Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Stephen Wilcoxon <wilcoxon@***.UDEL.EDU>
Subject:	deckers...
Date:	Thu, 1 Oct 92 16:32:21 GMT

Message no. 1 I was working on creating a decker and wandered something...
Unless the decker has a C2 deck is there any reason to get anything better than
a datajack-1 since the DFR doesn't matter since there's no data actually going
through the jack (the only thing it's necessary for is just "commanding" the
deck)?

Twilight

The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life.
-- The Player's Litany

From:	Erik Hultgren <EHULTGRE@******.BITNET>
Subject:	deckers
Date:	Fri, 12 Nov 1993 15:41:42 EST

Message no. 2 Hey all you deckers!!!
I have restarted playing Shadowrun recently, and wouldlike some questions a
se this would make slagging the corps mucho easier. Here goes:
1) On page 48 of Virtual realities, it is stated that only blaster IC can harm
e infamous Black IC can kill the decker. Why can't a decker hurt another's perso
this means is that deckers can only dump each other!! Whoopty doo! So why shou
me?? They can't really hurt me and I can't hurt them. This leads us to:
2) Why can't I design a trace and report program to carry in my deck. With this
send my buddies to beat the snail snot out of him. Why is it only IC??
3) Has FASA released any new materials for deckers or cyberspace??
4) My decker has a VERY powerful deck ( been playing a long time). When I have
estrict program a couple times tends to help me win the fight in the long run.
r crashing the big boys?
Thanx ahead to all that respond,
Warlok :ehultgre@******.kent.edu
*Knowledge makes the world go round*

From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Fri, 12 Nov 1993 13:44:38 -0800

Message no. 3 Warlok asked:

First of all, Warlok, you need to format your post in a manner that we can
actually read them. Now one to your questions.

1) Why can't deckers carry programs that can actually injure a decker as
opposed to his personna? The answer is simple: SPACE. There is not enough
memory space in a cyberdeck to run a program that can perform the functions
of Blaster or Black IC. Remember that it takes 100 Mp of programs in a
cyberdeck memory to make one point of load while Blaster & Black IC loads
are 1.5 times the Rating.

2) Why can't you run a trace program? Read the above answer inserting Trace
programs for Blaster and Black IC.

3) Fas has not put out anything on the Matrix since Virtual Realities.

4) The fourth question was unreadable and thus cannot be answered.

See Ya in Shadows, "I can count the number of days I've worked
Jason J Carter since graduation on one hand." - ME!
The Nightstalker Carter@***.EDU

From:	Angel <olds@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Fri, 12 Nov 1993 17:36:00 EST

Message no. 4 IS anyone having problems reading his decker post? Most of
it when I received it was chopped off...almost every sentence
had missing words....

Just wondering if I am crazy or not,
QuickSilver
--

From:	warlok <EHULTGRE@******.BITNET>
Subject:	Deckers
Date:	Fri, 12 Nov 1993 18:35:57 EST

Message no. 5 My last attempt to post this got garbled, so here goes again:
I've restarted playing Shadowrun again, and have several questions about the ma
trix and deckers. Please respond ASAP with your ideas, opinions, or whatever.
Here goes:
1) According to VR (pg 48, I think) only Blaster IC, Killer IC, and Black IC
are the only things that can really hurt a persona, MPCP, or decker. Why is i
t that a fellow decker can't slag another console cowboy?? All they can do is d
ump each other out of cyberspace! This blows and I don't understand it. Why d
oes everyone seem so afraid of corporate deckers if they can't mess you up like
some flavors of IC can???
2) Wouldn't it be cool if you could carry around a trace utility?? When you
found some drekhead, you could slot the program, get his location, and send you
r buddies on over to pound the snail snot out him. Why should IC have all the
fun??
3) Has FASA released any new supplements for deckers? Just wondering.
4) On the frequently occuring instances where I have had to plaster another
decker, I have found that a deck with a level 3 response increase can allow a d
ecker to trample over anyone. If your initiative is way higher than theirs, ru
n your restrict program against them a couple times. When you only need a 2 or
3 to hit them, they might as well jack themselves out. Tell me if you have an
y quicker or better tactics.
Thanx ahead of time! Warlok :ehultgre@******.kent.edu

From:	Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 12 Nov 1993 18:52:30 +22310502

Message no. 6 I was wondering...regarding trace programs. I seem to remember a way that a
sort of second deck can be linked to yours as you run. It is a sort of
slave that can run things like brouse programs or sleeze programs for you.
I do not have a handy copy of VR so I can't look it up. Do they exist?

If they exist, can they be used to trace the location of another decker and
dump them? Can a Decker be traced (do they leave a trail like a mage in
astral space)? Can the deck be attacked directly if it's input site is
found? Could a node that they are accessing from be destroyed and they be
dumped that way?

I ask because I am but a lowly mage and have never run a decker. But as a
mage I have often engaged in astral combat while one of my elementals goes
off to singe the opposing mages body to a crisp. Be neat if you could do
that in cyber space.

Ben-ha-meen

From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 12 Nov 1993 19:24:34 GMT

Message no. 7 >I was wondering...regarding trace programs. I seem to remember a way that a
>sort of second deck can be linked to yours as you run. It is a sort of
>slave that can run things like brouse programs or sleeze programs for you.
>I do not have a handy copy of VR so I can't look it up. Do they exist?

A similar question came upa few months ago. According to Tom Dowd, cybedecks
cannot be run parallel or in line with each other; they don't work that way.

If you wanted to say it works like a modern day Mac using another mac as
a "server", there would be a dangerous time lag; it wouldn't be good enough
to act as more than Storage. If you're trying to keep the trace busy, try
my Signal Router, which will be included in a book we're compiling on
another list.

>If they exist, can they be used to trace the location of another decker and
>dump them? Can a Decker be traced (do they leave a trail like a mage in
>astral space)? Can the deck be attacked directly if it's input site is
>found? Could a node that they are accessing from be destroyed and they be
>dumped that way?

I don't think Deckers can trace; Trace of any kind is IC, which cannot be
carried by Deckers. A decker can be traced as long as he's connected
to the computer system. By "Attacked Directly" at the "Input Site" I
assume
you mean "Can the cops bust into your real world location and lob an ax
into your deck?" Yes, they can, once the trace has found you. It takse a couple
of minutes, though, for the cops to get there. If a node is destroyed, the
decker is dumped; have you ever had a site go down while Telnetted there?
Same thing.

>I ask because I am but a lowly mage and have never run a decker. But as a
>mage I have often engaged in astral combat while one of my elementals goes
>off to singe the opposing mages body to a crisp. Be neat if you could do
>that in cyber space.

Ah, that's the trouble. Mages do not great Deckers make :)
The analogy to the tactic in the Matrix is Frames, which are indeed listed
in VR. A frame is a set of programs that's given a mission; it goes off into
the matrix to complete its task. I don't know if they can fight, however.

J Roberson

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 12 Nov 1993 19:28:13 -0600

Message no. 8 On Fri, 12 Nov 1993, The Deb Decker wrote:

> Ah, that's the trouble. Mages do not great Deckers make :)
> The analogy to the tactic in the Matrix is Frames, which are indeed listed
> in VR. A frame is a set of programs that's given a mission; it goes off into
> the matrix to complete its task. I don't know if they can fight, however.

Yes, they can fight, but only if they are programmed with that ability.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Sat, 13 Nov 1993 20:51:41 +0930

Message no. 9 >
>Hey all you deckers!!!
> I have restarted playing Shadowrun recently, and wouldlike some questions a
>se this would make slagging the corps mucho easier. Here goes:
>1) On page 48 of Virtual realities, it is stated that only blaster IC can harm
>e infamous Black IC can kill the decker.Why can't a decker hurt another's perso
> this means is that deckers can only dump each other!!Whoopty doo! So why shou
>me?? They can't really hurt me and I can't hurt them. This leads us to:
>2) Why can't I design a trace and report program to carry in my deck. With this
> send my buddies to beat the snail snot out of him. Why is it only IC??
>3) Has FASA released any new materials for deckers or cyberspace??
>4) My decker has a VERY powerful deck ( been playing a long time). When I have
>estrict program a couple times tends to help me win the fight in the long run.
>r crashing the big boys?
>Thanx ahead to all that respond,
> Warlok :ehultgre@******.kent.edu
>*Knowledge makes the world go round*
>
The difference is that IC consumes about as much system resources as your
entire persona does. In other words, the effects of IC require mucho power.
More power than a cyberdeck can deliever.
After all, while a cyberdeck is EXTREMELY powerful for it's size, it just
doesn't match up against a system that doesn't have to be picked up and
carried.

As for the new materials, I understand FASA is working on a VR II.

--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
f g+ w+ t++ r+(r--) y+
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.

From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Sat, 13 Nov 1993 13:13:50 -0800

Message no. 10 Warlok:

1) That Attack Utility and the Trace and Burn IC will also hurt the personna or
MPCP of a deck. Don't take every comment in the book at face value. If
something obviously contradicts them they they are wrong.

2) Like I said, there is not enough space in a deck to run a Trace like
program.

3) Not since VR or SRII.

4) Anyone with a level 3 responce increase deck has a MPCP of 12 and should
trapple over anyone with a lesser deck. It's like watching a samurai with
wired reflexes three kick butt.

From:	Kevin Roberts <ST0023@*******.BITNET>
Subject:	Deckers
Date:	Fri, 17 Dec 1993 04:07:36 +0100

Message no. 11 Hello to Shadowrun.

I am a begining human Decker and I need advice as to what types of
Cyberware is best for a decker and still be efective outside the net.

I also heard that you can get something called Alpha, and Beta, to
reduce the Essince cost of the CyberWear.

I Would like all the help that I can get in this matter.

Is it possible to combine magic with the Deck or the net.

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Thu, 16 Dec 1993 21:43:32 -0600

Message no. 12 On Fri, 17 Dec 1993, Kevin Roberts wrote:

> Hello to Shadowrun.
>
> I am a begining human Decker and I need advice as to what types of
> Cyberware is best for a decker and still be efective outside the net.

One Level Four Encephalon.
A Math Coprocessor
Perhaps a 2nd or 3rd datajack if you GM will allow you to use the NAGEE
rules for multitasking.
200MP memory.
Eyeballs are nice. Add telescopic vision and a video camera (nice for
recording and blackmailing Mr. Johnson.)
Add ears for sound on the above.
C^2 decks can be nice, if you wanna spend the essence. I personally don't
like them because to do repairs requires sergury.

> I also heard that you can get something called Alpha, and Beta, to
> reduce the Essince cost of the CyberWear.

Yes, Alpha and Betaware is very black-market cyber that is ultra
high-grade. AlphaWare costs 3x as much, but reduces essence cost by 20%
(x.8). BetaWare is 7x as expensive, and only easts up 60% of normal
essence (x.6).

Note, by saying it is very black market, this is the kind of stuff that
only very rich and very powerful people can even get LEADS on.

> Is it possible to combine magic with the Deck or the net.

No. Unless the magician mind-controlled the the decker and ran them that
way. But you cannot cast magic in the matrix, because the matrix itself
doesn't exist. It is only an iconic representation created by the deck
itself, made to look real to ease its use.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 17 Dec 1993 02:29:25 -0600

Message no. 13 > I am a begining human Decker and I need advice as to what types of
> Cyberware is best for a decker and still be efective outside the net.

IMHO opinion you don't need it. I played my decker for quite a while w/o
anything more than a datajack. In fact, she never got any more cyberware -
though she did stock up on bioware.
At this point you may be wondering what an encephalon or bioware
is (you sound VERY new). These are new enhancements put forth in the
Shadowtech supplement. Additional cyberware, as well as rules for alpha/beta
ware and rules for damaging and repairing cyberware can be found in the
Street Samurai Catalog (SSC).

Magic and the Matrix do not mix. In Virtual Realities there are two ways
offered for regulating this: 1 is to add the decker/mage's Magic attribute
to all Matrix-related tasks, the other is to add the Sorcery skill.

The premise behind this is that mages know the Matrix is bogus and therefore
can't accept it as real, the way a decker does. To a mage the Matrix always
looks like a big video game, no matter how sculpted the system is to appear
akin to reality.

Magical spells cannot affect the matrix because, as Rob mentioned, it does not
exist. Of course, you can crash a know by physically manipulating a computer,
and a decker with Quickened Intelligence or Reaction Increase spells would
gain bonuses to his speed in the Matrix.

J Roberson

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Sat, 18 Dec 1993 01:41:23 +0930

Message no. 14 > I am a begining human Decker and I need advice as to what types of
>Cyberware is best for a decker and still be efective outside the net.
>
All you NEED is a datajack. No other cyberware, by itself, will affect your
Matrix stats.
Other cyberware which is bloody useful: C^2 deck, SPU(Math), the
Encephalon, and Softlinks. Headware memory is also good.

If you want to be a combat decker, extra cyber is useful. Light reflex
enhacements, smartgun, etc.

My first decker actually was originally a street sam, and had heaps of
cyber. The only things required for a decker is a datajack and a deck.

> Is it possible to combine magic with the Deck or the net.

No. The Matrix, as such, does not exist. If you really want to get techy,
try looking at spells that will affect the electrons :)

(What? Increased Cybered Attribute on your deck's Bod?? THAWP! :)
--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.

From:	Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Mon, 2 May 1994 16:52:22 +0200

Message no. 15 If you think it's a problem to play out Full MatrixRuns and AstralQuests, then
try this one: get a second gamemaster !!! Trust me, this works just fine. The
Decker/
Magician and one master leave the room and play in a seperate room, while
the others can do some legwork, get some gear etc. ... Of course it takes
some more work on good coordination on the sides of the GMs, but the
outcome is quiet rewarding. And two pair of (gm) eyes see mor than one...

Mephisto ==St.Willkofer

From:	Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject:	Deckers
Date:	Mon, 2 May 1994 16:57:38 +0200

Message no. 16 Try this one: get a second gamemaster. This one can do the MatrixRun or
AstralQuest in an other room, while the rest of the players can use this
time for legwork, getting some gear etc.
Of course it takes some coordination on the sides of the masters, but, hey,
now they are two. And two pairs of eyes see more than a single one ...

Mephisto ==St.Willkofer

From:	Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Tue, 3 May 1994 12:29:14 +0000

Message no. 17 >
> If you think it's a problem to play out Full MatrixRuns and AstralQuests, then
> try this one: get a second gamemaster !!! Trust me, this works just fine. The
> Decker/
> Magician and one master leave the room and play in a seperate room, while
> the others can do some legwork, get some gear etc. ... Of course it takes
> some more work on good coordination on the sides of the GMs, but the
> outcome is quiet rewarding. And two pair of (gm) eyes see mor than one...
>
> Mephisto ==St.Willkofer==
>
I've tried this once. It was a palladium game. We had a Gamemaster and a
NPC Master. I didnt't work out. In the end I (NPC Master) was playing a
pixie (former NPC) nearlly like a PC and that's it.
Maybe the coordination wasn't so good.
Another problem here is: Where get another GM? We are only 3 Players, so
with 2 GMs there are only 2 Players left. (One-on-One)
Never tried this, but doesen't sound good to me.

Stefan (Son of Yuboert)

From:	"S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Tue, 3 May 1994 12:01:41 +0100

Message no. 18 On Tue, 3 May 1994, Stefan Struck wrote:

> if you think it's a problem to play out Full MatrixRuns and
AstralQuests, then
> try this one: get a second gamemaster !!! Trust me, this works just fine. The
> Decker/
> Magician and one master leave the room and play in a seperate room, while
> the others can do some legwork, get some gear etc. ... Of course it takes
> some more work on good coordination on the sides of the GMs, but the
> outcome is quiet rewarding. And two pair of (gm) eyes see mor than one...

A second GM is certainly helpful but only when the group becomes unwieldy.
I've had a second GM assist me only in games when the group exceeded 8-10
players. I really appreciated the help whenever we played fantasy games, for
example, especially since the thieves would want to go off and do one thing
and the magicians another, and also especially during combat.

Having co-GMs for small groups, I feel, is a waste of time. One GM should
be able to cope and it shouldn't be too hard to come with something for
the others to do while one of them does a solo. Dunno, maybe it work for
other groups.

From:	Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject:	Deckers
Date:	Thu, 24 Nov 1994 13:22:05 +0100

Message no. 19 The last days a lot of people talked about deckers and their
usefullness. As I'm new to the list (and barely can keep up with the
current flow of mail) maybe the things I'm going to tell are old
news (sorry).
In my games the decker used to show up half an hour before the rest
and then we roleplay the matrix-part of the adventure (the decker is
sworn to secrecy of course).
This deals with the slowdown effect but in our opinion the rules are
still to complex, and to be fair your average matrix-run has much in
common with a "good old" a$&$ dungeon-bash. I'm therefor working on a
new system to deal with matrix-runs. Till now I only playtested it
once, but with great success (I hope :-) ). The deal is you rewrite
your standard matrix-system to a real live situation (like a
permanent reality filter). For instance a system of a research lab
will look like it and the decker goes at it just like in a real
shadowrun. The programs are re-written to skills (attack becomes
firearms - sleaze becomes stealth etc.) and the Ice become real
persons or animals. The sammies in my group are all equiped with a
datajack and are saving money to buy a deck to join our decker
(they use any chance to kill stuff be it virtual or real) As I said
before I'm working on it (very slow because of my study) so please
don't ask for the complete rules.

Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL

From:	"Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Thu, 24 Nov 1994 10:38:36 -0500

Message no. 20 Use the quick Matrix-run rules from Virtual Realities.
Tom craig

From:	Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:17:56 +1100

Message no. 21 Martin Steffens writes:

> [Describes a new idea for matrix combat invloving having it analogous to
> regular combat]

Hey, cool idea. All you have to do is have some sort of table or something
that gives the deckers persona "skills" and "attributes" depending on
his
hard/software and then you can just do a matrix run using the much easier
and more well known standard combat rules. I like it. When you come up with
the equations/tables etc for determing stats, could you pelase post 'em?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+

From:	Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 25 Nov 1994 11:24:43 +0100

Message no. 22 > Datum verzending: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:17:56 +1100
> Stuur antw. aan: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
<SHADOWRN@***.SURFnet.nl>
> Van: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
> Onderwerp: Re: Deckers
> Aan: Multiple recipients of list SHADOWRN
<SHADOWRN@***.SURFnet.nl>

> Martin Steffens writes:
>
> > [Describes a new idea for matrix combat invloving having it analogous to
> > regular combat]
>
Damion wrote:
> Hey, cool idea. All you have to do is have some sort of table or something
> that gives the deckers persona "skills" and "attributes"
depending on his
> hard/software and then you can just do a matrix run using the much easier
> and more well known standard combat rules. I like it. When you come up with
> the equations/tables etc for determing stats, could you pelase post 'em?
>
I had other plans for my weekend but I will try to work them out :-)
(remember I only used these rules once and they mostly were
improvised. I'm having a bit of trouble working out the
different attack-modes used by Ice).

Greetings from Holland

Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>

From:	Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject:	deckers
Date:	Mon, 28 Nov 1994 11:51:15 +0100

Message no. 23 On fri 25 Nov Damion wrote
[Great idea, give me the rules]

Sorry Damion, it didn't work out. Most of the programs are impossible
to rewrite and the decking-rules are to complex to change in
this way.
I did come up with the following simplifications which make decking a
lot faster but also easier:
-Only use a sensor-based test when the rating of the program is lower
than the IC-rating
-Skip the execute test (I hated this rule anyway)
-Change the security code (color) in a target-number penalty ( blue
+0, green +1, orange +2 and red +3)

If someone else did write simplifing rules for decking I would like
to hear from them.

Greetings

Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>

From:	Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject:	Deckers
Date:	Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:41:52 +0200 (EET)

Message no. 24 On Sun, 25 Feb 1996, Darrin M. Conant wrote:

> Here's mine. It seems to me that deckers have always been an awkward part of
> the game. They are necessary in a world filled with computers, but they
> almost HAVE to work without the bulk of the party. I'm not sure how most
> groups handle this, but we usually have the players get a decker "buddy"
and
> just work them as an NPC to allow the players to participate in the module
> more fully.
>
We've done the same, or have a PC decker but play it solo in between the
main group's sessions... There are times a decker would be nice to have
as a PC, e.g. when the run goes into some corp and the decker should
really go in with the main group, or when the adventure is based
extensively on the Matrix, and having an NPC pretty much loses all the
fun in it.

From:	"John Stoneham" <kismet@********.infi.net>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:29:25 +0000

Message no. 25 > We've done the same, or have a PC decker but play it solo in between the
> main group's sessions... There are times a decker would be nice to have
> as a PC, e.g. when the run goes into some corp and the decker should
> really go in with the main group, or when the adventure is based
> extensively on the Matrix, and having an NPC pretty much loses all the
> fun in it.

If you've read the SR novels, you know that the deckers there are
very, very useful. They run what's called Matrix cover, or Matrix
overwatch. Going in and moving elevators, opening doors, diverting
security, turning on coffee makers... Very valuable in getting a run
to go off quickly and quietly.
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w :q :wq :wq! ^d X
exit X Q ^C ^? :quitbye CtrlAltDel ~~q :~q logout save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^H man vi ^@ ^L ^[c ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help helpquit ^D
mhelp ^C ^c help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d

From:	fauxpas@******.net (Faux Pas)
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Mon, 26 Feb 1996 20:37:02 -0600

Message no. 26 >If you've read the SR novels, you know that the deckers there are
>very, very useful. They run what's called Matrix cover, or Matrix
>overwatch. Going in and moving elevators, opening doors, diverting
>security, turning on coffee makers... Very valuable in getting a run
>to go off quickly and quietly.

Our group has an NPC decker, 20Questions, who stays "in a safe place" while
the other players are running around in the flesh. My players like to stick
together; having a player whose character stays behind (even though they are
in the matrix) would make that player feel as if she's left out of the loop.
Having an NPC decker also cuts down on the "Matrix Run for the Decker/Pizza
Run for everyone else" attitude that plagued SR2 before VR 2.0 came out.

Plus with an NPC Decker, the GM only has to run a condensed version of the
run, like only three or five rolls instead of setting up a
host-ltg-rtg-ltg-hostA-hostB-hostC-and back again run.

>Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w :q :wq :wq! ^d X
>exit X Q ^C ^? :quitbye CtrlAltDel ~~q :~q logout save/quit :!QUIT
>^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^H man vi ^@ ^L ^[c ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help helpquit ^D
>mhelp ^C ^c help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d

That's damn funny. I ROTFLMAO!

-Thomas Deeny
Cartoonist At Large

"Don't count your weasels before they pop, dink."
-The Tick

From:	Michael Yagupsky <myagup@*******.bgu.ac.il>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:28:01 +0200 (IST)

Message no. 27 On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote:

>
> > Here's mine. It seems to me that deckers have always been an awkward part of
> > the game. They are necessary in a world filled with computers, but they
> > almost HAVE to work without the bulk of the party. I'm not sure how most
> > groups handle this, but we usually have the players get a decker
"buddy" and
> > just work them as an NPC to allow the players to participate in the module
> > more fully.
> >
> We've done the same, or have a PC decker but play it solo in between the
> main group's sessions... There are times a decker would be nice to have
> as a PC, e.g. when the run goes into some corp and the decker should
> really go in with the main group, or when the adventure is based
> extensively on the Matrix, and having an NPC pretty much loses all the
> fun in it.
>
I just don't agree with that. I play a Decker by the name of The
Spiral Dancer (who is about to be roughly conversed into VR 2.0 rules)
and he takes full participation in all the action that runs around.
I think that the main decker problem lays on that most think that
deckers are the computer nerds of the Shadowrun game. This stereotype
causes players to create decking nerds that bore everybody else to death.
I am totally against that. My Decker is a full blown decker, with an
excellent fighting ability on the side. (If you'd like his stats, you'll
have to wait for the upcoming Shadowrun Site that I'm creating).

Comment!!!

Mike Yagupsky The Matrix Malkavian

"This is the strangest life I've ever known"
--Jim Morrison

From:	mykul@*******.co.uk (Mike Thomas)
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Wed, 28 Feb 1996 01:55:45 +0000

Message no. 28 >On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote:
>
>>
>> > Here's mine. It seems to me that deckers have always been an awkward
>>part of
>> > the game. They are necessary in a world filled with computers, but they
>> > almost HAVE to work without the bulk of the party. I'm not sure how most
>> > groups handle this, but we usually have the players get a decker
>>"buddy" and
>> > just work them as an NPC to allow the players to participate in the module
>> > more fully.
>> >
>> We've done the same, or have a PC decker but play it solo in between the
>> main group's sessions... There are times a decker would be nice to have
>> as a PC, e.g. when the run goes into some corp and the decker should
>> really go in with the main group, or when the adventure is based
>> extensively on the Matrix, and having an NPC pretty much loses all the
>> fun in it.
>>
>I just don't agree with that. I play a Decker by the name of The
>Spiral Dancer (who is about to be roughly conversed into VR 2.0 rules)
> and he takes full participation in all the action that runs around.
> I think that the main decker problem lays on that most think that
>deckers are the computer nerds of the Shadowrun game. This stereotype
>causes players to create decking nerds that bore everybody else to death.
>I am totally against that. My Decker is a full blown decker, with an
>excellent fighting ability on the side. (If you'd like his stats, you'll
>have to wait for the upcoming Shadowrun Site that I'm creating).
>
I agree with Mike. The Deckers in our parties made pretty fearsome 2nd
string muscle. I think its a case of steriotype rather than archytype. I'm
sure many of you have characters loosly based on the classic architypes but
with interesting variations (both technically and roleplaying-ly). Although
I would say IMHO it is a bit harder to 'jazz up' a decker.
I would love to here from anybody whose is/has PC Deckers in their games
what sort of background/rational they have.

Mykul
8-)

So what is the past tense for "Slot and Run"? "Slut and Ran" or
"Slotted and Ran".......

Suffer No Skrimshankers.

From:	Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:30:27 +0200 (EET)

Message no. 29 On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Mike Thomas wrote:

> >> > groups handle this, but we usually have the players get a decker
> >>"buddy" and
> >> > just work them as an NPC to allow the players to participate in the
module
> >> > more fully.
> >> >
> >> We've done the same, or have a PC decker but play it solo in between the
> >> main group's sessions... There are times a decker would be nice to have
> >> as a PC, e.g. when the run goes into some corp and the decker should
> >> really go in with the main group, or when the adventure is based
> >> extensively on the Matrix, and having an NPC pretty much loses all the
> >> fun in it.
> >>
> >I just don't agree with that. I play a Decker by the name of The
> >Spiral Dancer (who is about to be roughly conversed into VR 2.0 rules)
> > and he takes full participation in all the action that runs around.
> >

The problem with deckers IMHO is, that their main competency is still in
decking. For the player to be able to enjoy the game fully, it would be
good to have some decking in the adventure, and this decking shouldn't be
"roll your Matrix skill two times, I'll give you the info. But that tends to
lead to situations where everybody else has nothing to do while the
decker decks for info. Therefore I tend to make PC deckers do their decking
solo in between main group sessions, as I stated above. When this is not
possible, I believe that having an NPC decker is better.

> I agree with Mike. The Deckers in our parties made pretty fearsome 2nd
> string muscle. I think its a case of steriotype rather than archytype. I'm
> I would love to here from anybody whose is/has PC Deckers in their games
> what sort of background/rational they have.
>
I wrote this a couple of weeks before already, but I have a shaman
adept/decker PC in the game I GMing, who runs with the pack as well. A
slight problem is that this Cat shaman is very curious about everything,
but tends to keep all the info to himself -- so he tells others what he has
found out in the Matrix on a strictly need-to-know basis, which the
others don't like too much... but that's life. We're trying to do the
"in-between" decking through email between gaming sessions.

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
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From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:56:58 +0100

Message no. 30 Michael Yagupsky said on 27 Feb 96...

> I think that the main decker problem lays on that most think that
> deckers are the computer nerds of the Shadowrun game. This stereotype
> causes players to create decking nerds that bore everybody else to death.
> I am totally against that. My Decker is a full blown decker, with an
> excellent fighting ability on the side.

I tend to create deckers who are geared to physically entering buildings
before jacking into the matrix. Not as combat-oriented as street sams etc.
but still with reasonable Firearms and Unarmed Combat skills, and armed
with a shotgun or SMG at least.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
NIEUW!! Maak van je hobby een GEVAARLIJKE HOBBY!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	"Darrin M. Conant" <dconant@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:12:07 -0500

Message no. 31 <<<<<SNIP>>>>>
>>I just don't agree with that. I play a Decker by the name of The
>>Spiral Dancer (who is about to be roughly conversed into VR 2.0 rules)
>> and he takes full participation in all the action that runs around.
>> I think that the main decker problem lays on that most think that
>>deckers are the computer nerds of the Shadowrun game. This stereotype
>>causes players to create decking nerds that bore everybody else to death.
>>I am totally against that.
<<<<<SNIP>>>>>
>I agree with Mike. The Deckers in our parties made pretty fearsome 2nd
>string muscle. I think its a case of steriotype rather than archytype. I'm
<<<<<SNIP>>>>>

While I agree, with that analysis (deckers being nerds by stereotype rather
than archetype) it depends upon the players choices, which sadly I can't
dictate (look guys, I warned you that missles explode when hit by fireballs)
:). When I played in a game I was a rigger/decker with B/R skills from hell
and it worked out fine (although the character was REALLY scary). The main
point I wanted to make was twofold:

1) The matrix is like astral space in that it is invite only. While it seems
easy to add computer 6 and a datajack to a character, the SOTA/BBH (Bigger
Better Hunt) requires that a large chunck of cash be spent just getting set
up and most street sams have better ideas for their cash.
2) There is precious little detail about the matrix beyond the stats needed
to do a run.

Why not spend some time fleshing this area out to make it more usefull for
everyone at ALL levels of interest. I'm sure a street samurai would be
interested in fixers in other countries via the matrix, or a detective type
using it for research on the defenses of an installation, or a mage
contacting other hermetics regarding recent activities. The possibilities
are endless, we just don't have any RULES for it!

Pardon me while I put the soapbox away
--
insert Darrin's signature here
(Impressive, eh?)

From:	Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:39:45 +1100 (EST)

Message no. 32 >I tend to create deckers who are geared to physically entering buildings
>before jacking into the matrix. Not as combat-oriented as street sams etc.
>but still with reasonable Firearms and Unarmed Combat skills, and armed
>with a shotgun or SMG at least.

Hear, hear... Combat deckers are the way to go for a typical team. Crack
the host before entering (the new VR 2.0 system is a LOT faster for
this), leave some delayed commands behind, then re-enter from within the
building. Also helps out when the security doesn't have a Matrix
connection.

--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************

From:	dherr@********.net (David Herr)
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Wed, 28 Feb 96 16:36:01 EST

Message no. 33 On Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:12:07 -0500 you wrote:

>Why not spend some time fleshing this area out to make it more usefull for
>everyone at ALL levels of interest. I'm sure a street samurai would be
>interested in fixers in other countries via the matrix, or a detective type
>using it for research on the defenses of an installation, or a mage
>contacting other hermetics regarding recent activities. The possibilities
>are endless, we just don't have any RULES for it!
>
I agree, I really wish that some of the fiction delt with the matrix
(well some does, but not very well). In fact the best piece of
literature that we have on the matrix is the story in the back of vr
1.0. We as people who really use computers could help on this and we
could also talk to FASA (via e-mail) about what we would like to see.

_________________________________________________________________________
|I have the right to offend whomever |http://www.together.net/~dherr/sams2.html |
|I want just as they have the right to |Come and visit sams web, soon to undergo |
|be offended, or offend me right back. |major reconstruction |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	dion.scher@*******.co.za (DION SCHER)
Subject:	deckers
Date:	Tue, 06 Aug 96 21:48:00 +0200

Message no. 34 Any supplements or ideas relating to what players do between runs.
I know the rules do not encourage much "adventure" in-between runs
but I feel it's a major part of the game that's being left out.
After all the Srun would is so rich, why not let your players
experience it from angles other than the shadows?

For example, what does the rest of the group do during game time
when one is in hospital?
My problem has been equating the two: If one goes in for surgery.
Say it takes 3 weeks to heal from the major surgery. How do you let
the other players fill in that time, without absolutely excluding
that player who's been in surgery. If you did exclude him, why
bother even playing with the guy. You might as well have just
invited all the players bar one.

So then, as a GM, how do you fill up that time for the other
players; other than saying " Three weeks pass uneventfully:)"; and
what with?

---
* SPEED 2.00 [NR] * Yes my son, long ago mail was read 1 packet at a time.

From:	Mike Kinnan <makst44+@****.edu>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:20:31 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 35 On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, DION SCHER wrote:

>
> Any supplements or ideas relating to what players do between runs.
> I know the rules do not encourage much "adventure" in-between runs
> but I feel it's a major part of the game that's being left out.
> After all the Srun would is so rich, why not let your players
> experience it from angles other than the shadows?
>
> For example, what does the rest of the group do during game time
> when one is in hospital?
> My problem has been equating the two: If one goes in for surgery.
> Say it takes 3 weeks to heal from the major surgery. How do you let
> the other players fill in that time, without absolutely excluding
> that player who's been in surgery. If you did exclude him, why
> bother even playing with the guy. You might as well have just
> invited all the players bar one.
>
> So then, as a GM, how do you fill up that time for the other
> players; other than saying " Three weeks pass uneventfully:)"; and
> what with?

In my group, each player has two different characters. When one goes in
for surgery, the player's other character fills the void. This works out
rather well because the group has two of everything (except riggers:().
Before we started using two characters though I had the same problem that
you do. Unless certain circumstances pop up, each player only has one
character on each run. Hope this helps.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
\ Mike Kinnan (makst44+@****.edu) \
\__________________ Hitch-hiking on the information superhighway!\
\Win in you can, \ The true definition of champions: Joe Sakic, \
\Lose if you must,\ Mike Ricci, Patrick Roy, Adam Foote, and the \
\But always cheat!\ remainder of the Colorado Avalanche. \
--------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:19:20 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 36 > Any supplements or ideas relating to what players do between runs.
> I know the rules do not encourage much "adventure" in-between runs
> but I feel it's a major part of the game that's being left out.
> After all the Srun would is so rich, why not let your players
> experience it from angles other than the shadows?

Good point! Our party decker is (justifiably) upset because not only does
he get to do sod-all decking since no-one but him knows the VR2 rules
well enough, but he has to suffer on the same street lifestyle as the
rest of us since there's no way of defining his between-runs earning
ability. (Which, based on the decker's abilities, ought to be huge.)
Anyone got any ideas?

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
"There are worse things than death...
and I can do all of them." - The Plague
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------

From:	Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:16:19 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 37 On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, The Jestyr wrote:

> Good point! Our party decker is (justifiably) upset because not only does
> he get to do sod-all decking since no-one but him knows the VR2 rules
> well enough, but he has to suffer on the same street lifestyle as the
> rest of us since there's no way of defining his between-runs earning
> ability. (Which, based on the decker's abilities, ought to be huge.)
> Anyone got any ideas?

Yeah, just one. Have your GM get *real* familiar with the VR2.0
rules and run the guy the way he deserves.

Marc

From:	mr.self-destruct@********.de (mr. self-destruct)
Subject:	RE: Re: deckers
Date:	Thu, 8 Aug 96 21:34 +0100

Message no. 38 > Good point! Our party decker is (justifiably) upset because not only does
> he get to do sod-all decking since no-one but him knows the VR2 rules
> well enough, but he has to suffer on the same street lifestyle as the
> rest of us since there's no way of defining his between-runs earning
> ability. (Which, based on the decker's abilities, ought to be huge.)
> Anyone got any ideas?

> Lady Jestyr

That's really a big problem with deckers in general. Maybe one should try to
solve it simply by roleplaying. Why should anybody who can earn a lot of money on
his own (and a good decker is perfectly capable of this) even think about joining
a shadowrunner team? If it is not for money, what for then? Only 'cause he needs
some buddies to protect his ass while he's online? Don't think so, 'cause in that
case you don't need a permanent team, you can surely afford a personal bodyguard
or something.
So, in my group there are a decker/rigger character, who just loves virtual
realities, whatever kind (yes, he's a chiphead also) and an Otaku who was just
kicked out of the Denver Data Haven who is more the information-longs-to-be-free
kind of decker. Both of them use the matrix mainly to get information or for
entertainment (in a way); just digging out paydata to get money is boring. Maybe
one can say that this is the Hacker-Ethic of the 21st century (much like today):
lurk, listen, but don't touch unless you have (personal) reason.
That would certainly also mean that these deckers would not accept runs like:
crash system of corp A, receive 15k for it. If they really needed the money, they
just as well could have done some data-theft.
Whaddyathink?

******************************************************************************
* There is nothing humans love as much and treat as bad as their own lives *
* -La Bruyere *
******************************************************************************

From:	The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:05:13 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 39 >
> > Good point! Our party decker is (justifiably) upset because not only does
> > he get to do sod-all decking since no-one but him knows the VR2 rules
> > well enough, but he has to suffer on the same street lifestyle as the
> > rest of us since there's no way of defining his between-runs earning
> > ability. (Which, based on the decker's abilities, ought to be huge.)
> > Anyone got any ideas?
>
> Yeah, just one. Have your GM get *real* familiar with the VR2.0
> rules and run the guy the way he deserves.

Tried that, never gonna happen... gms whinge that Matrix runs take too
long and bore all the other players. The decker and I (the decker's
player is my boyfriend, so I'm sorta biased) try to point out that one
Matrix run a month would keep him happy and only bore everyone else once
a month while he's bored all the rest of the time... doesn't seem to have
had much effect so far.

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
"There are worse things than death...
and I can do all of them." - The Plague
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------

From:	Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:45:07 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 40 On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, The Jestyr wrote:

> >
> > > Good point! Our party decker is (justifiably) upset because not only does
> > > he get to do sod-all decking since no-one but him knows the VR2 rules
> > > well enough, but he has to suffer on the same street lifestyle as the
> > > rest of us since there's no way of defining his between-runs earning
> > > ability. (Which, based on the decker's abilities, ought to be huge.)
> > > Anyone got any ideas?
> >
> > Yeah, just one. Have your GM get *real* familiar with the VR2.0
> > rules and run the guy the way he deserves.
>
> Tried that, never gonna happen... gms whinge that Matrix runs take too
> long and bore all the other players. The decker and I (the decker's
> player is my boyfriend, so I'm sorta biased) try to point out that one
> Matrix run a month would keep him happy and only bore everyone else once
> a month while he's bored all the rest of the time... doesn't seem to have
> had much effect so far.
>

*Looking Meek* I'll look into it...Okay?

>
> Lady Jestyr

===================================================================
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go,
because, man, they're gone.
===================================================================
The Joker,
Craig Chatfield. Email : s1057948@*****.student.gu.au

===================================================================
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.
And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never
expect it.

From:	bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 01:23:55 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 41 >On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, The Jestyr wrote:
>
>> >
>> > > Good point! Our party decker is (justifiably) upset because not only
does
>> > > he get to do sod-all decking since no-one but him knows the VR2 rules
>> > > well enough, but he has to suffer on the same street lifestyle as the
>> > > rest of us since there's no way of defining his between-runs earning
>> > > ability. (Which, based on the decker's abilities, ought to be huge.)
>> > > Anyone got any ideas?
>> >
>> > Yeah, just one. Have your GM get *real* familiar with the VR2.0
>> > rules and run the guy the way he deserves.
>>
>> Tried that, never gonna happen... gms whinge that Matrix runs take too
>> long and bore all the other players. The decker and I (the decker's
>> player is my boyfriend, so I'm sorta biased) try to point out that one
>> Matrix run a month would keep him happy and only bore everyone else once
>> a month while he's bored all the rest of the time... doesn't seem to have
>> had much effect so far.

The only way we have ever managed to handle decking was one on one outside
the main game. This was when I had copious freetime, and spent several
months learning VR2.0 with the decker. This was also with a small team of
two permanent players, and four hanger's on. In a larger group, I simply
don't allow PC deckers.
It may be cheap, but it's the only way that works.

From:	Helge_DiernÃŠs <hedi93ac@*******.ECON.CBS.DK>
Subject:	FW: deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:36:57 +0200

Message no. 42 >From: Marc A Renouf[SMTP:jormung@*****.umich.edu]
>Sent: 8. august 1996 16:16
>
>On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, The Jestyr wrote:
>
>> Good point! Our party decker is (justifiably) upset because not only does
>> he get to do sod-all decking since no-one but him knows the VR2 rules
>> well enough, but he has to suffer on the same street lifestyle as the
>> rest of us since there's no way of defining his between-runs earning
>> ability. (Which, based on the decker's abilities, ought to be huge.)
>> Anyone got any ideas?
>
> Yeah, just one. Have your GM get *real* familiar with the VR2.0
>rules and run the guy the way he deserves.
>
>Agreed. Make sure there is room for a decker in your GM's style, and
>get the Matrix 2.0 Host Generator to windows from
>www.interware.it/users/paolo/sr2/
>
>That makes planned as well as unforseen matrixruns quite easy for a GM
>as much of the boring, am-I-too-evil work is taken away. The program is
>pure evil :)
>BTW, if in doubt, use SOTA :Q
>
>--
>Sil
>
>

From:	Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 09 Aug 96 11:56:00 PDT

Message no. 43 :> Good point! Our party decker is (justifiably) upset because not only
:> does
:> he get to do sod-all decking since no-one but him knows the VR2 rules
:> well enough, but he has to suffer on the same street lifestyle as the
:> rest of us since there's no way of defining his between-runs earning
:> ability. (Which, based on the decker's abilities, ought to be huge.)
:> Anyone got any ideas?

:> Lady Jestyr

:Why should anybody who can earn a lot of money on his own (and a good
:decker is perfectly capable of this) even think about joining a
:shadowrunner team? If it is not for money, what for then?

I was always very suspect of the ability of a decker to waltz into a
system that contains information so valuable that someone would pay for
it. I don't know how recent source material constructs their systems,
but I always used to put the best security on the Gateway Node (red,
best ICe affordable, decker on continuous overwatch, etc). The security
is usually so hot that they cannot be broken by anything other than the
*BEST*.
This means that deckers might have to physically *break* into
the building to bypass the gateway node. That's where he needs a
Shadowrun team. Also how does he fence paydata ? More to the point how
does he recognise paydata (I don't buy that software assessment stuff
one bit). R/D stuff would mostly be over the deckers head. Information
Logs would have to be well assessed to discern interesting details.
What's the deckers Appraisal Skill ? His Negotiation (Bargain) Skill ?
Hell, the most valuable information probably wouldn't even be on the
net. All my experience tells me that most deckers would simply get done,
they wouldn't make much from Paydata. Even fencing the information is
dangerous, if you do it over the net, the most likely buyers would be
corporate agents trying to search for the thief. To do it safely, you'd
have to sell it to a fence, which is going to reduce your cut by the
addition of a middle man. Announcing to the net that you have X
information to sell is the best way of telling the owners who stole it.
Information is a strange commodity, it's value varies by who you're
selling to.

Richard.

:That would certainly also mean that these deckers would not accept runs
:like:
:crash system of corp A, receive 15k for it. If they really needed
:the money, they just as well could have done some data-theft.
:Whaddyathink?

From:	The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 21:13:50 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 44 > >> Tried that, never gonna happen... gms whinge that Matrix runs take too
> >> long and bore all the other players. The decker and I (the decker's
> >> player is my boyfriend, so I'm sorta biased) try to point out that one
> >> Matrix run a month would keep him happy and only bore everyone else once
> >> a month while he's bored all the rest of the time... doesn't seem to have
> >> had much effect so far.
>
> The only way we have ever managed to handle decking was one on one outside
> the main game. This was when I had copious freetime, and spent several
> months learning VR2.0 with the decker. This was also with a small team of
> two permanent players, and four hanger's on. In a larger group, I simply
> don't allow PC deckers.
> It may be cheap, but it's the only way that works.

Sounds fine by me, I don't have a problem with that, but the guy in
question was allowed to create his decker character and allowed to
continue with it. So far all he's been given to hack was an elevator in
the MCT building in Bug City, and THAT had a system rating of Red-12...
(that was a bastard GM in control at the time...)

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
"There are worse things than death...
and I can do all of them." - The Plague
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------

From:	The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 21:36:31 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 45 > I was always very suspect of the ability of a decker to waltz into a
> system that contains information so valuable that someone would pay for
> it. I don't know how recent source material constructs their systems,
> but I always used to put the best security on the Gateway Node (red,
> best ICe affordable, decker on continuous overwatch, etc). The security
> is usually so hot that they cannot be broken by anything other than the
> *BEST*.

Good point... but think of all the ways that deckers can support
themselves in great lifestyles without acquiring paydata. They can find
leases where the tenant has just died, and amend that little piece of
information, and diddle the agent's computers to think it's gettting
regularly paid. They can transfer permanent titles into their own names.
They can fix bank computers (NOT the huge ones, but GOOD deckers like the
one I'm talking about ought to be able to handle a small to middling bank)
to appear to have greater investments than they do. They can find cases
where someone has died and their inheritors are already dead, and then
easily assume the identity of the inheritor. Hell, they can put themselves
on the payroll of a corp as a contractor for miscellaneous services...

OK, so some of these aren't so feasible, and some are too hard even for a
good decker. That doesn't mean that a decker's lifestyle has to rely on
the paydata they can scrounge. If a hacker can erase another person's
life (where do you think the saying "Never piss off a decker" came from?)
I'm sure they can create a reasonable life for themselves without having
to steal data to sell.

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
"There are worse things than death...
and I can do all of them." - The Plague
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------

From:	PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 96 21:00:32 PDT

Message no. 46 ---------------Original Message---------------

Good point... but think of all the ways that deckers can
support themselves in great lifestyles without acquiring
paydata. They can find leases where the tenant has just died,
and amend that little piece of information, and diddle the
agent's computers to think it's gettting regularly paid. They
can transfer permanent titles into their own names.
They can fix bank computers (NOT the huge ones, but GOOD deckers like the one I'm talking
about ought to be able to handle a small to middling bank) to appear to have greater
investments than they do. They can find cases where someone
has died and their inheritors are already dead, and then
easily assume the identity of the inheritor. Hell, they can put
themselves on the payroll of a corp as a contractor for
miscellaneous services...

OK, so some of these aren't so feasible, and some are too hard even for a good decker.
That doesn't mean that a decker's
lifestyle has to rely on the paydata they can scrounge. If a
hacker can erase another person's life (where do you think the
saying "Never piss off a decker" came from?)

I'm sure they can create a reasonable life for themselves without having to steal data to
sell.

Elle Holmes
----------End of Original Message----------
I have never seen a Decker with skills to pull any of the above off. Sure, deckers are
masters of information systems but how many of them have an expertise of the information
stored on them. I see a strong knowledge of accounting being necessary to pull off all of
the above. Not to mention, an understanding of how an organization keeps record so you
can forge them. A decker can manipulate records but will the record pass through an audit
or how long will it pass. These are skill that most deckers are not going to have. Any
one have any deckers will skills like these?

Patrick

From:	Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject:	Re: Deckers
Date:	Fri, 09 Aug 96 13:19:00 PDT

Message no. 47 Elle wrote:
[snip~description of Decker's various cons]

>OK, so some of these aren't so feasible, and some are too hard even for
>a good decker.

I'd say quite a lot of them are quite beyond even the best deckers. I'd
say *anything* to do with altering bank records to be beyond the ability
of a decker working alone.

Consider this: If a bank's records could be hacked, then they *would* be
hacked. Knowledge of this would get out, and the customers would lose
confidence in the bank's ability to safeguard their savings. People
would withdraw their money and the bank would go bust. I'd say that this
has probably happened many times in SR's history, and that the only
banks that are left are the ones who managed to survive this ie the
toughest, biggest banks. All financial records are probably encrypted to
hell and back, all transactions backed up & logged all over the place,
multiple redundancies, and error/authentification detection & correction
strong enough to discover a deckers crude attempts at accountancy.

However, this would bring rise to one of the most useful aspects of
being a decker: money tracing. Because everything is logged,
transactions can easily be traced.

>That doesn't mean that a decker's lifestyle has to rely on
>the paydata they can scrounge.

I would say the best source of income for a decker would be working with
a ghost bank (see R.Tal's Wildside): working in an illegal organisation
to launder & mask transactions, and also do some SIN scrubbing. A large
organisation would be the only thing that could conduct this kind of
operation. These organisations would be few in number, but are probably
some of the most powerful organisations on the planet.

:If a hacker can erase another person's
:life (where do you think the saying "Never piss off a decker" came
:from?) I'm sure they can create a reasonable life for themselves
:without having to steal data to sell.

It's easier to destroy than create. To erase someone's life you just
overwrite all records you find belonging to them. To create a new
electronic identity you have to fabricate a whole range of details that
fit in, complement each other, and stand up to scrutiny. It's not that
easy...

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 09:21:50 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 48 At 09:13 PM 8/9/96 +1000, Lady Jestyr wrote:

>Sounds fine by me, I don't have a problem with that, but the guy in
>question was allowed to create his decker character and allowed to
>continue with it. So far all he's been given to hack was an elevator in
>the MCT building in Bug City, and THAT had a system rating of Red-12...
>(that was a bastard GM in control at the time...)

Red-12 !??!!??! *boggle*

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484

From:	The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 23:28:15 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 49 > >Sounds fine by me, I don't have a problem with that, but the guy in
> >question was allowed to create his decker character and allowed to
> >continue with it. So far all he's been given to hack was an elevator in
> >the MCT building in Bug City, and THAT had a system rating of Red-12...
> >(that was a bastard GM in control at the time...)
>
> Red-12 !??!!??! *boggle*

Yes. Said GM was being a right sod. "Hey, it's MCT, it's MEANT to be
difficult"... suffice to say, we got us a new GM.

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
"There are worse things than death...
and I can do all of them." - The Plague
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------

From:	SINless@**.netcom.com (Ross Hammer)
Subject:	Re: deckers
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 22:05:30 -0700

Message no. 50 >
>The only way we have ever managed to handle decking was one on one outside
>the main game. This was when I had copious freetime, and spent several
>months learning VR2.0 with the decker. This was also with a small team of
>two permanent players, and four hanger's on. In a larger group, I simply
>don't allow PC deckers.
>It may be cheap, but it's the only way that works.
>

I have heard something about a program that generates a Matrix, then allows you
to enter in a characters stats (or generate them right there), and then run the
Matrix. I'm gonna browse the net for it (I hear it was there SOMEWHERE). If I
find it, I'll post where it is... If I don't, I'll start coding my own (or mayhap
I will anyhow... don't know how good this thing is supposed to be ... ;-) ...)
Any which way, there should be something of the sort available in the (semi)near
future! Then all you need is to play somewhere there is a computer, pause long
enough to run the decker through the computer-generated matrix (much faster...
the comp will do all the calculation, etc.), and then continue play in the
physical/spiritual realms...

-SINless

Message no. 51 I have heard something about a program that generates a Matrix, then allows you
>to enter in a characters stats (or generate them right there), and then run
the
>Matrix. I'm gonna browse the net for it (I hear it was there SOMEWHERE). If I
>find it, I'll post where it is... If I don't, I'll start coding my own (or
mayhap
>I will anyhow... don't know how good this thing is supposed to be ... ;-) ...)
>Any which way, there should be something of the sort available in the
(semi)near
>future! Then all you need is to play somewhere there is a computer, pause long
>enough to run the decker through the computer-generated matrix (much faster...
>the comp will do all the calculation, etc.), and then continue play in the
>physical/spiritual realms...
>
>-SINless
>
>
>
>I did find something like this in the Shadowrun Archives, but haven't had a
chance to test it yet.
We have the problem under control for now. I simply try to run with the
decker in detail by himself, and in general with the team,

Message no. 52 Everyones ears Perked up when Ross Hammer said:
>
> Postage paid by: [Image]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> >The only way we have ever managed to handle decking was one on one outside
> >the main game. This was when I had copious freetime, and spent several
> >months learning VR2.0 with the decker. This was also with a small team of
> >two permanent players, and four hanger's on. In a larger group, I simply
> >don't allow PC deckers.
> >It may be cheap, but it's the only way that works.
> >
>
> I have heard something about a program that generates a Matrix, then allows you
> to enter in a characters stats (or generate them right there), and then run the
> Matrix. I'm gonna browse the net for it (I hear it was there SOMEWHERE). If I
> find it, I'll post where it is... If I don't, I'll start coding my own (or mayhap
> I will anyhow... don't know how good this thing is supposed to be ... ;-) ...)
> Any which way, there should be something of the sort available in the (semi)near
> future! Then all you need is to play somewhere there is a computer, pause long
> enough to run the decker through the computer-generated matrix (much faster...
> the comp will do all the calculation, etc.), and then continue play in the
> physical/spiritual realms...
>
> -SINlessThe search should include the words "Shadowrun Archive"

Message no. 53 You wrote:
>
>
>---------------Original Message---------------
>
>Good point... but think of all the ways that deckers can
>support themselves in great lifestyles without acquiring
>paydata. They can find leases where the tenant has just died,
>and amend that little piece of information, and diddle the
>agent's computers to think it's gettting regularly paid. They
>can transfer permanent titles into their own names.
>They can fix bank computers (NOT the huge ones, but GOOD deckers like
the one I'm talking about ought to be able to handle a small to
middling bank) to appear to have greater
>investments than they do. They can find cases where someone
>has died and their inheritors are already dead, and then
>easily assume the identity of the inheritor. Hell, they can put
>themselves on the payroll of a corp as a contractor for
>miscellaneous services...
>
>OK, so some of these aren't so feasible, and some are too hard even
for a good decker. That doesn't mean that a decker's
>lifestyle has to rely on the paydata they can scrounge. If a
>hacker can erase another person's life (where do you think the
>saying "Never piss off a decker" came from?)
>
>I'm sure they can create a reasonable life for themselves without
having to steal data to sell.
>
>
>
>Elle Holmes
>----------End of Original Message----------
>I have never seen a Decker with skills to pull any of the above off. Sure,
deckers are masters of information systems but how many of them have an expertise
of the information stored on them. I see a strong knowledge of accounting being
necessary to pull off all of the above. Not to mention, an understanding of how
an organization keeps record so you can forge them. A decker can manipulate
records but will the record pass through an audit or how long will it pass.
These are skill that most deckers are not going to have. Any one have any
deckers will skills like these?
>
>Patrick
>
>

uhm... yeah! I have a decker that could prob. do most of the above! (depending on
the GM, of course...)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

MPCP 13 Attack 12 Act. ***KEY***
Hardening 6 Sleeze 12 Act. = Active
Act. Memory 650 Analyze 12 <Blank> = InActive
Stor. Memory 1300 Restore 12 O/L = OffLine
Load Speed 120 Medic 12 O/L
I/O Speed 60 Relocate 12
Response 2 (7+3d6 initiative) Browse 12 O/L
Evaluate 12 O/L
BOD 12 Decrypt 12 O/L
Evasion 12 Slow 12 O/L
Masking 12 Compressor 6 Act.
Sensors 12

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intelligence 6 Willpower 5

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Electronics . . . . . 7 Hacking Pool (19)
Computer, Software . . . 13
Computer Theory, Software 8

DataJack ChipJack
100mp Memory DisplayLink
etc...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, those are all the pertinant stats (I may get flamed for posting all
that... <grin>). Anyhow, he's a 1st Ed. character, and I believe he cuold take on a
number of the tasked that were listed... I have another character that has a
slightly better deck, but his stats aren't even comparable (the other guys deck was
a present from another decker).

-SINless

Message no. 54 >
> Well, those are all the pertinant stats (I may get flamed for posting all
> that... <grin>). Anyhow, he's a 1st Ed. character, and I believe he cuold take
on a
> number of the tasked that were listed... I have another character that has a
> slightly better deck, but his stats aren't even comparable (the other guys deck was
> a present from another decker).

Well, our decker is pretty comparable, under VR2 rules. Mostly cause he
built his deck himself, so it took him a while to get it but it was damn
good...

Last night's session, he crapped all over a Red-14 system - that HE'D
designed to be hard.

Look at it this way - his Matrix initiative is 21+6d6 (rude, I know!).
Black IC goes at System Rating +5d6 - say about 14+5d6. There's no way he
won't beat the IC...

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
"There are worse things than death...
and I can do all of them." - The Plague
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 55 In article <199608100505.WAA09896@*******.ix.netcom.com>, Ross Hammer
<SINless@**.netcom.com> writes
>>
>>The only way we have ever managed to handle decking was one on one outside
>>the main game. This was when I had copious freetime, and spent several
>>months learning VR2.0 with the decker. This was also with a small team of
>>two permanent players, and four hanger's on. In a larger group, I simply
>>don't allow PC deckers.
>>It may be cheap, but it's the only way that works.
>>
>
>I have heard something about a program that generates a Matrix, then allows you
>to enter in a characters stats (or generate them right there), and then run the
>Matrix. I'm gonna browse the net for it (I hear it was there SOMEWHERE). If I
>find it, I'll post where it is... If I don't, I'll start coding my own (or
>mayhap
>I will anyhow... don't know how good this thing is supposed to be ... ;-) ...)
>Any which way, there should be something of the sort available in the (semi)near
>future! Then all you need is to play somewhere there is a computer, pause long
>enough to run the decker through the computer-generated matrix (much faster...
>the comp will do all the calculation, etc.), and then continue play in the
>physical/spiritual realms...
>
>-SINless
>
The program is pretty good, I scrounged a copy off the net a while ago.
But it doesn't solve everything, there is another one, which gives you
a decker type interface, but is only really useable in the registered
form. It does mean that you can pre-generate a system and let the
Decker/player run for real, while everything is going on with the rest
of the team. However, there are inherent problems with this. Sometimes
a player can have a sequence of stunning rolls with the dice, I have
never noticed the computer give that bonus, the program also leaves a
couple of other things to be desired, but until I've worked with it
properly, I can't really critisize it. (Besides, I couldn't have written
it).

There are a few ways to speed up decking, one obvious one, is one I use
myself, and that is to run it prior to the game. Another, that I know
to be used by a friend, is to have the decker character make a series of
rolls prior to the game, these are noted on paper, and used to
facilitate the matrix run, the decker makes the decisions, but there is
no waiting for dice rolling. I don't like the scheme myself, as it is a
little too limiting. The other way, is to cut out most of the matrix
stuff suggested by FASA rules, and run the decker as you would the rest
of the team, he has a problem and requires a skill roll to overcome it.
This would allow him to penetrate the Matrix system, in conjunction with
skill rolls required by the other players, and keeps the game rolling
along.

I have had a look at the Netrunning side of Cyberpunk, and it is a tad
quicker than Shadowrun, but just as complex in other ways.

The Matrix is an extremely complicated place, and requires great skill
to illegaly deck within it. Not counting the innate security of any
system, there is always the system administrator, and any associated
company deckers to deal with. In the long run, the Matrix is as alive
and detailed and complex as you choose to make it. In the interests of
game play, I prefer to make it very simple. But if the system is large
and expensive, then it usually requires that the decker makes a seperate
night of it.

However, as I've said before, it does require a player who can keep his
trap shut, and doesn't give things away to the other players. In this
sense, I prefer to trust my players, as any advance warning of things
to come spoils their enloyment of the game, not mine. As I said, I can
trust my players, though they have a couple of the sourcebooks, only
one has the actual game manual, and none have purchased modules. How's
that for good guys and gals???
>

--
Pete Sims

Message no. 56 In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960809110331.23209B-100000@*****.student.gu.ed
u.au>, The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au> writes
>>
>> > Good point! Our party decker is (justifiably) upset because not only does
>> > he get to do sod-all decking since no-one but him knows the VR2 rules
>> > well enough, but he has to suffer on the same street lifestyle as the
>> > rest of us since there's no way of defining his between-runs earning
>> > ability. (Which, based on the decker's abilities, ought to be huge.)
>> > Anyone got any ideas?
>>
>> Yeah, just one. Have your GM get *real* familiar with the VR2.0
>> rules and run the guy the way he deserves.
>
>Tried that, never gonna happen... gms whinge that Matrix runs take too
>long and bore all the other players. The decker and I (the decker's
>player is my boyfriend, so I'm sorta biased) try to point out that one
>Matrix run a month would keep him happy and only bore everyone else once
>a month while he's bored all the rest of the time... doesn't seem to have
>had much effect so far.
>
As a GM, I agree with the "whinge" bit, one of the major complaints in
the game, and this is from my players as well, is that the Decker takes
up a tremendous amount of game time, when in theory his "run" is taking
seconds to minutes. In an attempt to change this (before VR2.0) I tried
all sorts of different methods of Dealing with Deckers. None were
particularly satisfactory, they either made the run too easy, or too
difficult. The only other thing that I found worked, was to run the
decker before the actual game itself, I did this on several occasions,
and it worked very well, the player, although he had advanced knowledge
of his success/failure, was smart enough not to let on. The team
continued on the run, with the decker, and I was able to cover the
decker's actions in the ,atrix from the results gained from the pre-game
play.

It allowed the decker's player to get into the game, until he jacked in,
and knowing the results of his run, was able to communicate with the
team (through PA, if available). This allowed me to continue with the
"main" run, and no-one got bored. If the decker screwed up, he was
looking forward to the other players reaction when they found out, all
sorts of possibilities arose, and we had a lot of fun with it, until the
Decker got fried one evening. (The player chose a different archetype
and the team now use an NPC decker)

The above idea does require a good player, and not one who will give the
game away. Seeing as I don't have a monopoly on good players, I am sure
there are a lot more out there who could carry this out. It does work,
and it means that on an "official" game night, we don't have the multi
hour delays for decker activities. There are some faults with the idea,
ie work/school/college commitments, but 90 percent of the time I can't
forsee any probs.

The only real advantage I have, is a *very* dedicated group of players.
>
>Lady Jestyr
>
>------------------------------------------------------
> "There are worse things than death...
> and I can do all of them." - The Plague
>------------------------------------------------------
>Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
>------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Pete Sims

Message no. 57 DION SCHER write
>
> For example, what does the rest of the group do during game time
> when one is in hospital?
ring contacts, research spells, work on vehicles, take initiations
etc.

> My problem has been equating the two: If one goes in for surgery.
> Say it takes 3 weeks to heal from the major surgery. How do you let
> the other players fill in that time, without absolutely excluding
> that player who's been in surgery.
This is only moderately easy to deal with if occasionally (usually
when campain time has fallen months behind the nominal 61 years ahead
of real time) the GM tells the players 'you have x weeks/months till
i'm offering you another run'. They can then plan on doing their
downtime all at once. Its a bit artificial but unless you want
players excluded/unhappy playing alternate characters or the team
simply turning down everything till they are all available again its
generally required. Might be a bit unrealistic but it allows players
to take the real world into account.

> If you did exclude him, why
> bother even playing with the guy. You might as well have just
> invited all the players bar one.
>
Why you sometimes have to use 'player information' in the interests
of a better game. A bit of care can avoid a lot of problems, even if
its using info the characters don't have, players enjoyment come
first.

> So then, as a GM, how do you fill up that time for the other
> players; other than saying " Three weeks pass uneventfully:)"; and
> what with?
>
Tends to happen with starting groups, more experienced characters
usually can think of something to do with downtime. It might simply
be ring contacts kit hunting but they usually manage somethng. Unless
you are able to organise extra sessions or time the character in
hospital with a player on holiday (and no one mind s possible karma
imbalances that will probably result) theres not much you can do
without boring players. Some things can be done (assuming 30 mins or
less) but not usually actual runs.

Mark

Message no. 58 >Look at it this way - his Matrix initiative is 21+6d6 (rude, I know!).
>Black IC goes at System Rating +5d6 - say about 14+5d6. There's no way he
>won't beat the IC...

"Party IC, dudes"... try doing that to a gang of 4 Black IC, or even 2
Black IC and 2 gray... Futhermore, the fight itself is going to make
noise, pumping the alert level through the roof, which means the run, as
a covert op, is likely to be blown.

Furthermore, are you using SOTA rules fully? I find that while MAKING a
good decker with a wide range of programs isn't hard, just time
consuming, keeping the decker at that level of power with programs and
hardware ends up taking more and more time... A group of deckers
operating together will be able to outhack even a much better decker
simply through the reduction in software development time.

--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************

Message no. 59 > >Look at it this way - his Matrix initiative is 21+6d6 (rude, I know!).
> >Black IC goes at System Rating +5d6 - say about 14+5d6. There's no way he
> >won't beat the IC...
>
> "Party IC, dudes"... try doing that to a gang of 4 Black IC, or even 2
> Black IC and 2 gray... Futhermore, the fight itself is going to make
> noise, pumping the alert level through the roof, which means the run, as
> a covert op, is likely to be blown.

Good point. I'm not fully familiar with the rules on IC. Obviously no
character is going to be foolproof; all of them have a weakness. This one
just has less than most :)

> Furthermore, are you using SOTA rules fully? I find that while MAKING a
> good decker with a wide range of programs isn't hard, just time
> consuming, keeping the decker at that level of power with programs and
> hardware ends up taking more and more time... A group of deckers
> operating together will be able to outhack even a much better decker
> simply through the reduction in software development time.

Yes, we HAVE been playing SOTA rules. For quite a while we were trapped
in Bug City, so of course no SOTA was applicable. When we got out, the
decker made the modified SOTA roll and no SOTA was applied. I think we've
had SOTA rolls twice more since then, and each time he's had NO SOTA.
This guy is *lucky* :)

In any case, his character spends literally all his spare time writing
programs. (And if you've written the program yourself, I think there's a
rule that says it's easier to upgrade it to keep up with SOTA. Which does
make sense.)

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
"There are worse things than death...
and I can do all of them." - The Plague
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 60 On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> The only way we have ever managed to handle decking was one on one outside
> the main game. This was when I had copious freetime, and spent several
> months learning VR2.0 with the decker. This was also with a small team of
> two permanent players, and four hanger's on. In a larger group, I simply
> don't allow PC deckers.
> It may be cheap, but it's the only way that works.
>
I also found this the best way to run deckers, it is also Very usufull
for roleplaying to have only NPC deckers, But the decker in our curret
group works well and has the skills to keep up with us in gun fights and
the contacts that allow our runs to go smoother.

===================================================================
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go,
because, man, they're gone.
===================================================================
The Joker,
Craig Chatfield. Email : s1057948@*****.student.gu.au

===================================================================
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.
And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never
expect it.

Message no. 61 On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Pete Sims wrote:

> difficult. The only other thing that I found worked, was to run the
> decker before the actual game itself, I did this on several occasions,
> and it worked very well, the player, although he had advanced knowledge
> of his success/failure, was smart enough not to let on. The team
> continued on the run, with the decker, and I was able to cover the
> decker's actions in the ,atrix from the results gained from the pre-game
> play.

We've done this but we don't know how it worked becuase we haven't gotten
to the part we're the decker is in over watch yet... I think It will work
well though......

===================================================================
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go,
because, man, they're gone.
===================================================================
The Joker,
Craig Chatfield. Email : s1057948@*****.student.gu.au

===================================================================
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.
And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never
expect it.

Message no. 62 Does anyone Play a decker ?

Message no. 63 > Does anyone Play a decker ?

Yes.

Oh, you meant WHO? Sorry. *grin*

Well, I do...

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------

Message no. 64 At 10:58 AM 3/10/97 -0800, stephen wolfe wrote these timeless words:
>Does anyone Play a decker ?
>
Are you new? I think so... So....

Hello! Welcome to the ShadowRn list! Glad to have you aboard! Hope ya
like mail! :]

Anyways, to answer the Question, yeah, I play a decker... An Ork Decker...

Why?

Bull-the-welcome-bot-Ork-Decker

Message no. 65 At 10:58 AM 3/10/97 -0800, stephen wolfe wrote these timeless words:
>Does anyone Play a decker ?
>
Are you new? I think so... So....

Hello! Welcome to the ShadowRn list! Glad to have you aboard! Hope ya
like mail! :]

Anyways, to answer the Question, yeah, I play a decker... An Ork Decker...

Why?

Bull-the-welcome-bot-Ork-Decker
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You know, I think I had a dream that I'd go out like
this, only I was wearing a dress."
-Mighty max

Message no. 66 On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:58:24 -0800 stephen wolfe <twowolfe@*******.net>
writes:
>Does anyone Play a decker ?
>
Yes, no, maybe:) A lot of people don't, at least not if they don't have
the VR2 rules. That would be because the SR2 original rules are . . .
unwieldy would be a good term. I know that none of my players does
because they cannot understand the SR2 Matrix rules.

So, I bought VR 2.0 (still don't have a decker, but I've got at least one
guy who's willing to try).

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 67 Quite some time ago (like in '91), I posted a request for descriptions of
deckers. The idea was to compile a list of deckers that GMs could use to
populate the Matrix in their games. No stats, just visual discriptions.
Since most of the people who contributed to the list then are no longer
actively posting, I thought I'd try it again. Call it Deckers: the New
Batch, I guess.

Send me your decker descriptions, and I'll edit them all into a big
document and send it somewhere, probably to TSS. Please format your mail
into the following sections:

Matrix Appearance: Describe how decker looks in Matrix.
Style: Describe decking and personal style.
Attitude: Describe the face/personality decker shows to public. How
others see decker.
View: He decker sees the Matrix (i.e. Reality Filter).

BTW, you can see the results of the earlier batch in the Personalities
section of the Neo-Anarchists' Guide to Everything Else
(http://www.flashpt.com/~lward/personal/nagee.html). Please don't submit
any decker which was in the original.

Wordman
wordman@*******.com

Message no. 68 At 22:27 02/05/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Send me your decker descriptions, and I'll edit them all into a big
>document and send it somewhere, probably to TSS. Please format your mail
>into the following sections:

Hey, good idea, and thanks :)
The decker descriptions was one of my favourite parts of NAGEE, and it
would go well in TSS, IMO..

BTW, Issue #8 is shaping up well, but if somebody would have some short to
medium length corporate encounters/runs/modules, they would fit really well
with this issue. If any of you think you could provide these, let me know.

Thanks,
-Adam

-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer

Message no. 69 Mongoose's recent rant about deckers/decker wannabes made me think. FASA
put out Rigger 2 because riggers were kind of getting a backseat to the
action. (so to speak :) So when is FASA gonna come out with Decker 2?
(or would it be Decker 3?) The only PC deckers I see around in most
games are <insert other archetype>/decker characters. Like Bull, for
example, is a rigger/decker. (Though I think he is primarily a decker.)

In my games, the other players consider deckers to be the most useless
characters in the game ... pardon me, but, WTF?

Part of this (though not in my games) is because of Rigger 2 and the
Corporate Security Handbook, IMO. The introduction of security riggers
took an important role of deckers away and gave it to riggers. I have
one decker char that I can never use in my games because when someone
else GMs (there are three GMs: me, and two friends), there isn't anything
matrixy built into the run and if I try to go along the run "in the
flesh" (which I'll need to do if I want the char to earn karma and
advance), he'll get killed ... FAST. (In the run I ran, the decker could
have mucked with building security. In co-GM-a's run we had to hunt down
a gang of Vamps in the sewer. In co-GM-b's run we have to snag a
suitcase from a funeral procession. We've only been on 2 runs from the
other GMs, so maybe there'll be a chance to use the char but I doubt it
since one of the co-GMs said deckers were the most useless chars in
Shadowrun.)

Sorry for going on like this but I think deckers get stereotyped too
easily as being only useful when you want to get data out of a computer.
For example, Mongoose's rant was in response to Bull saying he was going
to screw Mr. White over. Mongoose made a comment about something like
"Oh no. Not a bad credit rating. Anything but that." (I'm not picking
on Mongoose but he just gave me something to work with :) There are all
sorts of nasty stuff Deckers can do depending on how Pissed off they are
... From adding a few Hundred unpaid parking tickets to your record to
swapping your info with someone on the FBI's Most Wanted list. (Both
taken from the movie "Hackers") What about adding a history of child
molestation to a character's record and then anonymously tipping off some
concerned parents in the neighborhood (and the Media for good measure)
and you can royally screw that person over. (Anything from getting
forced out of the neighborhood to getting beaten up depending on how good
a neighborhood the target lives in. [Hmmm since this sprouted from Bull's
revenge on Mr. White, I wonder what kind of response the Mafia would have
if this suddenly happened to him?])

I'd better quit ranting now :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 70 >So when is FASA gonna come out with Decker 2?
>(or would it be Decker 3?)

Decker 2 is more properly known as VIRTUAL REALITIES 2.0, which has been
out for some time.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Message no. 71 On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:21:08 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
>>So when is FASA gonna come out with Decker 2?
>>(or would it be Decker 3?)

>Decker 2 is more properly known as VIRTUAL REALITIES 2.0, which has been
>out for some time.
>
>---
>(>) Texas 2-Step
<SNIP Sig>

Notice the bit about "or would it be Decker 3"? I have VR2 and it
doesn't do the same thing for deckers that Rigger 2 does for riggers.
Namely, expand on their current roles. (both clarified their roles and
revised the rules though) So the question still stands.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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Message no. 72 At 05:08 PM 8/19/98 -0500, you wrote:

>In my games, the other players consider deckers to be the most useless
>characters in the game ... pardon me, but, WTF?

Why? Because it's something that generally bores the other players to
tears while you run the one-on-one session with the decker PC.

Deckers should be some of the most powerful players in Shadowrun, because
data/information is worth power and nuyen. But decker PCs are easily the
most difficult to integrate into the team concept. That's why I simply
don't allow deckers in my game; I'm trying to keep a team, I'm trying to
keep everyone involved as much as possible.

I also agree whole-heartedly with Mongoose. So what if you give a SIN-less
PC a bad credit rating. He doesn't have any credit! Hundreds of tickets?
No SIN to append them to! Get into the FBI's mainframe and swap data? Go
for it d00d, you're likely to get brain fried.

Now if we were talking about normal citizens, that's one thing. But if we
are talking about SINless Shadowrunners, whichever PC has the most contacts
can probably do the best job trashing someone else's rep, not who has the
hottest deck.

Erik J.

Who's done quite a lot of ranting today...though the BP hasn't climbed too
high...

Message no. 73 Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> Mongoose's recent rant about deckers/decker wannabes made me think. FASA
> put out Rigger 2 because riggers were kind of getting a backseat to the
> action. (so to speak :) So when is FASA gonna come out with Decker 2?
> (or would it be Decker 3?) The only PC deckers I see around in most
> games are <insert other archetype>/decker characters. Like Bull, for
> example, is a rigger/decker. (Though I think he is primarily a decker.)
>
> In my games, the other players consider deckers to be the most useless
> characters in the game ... pardon me, but, WTF?
>
> Part of this (though not in my games) is because of Rigger 2 and the
> Corporate Security Handbook, IMO. The introduction of security riggers
> took an important role of deckers away and gave it to riggers. I have
> one decker char that I can never use in my games because when someone
> else GMs (there are three GMs: me, and two friends), there isn't anything
> matrixy built into the run and if I try to go along the run "in the
> flesh" (which I'll need to do if I want the char to earn karma and
> advance), he'll get killed ... FAST. (In the run I ran, the decker could
> have mucked with building security. In co-GM-a's run we had to hunt down
> a gang of Vamps in the sewer. In co-GM-b's run we have to snag a
> suitcase from a funeral procession. We've only been on 2 runs from the
> other GMs, so maybe there'll be a chance to use the char but I doubt it
> since one of the co-GMs said deckers were the most useless chars in
> Shadowrun.)
>

i have the same problem in my campaigns....mainly because the decker
ends up doing things alone, sort of (well, before vr2), while the rest
of the players are hanging out waiting for the matrix run to be over
(ever play, for example, adnd, and 1 character decides to strike out on
his own? you have to roleplay him while everybody else hangs out, and
vice versa)...

what i ended up having to do, is role play the matrix run on the side,
just me and that character, in between regular sessions....then when the
session does come up, we just coordinate what 'happened' in the matrix
already, to the outside world......

> D. Ghost
> (aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
> o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`
>
> _______
--
Lance Dillon
Network Administrator
Nielsen Media Research
--
The moon is a planet just like the Earth, only it is even deader.

Message no. 74 At 05:08 PM 8/19/98 -0500, Alfredo B Alves wrote these timeless words:
>Mongoose's recent rant about deckers/decker wannabes made me think. FASA
>put out Rigger 2 because riggers were kind of getting a backseat to the
>action. (so to speak :) So when is FASA gonna come out with Decker 2?
>(or would it be Decker 3?) The only PC deckers I see around in most
>games are <insert other archetype>/decker characters. Like Bull, for
>example, is a rigger/decker. (Though I think he is primarily a decker.)
>
Actually, Bull's technically a Combat Decker... Well... He wasn;t much
good at either when he started, but... :]

The rigging thing came much later, when we decided to start playing around
with other rules...

But i know what you mean... Playing just a straight decker can be rough,
and a bit boring since FASA really hasn;t supported them all that much,
besides some basic rules... ANd they're also the "Class" voted "Most
likely to be banned from a game".

I'd truly love to see something to expand the Decker and make it a more
viable character to play...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
=======================================================

"Can the Gummi Worms really live in peace with the Marshmallow Chicks?"
-- Pinky, "Pinky and the Brain"

Message no. 75 In a message dated 8/19/98 8:02:37 PM AST, chaos@*****.COM writes:

> But i know what you mean... Playing just a straight decker can be rough,
> and a bit boring since FASA really hasn;t supported them all that much,
> besides some basic rules... ANd they're also the "Class" voted "Most
> likely to be banned from a game".
>
> I'd truly love to see something to expand the Decker and make it a more
> viable character to play...
>

I don't allow deckers in my game simply because it is like running 2 games.

Message no. 76 On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:14:54 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>At 05:08 PM 8/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>In my games, the other players consider deckers to be the most useless
>>characters in the game ... pardon me, but, WTF?

>Why? Because it's something that generally bores the other players to
>tears while you run the one-on-one session with the decker PC.

Not neccisarily. One of the valuable roles a decker can perform is to
muck with building security during a run. So you do the matrix run
alongside the "realworld" run.

>Deckers should be some of the most powerful players in Shadowrun,
because
>data/information is worth power and nuyen. But decker PCs are easily
the
>most difficult to integrate into the team concept. That's why I simply
>don't allow deckers in my game; I'm trying to keep a team, I'm trying to
>keep everyone involved as much as possible.

If you can't integerate deckers into the team as a GM dodn't blame it on
the deckers. There are some people who can. I for one, would like to
have the chance to find out if I am one.

>I also agree whole-heartedly with Mongoose. So what if you give a
SIN-less
>PC a bad credit rating. He doesn't have any credit!

Not all SIN-less don't have SINs. Sound like a contradiction? You NEED
a SIN for somethings and so your runner either goes without or must get a
fake SIN. A decker can attack that fake SIN. (and who does the runner
go to GET the SIN? ... well, probably a fixer but the fixer gets it from
a decker.)

>Hundreds of tickets?
>No SIN to append them to!

Either the plates on the car are registered to a fake SIN or they are
stolen. If the plates are stolen, then it may be reported as such and
the runner may eventually wind up pulled over for driving a stolen
vehicle. Either way, the Decker can tack tickets onto the SIN the plate
is registered to. In which case, you still have problems.

>Get into the FBI's mainframe and swap data? Go
>for it d00d, you're likely to get brain fried.

Maybe. Maybe not. If some decker wannabe tries it, s/he's toast. If a
skilled decker backed by the right gear tries it, that's a different
story. You seem to use any-twit-with-a-deck interchangably with a
skilled decker. It weakens your argument.

>Now if we were talking about normal citizens, that's one thing. But if
we
>are talking about SINless Shadowrunners, whichever PC has the most
contacts
>can probably do the best job trashing someone else's rep, not who has
the
>hottest deck.
>
>Erik J.
<SNIP>

If you're looking to trash the person's professional reputation, then
many contacts are useful. If you're looking to make life hell,
being/knowing a skilled and properly equiped decker is very valuable. It
basicly comes down to "there's more than one way to skin a cat" A
SINless person has -SOME- degree of protection from a decker but unless
his/her life is trashed anyway s/he is NOT immune. Every character type
probably has SOME way to screw you over. The decker is almost unique in
that the decker can screw you over in a more long-term manner. (Compare
mucking with your records to beating you up.)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 77 In a message dated 8/19/98 3:15:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dghost@****.COM
writes:

> FASA
> put out Rigger 2 because riggers were kind of getting a backseat to the
> action. (so to speak :) So when is FASA gonna come out with Decker 2?
> (or would it be Decker 3?) The only PC deckers I see around in most
> games are <insert other archetype>/decker characters.
This is the one problem I got. If a man is a rigger, but can still fight out
of a car, he is still a rigger. If a mage can fight between spells, he is
still just a mage. If a decker is good with a gun, he becomes a "combat-
decker" or "Street Sam-decker".
If a man is concentrated as Decker to the point where he cannot function in
a run, than he should stay home. Many deckers can hold their own, without a
deck. The troll I had in first Edition carried program carriers and was useful
as a moderate decker.
VR2.0 did streamline the rules to make it quicker and easier to run a small
matrix run during another game.

Message no. 78 Michael vanHulst wrote:
> > The only PC deckers I see around in most
> > games are <insert other archetype>/decker characters.
> This is the one problem I got. If a man is a rigger, but can still fight out
> of a car, he is still a rigger. If a mage can fight between spells, he is
> still just a mage. If a decker is good with a gun, he becomes a "combat-
> decker" or "Street Sam-decker".

While you do make a good point, there are "Combat Mages" and "Combat
Riggers", these are those professionals who direct their abilities
more directly into combat than others of their respective fields.

> If a man is concentrated as Decker to the point where he cannot function in
> a run, than he should stay home.

And there are deckers who do stay at home and do all of their running
through the deck, just like Jane-in-the-Box did.

--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from
magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------

Message no. 79 In a message dated 8/19/98 6:26:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
iridios@*********.COM writes:

> While you do make a good point, there are "Combat Mages" and "Combat
> Riggers", these are those professionals who direct their abilities
> more directly into combat than others of their respective fields.
Sure, I agree with the distinction that a combat mage or combat rigger is just
one that uses his rigging or magic skills in a combat orientation. So, a
combat decker, would just (IMO) be a decker with a lot of attack programs or
otherwise offensive inside the "decking stuff"

Message no. 80 >I also agree whole-heartedly with Mongoose. So what if you give a
>SIN-less PC a bad credit rating. He doesn't have any credit!

Actually, he's probably got hoards of credit. Unless he's carrying hard
currency or a certified stick, all the nuyen he's getting is on a credstick
that has to, at some point, connect with a real bank of some sort to verify
the balance (at least if I understood the discussion of it in NAGRL
correctly, which is admittedly not guaranteed in any way). And whether the
SIN in question is a real one or not, to access that account the runner in
question is gonna have a SIN of some sort. And a ticked-off decker is not a
good thing to have in those sorts of circumstances. All that ill-gotten
cred could be siphoned off into someone else's account, or just vanish. If
the runner has a lifestyle somewhere above squatter, there's a SIN (fake or
not) attached to the apartment. A decker would probably find it child's
play to create an eviction notice, or worse.

While deckers aren't some sort of ubermensch in my cosmology, I think you're
cutting them short shrift here. Especially when it comes to making a Mafia
don miserable, since they all likely have SINs, seeing as how they're always
trying to look like legit businessmen.

>Hundreds of tickets? No SIN to append them to!

No, but if a car that the runner routinely drove suddenly developed a
registration in the name of someone else, and a Grand Theft Auto report
suddenly found its way into the system at the Star...and Knight Errant...and
any of a dozen other law-enforcement contractors, it could get a little
unpleasant for the runner in question.

Deckers could also create a SIN for the target runner, complete with an
exceptionally detailed dossier and recent set of photos, and then create a
rap sheet a block long to attach to that dossier. In the process, the
decker might mention that there's a bounty of 1,000,000 nuyen on the runners
head, and that he's wanted in CAS, Tir Tairngire, Aztlan, Great Britain, and
Tir na Nog. Might be true, might be false, but it wouldn't be difficult to
do. And dropping all that info into the computers of every law-enforcement
contractor in the world, as well as into the Shadowland BBS that cater to
bounty hunters, would be a fairly easy thing to do, too. A little harder if
the decker really covers his tracks, but still not too hard for a good one.

Combined with the situation mentioned above concerning the runner's money,
it could create the fairly amusing situation of a (formerly) wealthy runner
paying his own bounty....

>Now if we were talking about normal citizens, that's one thing. But if we
>are talking about SINless Shadowrunners, whichever PC has the most contacts
>can probably do the best job trashing someone else's rep, not who has the
>hottest deck.

Who's trying to ruin the guy's rep? I think it would be comparatively easy
to ruin the guy's whole life with a little effort and determination.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Message no. 81 >> FASA
>> put out Rigger 2 because riggers were kind of getting a backseat to the
>> action. (so to speak :) So when is FASA gonna come out with Decker 2?
>> (or would it be Decker 3?) The only PC deckers I see around in most
>> games are <insert other archetype>/decker characters.
>
>This is the one problem I got. If a man is a rigger, but can still fight out
>of a car, he is still a rigger. If a mage can fight between spells, he is
>still just a mage. If a decker is good with a gun, he becomes a "combat-
>decker" or "Street Sam-decker".

Surely a rigger who can 'still fight out of a car' is a 'combat-rigger' or
a 'street sam-rigger' then?

Lady Jestyr

- Eagles may soar, but turkeys don't get sucked into jet engines. -
jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr

Message no. 82 >> If a man is concentrated as Decker to the point where he cannot
>> function in a run, than he should stay home.
>
>And there are deckers who do stay at home and do all of their running
>through the deck, just like Jane-in-the-Box did.

Didn't Laughing Man make a similar point to Ambrose in VR2, citing a
(legendary, or nearly so) decker called Jerusalem? (I know Laughing Man is
Harlequin; who's Ambrose, and why does he feel guilty about leaving a child
in someone else's care?)

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Message no. 83 In a message dated 8/19/98 6:26:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
iridios@*********.COM writes:

> > If a man is concentrated as Decker to the point where he cannot function
> in
> > a run, than he should stay home.
>
> And there are deckers who do stay at home and do all of their running
> through the deck, just like Jane-in-the-Box did.
I ran one just like this as an NPC for my last group, they never met the guy
as anything less than an icon on the screen.

Message no. 84 On 8/19/98 Michael vanHulst wrote:

> In a message dated 8/19/98 6:26:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> iridios@*********.COM writes:
>
> > While you do make a good point, there are "Combat Mages" and
"Combat
> > Riggers", these are those professionals who direct their abilities
> > more directly into combat than others of their respective fields.
>
> Sure, I agree with the distinction that a combat mage or combat rigger is
>just
> one that uses his rigging or magic skills in a combat orientation. So, a
> combat decker, would just (IMO) be a decker with a lot of attack programs or
> otherwise offensive inside the "decking stuff"

Not necessarily. The best matrix security in the world is to have your
computer off the matrix. In these cases, the decker may need to fight his way
to the machine before he can access the files inside. I have been playing a
combat decker for years and have seen it as a decker who can hold his own
outside of the matrix as well as inside.

Another level of the decker could be the "social engineering" side. Why stick
to fighting through multiple layers of ice when a phone call to a gabby
receptionist could get you the access that much quicker? There is also my
favorite gambit of setting myself up as a newly hired janitor and spending
some nights sweeping floors and going through the targets office. It's amazing
what Mr. Johnson throws away.

The only limitation on a decker is the person playing it. I am currently
running a game and totally understand the pitfalls of GMing a decker, but to
cut the all deckers out of the game would be loosing a vital part of
Shadowrun. Without deckers, SR turns into D&D with guns.

------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Blackbrain | I can't tell if I'm a
Blackbrain@*********.com | cypherpunk or a
PGPKey available at | cryptofascist.
http://www.Mahagonny.com/pgp |
------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 85 >Deckers could also create a SIN for the target runner, complete with an
>exceptionally detailed dossier and recent set of photos, and then create a
>rap sheet a block long to attach to that dossier. In the process, the
>decker might mention that there's a bounty of 1,000,000 nuyen on the runners
>head, and that he's wanted in CAS, Tir Tairngire, Aztlan, Great Britain, and
>Tir na Nog. Might be true, might be false, but it wouldn't be difficult to
>do. And dropping all that info into the computers of every law-enforcement
>contractor in the world, as well as into the Shadowland BBS that cater to
>bounty hunters, would be a fairly easy thing to do, too. A little harder if
>the decker really covers his tracks, but still not too hard for a good one.

I disagree. It specifically says in any number of sourcebooks that it
requires whole shadowy organizations to create false IDs. Even a basic SIN
validator checks background information in any one of a dozen computer
systems. I don't think "dropping all that info into the computers of every
law-enforcement contractor in the world" would be a trivial task ... it
would likely get them brain fried. Information is a law enforcement
agencies stock in trade, read the Lone Star sourcebook. They will protect
this stock in trade thoroughly, probably by keeping it off the matrix where
scum-sucking shadowrunners might access it. Do you want to do a run on Lone
Star's HQ? Knight Errants? Hard Corps? The New York Metropolitan Police,
Inc?

Bounties and such would be easy to verify. Do you think a bounty hunter is
going to work for a 1,000,000 nuyen bounty that won't be paid? No, he's
going to check and double check with the organization, and wonder why that
large a bounty didn't show up via his usual means, or why his fixer doesn't
know anything about it.

The more detailed the dossier, the more information that needs to be
emplaced within the records of other groups. Did the target go to school?
Better put those fake records in the university. Did he have a job? Ditto.
Was he arrested before? And so on and so forth ...

>Who's trying to ruin the guy's rep? I think it would be comparatively easy
>to ruin the guy's whole life with a little effort and determination.

It would be easy to harass him, such as cancel his lease, and do things
that don't require serious hacking. But to really ruin someone's life on
the matrix would require serious dedication. And forget trying to create a
fake ID by yourself.

>(>) Texas 2-Step
> El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 86 Adam Getchell wrote:
> >Deckers could also create a SIN for the target runner, complete with an
> >exceptionally detailed dossier and recent set of photos, and then create
> a
> >rap sheet a block long to attach to that dossier. In the process, the
[snip]
> I disagree. It specifically says in any number of sourcebooks that it
> requires whole shadowy organizations to create false IDs. Even a basic SIN
>
I don't think so - I recall SR3 saying that whole organizations exist
to create false SINs, and I recall NAGRL? saying that it takes a
talented decker a significant amount of time to build up a false SIN.
Thus, you could have somebody talented work for you for a good length of
time, or get an organization to slap together something more quickly...

James Ojaste

Message no. 87 >I don't think so - I recall SR3 saying that whole organizations exist
>to create false SINs, and I recall NAGRL? saying that it takes a
>talented decker a significant amount of time to build up a false SIN.
>Thus, you could have somebody talented work for you for a good length of
>time, or get an organization to slap together something more quickly...

Well if that's the case (and I don't have my SR3 with me to check) I would
think that SR3 overrides NAGRL, especially as that's what the conversion
rules in the back of SR3 say. It makes more sense, anyways ...

>James Ojaste

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 88 Adam Getchell wrote:
> >I don't think so - I recall SR3 saying that whole organizations exist
> >to create false SINs, and I recall NAGRL? saying that it takes a
> >talented decker a significant amount of time to build up a false SIN.
> >Thus, you could have somebody talented work for you for a good length of
> >time, or get an organization to slap together something more quickly...
>
> Well if that's the case (and I don't have my SR3 with me to check) I would
> think that SR3 overrides NAGRL, especially as that's what the conversion
> rules in the back of SR3 say. It makes more sense, anyways ...
>
But it's not in conflict. SR3 says that whole organizations exist to
create false SINs, not that whole organizations are *required* to do
so.

James Ojaste

Message no. 89 On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:31:12 -0400 "Ojaste,James [NCR]"
<James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> writes:
>Adam Getchell wrote:
>> >Deckers could also create a SIN for the target runner, complete with
an
>> >exceptionally detailed dossier and recent set of photos, and then
create a
>> >rap sheet a block long to attach to that dossier. In the process,
the
>[snip]

>> I disagree. It specifically says in any number of sourcebooks that it
>> requires whole shadowy organizations to create false IDs. Even a basic
SIN

>I don't think so - I recall SR3 saying that whole organizations exist
>to create false SINs, and I recall NAGRL? saying that it takes a
>talented decker a significant amount of time to build up a false SIN.
>Thus, you could have somebody talented work for you for a good length of
>time, or get an organization to slap together something more
>quickly...
>
>James Ojaste

I think it was the Underworld SB that said you needed an orginization to
create a false SIN ... *flips through SB* Yup ... page 12-13 under
Counterfeiting and Forgery. It says your really good lone wolf hacker
will get you the goods to /maybe/ fool a level 3 checker ... now, someone
like `Star or Knight Errant probably uses around rating 10 or so checkers
... You need a syndicate's help for that kind of stuff ... However ... In
*THEORY* it is possible for a lone hacker to set-up that good of a fake
SIN background but in practice it is not (meta)humanly possible, IMO. :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 90 Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> >> I disagree. It specifically says in any number of sourcebooks that it
> >> requires whole shadowy organizations to create false IDs. Even a basic
> SIN
>
> >I don't think so - I recall SR3 saying that whole organizations exist
> >to create false SINs, and I recall NAGRL? saying that it takes a
> >talented decker a significant amount of time to build up a false SIN.
[snip]
> I think it was the Underworld SB that said you needed an orginization to
> create a false SIN ... *flips through SB* Yup ... page 12-13 under
> Counterfeiting and Forgery. It says your really good lone wolf hacker
> will get you the goods to /maybe/ fool a level 3 checker ... now, someone
> like `Star or Knight Errant probably uses around rating 10 or so checkers
>
OK. I guess I'd better get Underworld then...

> ... You need a syndicate's help for that kind of stuff ... However ... In
> *THEORY* it is possible for a lone hacker to set-up that good of a fake
> SIN background but in practice it is not (meta)humanly possible, IMO. :)
>
Sure it is - it's just drudgery. It's not a pleasant job (nor an easy
one, necessarily), but there *is* a lot of stuff to do.

James Ojaste

Message no. 91 Erik Jameson wrote:
> I also agree whole-heartedly with Mongoose. So what if you give a SIN-less
> PC a bad credit rating. He doesn't have any credit! Hundreds of tickets?
> No SIN to append them to! Get into the FBI's mainframe and swap data? Go
> for it d00d, you're likely to get brain fried.

> Now if we were talking about normal citizens, that's one thing. But if we
> are talking about SINless Shadowrunners, whichever PC has the most contacts
> can probably do the best job trashing someone else's rep, not who has the
> hottest deck.
>

But then, suddenly, a file with very juicy information on a runner is
e-mailed to a corp that wss repeatedly screwed over by him... Next thing
you know, there's no more runner :) .

Bira

Message no. 92 At 01:43 PM 8/20/98 -0300, you wrote:

> But then, suddenly, a file with very juicy information on a runner is
>e-mailed to a corp that wss repeatedly screwed over by him... Next thing
>you know, there's no more runner :) .

Which can be done by any PC with a computer.

Erik J.

Message no. 93 At 02:15 -0000 8/20/98, Bill Blackbrain wrote:>
>Another level of the decker could be the "social engineering" side. Why
stick
>to fighting through multiple layers of ice when a phone call to a gabby
>receptionist could get you the access that much quicker? There is also my
>favorite gambit of setting myself up as a newly hired janitor and spending
>some nights sweeping floors and going through the targets office. It's amazing
>what Mr. Johnson throws away.
>

Social engineering was part of what made Kevin Mitnick so scary.
He didn't just understand protocols, security measures, loopholes,
etc... He knew how information systems worked, understood built
in assumptions, and also knew to pose questions or requests to
people on the inside in the proper context so as to not set off
warning signs. I think that would be tough to implement in a
Shadowrun game, as finding a player and GM with the panache
and know how to run both sides of the system and interact with
each other at that level is going to be difficult.

As for deckers in SR in general, I view them as a critical component
to the SR universe. Currently, they are not allowed as PCs in my
game simply because matrix generation is something I have no
desire to do. Even the on-the-fly generation methods is time
consuming and detail oriented. I liked the VR 2.0 rules a lot -
they were much more in line with reality, but it's a whole
'nother "Astral Space" where the rest of the team that is not
involved sits on their ass and waits for the mages to
come back to their meat. So I've opted not to run PC deckers
for now, and I also removed astral projection from my game
as well (for several other additional reasons).

-Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Nesius | Forget that polygon/second crap. Angband beats all
nesius@******.com | "next-gen" games, and does so w/ ASCII characters.

Message no. 94 Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> I think it was the Underworld SB that said you needed an orginization to
> create a false SIN ... *flips through SB* Yup ... page 12-13 under
> Counterfeiting and Forgery. It says your really good lone wolf hacker
> will get you the goods to /maybe/ fool a level 3 checker ... now, someone
> like `Star or Knight Errant probably uses around rating 10 or so checkers
> ... You need a syndicate's help for that kind of stuff ... However ... In
> *THEORY* it is possible for a lone hacker to set-up that good of a fake
> SIN background but in practice it is not (meta)humanly possible, IMO. :)
>

And who bands togheter to form those organizations... Mostly deckers.
:)

Bira

Message no. 95 ->Alfredo B Alves wrote:
->>
->> I think it was the Underworld SB that said you needed an orginization to
->> create a false SIN ... *flips through SB* Yup ... page 12-13 under
->> Counterfeiting and Forgery. It says your really good lone wolf hacker
->> will get you the goods to /maybe/ fool a level 3 checker ... now, someone
->> like `Star or Knight Errant probably uses around rating 10 or so checkers
->> ... You need a syndicate's help for that kind of stuff ... However ... In
->> *THEORY* it is possible for a lone hacker to set-up that good of a fake
->> SIN background but in practice it is not (meta)humanly possible, IMO. :)

Neo-A Guide to Real Life: Rating 1 verification is used for
purchases of <5,000 Nuyen. Rating 2-3 verification for purchases <20,000
Nuyen & used by "security and law enforcement vehicles" for
"on-the-spot
ID verification". Rating 4-5 verification for purchases < 200,000 Nuyen &
used by "corporate and private security and law enforcement offices".
Rating 6-7 verification for purchases greater than 200,000 Nuyen & used by
"elite corporate and private security firms, corporate 'information'
agencies and governmental law enforcement and intelligence agencies".
Rating 8-9 systems usually verify transactions in the 1 million Nuyen
range and are used in only the "highest reaches of megacorporate and
governmental pyramids". Rating 10 systems, according to the book, can
only exist in theory or rumor.
Please tell me you're not equipping each Lone Star cruiser with a
rating 10 ID checker... ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

Message no. 96 On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:21:36 -0400 David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
writes:
>->Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>->> I think it was the Underworld SB that said you needed an
orginization to
>->> create a false SIN ... *flips through SB* Yup ... page 12-13 under
>->> Counterfeiting and Forgery. It says your really good lone wolf
hacker
>->> will get you the goods to /maybe/ fool a level 3 checker ... now,
someone
>->> like `Star or Knight Errant probably uses around rating 10 or so
checkers
>->> ... You need a syndicate's help for that kind of stuff ... However
... In
>->> *THEORY* it is possible for a lone hacker to set-up that good of a
fake
>->> SIN background but in practice it is not (meta)humanly possible,
IMO. :)

<SNIP ID checker rundown from Neo-A>
> Please tell me you're not equipping each Lone Star cruiser with
a
>rating 10 ID checker... ]:-)
>
>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
<SNIP Sig>

Nope :P I was going off of the spirit of the Underworld SB and in
hindsight, I should have said 7-9+, and that's for the precinct house.
Why such a high rating? The precinct checkers do EVERYTHING, DNA,
Fingerprints, te works! (Unless, I have reason to believe a character's
SIN wouldn't have that info on file, I have no problem letting the
precinct checker operate at Rating 10+.) The cruisers, IMO/In my games,
would R3 for a quick check, but could transmit the info to the precinct
to do a check if the officer in the cruiser wants to wait for a more in
depth (R6-7) bg check. (IMO, the check at the precinct is normally done
while you are in a holding cell. Something like a quick R3/4 while
you're being checked in followed by a R7-9+ while you're waiting for the
bail hearing [the bail hearing won't commence until you're bg check has
come back].)

Does that sound better?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 97 Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> At 01:43 PM 8/20/98 -0300, you wrote:
>
> > But then, suddenly, a file with very juicy information on a runner is
> >e-mailed to a corp that wss repeatedly screwed over by him... Next thing
> >you know, there's no more runner :) .
>
> Which can be done by any PC with a computer.
>
> Erik J.

But only a decker knows how not to become a target doing this...

Bira

Message no. 98 >> At 01:43 PM 8/20/98 -0300, you wrote:
>>
>> > But then, suddenly, a file with very juicy information on a runner is
>> >e-mailed to a corp that wss repeatedly screwed over by him... Next thing
>> >you know, there's no more runner :) .
>>
>> Which can be done by any PC with a computer.
>>
>> Erik J.
>
>
> But only a decker knows how not to become a target doing this...
>
> Bira
>

Who needs "email"? Phone a courrier from a public phone and have them
pick up a package (of chips) from a double blind maildrop? Hm, and I know how
to do that today. That's a matter of contacts and knowledge skills, not
having a fancy dancer deck. Remember, your not a target until AFTER the info
is delivered, at which point you are LONG gone.

Mongoose

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I do NOT intend to start a war here, all i am saying is that in my campaigns
generally deckers dont count.
I find that they can or cant be done well by playing in other peoples
campaigns. I also
A) acknowledge that deckers can be worthhile in the right circumstances
B) acknowledge that in some circumstances they cant
so honestly here, middle of the Haunted Forest in Madagasgar
merc team hired my masakuru (Annuver greater dragon)
If the (mediocre) decker was able to even get an uplink he would die
instantly from the black ice (or go 3 ways crazy from psykotropic)
So in my game they arent worth a nuyen a dozen
Most of my PC's btw wanna play exotic characters
So my runs/campaigns become xtremely interesting

Ansarok "Those who live by the Monosword, die by the Monosword"

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Are there any books that give more detailed rules for deckers other than
the main rule book?

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Are there any books that give more detailed rules for <span
class=SpellE>deckers</span> other than the main rule
book?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

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Message no. 101 > Are there any books that give more detailed rules for deckers other than
the main rule book?

Target: Matrix has information about The Matrix and the Decker community,
and the book Matrix is basicly

VR 3.0 (in other words, it's the Decker sourcebook.)

EMFA John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
"Don't put off tomorrow what you can do today, because it's just a matter of
time."

Message no. 102 --- Derek Hyde <dhyde@*********.net> wrote:
> Are there any books that give more detailed rules
> for deckers other than
> the main rule book?

Matrix is a must. Target: Matrix is also highly
recommended. I would suggest the original Virtual
Realities from the first edition if you can find it,
not for the rules but for the awesome story told from
a decker's point of view.

Pete
player, GM, and general SR addict

_______________________________________________________
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Message no. 103 > > Are there any books that give more detailed rules for deckers other
> than
> the main rule book?
>
>
>
> Target: Matrix has information about The Matrix and the Decker
community,
> and the book Matrix is basicly
>
> VR 3.0 (in other words, it's the Decker sourcebook.)
not at all what I'm looking for, I've got it, read it, and I'm looking
for more detailed rules....not just BS on what you can find on the
matrix

Message no. 104 Derek Hyde wrote:
>
> > > Are there any books that give more detailed rules for deckers other
> > than
> > the main rule book?
> >
> >
> >
> > Target: Matrix has information about The Matrix and the Decker
> community,
> > and the book Matrix is basicly
> >
> > VR 3.0 (in other words, it's the Decker sourcebook.)
> not at all what I'm looking for, I've got it, read it, and I'm looking
> for more detailed rules....not just BS on what you can find on the
> matrix

There are two books mentioned above, "Target: Matrix" and "Matrix".
The
second one, "Matrix", is a book of more detailed rules. It is the
Decker sourcebook, just like Rigger 3 is the Rigger sourcebook.

--
Iridios
--
From:The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord
(http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

Once my power is secure, I will destroy all those pesky
time-travel devices.

Used Without Permission

Message no. 105 > There are two books mentioned above, "Target: Matrix" and
"Matrix".
The
> second one, "Matrix", is a book of more detailed rules. It is the
> Decker sourcebook, just like Rigger 3 is the Rigger sourcebook.

Ok now it's time for me to ask this one.....ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN GET
THE MATRIX BOOK? (not Target: Matrix but Matrix)

Message no. 106 From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>
>
> Ok now it's time for me to ask this one.....ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN GET
> THE MATRIX BOOK? (not Target: Matrix but Matrix)

Everywhere they sell Shadowrun rulebooks. My local gamestaror has several
copies, and it's one of the basic books that FanPro will continue to reprint.

Lars

Message no. 107 At 20:03 26/11/2001, Derek Hyde wrote:

>Are there any books that give more detailed rules for deckers other than
>the main rule book?

Matrix.

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/products/matrix.html

Adam
Official Shadowrun Page: www.shadowrunrpg.com | adam@************.com

Message no. 108 > Ok now it's time for me to ask this one.....ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN GET
> THE MATRIX BOOK? (not Target: Matrix but Matrix)

A local gaming store, eBay, online, etc. It's pretty new and still in
print, so you shouldn't have a problem.

And dude, you don't need to yell... we're all only two feet away from our
computer screens. :)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 109 > Ok now it's time for me to ask this one.....ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN
GET
> THE MATRIX BOOK? (not Target: Matrix but Matrix)
>
> A local gaming store, eBay, online, etc. It's pretty new and still
in
> print, so you shouldn't have a problem.
>
> And dude, you don't need to yell... we're all only two feet away
from
> our
> computer screens. :)

Oopsie....hit the caps lock button...lol. None of my gaming stores here
carry any SR stuff cause I'm the only person running a game in the area
:*(

Message no. 110 >Oopsie....hit the caps lock button...lol. None of my gaming stores here
>carry any SR stuff cause I'm the only person running a game in the area
>:*(

Try amazon.com

Lunatec

Message no. 111 At 11:07 29/11/2001, Derek Hyde wrote:

>Oopsie....hit the caps lock button...lol. None of my gaming stores here
>carry any SR stuff cause I'm the only person running a game in the area
>:*(

So say "Hey, can you order me in a copy of Matrix, for Shadowrun?"

Any gaming store that's half decent should be able to say "yes".

Adam
--
| Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com |
| adamj@*********.com | http://www.jillted.org | UIN: 2350330 |

Message no. 112 > At 11:07 29/11/2001, Derek Hyde wrote:
>
> >Oopsie....hit the caps lock button...lol. None of my gaming stores
here
> >carry any SR stuff cause I'm the only person running a game in the
area
> >:*(
>
> So say "Hey, can you order me in a copy of Matrix, for Shadowrun?"
>
> Any gaming store that's half decent should be able to say "yes".
>
> Adam
well here's a hint....they're sending all of the SR stuff that they do
have back to their distributors and are refusing any requests to order
anything.
That's how bad it is for gamers here.

Message no. 113 At 21:41 29/11/2001, Derek Hyde wrote:

>> So say "Hey, can you order me in a copy of Matrix, for Shadowrun?"
>>
>> Any gaming store that's half decent should be able to say "yes".

>well here's a hint....they're sending all of the SR stuff that they do
>have back to their distributors and are refusing any requests to order
>anything.
>That's how bad it is for gamers here.

So even if you specifically say "I want 1 copy of <this book>", they won't

order it for you? Not even if you put down a deposit? That's quite unusual
for a gaming store, since most of them usually work on such small margins
that they need every single sale they can squeak out.

Adam
--
| Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com |
| adamj@*********.com | http://www.jillted.org | UIN: 2350330 |

Message no. 114 At 21:41 29/11/2001, Derek Hyde wrote:

>>> So say "Hey, can you order me in a copy of Matrix, for Shadowrun?"
>>>
>>> Any gaming store that's half decent should be able to say "yes".

>>well here's a hint....they're sending all of the SR stuff that they do
>>have back to their distributors and are refusing any requests to order
>>anything.
>>That's how bad it is for gamers here.

>So even if you specifically say "I want 1 copy of <this book>", they
won't
>order it for you? Not even if you put down a deposit? That's quite unusual
>for a gaming store, since most of them usually work on such small margins
>that they need every single sale they can squeak out.

>Adam

...and I thought Shinders was bad...sheese

Lunatec

Message no. 115 >>well here's a hint....they're sending all of the SR stuff that they do
have back to their distributors and are refusing any requests to order
anything. That's how bad it is for gamers here.
>>

> So even if you specifically say "I want 1 copy of <this book>", they
won't order it for you? Not even if you put down a deposit? That's quite
unusual for a gaming store, since most of them usually work on such small
margins that they need every single sale they can squeak out.
> Adam

Even if you do have an anti-profit gaming store, Derek, there's plenty of
stores online that don't rely on your town's popluation of gamers, and so
may just be willing to sell you a copy of a book. There's also plenty of
schlubs on eBay if you don't mind gambling a little. Last but not least,
Anders, thinking I was you, offered to sell me a copy of Matrix, so you've
got folks on this list willing to give you books too.

Frankly, I find it real hard to believe you can't get ahold of a book
that's only two years old when I've managed to almost complete my SR
collection after only starting to collect in late 1998. Try harder, man! :\

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 116 > So even if you specifically say "I want 1 copy of <this book>", they
won't
> order it for you? Not even if you put down a deposit? That's quite
unusual
> for a gaming store, since most of them usually work on such small
margins
> that they need every single sale they can squeak out.
Yup....not even if I beg, plead, and pay for the book in advance,
they're selling insane amounts of magic, pokemon, warhammer 20K, and
comic books so they don't need to worry about a few little SR books

Message no. 117 >> So even if you specifically say "I want 1 copy of <this book>",
they
won't
>> order it for you? Not even if you put down a deposit? That's quite
unusual
>> for a gaming store, since most of them usually work on such small
margins
>> that they need every single sale they can squeak out.
>Yup....not even if I beg, plead, and pay for the book in advance,
>they're selling insane amounts of magic, pokemon, warhammer 20K, and
>comic books so they don't need to worry about a few little SR books

Ok...have you read ANY of my previous posts? I said that you can get the
matrix book via amazon.com....I just checked and they have it in stock.

Lunatec

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