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Message no. 1
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!!!!!
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:20:08 -0400
Coming up...30 lines 'o' Spoilers. If you're not supposed to be looking
at Horror/Enemy type stuff, or if you're involved in the module
Harlequin's Back, Move Along, Move Along.!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!End Spoilers...

I'd say critters like Corpselights and Nomads COULD be considered
precursers to 'true' Horrors, but they'd be EXTREMELY low level ones.
It's been hinted in the Paranormal Animals of Europe, that the
Wraith may be a harbinger of these nasty litle buggers as well.
BUT, keep in mind, the two times (to my knowledge) that actual
stats for THE ENEMY have been displayed, these guys were downright
TERRIFYING!!! And I'm a GM who LOVES to torment and test his players!
The Body for these guys was between 10-14!
Their initiative was something like 10 + 4D6! They got THREE MELEE
attacks per action, as opposed to PCs and NPCs getting only ONE! Their
Threat Rating was something like 7 - 9!
I ran HARLEQUIN'S BACK for my group, and their first encounter
almost left them TOTALLY devestated! [All except for my resident
powergamer, who seems to up the stats on his character everytime I look
away! He actually matched them blow for blow, that is until I took his
'Munchie Armor and Weapons and Cyber and Magic' down a peg. Note to
GM's, it's tough during a campaign to keep track of everything a player
is up to, and I rely on a fair degree of honesty when they state their
intentions, but keep an eye on your powergamers, or they'll come back
and bite you on the butt!].
I don't think the SR World in general is ready for a full on
invasion of The Enemy; not for sometime to come. My players enjoyed the
terrifying level of the opposition, but after losing one character
falling into the Astral Chasm, and another who got just a bit too close
to the critters and had his head bitten off, and the insides sucked out,
they figured to call it a draw after destroying the bridge and go home,
and hide under their pillows, in a well fortified bunker!

I'm Audi! [Beeep Beeep!]

Kohl
Message no. 2
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!!!!!
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:51:54 +0100
|
|Coming up...30 lines 'o' Spoilers. If you're not supposed to be looking
|at Horror/Enemy type stuff, or if you're involved in the module
|Harlequin's Back, Move Along, Move Along.!!!
|!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!End Spoilers...

I think you meant 30 exclamation marks of spoiler space.
Not lines. Which made it useless.
I think you might need to have a look at your mailer configuration.

anyway.... If there's something for me to add....
























| I'd say critters like Corpselights and Nomads COULD be considered
|precursers to 'true' Horrors, but they'd be EXTREMELY low level ones.

It's always the weak ones that come through first....

| It's been hinted in the Paranormal Animals of Europe, that the
|Wraith may be a harbinger of these nasty litle buggers as well.

Thought so....

| BUT, keep in mind, the two times (to my knowledge) that actual
|stats for THE ENEMY have been displayed, these guys were downright
|TERRIFYING!!! And I'm a GM who LOVES to torment and test his players!

Well of COURSE they were. They were full blown horrors.
Even weaker horrors of Earthdawn'd be very nasty in shadowrun....

| I ran HARLEQUIN'S BACK for my group, and their first encounter
|almost left them TOTALLY devestated! [All except for my resident
|powergamer, who seems to up the stats on his character everytime I look
|away!

You really should copy his sheet and keep that copy, and compate it every
game session then. If he cheats, the only thing he does is spoil it for
everyone else....

He actually matched them blow for blow, that is until I took his
|'Munchie Armor and Weapons and Cyber and Magic' down a peg. Note to
|GM's, it's tough during a campaign to keep track of everything a player
|is up to, and I rely on a fair degree of honesty when they state their
|intentions, but keep an eye on your powergamers, or they'll come back
|and bite you on the butt!].

BUT... If you suspect them of cheating, take the appropriate steps.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!!!!!
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:17:05 -0500
At 01:20 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
#Coming up...30 lines 'o' Spoilers. If you're not supposed to be looking
#at Horror/Enemy type stuff, or if you're involved in the module
#Harlequin's Back, Move Along, Move Along.!!!
#!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!End Spoilers...

maybe next time you'll put the 30 lines in?

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 4
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!!!!!
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:19:28 -0500
spioler space about the enemy
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#| BUT, keep in mind, the two times (to my knowledge) that actual
#|stats for THE ENEMY have been displayed, these guys were downright
#|TERRIFYING!!! And I'm a GM who LOVES to torment and test his players!
#
#Well of COURSE they were. They were full blown horrors.
#Even weaker horrors of Earthdawn'd be very nasty in shadowrun....

where were they mentioned?
what books? I don't believe I've seen them

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 5
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!!!!!
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:43:33 -0800
At 11:19 PM 7/16/97, Jaymz wrote:
>spioler space about the enemy
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#| BUT, keep in mind, the two times (to my knowledge) that actual
>#|stats for THE ENEMY have been displayed, these guys were downright
>#|TERRIFYING!!! And I'm a GM who LOVES to torment and test his players!
>#
>#Well of COURSE they were. They were full blown horrors.
>#Even weaker horrors of Earthdawn'd be very nasty in shadowrun....
>
>where were they mentioned?
>what books? I don't believe I've seen them
>

Harlequins Back. Stats for Horrors and everything. Definitely nasty.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"I can't help it, I'm a greedy slob. It's my hobby."
-Daffy Duck
Message no. 6
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!!!!!
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:39:03 -0500
At 10:43 PM 7/16/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 11:19 PM 7/16/97, Jaymz wrote:
>>spioler space about the enemy
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#
>>#| BUT, keep in mind, the two times (to my knowledge) that actual
>>#|stats for THE ENEMY have been displayed, these guys were downright
>>#|TERRIFYING!!! And I'm a GM who LOVES to torment and test his players!
>>#
>>#Well of COURSE they were. They were full blown horrors.
>>#Even weaker horrors of Earthdawn'd be very nasty in shadowrun....
>>
>>where were they mentioned?
>>what books? I don't believe I've seen them
>>
>
>Harlequins Back. Stats for Horrors and everything. Definitely nasty.
>
>D.
>
>David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
I agree that they were nasty, but I thought they were just constructs.
Take a look at the similarities between the Crawlers, and Jethura (sp?)
Almost positive they are one in the same in which case, SR is in big
trouble. Cause they really messed up my group of pretty darn powerful PCs,
and our ED group can take several Jethura, null sweat.

-=Court

/* Court Schuett, a totally modern boy.

schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If I was God no one would doubt it
We wouldn't need church to get
The mystery that we once knew
The something we forget
-Too Much Joy

***************************************************************************/
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!!!!!
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:18:34 +0100
|
|At 10:43 PM 7/16/97 -0800, you wrote:
|>At 11:19 PM 7/16/97, Jaymz wrote:
|>>spioler space about the enemy













































|>Harlequins Back. Stats for Horrors and everything. Definitely nasty.
|>
|>D.
|>
|>David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
|I agree that they were nasty, but I thought they were just constructs.

They were constructs.....

|Take a look at the similarities between the Crawlers, and Jethura (sp?)
|Almost positive they are one in the same in which case, SR is in big
|trouble. Cause they really messed up my group of pretty darn powerful PCs,
|and our ED group can take several Jethura, null sweat.

Exactly my point. I think Wraiths are VERY nasty critters, and they're
WEAKER than Jerutha (sp... may as well vary it. I think that's closer).
Now take a rather weak true horror... Like the Thought Worm, or Crystal
thingy.....

And how about Spectral dancers? They can be VERY nasty indeedy....
(They're only tortured souls of trapped by a Horror)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!!!!!
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:35:19 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-17 09:39:39 EDT, schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU (Court
Schuett) writes:

> I agree that they were nasty, but I thought they were just constructs.
> Take a look at the similarities between the Crawlers, and Jethura (sp?)
> Almost positive they are one in the same in which case, SR is in big
> trouble. Cause they really messed up my group of pretty darn powerful
PCs,
> and our ED group can take several Jethura, null sweat.
>
> -=Court
>
A question came up to me concerning ED/SR crossovers with the Horrors. Those
Horrors in the book (Harley and all), have multiple attacks, but the attacks
were considered "slighter" than a principle attack. I may be remembeing
incorrectly on this, I admit.

Anyway, multiple action combat exists in SR, it just requires more. Karma
and Experience in this case. Ambidexterity, Off-Hand, Blind-Fighting, Zero-G
Ops (for the space farers) are all optional "special skills" that could be
developed, and quickly allow for a character to "keep up" with the Horrors.
Okay, maybe not the "Named Horrors", but the one's so far...sure...
-Keith
Message no. 9
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!!!!!
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:13:44 -0500
At 08:35 PM 7/17/97 -0400, Keith wrote:













>
>A question came up to me concerning ED/SR crossovers with the Horrors. Those
>Horrors in the book (Harley and all), have multiple attacks, but the attacks
>were considered "slighter" than a principle attack. I may be remembeing
>incorrectly on this, I admit.
I just happened to have my copy of Harley's Back sitting on the computer
desk, so... :)
The Crawlers go at 7+4d6, fast, an average of 21, that's 3 times a round,
plus they get two attacks for every init. phase, now we're talking 6 times
a round, plus, if both of those hit, they get an extra, for a maximum of 9
times a round. Granted the third attack *just* reduces reaction. :) Well,
they get 13 attack dice, plus a threat rating of 6, that's 19 dice just to
attack. I don't know many runners that could take that. So the runners
are probably going to get hit twice, and maybe slowed down a bit. The only
thing that they don't get is a reach modifier. If they had that, they'd be
just about unstoppable. Personally I kicked it down to 1 attack a phase.
I just couldn't kill the characters at the very beginning of the whole
adventure. But don't tell them that, they still think they're really
tough. :) *shhh* :)

>Anyway, multiple action combat exists in SR, it just requires more. Karma
>and Experience in this case. Ambidexterity, Off-Hand, Blind-Fighting, Zero-G
>Ops (for the space farers) are all optional "special skills" that could be
>developed, and quickly allow for a character to "keep up" with the Horrors.
> Okay, maybe not the "Named Horrors", but the one's so far...sure...

The only problem with these, at least Ambi, off-hand, is that they take
incredible (and I think mostly rightfully so) penalties to attack, making
it almost impossible to hit. BTW, what is Zero-G fighting? Must have
missed that. Is that in the Missions adventures? Is that any good?

>-Keith

P.S. No prob about no spoilers, my group already ran through HB.
-=Court

/* Court Schuett, a totally modern boy.

schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If I was God no one would doubt it
We wouldn't need church to get
The mystery that we once knew
The something we forget
-Too Much Joy

***************************************************************************/
Message no. 10
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:29:21 GMT
Fisher, Victor writes

> Coming up...30 lines 'o' Spoilers. If you're not supposed to be looking
> at Horror/Enemy type stuff, or if you're involved in the module
> Harlequin's Back, Move Along, Move Along.!!!
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!End Spoilers...
>
i'll put them in.





















> I'd say critters like Corpselights and Nomads COULD be considered
> precursers to 'true' Horrors, but they'd be EXTREMELY low level ones.
> It's been hinted in the Paranormal Animals of Europe, that the
> Wraith may be a harbinger of these nasty litle buggers as well.
Wraithlike spirits are mentioned in the ED intro that sound just like
the SR version so i don't think they are Horrors per se though they
are a similar astral nasty just a different one.

> BUT, keep in mind, the two times (to my knowledge) that actual
> stats for THE ENEMY have been displayed, these guys were downright
> TERRIFYING!!! And I'm a GM who LOVES to torment and test his players!
Actually only one 'true' Horror has got SR stats from FASA the one in
the 'Masquerade' section of HB. The rest of the thigs are merely
Horror constructs, though they are still pretty hard!


> I ran HARLEQUIN'S BACK for my group, and their first encounter
> almost left them TOTALLY devestated!
Yeah i found it more like an ED horror bash when i ran it, PC's
flying thought the air with the greatest of ease, then the guy with
the combat axe got to playing 'horror constuct' jack and it all got
over in time for Harlequin to do a bit of quick PC reconstruction.

> I don't think the SR World in general is ready for a full on
> invasion of The Enemy; not for sometime to come.
Very true, much more powerful magic to hide from them is required
along with things like spell matricies and some more tech would help,
as H comments (i have used my own not FASA's words) 2000 years with ED
magic and tech to make 'Star trek' look tame in many regards Earth
might win, now everyone but the great dragons are dead.

Mark
Message no. 11
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:32:36 GMT
Court Schuett writes

> At 10:43 PM 7/16/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >At 11:19 PM 7/16/97, Jaymz wrote:
> >>spioler space about the enemy
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#
> >>#Well of COURSE they were. They were full blown horrors.
> >>#Even weaker horrors of Earthdawn'd be very nasty in shadowrun....
> >
> >Harlequins Back. Stats for Horrors and everything. Definitely nasty.
> >
> >David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
> I agree that they were nasty, but I thought they were just constructs.
> Take a look at the similarities between the Crawlers, and Jethura
> Almost positive they are one in the same in which case, SR is in big
> trouble. Cause they really messed up my group of pretty darn powerful PCs,
> and our ED group can take several Jethura, null sweat.
The crawlers look pretty much the same but i suspect they are quite a
bit tougher than Jethura which can be beat up by low circle
characters, and there were 4 against the PC's in HB. I suspect stone
falsemen might be closer abilities wise (though they are a very
different thing). But with the ED stats handy i don't know my Ed
monsters well enough.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:37:16 GMT
J. Keith Henry writes

> In a message dated 97-07-17 09:39:39 EDT, schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU (Court
> Schuett) writes:
>
spoilers


















> A question came up to me concerning ED/SR crossovers with the Horrors. Those
> Horrors in the book (Harley and all), have multiple attacks, but the attacks
> were considered "slighter" than a principle attack. I may be remembeing
> incorrectly on this, I admit.
>
> Anyway, multiple action combat exists in SR, it just requires more. Karma
> and Experience in this case. Ambidexterity, Off-Hand, Blind-Fighting, Zero-G
> Ops (for the space farers) are all optional "special skills" that could be
> developed, and quickly allow for a character to "keep up" with the Horrors.
> Okay, maybe not the "Named Horrors", but the one's so far...sure...
> -Keith
>
If required you could reduce the interaction delay from 10 for the ED
stuff with lots of attacks per round, PC's can get a maximum 2
actions in ED (except for claw frenzy which is just obscene) while
big horrors can get up to 5 physical + 5 spellcasting actions (though
about 6 total is more reasonable).
I did the one time i used a big (ish) horror, a physical action every
10, spellcasting actions 5 initiatives later, well had in not been
shot by an LMG, Vindicactor loading APDS and an ATGM in rappid
succession (yes the showdown was fixed so the PC's stood a chance, SR
magicians vs Horrors is a joke)

Mark
Message no. 13
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Demon Magic - Spoilers for anyone in a ENEMY type game!
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:05:40 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-18 13:00:34 EDT, M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk (Mark
Steedman) writes:

> spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If required you could reduce the interaction delay from 10 for the ED
> stuff with lots of attacks per round, PC's can get a maximum 2
> actions in ED (except for claw frenzy which is just obscene) while
> big horrors can get up to 5 physical + 5 spellcasting actions (though
> about 6 total is more reasonable).
> I did the one time i used a big (ish) horror, a physical action every
> 10, spellcasting actions 5 initiatives later, well had in not been
> shot by an LMG, Vindicactor loading APDS and an ATGM in rappid
> succession (yes the showdown was fixed so the PC's stood a chance, SR
> magicians vs Horrors is a joke)
> Mark

Yeah, well you want some really big fun. Give me a Great Form 6 being with
Sorcery and I'll show you how to do some dancing. 2 spells and 4 targets
attacked in a single action series. No problems, No drain, and all by the
rules.
-Keith

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