sense that it compiles the rules from several
core rather neatly and makes essential rules changes that make the
game playable and presentation changes that make the book attractive
to potential buyers. It was needed by FASA in terms of sales to keep
the line alive and on our side in terms of going forward with a solid
set of rules.
Message no. 40
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:04:17 +1000
At 05:56 9/09/99 -0400, Bull wrote:
>At 11:12 PM 9/8/99 -0400, abortion_engine wrote these timeless words:
>You resent it? Why?? It wasn't a personal attack at you or the gamers in
>general. Geez....

Who says it has to be personal to be resented?

I'm sure that a lot of 3rd world people resent the status of many
Americans, but that doesn't mean that people in the US are better off just
to piss them off.
>
>Now, to set the record straight on this (and god knows this won't be the
>first time nor the last that this will have to be said), the ED/SR link
>was, well... badly done.

IYO. IMO it was done pretty reasonably.

> It was something that got thrown into the mix
>AFTER Earthdawn was written,

There was always the idea that magic was cyclic in SR so that previously
there must have been orcs, elves etc. It was noted that magic used to work
pre-2000 at some stage so the past history was always there.

There weren't plans to make a game out of it for quite a while but that's a
different issue.

> and unfortunately, it made the link an awkward one, at best.

What was awkward about it?

> Plus, that link hampered SR, because any time something
>happened in Shadowrun, everyone went rushing to find an ED precedent,

That depends on what the event is. If it's a magical effect or new spirit
then it does make some sense.

> or
>associated it with the IE or Horrors (And rightly so during Dowd's run,
>especially toward the end :/). And anything in ED, everyone started
>looking for in Shadowrun.
>
>Earthdawn was a good game on it's own. And had it been well thought out,
>the ED/SR link could have been cool. But, things have progressed to the
>state they're currently in for two reasons:
>
>1) Earthdawn didn;t sell.

Earthdawn didn't sell in the quantities needed for the profitability FASA
was looking for. It did make money.

> There's nothing that can be done about that.
>FASA tried everything they could to get people interested in the game,
>INCLUDING giving away the rules on CD-ROM. In the end, it wasn;t enough,
>and the game went the way of the Dodo, and will probably never get
>resureccted. Sad, but true.
>
>2) There was a time in Shadowrun (late 95 or so) when if you mentioned
>Immortal Elves or Horrors, most Shadowrun Players wanted to slap you (And
>you long termers, don;t deny it. I remember a LOT of complaints on this
>list back when I first joined in 96, and that was after the FASA IE and
>Horror stuff was dying off).

Which was a SR problem rather than any ED related problem.

> It got to be a VERY overused cliche in
>Shadowrun. Anything big happened, it either meant that the Horrors were
>coming, Harley was involved, or both. Even the bugs, which by themsleves
>got way overused, were Horror related. And that point was the LOW point
>for Shadowrun, sales wise. Harlequin the first was a very neat adventure.
>Harley's Back was, IMO, kinda dumb and pointless... Interesting idea,
but...
--
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 41
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:42:55 -0700 (PDT)
--- Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com> wrote:
> Rand Ratinac wrote:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I think you need to fix some setting on your mailer to send your name
as plain text.

If anyone has any ideas I'm open to suggestions. I use IE 4.0 and I
have NO idea how to fix this...

> Carl wanted to kick up the mana curve and bring in the Horrors, among
other things. Lets put it this way, if you hated Tir na nOg, SR would
not be your favorite game anymore.

Grrr...all right, I'll take my Carl-hate off the list now, but
REALLY...

> > As Carl Sergeant is one half of the Terrible Twins
>
> He is? Who's the other one? I thought the Terrible Twins were ... the
freelancers formerly working for FASA. (unless that have another
nickname)

Don't know who you're referring to here (although if I had to hazard a
guess, I'd say <CENSORED>.) I personally call Carl Sergeant and Marc
Gascoigne the Terrible Twins. But that's just me...

> > So I do enjoy hearing anything bad about him.
>
> Dvixen said no, so sorry. Wouldn't want her to kick my ass or
anything. :)

*sigh*

They're no fun. :)

*Doc' wonders if there's something in the European psyche that produces
munchkins by the barrel...

Doc' runs...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 42
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:28:56 +0200
> *Doc' wonders if there's something in the European psyche that produces
> munchkins by the barrel...
>
Hey, now wait a sec, we? :)

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Message no. 43
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:39:03 -0700 (PDT)
> > *Doc' wonders if there's something in the European psyche that
produces munchkins by the barrel...
> >
> Hey, now wait a sec, we? :)
> Barbie

Well, the reasoning may be a bit specious, but it wasn't exactly a
serious comment. Still...

These are the only SR sourcebooks (as opposed to novels) that have been
written by Europeans (that I know of):

London Sourcebook
Germany Sourcebook
Tir na nOg
Prime Runners

Now, Prime Runners wasn't exactly munchie (except for Michael
Sutherland - but what do you expect when his creators wrote the book?),
but London, Germany and Tir na nOg?

London I'm not sure on - I have it, but haven't read it yet...but I've
heard stories.

Tir na nOg contains the most munchie magical system ever devised
(whoops - I forgot about Barbie for a second there - make that
"published" ;-) ).

Germany had the gear sections hacked out of it before it was ever
printed in English because the toys were so munchie.

Then there's the French one - I haven't seen this one and it wouldn't
help me if I did, as I don't read anything but a minimal smattering of
French - but again I've heard tales (varying from "it's munchie" to "it
sucks" depending on who you ask :) ).

Munchie books = munchie gamers.

*Doc' summons a Force 12 spirit with the movement power and runs hard
and fast...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 44
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 02:19:31 -0400
>> > *Doc' wonders if there's something in the European psyche that
>produces munchkins by the barrel...
>> >
>> Hey, now wait a sec, we? :)
>> Barbie
>
>Well, the reasoning may be a bit specious, but it wasn't exactly a
>serious comment. Still...
>
>These are the only SR sourcebooks (as opposed to novels) that have
been
>written by Europeans (that I know of):
>
>London Sourcebook
>Germany Sourcebook
>Tir na nOg
>Prime Runners
>
>Now, Prime Runners wasn't exactly munchie (except for Michael
>Sutherland - but what do you expect when his creators wrote the
book?),
>but London, Germany and Tir na nOg?


I had a problem with Teachdaire myself; he was either made without a
whole lot of foresight or was engineered to be a one-way munchie from
the beginning. I mean, who initiates 9 levels just to implant a ton
of delta-grade cyber and bioware into himself?

Sutherland? Munchkin. Zessler? Munchkin. De Vries was cool, though
(which reminds me. Exactly what are the rules for vampirism?)

>London I'm not sure on - I have it, but haven't read it yet...but
I've
>heard stories.


Damned cyberknights and druids. Munchie. But hey, the writers
managed to make London interesting. I can deal with that.

>Tir na nOg contains the most munchie magical system ever devised
>(whoops - I forgot about Barbie for a second there - make that
>"published" ;-) ).


Oh God, yes. Don't forget those sniper systems, either. I don't have
the TNN book, but can someone tell me the stats of the sniper system,
and what page it's on?

>Germany had the gear sections hacked out of it before it was ever
>printed in English because the toys were so munchie.


Really? Like what? I mean, how bad can the weapons possibly be?
Magic and industry aside, I found the German book to be a bit dry (and
outdated) myself. For one thing, the political changes that Germany
experienced weren't emphasized well enough; what was the political
climate before the Awakening, and how drastic was the change
afterward? Sure, I can simply read a paper, but I would've
appreciated some more info. You'd think that there'd be at least a
bit more information on SK: when your country is home to the #1 mega
in the world, you are going to dedicate a LOT more than ten pages to
it. You'd think Germany would be as proud of SK as Detroit is of Ares
(i.e., about as fanatical as Detroits get about hockey, for example).
As for the munch factor, I did find the magic to be a bit on the
munchie side.

>Then there's the French one - I haven't seen this one and it wouldn't
>help me if I did, as I don't read anything but a minimal smattering
of
>French - but again I've heard tales (varying from "it's munchie" to
"it
>sucks" depending on who you ask :) ).


There's a French book?

>Munchie books = munchie gamers.


No kidding. At first I was going to argue that the European players
needed to be munchie as a survival tactic, but no. A munchkin is a
munchkin.

-----
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http://freespeech.org/ak404/
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"Just because you win doesn't mean you're right."
Message no. 45
From: Arcaist arcaist@*****.de
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:02:28 +0200
> Really? Like what? I mean, how bad can the weapons
> possibly be?

Bad. Trust me. Extra large magazine capacity, virtually undetectable,
SA/BF/FA capable, fitted with Smart2... and so on. Well, perhaps you'll
see them in CC ;-)


> Magic and industry aside, I found the German book to be a bit dry (and
> outdated) myself.

You're not alone there. If you're not especially familiar with Germany,
there's not much in the Sourcebook one could call special - but if
you're German and you see all these cities you know brought fifty years
into the future - well, sorta cool...

> For one thing, the political changes that Germany
> experienced weren't emphasized well enough; what was the political
> climate before the Awakening, and how drastic was the change
> afterward? Sure, I can simply read a paper, but I would've
> appreciated some more info. You'd think that there'd be at least a
> bit more information on SK: when your country is home to the #1 mega
> in the world, you are going to dedicate a LOT more than ten pages to
> it. You'd think Germany would be as proud of SK as Detroit is of Ares
> (i.e., about as fanatical as Detroits get about hockey, for example).

The creators did not want to make it Germany = Saeder-Krupp. What's the
point of creating a setting for a country if you could just make
"Seader-Krupp - The Sourcebook".

> As for the munch factor, I did find the magic to be a bit on the
> munchie side.

...and mysteriously, the whole magic section made it into MitS :)

> There's a French book?

Only a legend, perhaps.

> >Munchie books = munchie gamers.
>
> No kidding. At first I was going to argue that the European players
> needed to be munchie as a survival tactic, but no. A munchkin is a
> munchkin.

Survival tactic against what?

--
Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de
Message no. 46
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 05:43:53 -0400
>> There's a French book?
>
>Only a legend, perhaps.

Nope. It's for real.
I've seen it, and read as much as I could with 4 years of High School
French.
It's true though, the weapons in that book are ridiculous.
They fire in all modes, weigh less than any other gun, have a larger ammo
capacity, and a better concealability than any other gun in their respective
category!

Fortunately this stuff as NOT produced by FASA.
It was made specifically for the French market, and I'd be VERY surprised if
it ever saw print in English.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"Fingercuffs"
Message no. 47
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:41:28 +0200
And finally, Arcaist expressed himself by writing:

> > Really? Like what? I mean, how bad can the weapons
> > possibly be?
>
> Bad. Trust me. Extra large magazine capacity, virtually undetectable,
> SA/BF/FA capable, fitted with Smart2... and so on. Well, perhaps you'll
> see them in CC ;-)

or: APDS ammo with a lower availability, two-barrel SMGs,
and a silenced pistol from hell

> > Magic and industry aside, I found the German book to be a bit dry (and
> > outdated) myself.
>
> You're not alone there. If you're not especially familiar with Germany,
> there's not much in the Sourcebook one could call special - but if
> you're German and you see all these cities you know brought fifty years
> into the future - well, sorta cool...

I don't like most of the things they did. Flooding Hamburg
and that Troll Kingdom in the Schwarzwald are just stupid...

<snip>

> > >Munchie books = munchie gamers.
> >
> > No kidding. At first I was going to argue that the European players
> > needed to be munchie as a survival tactic, but no. A munchkin is a
> > munchkin.
>
> Survival tactic against what?

Yeah. Please tell :)

arclight
Message no. 48
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
> >> There's a French book?
> >
> >Only a legend, perhaps.
>
> Nope. It's for real.
> I've seen it, and read as much as I could with 4 years of High School
French.
> It's true though, the weapons in that book are ridiculous.
> They fire in all modes, weigh less than any other gun, have a larger
ammo capacity, and a better concealability than any other gun in their
respective category!
> Steven A. Tinner

European craftsmanship, Tinner.

*Doc' falls to the floor, laughing hysterically...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 49
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:58:37 -0700 (PDT)
> > As for the munch factor, I did find the magic to be a bit on the
munchie side.
>
> ...and mysteriously, the whole magic section made it into MitS :)

Yes, but (as with the ways and paths) brought more into line with more
mainstream magical traditions.

IIRC.

> > >Munchie books = munchie gamers.
> >
> > No kidding. At first I was going to argue that the European
players needed to be munchie as a survival tactic, but no. A munchkin
is a munchkin.
>
> Survival tactic against what?
> Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de

I think the point was that if the GM has access to those books, so do
his NPCs - which means the players need them to stand a chance.

Which is, of course, drek - for MOST GMs. Unless your GM's an evil
bastard, you'll usually end up only facing equivalent or slightly
superior firepower. If you guys, as players, decide that you're only
going to pack light pistols and wear armoured vests as standard, most
GMs will appreciate that and only toss you up against equivalently
equipped goons under normal circumstances. If you decide to do that and
your GM routinely hoses you with cybered, assault rifle-armed and
military-armoured goons, you REALLY need to talk to him. With a
baseball bat.

Or you need to move away from Europe.

*Doc' hops a suborbital and flees the country...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 50
From: Walter Scheper ratlaw@*******.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 22:16:06 -0500
At 11:02 AM 9/20/99 +0200, you wrote:
[snip munchie stuff]

> > No kidding. At first I was going to argue that the European players
> > needed to be munchie as a survival tactic, but no. A munchkin is a
> > munchkin.
>
>Survival tactic against what?

I always thought that Europe had all sorts of strange magical happenings,
which is what I thought he was referring to. Please feel free to correct
me if I'm wrong, and I'm beginning to think I am. :)


>--
>Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de
>
Message no. 51
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 01:47:56 -0400
>> > As for the munch factor, I did find the magic to be a bit on the
>munchie side.
>>
>> ...and mysteriously, the whole magic section made it into MitS :)
>
>Yes, but (as with the ways and paths) brought more into line with
more
>mainstream magical traditions.
>
>IIRC.
>
>> > >Munchie books = munchie gamers.
>> >
>> > No kidding. At first I was going to argue that the European
>players needed to be munchie as a survival tactic, but no. A
munchkin
>is a munchkin.
>>
>> Survival tactic against what?
>> Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de
>
>I think the point was that if the GM has access to those books, so do
>his NPCs - which means the players need them to stand a chance.
>
>Which is, of course, drek - for MOST GMs. Unless your GM's an evil
>bastard, you'll usually end up only facing equivalent or slightly
>superior firepower. If you guys, as players, decide that you're only
>going to pack light pistols and wear armoured vests as standard, most
>GMs will appreciate that and only toss you up against equivalently
>equipped goons under normal circumstances. If you decide to do that
and
>your GM routinely hoses you with cybered, assault rifle-armed and
>military-armoured goons, you REALLY need to talk to him. With a
>baseball bat.


Basically, yeah. Nothing worse than a munchie GM.

-----
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ICQ: 2157053

"Just because you win doesn't mean you're right."
Message no. 52
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:31:14 -0400
Angelkiller wrote:
> Basically, yeah. Nothing worse than a munchie GM.

Only one thing chummer, a munchie GM with munchie players who all look at
you and say "what do you mean that's too powerful..."

Group munchie <shudder>

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 53
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 03:25:21 -0700
> > It's true though, the weapons in that book are ridiculous.
> > They fire in all modes, weigh less than any other gun,
> > have a larger ammo capacity, and a better concealability
> > than any other gun in their respective category!
> > Steven A. Tinner

> European craftsmanship, Tinner.

> *Doc' falls to the floor, laughing hysterically...*

<Foghorn Leghorn voice>
I say boy, I say, you're looking for a serious ass-whooping,
boy?</Foghorn Leghorn voice>

But agreed, the European books are not exactly good; They all
suffer from over enthusiastic writers who want to show how
cool they can make a place.
You can't move through the UK without tripping over druids.
It looks like they pulled out almost every legend they could
find and used it in the book.
Germany's a mess. Totally unbelievable history, too many
catastrophes, and everybody and his dog have their own kingdom.

The funniest by far however is Tir na n'Og. Grab all the
folklore, multiply it by ten, and then throw in a bunch of
super tech goodies. The magic is one thing, although IMHO a bit
over the top, but to make it super high tech at the same time
is just ridiculous. I doubt that Ireland is ever going to
develop high tech weaponry, specially since there is no such
industry there right now. The public transport system is a
laugh, and that's not likely to improve at all. But the best
of all is turning Ireland into a police state with a secret
police and all that. Any one knowing anything about the
history of Ireland knows that this is not going to happen.

And another thing, what the heck do the writers think the
tourists will visit if they made every interesting spot in
the country a magical off limits site? Tourism should have
collapsed, taking down part of the economy, since tourists
don't like "no entrance" signs, police states, and a
volatile political climate.

When I first read TnO I thought it was interesting, now
after having lived in Ireland for three years I think it's
hilarious.


Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44
Message no. 54
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:00:42 +0200
According to Martin Steffens (Berlitz), at 3:25 on 22 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> But agreed, the European books are not exactly good; They all
> suffer from over enthusiastic writers who want to show how
> cool they can make a place.

And, as Avenger put it, IIRC, show that the place is different than it is
today through random, wanton destruction.

> The funniest by far however is Tir na n'Og. [snip] Any one knowing
> anything about the history of Ireland knows that this is not going to
> happen.

Hell, I hardly know anything about Ireland and I can tell you those sorts
of things are not going to happen in western countries -- or at the very
least, not in the time span the Tir na nOg book tells us it happened.

> And another thing, what the heck do the writers think the
> tourists will visit if they made every interesting spot in
> the country a magical off limits site?

It could be that Carl Sargent got his info out of tourism brochures, which
tend to feature the interesting spots :)

--
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Message no. 55
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:56:47 +0100
In article <199909221800.UAA15162@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>And, as Avenger put it, IIRC, show that the place is different than it is
>today through random, wanton destruction.

Yeah. Dounereay's nuclear reactor (since shut down anyway) has an
accident and half of Scotland is suddenly empty?

Come on, the worst nuclear accident in history happens at Chernobyl, and
not only are people still living in the Ukraine but they're running the other
reactors on the site because they need the power!

I'm sorry, but the "London Sourcebook" was just _bad_.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 56
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:49:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > > It's true though, the weapons in that book are
ridiculous. They fire in all modes, weigh less than
any other gun, have a larger ammo capacity, and a
better concealability than any other gun in their
respective category!
> > > Steven A. Tinner
>
> > European craftsmanship, Tinner.
>
> > *Doc' falls to the floor, laughing
hysterically...*
>
> <Foghorn Leghorn voice>
> I say boy, I say, you're looking for a serious
ass-whooping, boy?</Foghorn Leghorn voice>
> Martin Steffens

*Doc' takes a bow. "I bask in the warmth of your approbation..."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 57
From: Roger Ramirez chariot@*******.net
Subject: Deciper press release link
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:34:51 -0400
First off, I wish people would stop talking about issues totally unrelated
to the subject of the message. It's a bit frustrating to check your mail
after two days and see about 10 posts for "Re: Decipher press release link"
and none of them having anything to do with it. This isn't any kind of bad
mouthing flame but I think the list admins should have stepped in a long
time ago.

Now on to the subject.

Well it's been about 60 or 61 days since decipher said they were going to
acquire FASA "in 60 days". Does anyone know anything about this? If
anything else has been going down?

Thanks for your patience

Chariot

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