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Message no. 1
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Demolish or Recycle
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:08:34 -0500
At 01:32 PM 1/3/99 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:

<snip rationale for demolition>

>So, would a triple-A megacorp have the same ammount of red-tape
>mentality?
>
>What I'm getting at, is... Might we see at one point, Renraku, make
>the decision to stop throwing good money after bad, and just demolish
>the arcology from the outside?

Very possibly, although I kinda wonder if old Ineki would be willing to see
his baby go down without a fight. Could shake things up inside Renraku...

>This raises an interesting question: how would you go about
>demolishing a huge hardened building in the middle of downtown, from
>the outside, without damaging the surrounding area?

Most likely, given the defenses of the Arcology, precision-guided
high-kinetic-energy projectiles. That's the US Army's current tank-killing
weapon of choice. No messy explosives or chemicals, just a piece of shaped
metal or composite travelling at a few hundred meters a second. It'll blow
right through almost anything.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 2
From: Anders Swenson <anders@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Demolish or Recycle
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:10:44 -0800
Starjammer wrote:

> At 01:32 PM 1/3/99 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:
>
> <snip rationale for demolition>
>
> >So, would a triple-A megacorp have the same ammount of red-tape
> >mentality?
> >
> >What I'm getting at, is... Might we see at one point, Renraku, make
> >the decision to stop throwing good money after bad, and just demolish
> >the arcology from the outside?
>
> Very possibly, although I kinda wonder if old Ineki would be willing to see
> his baby go down without a fight. Could shake things up inside Renraku...
>
> >This raises an interesting question: how would you go about
> >demolishing a huge hardened building in the middle of downtown, from
> >the outside, without damaging the surrounding area?
>
> Most likely, given the defenses of the Arcology, precision-guided
> high-kinetic-energy projectiles. That's the US Army's current tank-killing
> weapon of choice. No messy explosives or chemicals, just a piece of shaped
> metal or composite travelling at a few hundred meters a second. It'll blow
> right through almost anything.
>

What about the Cermak Solution? Just have some runners sneak a large nuke as
centrally into the arcology as possible, and then detonate it? --Anders
(and please, no threads about fake time delay fuses)
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Demolish or Recycle
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:29:26 +0100
According to Starjammer, at 14:08 on 3 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> >This raises an interesting question: how would you go about
> >demolishing a huge hardened building in the middle of downtown, from
> >the outside, without damaging the surrounding area?
>
> Most likely, given the defenses of the Arcology, precision-guided
> high-kinetic-energy projectiles. That's the US Army's current tank-killing
> weapon of choice. No messy explosives or chemicals, just a piece of shaped
> metal or composite travelling at a few hundred meters a second.

More like 1500 m/s (and even higher near the muzzle).

> It'll blow right through almost anything.

Yes, and that makes it a bit unsuitable to destroy something like a
building with. You shoot a hole in one wall, and then it flies out through
the wall on the other side -- the armor-piercing capacity of modern tank
ammo is astounding, and reinforced concrete doesn't stop projectiles all
that well in the first place (HMG rounds can shoot through a concrete
house wall, for example. Think about what a 45 mm, 7 kg projectile at 1500
m/s will go through...)

The ways I can see to destroy a building are to either tear it down or
blow it up. Tearing it down would most likely mean going at it with one of
those huge metal balls on the end of a crane (or with a sledgehammer :)
but that takes ages, and isn't very practical for destroying a building
quickly...

As for blowing it up, you have two choices: either use a lot of explosives
so you destroy all the supporting walls and pillars with one blow, or
carefully place small amounts of explosives timed to go off at exactly the
right times. The latter takes months of preparation, so it's not something
shadowrunners can do, but it will take down the building without damaging
nearby property. OTOH one huge explosive takes little time and doesn't
need to be carefully placed (see the Beirut US embassy bombing in 1983 --
2000 kg of explosives in a truck, IIRC detonated outside the building,
caused the whole thing to collapse) but it's VERY messy.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Demolish or Recycle
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:25:41 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Starjammer wrote:
/
/ At 01:32 PM 1/3/99 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:
/
/ <snip rationale for demolition>
/
/ >So, would a triple-A megacorp have the same ammount of red-tape
/ >mentality?
/ >
/ >What I'm getting at, is... Might we see at one point, Renraku, make
/ >the decision to stop throwing good money after bad, and just demolish
/ >the arcology from the outside?
/
/ Very possibly, although I kinda wonder if old Ineki would be willing to see
/ his baby go down without a fight. Could shake things up inside Renraku...

Which is a ready made shadowrun. Those that want to demolish the
arcology can't beat Ineki politically, so they hire the shadowrunners
to do the job.

/ >This raises an interesting question: how would you go about
/ >demolishing a huge hardened building in the middle of downtown, from
/ >the outside, without damaging the surrounding area?

Fire, Water, Earth and Air Elementals.

Arson. Use a couple HE rounds to shatter windows, then lob napalm into
the arcology (or other incendiary).

Have a decker re-route the city's water and sewage and flood the
building. Viola, you've just turned the arcology into an aquarium.

Get together all your mage buddies and their elementals and cast a
ritual disregard spell on the arcology.

Ooooo, adventure idea. What if someone from earthdawn thought they had
a brilliant idea to escape the horrors and did that to a
fortress/castle, but it backfired because anyone who left the castle
couldn't find it again, and those within the castle couldn't sustain
themselves. And now the castle is in the middle of a major
metropolitan city. A lone researcher (a few cards shy of a full deck)
tracks the castle down and hires the runners to get him inside.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 5
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Demolish or Recycle
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:51:00 -0500
At 12:29 PM 1/4/99 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>According to Starjammer, at 14:08 on 3 Jan 99, the word on
>the street was...
>
>> Most likely, given the defenses of the Arcology, precision-guided
>> high-kinetic-energy projectiles. That's the US Army's current tank-killing
>> weapon of choice. No messy explosives or chemicals, just a piece of shaped
>> metal or composite travelling at a few hundred meters a second.
>
>More like 1500 m/s (and even higher near the muzzle).

For tanks, yes. For our purposes here, no. (See below.)

>> It'll blow right through almost anything.
>
>Yes, and that makes it a bit unsuitable to destroy something like a
>building with. You shoot a hole in one wall, and then it flies out through
>the wall on the other side -- the armor-piercing capacity of modern tank
>ammo is astounding, and reinforced concrete doesn't stop projectiles all
>that well in the first place (HMG rounds can shoot through a concrete
>house wall, for example. Think about what a 45 mm, 7 kg projectile at 1500
>m/s will go through...)

Yes. Note that I didn't say "anti-tank rounds," just high-energy
projectiles. I brought up anti-tank ammo to preemptively answer those
who'd wonder if it'd do the job. Obviously you'd want to use a slower and
differently-shaped round for two reasons: 1) to prevent blow-through, and
2) to ensure that most of the projectile's energy is used in punching the
largest possible hole in the structure where you want it to. Even with
Deus and the Otaku running Matrix interference, Renraku's got to have at
least one offline mainframe with the arcology's plans and engineering notes
that they can do reliable calculations on.

You're right, it's not a real reliable way to bring the whole thing down
neatly. But it should be good enough to start the job and quell resistance
enough so that conventional demolition techniques can finish it.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Demolish or Recycle
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:47:34 +0100
According to Starjammer, at 12:51 on 4 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> >Yes, and that makes it a bit unsuitable to destroy something like a
> >building with. You shoot a hole in one wall, and then it flies out through
> >the wall on the other side -- the armor-piercing capacity of modern tank
> >ammo is astounding, and reinforced concrete doesn't stop projectiles all
> >that well in the first place (HMG rounds can shoot through a concrete
> >house wall, for example. Think about what a 45 mm, 7 kg projectile at 1500
> >m/s will go through...)
>
> Yes. Note that I didn't say "anti-tank rounds," just high-energy
> projectiles. I brought up anti-tank ammo to preemptively answer those
> who'd wonder if it'd do the job.

Unfortunately, you did it in such a way that I got the impression you
wanted to use APFSDS to destroy a building with...

> You're right, it's not a real reliable way to bring the whole thing down
> neatly. But it should be good enough to start the job and quell resistance
> enough so that conventional demolition techniques can finish it.

When it comes to that, I don't think you'd need such rounds anyway. If you
want to do it neatly, without collateral damage, you simply can't do it
without spending a lot of time, I think.

David Buehrer suggested arson, and while that might work, you'd have to
stick around to make sure the firefighters don't come and put out the
flames. This could lead to weird situations where shadowrunners shoot at
firefighters attempting to enter a certain building, but allowing them to
prevent other buildings nearby from being set on fire as well :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Demolish or Recycle
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:06:08 -0500
At 07:47 PM 1/4/99 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>Unfortunately, you did it in such a way that I got the impression you
>wanted to use APFSDS to destroy a building with...

Mea culpa. I would never use milspec weapons against architecture unless
the building in question REALLY pissed me off... :)

>> You're right, it's not a real reliable way to bring the whole thing down
>> neatly. But it should be good enough to start the job and quell resistance
>> enough so that conventional demolition techniques can finish it.
>
>When it comes to that, I don't think you'd need such rounds anyway. If you
>want to do it neatly, without collateral damage, you simply can't do it
>without spending a lot of time, I think.
>
>David Buehrer suggested arson, and while that might work, you'd have to
>stick around to make sure the firefighters don't come and put out the
>flames. This could lead to weird situations where shadowrunners shoot at
>firefighters attempting to enter a certain building, but allowing them to
>prevent other buildings nearby from being set on fire as well :)

Well, actually I was working under the assumption that the question was,
"How can Renraku take down the Arcology from outside?" Which assumes a
public effort by the corp and long-term demolitions. If the question
becomes, "How could runners take down the Arcology?" then the answer is
simple. They can't. The building's too big for any quick-fix methods.


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 8
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Demolish or Recycle
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:42:20 EST
In a message dated 99-01-04 06:30:33 EST, you write:

> As for blowing it up, you have two choices: either use a lot of explosives
> so you destroy all the supporting walls and pillars with one blow, or
> carefully place small amounts of explosives timed to go off at exactly the
> right times. The latter takes months of preparation, so it's not something
> shadowrunners can do, but it will take down the building without damaging
> nearby property.

Thats not what I was suggesting... rather, I was suggesting that once the
engineers know where to place the charges (something that can be determined by
the bluprints from when they built it) the runners have to take out whatever
security is in the way to get the engineers in to place the charges
unmolested.

Thats more of what I had in mind when I suggested that, anyway....

--
Starrngr -- Now with an UPDATED webpage:
Ranger HQ
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm">;
HTTP://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm</A>;

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they call
you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Demolish or Recycle
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:14:09 +0100
According to Micheal Feeney, at 15:42 on 4 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Thats not what I was suggesting... rather, I was suggesting that once the
> engineers know where to place the charges (something that can be determined by
> the bluprints from when they built it) the runners have to take out whatever
> security is in the way to get the engineers in to place the charges
> unmolested.

I still don't think this will work, unless you're prepared to use more
explosives than strictly necessary, and in a relatively uncontrolled blast
-- both of which will lead to damage to nearby buildings, vehicles, and
people. The simple fact is that to do this sort of thing neatly, you need
to spend a lot of time on-site.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Take advantage. Or so it seems.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

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