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Message no. 1
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Degradation of skills and attributes, AKA use it or lose it
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:41:37 -0700
I like your idea of a chart for skills and attributes on a regular basis
(maybe once per month on skills and once a year on attribute). It runs into
one of my complaints for RPGs in general.

In the video game Dungeon Siege your character levels up in skills as he/she
uses it. I have found this idea very interesting for all RPGs. After all it
seems odd when a character is on some dungeon/jungle/wilderness crawl and
suddenly gains more skills in electronics. However, I have never been able
to develop a mechanical approach to this. Thus I have relied up Role-playing
for myself. For example if my character has been doing a lot of driving of
the getaway car, I try to give him/her another point in driver rather than
pistols B/R. I guess I'm trying to think of something like this in reverse.
For example my character has a 7 in Weightlifting, that's a pretty high
skill level and is accurate to his character (Think Incredible hulk with
tusks). I figure with that high of a skill level he has to read a lot of
muscle mags, watch trids about it, and hit the weights frequently.
I don't think I would ever make him drop below a 4 because a certain amount
of it is ingrained in him for the rest of his life. I'm just trying to
figure out how to drop his skills to match what he is doing. I may just have
to role-play it and talk it over with my GM. Just thought I'd see if there
was something in the book I missed or if someone had a useful house rule.
Message no. 2
From: rodrigo_berenguer@*****.ca (Pete)
Subject: Degradation of skills and attributes, AKA use it or lose it
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:53:28 -0500 (EST)
> After all it seems odd when a character is on some
> dungeon/jungle/wilderness crawl and suddenly gains
> more skills in electronics. However, I have never
> been able to develop a mechanical approach to this.

The way I address this is my game, as do the other GMs
I share it with, is to have people spend the karma
they get within 24 hours (real time, not game time).
Any unspent Karma becomes good Karma that can't go
toward skills or attributes. Karma can only be spent
on skills that were used at least once during the run
on which they where earned. And the max Karma that can
be allocated is no more than the skill or attribute
rating. The only exception to the above house rule is
when a character buys a new skill.

This may seem harsh, but most of the players in our
group thought that it was too easy and made no sense
for characters to gain prowess in skills that they
didn't use, and that it took to little time to do so.
Our solution addresses both issues. It may not fit
everyone's gaming style, but it does for us.

As for roll-playing v. role-playing (I think that was
Graht, my apologies if it wasn't): I hadn't thought of
that. Our group is really focused on the RPing, and
often see mechanics as an intrusion on the suspension
of disbelief. That's not to say we throw rules out the
window, far from it, we stick to the rules really
closely. However, with one glaring exception, no one
really looks at how to min/max stats and skills unless
it is really in character to be the best at one or two
things. I can see how my suggestion could be
subverted, but I trust the players I'm with not to.

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Message no. 3
From: renouf@********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Degradation of skills and attributes, AKA use it or lose it
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:28:54 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Mike Amos wrote:

> In the video game Dungeon Siege your character levels up in skills as he/she
> uses it. I have found this idea very interesting for all RPGs. After all it
> seems odd when a character is on some dungeon/jungle/wilderness crawl and
> suddenly gains more skills in electronics. However, I have never been able
> to develop a mechanical approach to this.

The solution I use for this problem is to a) enforce the "training
time" rules from the Shadowrun Companion, yet b) allow time spent actually
*doing* something to count as training for one's skill. So if a character
spends a lot of time programming or building electronics or driving
different types of vehicles or doing heavy lifting over the course of a
run, I let them to use that time towards satisfying the training time
requirements. Half the time, they have the training time for their skills
out of the way before they have the karma to actually raise the skill.
We've found this approach to be quick and easy, and it doesn't
involve any special karma. It ensures that time they spend using a
skill will benefit them when it comes time to raise that skill.

As for skill or attribute atrophy, I disagree with an approach
similar to the SOTA table for one simple reason: it's random. Sure, I
have no problem with a character's electronics or computer skill dropping
by a point due to technology advance - after all, being a hot-shot COBOL
programmer doesn't do you much good in a Java world. But this drop in
skill is due to outside factors (change in technology), not through disuse
or lack of upkeep.
Random upeekp just doesn't work. For example, consider a
character who sits on the couch for three months straight watching
educational TV. His muscles are atrophying, but he's learning lots of
knowledge skills. Then the GM rolls on a random table and it comes up
Intelligence loss. So suddenly, the character runs no risk of losing
Strength or Quickness from being a couch potato, yet has to pay for upkeep
on his Intelligence even though he's been exercising his brain all day.
Not good. I don't know what the solution to that particular
problem is off hand, but this is not it.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 4
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Degradation of skills and attributes, AKA use it or lose it
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:53:10 -0700
> From the little I have played of the Arcology shut down.

Well I was picked for this run for my lack of knowledge on the shutdown,
however, I suspect you are correct. I would be very surprised if this guy
lives long enough to experience muscle atrophy. I use this character to
illustrate a point that has bugged me for some time now. I'm one of those
annoying time who want heavy realism in play. But, I grow tired of
handicapping my own players with things like sprained muscles, charley
horses, fear, fatigue and thirst while all the other characters drive on
unfettered. So I'm always looking for mechanics to force cause other
characters to have to deal with these things.
I think there is something like stress points that can help with this, but
my impression is that this must be implemented by the GM. It's basically all
about me not being a very open minded player.

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