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Message no. 1
From: "Matthew P. Sims" <SIMSM%AM.mrgate@*****.UML.EDU>
Subject: Denver
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 01:13:18 EST
The reason why they are coming out with a Denver sourcebook (and this is what
I heard on the newsgroup) is that something drastic is going to happen to
Seattle. Some heard rumors that it's going to get nuked.
Just something that's been going around.

(-sheepherder-)
Message no. 2
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 00:27:21 -0600
On Sat, 26 Mar 1994, Matthew P. Sims wrote:

> The reason why they are coming out with a Denver sourcebook (and this is what
> I heard on the newsgroup) is that something drastic is going to happen to
> Seattle. Some heard rumors that it's going to get nuked.
> Just something that's been going around.

Well, I never liked Seattle as the center of the SR universe anyways.
Seemed too far out of the way. (I personally based all of my adventures
for a long time in Chicago).

Now, nuking Seattle would certainly be a VERY scarey thing to do, simply
because I feel it is only a matter of time before there is a terrorist
nuking of some large city in the world. With the proliferation of
black-market nukes and the huge number of fundamentalist causes out
there, it's a deadly timebomb waiting to go off.

(besides which, it would REALLY phuck up ShadowTalk. :-)

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 3
From: the holy Entombed <rasputin@***.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 03:18:55 -0500
On Sat, 26 Mar 1994, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> Well, I never liked Seattle as the center of the SR universe anyways.
> Seemed too far out of the way. (I personally based all of my adventures
> for a long time in Chicago).

Amen. My group spent nearly 18 mos. real thyme in Chicago, with
excursions to such faraway places as Milwaukee and Toronto. Now there's
a city that could do with its own sourcebook.

> Now, nuking Seattle would certainly be a VERY scarey thing to do, simply
> because I feel it is only a matter of time before there is a terrorist
> nuking of some large city in the world. With the proliferation of
> black-market nukes and the huge number of fundamentalist causes out
> there, it's a deadly timebomb waiting to go off.

Yeah, it kinda makes the World Trade Center incident look rather amateur,
and we should ironically thank the gods that the idiots behind that
bombing weren't more knowledgeable, resourceful, and patient.
__
>>>>>>>> [_
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >
the holy [_ntombed :: Rasputin@***.umd.edu >> > > > > >
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >
Message no. 4
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 13:34:18 -0500
>The reason why they are coming out with a Denver sourcebook (and this is what
>I heard on the newsgroup) is that something drastic is going to happen to
>Seattle. Some heard rumors that it's going to get nuked.
>Just something that's been going around.

An excellent example of what rumors can do. The DLoH has publicly stated
around next GenCon, a city in Shadowrun will become very unhappy. Nothing was
said about being nuked, nothing was said about Seattle. For that matter,
nothing was said about the city at all, except that it will be in North
America.

Matt
Message no. 5
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 16:06:08 -0700
changes in Seattle?

Most probably it won't be a nuking - rather it would be

Succession from the UCAS
Race riots
Magical disastor
vitas outbreak
horror invasion
martial law because of something
foreign invasion


things it probably won't be
nuking
An AI war
An insane toaster taking over the matrix and broadcasting subliminal messages
saying eat toast


BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
GE - d+(-) -p+@ c++(++++) !L u(--) e+(*) m+ s+/ !n+(-) h* f+ g+ w+++ t+ r+ y+
"infinity = zero" - Daniel Waisley "Nightfox"
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Message no. 6
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 20:26:27 -0500
>An insane toaster taking over the matrix and broadcasting subliminal messages
> saying eat toast


a la "Red Dwarf", of course... :)

Matt
Message no. 7
From: Necromancer <shilberg@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 20:16:09 -0600
I still haven't heard conclusive proof that Seattle will be "nuked" or that
the city will even be Seattle. Tom Dowd supposedly said "A major UCAS city
will be a very unhappy place to live." There are quite a few major UCAS cities
and "unhappy" isn't exactly the best of terms. Unhappy could mean turned
inotgiant prison <ever seen "Escape from NY"? I think that would be
cool....>

-------------
Steve Hilberg <shilberg@********.uni.uiuc.edu>
aka Jarred Wellsley <Necromancer>
aka Phaeros Lostchilde <Archlich of the Dark Order, High Necromancer
of Zalanthas>
Play Armageddon <studsys.mscs.mu.edu 4444>!
Message no. 8
From: Timothy Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 23:54:29 -0600
NE> ant prison <ever seen "Escape from NY"? I think that would be
NE> cool....>

New York? Nah, it'll be something better...

How about Milwaukee? We don't need Milwaukee...St Loius maybe? Who'd
miss the Cardinals? And it'd create border tension with the UCAS - CAS; think
of the possibilities!

<grin>

----------------------- "Well, you see, they took the Bible literally.
Tim Skirvin Adam and Eve, the snake and the apple...took
(tskirvin@ it word for word. Unfortunately, their
superdec.uni.uiuc.edu) version had a misprint."
----------------------- - Rimmer, Red Dwarf (The Last Day)
Message no. 9
From: Joshua James Harrison <harrij4@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 02:10:58 -0500
On Mar 26, 8:26pm, Matt wrote:
> Subject: Re: Denver
> >An insane toaster taking over the matrix and broadcasting subliminal
> >messages saying eat toast
>
> a la "Red Dwarf", of course... :)
>
> Matt
>-- End of excerpt from Matt

Actually, it's not only Red Dwarf... its also a past plot thread over on
Shadowtalk... heh heh... it was kinda fun... The Dante/Talky debacle... I
enjoyed it... :)

TOAST IS GOOD... EAT MORE TOAST... TOAST IS GOOD... EAT MORE *BOOOOM*

Thank you...



--
Josh Harrison | A Elbereth Gilthoniel | "The Hedgehog"
aka A.M. Hawke | o menel palan-diriel, | \ \ | / /
Internet: | le nallon si di'nguruthos! | \ \ | / /
harrij4@***.edu | A tiro nin, Fanuilos! | --- O O ---
------------------------------------------------------------| / C \
'Now come, you filth!' he cried. 'You've hurt my master, | / m\_/m \
you brute, and you'll pay for it. We're going on; but we'll |---------------
settle with you first. Come on, and taste it again!' - Sam, "The Two Towers"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GE/T/O d++(--) -p+ c+(++) l u e+ m+(-) s+/ !n h f+(*) !g w+@ t+@ r(+) y?
Message no. 10
From: ANGLISS@***.PSU.EDU
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 15:33:38 -0500
Thank you. Dan and I rather enjoyed it as well. I am pleased to see that
others did as well.

Brian(aka Dante, et al)
Message no. 11
From: Fahnuir <FAHNUIR@******.BITNET>
Subject: Denver
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 07:41:57 PRT
Hummm....

*looks to all the answers he got*

I wouldn't like Seattle to be nuked. I kinda like the place for Shadowrun.
They can nuke one of those fraging indian citys, but i don't think Seattle woul
d be their best choice.

1st - There is a Seattle Sourcebook that would become completly usless if the s
prawl got nuked

2nd - There is a lot of adventures that take place in Seattle, and they couldn'
t be played anymore (at least played as they're writen...)

3rd - There's a lot of ppl running campains based in Seattle. That would put an
end to o lot of them... like mine for exemple. Unless i took the players to so
mewhere else (hummm... look to all the Seattle runners comunity moving to new c
itys as all the pedestrians die during the nuking).


I'd rather have New York nuked... or Washington D.C.... hummm....maybe they pl
an to nuke L.A. in the City of Angels Sourcebook...


About the movie, i don't know anything for certain, but a friend of mine sai
d that he ahd read something about that in a newspaper or magazine here in Port
ugal.

About Denver and Fields of Fire... i think i need to have a talk with the guy
s responsable for my gaming club/shop. Sooo.... the books arrive this week...
*sound of sword beeing drawn from the scabard*

Fahnuir

"Let me show you the world in my eyes..." - dM
Message no. 12
From: "NEAL T. MOSS" <ntmoss@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 19:44:45 -0500
On Sat, 26 Mar 1994, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> Well, I never liked Seattle as the center of the SR universe anyways.
> Seemed too far out of the way. (I personally based all of my adventures
> for a long time in Chicago).
>
> Now, nuking Seattle would certainly be a VERY scarey thing to do, simply
> because I feel it is only a matter of time before there is a terrorist
> nuking of some large city in the world. With the proliferation of
> black-market nukes and the huge number of fundamentalist causes out
> there, it's a deadly timebomb waiting to go off.
>
No need to worry about Seattle Hayden old chummer. I hate to tell
you this but Chicago is the city that is gonna get messed up. It's not
gonna get nuked either it's gonna be taken over by the insects (aka the
Invae in ED) For those of you that have the ED boxed set on page 17+18 it
tells how the invae were around before the true Scourge came. They are
described as being just like the insects in SR. ie..Invae induce
metamorphosis, transforming a victim into a Invae hybrid which breed
others to increase the power and power of the hive until it can summon an
Invae queen from astral space. Remember folks you heard it here first
Chicago is toast......:)

Tsunami.............
Message no. 13
From: Neal A Porter <nap@*****.PHYSICS.SWIN.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 11:34:44 +1000
>
> I think nothing could be more boring than a SourceBook about Los Angeles.
> There's mmuch more interesting stuff to be published (>>>> Harlequin's
Back).
> So I wonder what makes Denver so important that FASA brings out a Denver
> Campaign Set? Has anybody some info on that Set ?

Remember that Denver is controled by four seperate govenments, each
with their own quarter for control. Similar to Berlin after WW2 where each
of the powers controlled part of the city. With all the oppotunities for spying
between these govenments and the intrigue involved, such a setting would
be very interesting for a run or two.

A'Deus.
Message no. 14
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 10:15:50 -0700
On Tue, 17 May 1994, Neal A Porter wrote:

> >
> > I think nothing could be more boring than a SourceBook about Los Angeles.
> > There's mmuch more interesting stuff to be published (>>>>
Harlequin's Back).
> > So I wonder what makes Denver so important that FASA brings out a Denver
> > Campaign Set? Has anybody some info on that Set ?
>
> Remember that Denver is controled by four seperate govenments, each
> with their own quarter for control. Similar to Berlin after WW2 where each
> of the powers controlled part of the city. With all the oppotunities for spying
> between these govenments and the intrigue involved, such a setting would
> be very interesting for a run or two.
>
> A'Deus.
>
Yes, it would be interesting for a run or two. So why aren't
they putting out something more useful? Like a World Atlas for 2055 or
something else that a GM can get some regular use out of?
Ivy K
Message no. 15
From: Bitrunner@***.COM
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 10:57:11 EDT
> > I think nothing could be more boring than a SourceBook about Los Angeles.
> > There's mmuch more interesting stuff to be published (>>>>
Harlequin's
Back).
> > So I wonder what makes Denver so important that FASA brings out a Denver
> > Campaign Set? Has anybody some info on that Set ?

i can relay that the box set will have the books and maps for denver,
plus some "toys"...Dowd won't say what the "toys" are, he just likes
to tease us on AOL...
Message no. 16
From: "Bill P. Flint" <claymore@******.DIGEX.NET>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 23:49:56 -0400
Denver is also the neutral ground of North America, aka Babylon 5.

--Claymore
Message no. 17
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Denver
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 13:27:25 -0600
I'm sure that I don't have to say this, but I'm just making sure.

I'd like to request that those of us who are gamemasters out there who
have the Denver sourcebox not discuss the contents of the GM's book. I
have a player interested in this mailing list and I do not want him to
know about anything that goes on in there, because he has a habit of
gossiping about restricted info.

Again, I do not mean to insult anyone's integrity or intelligence, nor do
I mean to insult those of us who play the game.

John IV
Message no. 18
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 15:13:33 -0500
If you want, we ought to set up some sort of a discussion list (hell, I'll run
it) for discussing that sort of thing...
Message no. 19
From: "Bryan D. Jones" <bdj@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 15:55:35 -0500
"In an earlier message John Moeller quoted to SHADOWRN...."
>
>
>I'd like to request that those of us who are gamemasters out there who
>have the Denver sourcebox not discuss the contents of the GM's book. I
>have a player interested in this mailing list and I do not want him to
>know about anything that goes on in there, because he has a habit of
>gossiping about restricted info.
>
Sounds to me as if you really don't want to be on a shadowrun DISCUSSION list.
Want us to change the name to shadowrun THINK ABOUT IT BUT DON'T SAY ANYTHING
list? Whata ya say we take a vote? I vote we keep the name as it is.



--
Bryan D. Jones Computing Services
Internet: bdj@****.uark.edu University of Arkansas
Internet: bdj@****.uark.edu Bitnet bdj@*******
GAT d--(?) -p+ c++(++++) l+(-) u++ e*/+ m---(*) s/- n---(+) h* f+
g- w++ t++ r++ y+
Message no. 20
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 16:50:24 +0100
On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> If you want, we ought to set up some sort of a discussion list (hell, I'll run
> it) for discussing that sort of thing...

I don't think it is worth it, actually. In a week or two, Denver Box
will be old news. Besides, this is a forum for ALL people, not just
players. If you don't wnat your players to read about it, ask them to
log off but we shouldn't be expected to censor ourselves.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
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j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 21
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 12:58:33 +0000
Our Fearless Leader writes:

> > If you want, we ought to set up some sort of a discussion list (hell, I'll run
> > it) for discussing that sort of thing...
>
> I don't think it is worth it, actually. In a week or two, Denver Box
> will be old news. Besides, this is a forum for ALL people, not just
> players. If you don't wnat your players to read about it, ask them to
> log off but we shouldn't be expected to censor ourselves.

Yes, but out of courtesy it would be nice of us to add a "SPOILER" either in
the subject line or at the beginning of the message (then leave a page after
it).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 22
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 22:16:52 +0100
On Wed, 17 Aug 1994, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Yes, but out of courtesy it would be nice of us to add a "SPOILER" either
in
> the subject line or at the beginning of the message (then leave a page after
> it).

That or one could look at the subject line and see it is about Denver...

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
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j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 23
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 13:13:50 +0000
Our Fearless Leader writes:

> > Yes, but out of courtesy it would be nice of us to add a "SPOILER"
either in
> > the subject line or at the beginning of the message (then leave a page after
> > it).
>
> That or one could look at the subject line and see it is about Denver...

Could be something else about Denver though.

Sure this is a Shadowrun discussion group, but remember that people do
(if they are unfortunate) have players on here too. I don't (none of my
players are computer literate :-)), but I can see how annoying it would be
if I did.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 24
From: Eve Forward <ez019741@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 20:35:58 -0700
Damion writes:

>Sure this is a Shadowrun discussion group, but remember that people do
>(if they are unfortunate) have players on here too. I don't (none of my
>players are computer literate :-)), but I can see how annoying it would be

Hmm, I was (until I moved) one of the players in the game of a person
who reads this group. To tell the truth, I've never seen anything on here
that I would call a "spoiler"; sure, there's some discussion of new
products etc, but it's usually even stuff that wouldn't hurt a player to
know; stuff like "The Lone Star Sourcebook came out; Wow, those cops are
tough!"; a player, and even the player's character, probably already knows
that it ain't wise to tangle with the Lone Star boys. And if they don't
know, they should...
I've always found, in gaming, that if I should come across some
info that I shouldn't know, then it's best to just not us it. Let someone
else make the leap of logic or decide to look for secret doors; you, as
a player, and your character, should just keep your mouth shut.
I like reading this group, and I hope it will help me when I start
to GM Shadowrun myself. I don't think it should be "for GM's only", because
sometimes, rarely I admit, even GM's get a chance to actually *play*...
Message no. 25
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 14:28:23 +0000
> Hmm, I was (until I moved) one of the players in the game of a person
> who reads this group. To tell the truth, I've never seen anything on here
> that I would call a "spoiler";

True, there has been little flow of spoilers on this list. There have been a
couple though. It depends on what your game has covered. What may not have been
a spoiler for you may well have been one for some other person.

> I've always found, in gaming, that if I should come across some
> info that I shouldn't know, then it's best to just not us it. Let someone
> else make the leap of logic or decide to look for secret doors; you, as
> a player, and your character, should just keep your mouth shut.

But that would be _role-playing_! :-)

> I like reading this group, and I hope it will help me when I start
> to GM Shadowrun myself. I don't think it should be "for GM's only", because
> sometimes, rarely I admit, even GM's get a chance to actually *play*...

No, it shouldn't be just for GMs only, but it would be nice to think that GMs
can discuss things without ruining anybodys campaigns. It wouldn't be much fun
for a GM (in those rare moments he or she actually plays) to know about the
game they are playing in. Likewise for players (though they may not think that
knowing about stuff they shouldn't reduces the enjoyment of the game - but it
does, one of the best campaigns I played in [in $$&$] was where I did not know
anything at all about spelljamming, and we played a campaign which went from
the ground to space, it would have been much less enjoyable if I had gone out
and read my friends spelljammer sourcebooks). This applies to SR as well, only
a munchkin would enjoy a game more if he knew what was around the corner in the
adventure, than when he didn't.

I see nothing wrong with putting a spoiler header on messages which may be.

Even if I do role-play well, and not use the info I read when I shouldn't have,
the game would be more enjoyable if I hadn't. If a spoiler message is there,
then a player can at least not read the message, if there is no spoiler
message, then the player can inadvertantly read something which will (even if
they don't think so) reduce their own enjoyment of the game.

After all, we are in this for the fun, not to know all there is to know about
the Shadowrun universe.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
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f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 26
From: John Fox <johnf@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 00:01:45 -0500
On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, John Moeller wrote:

> I'd like to request that those of us who are gamemasters out there who
> have the Denver sourcebox not discuss the contents of the GM's book. I
> have a player interested in this mailing list and I do not want him to
> know about anything that goes on in there, because he has a habit of
> gossiping about restricted info.


The introduction to the Denver GM book actually aks the rhetorical
question, "So who cares if your players read the DENVER GAMEMASTER BOOK?"
(Caps = bold) Granted, FASA is tooting their own horn in this passage,
extolling the virtue of their crappy "options" system, but the quote
still stands.

The character and location info isn't so "top secret" anyways. It's
mostly garbage. The rest of the book is mainly reprints from the
Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life and other assorted tables. I wouldn't
sweat if your players find out how many pesos equal one nuyen or the
probability that their credstick will not pass inspection.

John Fox
johnf@*****.edu
Message no. 27
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 16:45:17 +0100
>"In an earlier message John Moeller quoted to SHADOWRN...."
>>
>>
>>I'd like to request that those of us who are gamemasters out there who
>>have the Denver sourcebox not discuss the contents of the GM's book. I
>>have a player interested in this mailing list and I do not want him to
>>know about anything that goes on in there, because he has a habit of
>>gossiping about restricted info.
>>
>>Sounds to me as if you really don't want to be on a shadowrun DISCUSSION
>list.
>Want us to change the name to shadowrun THINK ABOUT IT BUT DON'T SAY ANYTHING
>list? Whata ya say we take a vote? I vote we keep the name as it is.
>
>
>
>--
> Bryan D. Jones Computing Services
> Internet: bdj@****.uark.edu University of Arkansas
> Internet: bdj@****.uark.edu Bitnet bdj@*******
> GAT d--(?) -p+ c++(++++) l+(-) u++ e*/+ m---(*) s/- n---(+) h* f+
> g- w++ t++ r++ y+

That's a rather crass statemnt to make over a sensible point. Let's look
ahead a little to the release of Harlequin's Back.
Now there aare both players and gamesmasters on this list and it is not fair
to either impose what should and should not be said or to spoil many
people's games.
When HB is released, there will be the GMs wowing it out here and I think
that it would ruin many a game if players saw this material.My suggestion is
that we assume that the people whho read this list are mature and if they
*know* that a posting is a spoiler for the game that they are playing then
they will not read it any more than they would go down to a store and read
the module.
A simple solution therefore is that if there are things which are for GMs
eyes only, put a spoiler warning in the subject line of the posting.

I personally feel that people who post spoilers without warning deserve
hideous deaths, etc...

Micah Levy
Message no. 28
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 23:10:06 -0600
On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> If you want, we ought to set up some sort of a discussion list (hell, I'll run
> it) for discussing that sort of thing...

Ok, I'm up for it.

John IV
Message no. 29
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 23:18:34 -0600
On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Robert A. Hayden wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:
> > If you want, we ought to set up some sort of a discussion list (hell, I'll r
un
> > it) for discussing that sort of thing...
> I don't think it is worth it, actually. In a week or two, Denver Box
> will be old news. Besides, this is a forum for ALL people, not just
> players. If you don't wnat your players to read about it, ask them to
> log off but we shouldn't be expected to censor ourselves.

You're right. I shouldn't have made such a request. Thank you, however,
for telling me politely instead of screaming (per se) at me. A formal
apology to all. I wasn't thinking about the fact that I was condoning
the very thing that threatens the Internet. Censorship.

John IV. I'm very sorry.
Message no. 30
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 23:14:47 -0600
On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Bryan D. Jones wrote:
> "In an earlier message John Moeller quoted to SHADOWRN...."
> >I'd like to request that those of us who are gamemasters out there who
> >have the Denver sourcebox not discuss the contents of the GM's book. I
> >have a player interested in this mailing list and I do not want him to
> >know about anything that goes on in there, because he has a habit of
> >gossiping about restricted info.
> >
> Sounds to me as if you really don't want to be on a shadowrun DISCUSSION list.
> Want us to change the name to shadowrun THINK ABOUT IT BUT DON'T SAY ANYTHING
> list? Whata ya say we take a vote? I vote we keep the name as it is.

Alright, you don't have to be an asshole. It's just that if players knew
all of the GM information, then it kind of spoils the mystery. I still
think that this should be a discussion group. We never discuss the
contents of published modules, so why discuss the GM's book? Maybe I
shouldn't have said anything, or at least not the way I said it. I'm sorry.

John IV
Message no. 31
From: Electron Dancer <C598706@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Denver
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 15:21:22 CDT
NOTE: Anybody can read this. It is not GM-sensitive!!! 8}

We're supposed to get the set here in a couple of days...how much did it cost?
Somebody said something about $60...I hope that was during the discussion
about trying to buy all of the "collectable" cards. It sounds like the set's
worth 20-something maybe, if the maps are really good. And if anybody starts
playing adventures in the "new" setting, please tell us about how they go and
what problems you encounter in the rules or their application-these things are
useful to all of us out here (rather than 60 posts on whether prime-number
cryptography is really crackable, or whether the BOD should be cubed or
squared in the 17th ramming damage/knockback table/chart/equation. :)
--Trondo--->
Message no. 32
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 17:25:28 +0000
Trondo writes:

> rather than 60 posts on whether prime-number cryptography is really
> crackable, or whether the BOD should be cubed or squared in the 17th ramming
> damage/knockback table/chart/equation. :)

It wasn't prime number cyptography, it was quantum, and it didn't rely on prime
numbers (I think - someone correct me if I'm wrong). :-) [joke - don't anyone
reply, this is just a jibe at Trondo]. As for the Bod squared or cubed, I would
go with the squared, a cubed makes it too nasty :-)

But seriosuly, whats wrong with discussions on quantum cryptography? It was
SR relevant (well, sorta of), and gave me a good idea for a run. As for the
Ramming, I wholeheartedly agree, even though I was responsible for almost half
the mail on the topic. :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 33
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 01:35:49 -0600
> But seriosuly, whats wrong with discussions on quantum cryptography? It was
> SR relevant (well, sorta of), and gave me a good idea for a run. As for the
> Ramming, I wholeheartedly agree, even though I was responsible for almost half
> the mail on the topic. :-)

Well, actually, I was responsible for the whole thread. But you can't
expect to ask a question and not have it answered (well, sometimes,
maybe). Inevitably with any conversation, the subject is going to take
slight turns and twists, then somebody else comes along, etc.

Anyway, the topic _was_ getting a bit out of hand, I'll have to admit.

John IV
Message no. 34
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Denver
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 08:23:43 METDST
I don't know if anyone is interested, but yesterday (24th august), I've
got the Denver sourcebox. Can someone of the US guys tell me the release
date of the thing in the US?

Just to check if this is a record :)

Bye, Paolo

PS: There was everything in the box. With the Aztlan and the CAS passes.
Where can I get the other four passes?!

--
_________________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/home.html
Message no. 35
From: Bitrunner@***.COM
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 08:01:31 EDT
the denver box set was released sometime around the 12th of August or so,
depending on area and store deliveries...

as far as the other four passes, i only got mine by going to Gencon...maybe
others can write to FA$A and ask for them, they have a few extras (but not
enough evidently to just give everyone the full set)...it's first come first
served...

you can email Tom Dowd at FASATom@***.com
Good Luck!
Message no. 36
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 13:19:30 -0400
On Thu, 25 Aug 1994, Paolo Marcucci wrote:

> I don't know if anyone is interested, but yesterday (24th august), I've
> got the Denver sourcebox. Can someone of the US guys tell me the release
> date of the thing in the US?
>
It came out approx 9 Aug...

> Just to check if this is a record :)
>
???
>
> PS: There was everything in the box. With the Aztlan and the CAS passes.
> Where can I get the other four passes?!
>
At GenCon..Oops Thats over..Um well you might have some luck buying other
boxed sets..Other than that I don't think it is possible..You might try
writing to FA$A and complaining their way..With enough pressure they
might even make the set a normal thing that can be purchased..But I doubt
it...
-----------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 37
From: Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 14:20:46 -0700
On Thu, 25 Aug 1994, Paolo Marcucci wrote:

> I don't know if anyone is interested, but yesterday (24th august), I've
> got the Denver sourcebox. Can someone of the US guys tell me the release
> date of the thing in the US?
>
> Just to check if this is a record :)
>
> Bye, Paolo
>
> PS: There was everything in the box. With the Aztlan and the CAS passes.
> Where can I get the other four passes?!
>
> --
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
> marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/home.html
>

I got mine in San Francisco two weeks ago. You could get the other
passes from DLoH at GENCON.
Message no. 38
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 15:25:59 -0600
On Thu, 25 Aug 1994, Paolo Marcucci wrote:

> I don't know if anyone is interested, but yesterday (24th august), I've
> got the Denver sourcebox. Can someone of the US guys tell me the release
> date of the thing in the US?
>
> Just to check if this is a record :)
>
> Bye, Paolo
>
> PS: There was everything in the box. With the Aztlan and the CAS passes.
> Where can I get the other four passes?!

I'm not sure of the exact relaese date, but it was sometime at the
beginning of August.

And as to the other four passes, find another person with the Box.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// //
// I'm a dyslexic atheist. There is no dog. //
// //
// John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu> //
// //
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Message no. 39
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Denver
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:08:26 -0700
I got the Denver sourcebox. It says in the players guide that
there should be a grand total of 7 maps. I have two: a poster-sized
downtown map and a smaller sector map. Should there be more maps?

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 40
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 18:40:50 +0100
In reply to Adam Getchell .....
> I got the Denver sourcebox. It says in the players guide that
> there should be a grand total of 7 maps. I have two: a poster-sized
> downtown map and a smaller sector map. Should there be more maps?

Apparantly not, must be a misprint.
--
Phillip Steele - P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk - University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne
Message no. 41
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 17:59:58 -0400
On Fri, 26 Aug 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> I got the Denver sourcebox. It says in the players guide that
> there should be a grand total of 7 maps. I have two: a poster-sized
> downtown map and a smaller sector map. Should there be more maps?


When this very question was put to the DLoH at GenCon he had this to say,
"It still says that?!?!..Dooop..[Homer Simpson frusterated sound] "
The are only supposed to be 2 loose maps in the box set the big city map
and the FRFZ map [kinda small and useless...]
-----------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 42
From: Allen Versfeld <aversfel@****.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Denver
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:00:14 +0200
We just got the Denver sourcebook, and having just glanced over it, I am
beginning to wonder how to maintain my munchkin ways (if you consider
automatic weapons - hell, even burst fire! - to be munchkinous)
without incurring the wrath/attracting the attention of the powers that be.
Any hints?

We played last night, but the only obstacle was lone star with lots of
big guns. I kept having to throw away my gun, 'cause it was unlicensed (I
found it on one of the schmucks that tried to kill me)
It was like:
GM : you hear screeching tyres, and a lone star patrol vehicle stops
across the road
(we got into a firefight - not good in Denver!)
Me : Shit! Throw my gun down the nearest drain "Yes, officer?
why am I in Denver? uh... Vision quest - yeah, that is it!"
(long conversation with the star. they leave. desperately try to pull gun
out of drain b4 merc's realise that they can start shooting again. etc)
It's a lot of fun, but everyone seems able to pack heat with immunity
except us. bloody frustrating.

_____________________________________________
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Clarke
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"
- Murphy
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged
demo" - Old Programmer Saying
____________________________________________
mail: aversfel@****.cs.unp.ac.za
homepage: http://mars.cs.unp.ac.za/users/aversfel
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Message no. 43
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:34:17 +0100
Allen Versfeld said on 4 Oct 95...

> We just got the Denver sourcebook, and having just glanced over it, I am
> beginning to wonder how to maintain my munchkin ways (if you consider
> automatic weapons - hell, even burst fire! - to be munchkinous)
> without incurring the wrath/attracting the attention of the powers that be.

It's about as difficult to own a gun in Denver as it is in Seattle, I
think...

> It's a lot of fun, but everyone seems able to pack heat with immunity
> except us. bloody frustrating.

Isn't that a bit strange? Everybody has guns but the players are unable to
get them... You must be doing something wrong :) (Or maybe your GM is...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 44
From: Allen Versfeld <aversfel@****.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:25:11 +0200
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Gurth wrote:

> Allen Versfeld said on 4 Oct 95...
>
> > We just got the Denver sourcebook, and having just glanced over it, I am
> > beginning to wonder how to maintain my munchkin ways (if you consider
> > automatic weapons - hell, even burst fire! - to be munchkinous)
> > without incurring the wrath/attracting the attention of the powers that be.
>
> It's about as difficult to own a gun in Denver as it is in Seattle, I
> think...
>
We always played it like Seattle was little more than organsed chaos,
where as long as you aren't too obvious, anything goes. Try that in
Denver, and the Star come pick you up.
I wanted to play my troll sam that they call kenwood (slicing, dicing),
but it seems that he would simply disapear (it says that people with
wired reflexes 3 tend to disapear)
and all those permits u got to buy, and death penalty for auto weapons,
or some such... gets so a guy no longer has total freedom to do as he
pleases!
>
> Isn't that a bit strange? Everybody has guns but the players are unable to
> get them... You must be doing something wrong :) (Or maybe your GM is...)
>
As a parttime GM, I would not have it ny other way! nothing gets the
adrenaline going like a shitload of sammies armed with grenades and
ingram valients, while you are stuck with a berretta! (and a browning
maxpower with 1 clip of ammo that has to last entire adventure!)

> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Keep on running back into that wall
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
>
_____________________________________________
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Clarke
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"
- Murphy
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged
demo" - Old Programmer Saying
"Any technology distinguisgable from magic is insufficiently advanced"
- Unknown
____________________________________________
mail: aversfel@****.cs.unp.ac.za
homepage: http://mars.cs.unp.ac.za/users/aversfel
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Message no. 45
From: Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WICHITAKS.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:06:00 PDT
>We just got the Denver sourcebook, and having just glanced over it, I am
>beginning to wonder how to maintain my munchkin ways (if you consider
>automatic weapons - hell, even burst fire! - to be munchkinous)
>without incurring the wrath/attracting the attention of the powers that be.
>Any hints?

I was conversing with my GM last night because he wants me to gm the second
group of SR players, and I want to run Denver. We decided that Denver
stops alot of power players because of all of its quirks. Take for instance
our sam in the group who is filled to the gills with bio and cyber, if he
wants to move to one side of town to the other, he will have to do it by
running the borders, or have some type of arrangement (by very very powerful
people) to cross borders with very little problems. So this severly limits
what the sam can do. Denver requires more brains than brawn. This is not to
say anything about other modules/cities in SR, but you just can go through
the border without getting noticed. ANd the sam is not the only one who
sufferes this problem. Mages can/do have problems, heck my decker with C^2
would have lots of problems.

I can't think of anyway to answer your question/problem without knowing some
VERY high up people (or very very friendly with a good rigger) who can save
your hide. If anyone can point out to me what I missed, please tell me.

Guy Swartwood corporate decker by day, shadowrunner at night.
wildman@******.net
gswartwo@*********.wichitaks.attgis.com
Message no. 46
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 14:55:29 +0100
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Guy Swartwood wrote:

> <snip> We decided that Denver
> stops alot of power players because of all of its quirks. Take for instance
> our sam in the group who is filled to the gills with bio and cyber, if he
> wants to move to one side of town to the other, he will have to do it by
> running the borders, or have some type of arrangement (by very very powerful
> people) to cross borders with very little problems. So this severly limits
> what the sam can do.

Thats why I love my Detective character -no Cyberware, no bioware and no
magic. He would have it a LOT easier when travelling to other countries
and sectors. And yet some players have said he's useless without any of
that stuff (until my character killed one of them defending an innocent
bartender from one of the Street Sam's more unnecessary violent
interrogations!


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 47
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:51:32 -0600
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Guy Swartwood wrote:
> <snip> We decided that Denver
> stops alot of power players because of all of its quirks. Take for instance

The biggest hurdle our group is running into in Denver is the borders. Getting
across the borders is a real pain, although we have found a couple of ways
through in the really run-down areas (underground).

The rascism deal (against anglos) is actually kinda cool to play against.

--
_______<a
href="http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~loseke">Mike!</a>________
| Mike Loseke BOFH | Behold, here cometh the Dreamer. |
| mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | Let us slay him, and we shall see |
| Linux Linux Linux Linux Linux | what will become of his dreams. |
Message no. 48
From: Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WICHITAKS.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:26:00 PDT
>On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Guy Swartwood wrote:
>> <snip> We decided that Denver
>> stops alot of power players because of all of its quirks. Take for
instance

>The biggest hurdle our group is running into in Denver is the borders.
Getting
>across the borders is a real pain, although we have found a couple of ways
>through in the really run-down areas (underground).

>The rascism deal (against anglos) is actually kinda cool to play against.

Just curious, how often do you have to cross the borders? And can you give
me a rough percentage breakdown of the different types of methods do you use
to cross the borders?

Guy Swartwood corporate decker by day, shadowrunner at night
wildman@******.net
gswartwo@*********.wichitaks.attgis.com
Message no. 49
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:48:17 -0600
> >The biggest hurdle our group is running into in Denver is the borders.
> Getting
> >across the borders is a real pain, although we have found a couple of ways
> >through in the really run-down areas (underground).
>
> >The rascism deal (against anglos) is actually kinda cool to play against.
>
> Just curious, how often do you have to cross the borders? And can you give
> me a rough percentage breakdown of the different types of methods do you use
> to cross the borders?

We have to cross the borders a few times each session, but mostly for meeting
fixers and stuff like that. Most of our stuff goes down in the UCAS sector.
We normally get across on fake work visas, travel passes (some legal) and
my old rigger had a courier's frequent travel pass (almost a carde-blanche).

The serious street types (an ork in particular) has found a way to get from
the UCAS into the Sioux (and vice versa) underground in a sub-sewer system.
So far that hole hasn't been covered up, but we suspect it may be monitored,
so we use it infrequently.
Message no. 50
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:23:15 +0100
Guy Swartwood said on 4 Oct 95...

> Just curious, how often do you have to cross the borders?

I recall the one and only run I let my PCs make into Denver so far... I'd
planned it out so that they only had to be in the Sioux Sector, to stop
all that damn border-crossing (it gets my players annoyed if I put in
too many borders, which kind of tampers with the enjoyment of the game).
Then they get there and start to find the hotel where their main target
was hiding out -- the Hyatt-Star Regency.
I had thought "A hotel in the Sioux Sector. Ah, the Regency with the nice
attitude of the staff is perfect!" but I failed to do my homework -- the
Star is in the downtown area, not the basic Sioux sector... That made for
four border-crossings just to get to the hotel, find out there was nothing
there, and back...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 51
From: Ingmar Krusch <fastjack@******.ET-INF.FHO-EMDEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 13:47:12 +0100
> On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, The Digital Mage wrote:
>
> Thats why I love my Detective character -no Cyberware, no bioware and no
> magic. He would have it a LOT easier when travelling to other countries
> and sectors. And yet some players have said he's useless without any of
> that stuff (until my character killed one of them defending an innocent
> bartender from one of the Street Sam's more unnecessary violent
> interrogations!
>

How exactly did you manage to dust the Sam without a counterattack ( or whom
do you mean with one of *them* )?
I assume it's quite difficult to surprise a Sammy, isn't it ?


Salve


Ingmar
Message no. 52
From: CALMON PEDRO MARANHAO <calmpm1@*************.NICH.EDU>
Subject: Denver
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:57:09 CST
I was looking over the "Denver" boxed set and I could not help
but wonder about a few things. From what I understood, most
corporations avoided placing major manufacturing and research
facilities on the place because of the political volatility of the
city, plus the fear of espionage. Also, due to the fact that all
different sectors ofthe city are kind of "isolated" from one another,
it is unlikely that Denver stayed as a major trade center. So, my
question is: What in the hell keeps that place running???? I mean, if
people actually live their, they must earn their wages out of
something. For a city that big, I simply cannot imagine it being
capable to sustain itself without being a major industrial or
finance/trading center.

Pedro Maranhao Calmon
calmpm1@*************.nich.edu
PO BOX 2248
Thibodaux, LA 70310
(504)448-3863
Message no. 53
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 03:46:24 PST
> I was looking over the "Denver" boxed set and I could not help
>but wonder about a few things. From what I understood, most
>corporations avoided placing major manufacturing and research
>facilities on the place because of the political volatility of the
>city, plus the fear of espionage. Also, due to the fact that all
>different sectors ofthe city are kind of "isolated" from one another,
>it is unlikely that Denver stayed as a major trade center. So, my
>question is: What in the hell keeps that place running???? I mean, if
>people actually live their, they must earn their wages out of
>something. For a city that big, I simply cannot imagine it being
>capable to sustain itself without being a major industrial or
>finance/trading center.

You're in luck, my friend. It just so happens I was re-reading the
books myself at work for the past few nights(the first time I've really
read them page to page- I was never intrested enough before, usually I
just skimmed).
I'm sure ppl will add to my answers, and I'm no expert on the
subject, so take all comments with a grain of SoySalt.
The main think that keeps the place running as far as I can tell is
the fact that's still a trading hub. Planes, trains, and commercial
trucks stop for refueling and re-routing. It's also a big market, I'm
sure, for corps that support gubbiment activety(like Ares and Fuchi and
whoever has a piece of gubbiment pie). remember that free trade is what
made the countries fight over it to begin with. And local Denverites
who commute everyday over the borders have those "Frequent Visitor"
passes that allow them relatively easy access across the borders. Come
to think of it, it's pretty easy for Joe Citizen to cross. A quick
inspection(or maybe not if you don't look suspicious and/or the guards
see you come by at the same time everyday).
Remember that the idea is that it's difficult for Shadowrunners to
move around in. Just time-consuming for everyone else :)
Other than that, I assume what keeps it going is the same thing
that keeps any sprawl going- life, liberty, and the pursuit of cred.
I should probably post this question under a different Subline, but
if anyone answers they can do it anyways: Has Shadowrunners
successfully been able to cross the borders? Any good ideas or stories?
I think my PCs went to Denver once, and that was only for a brief time
and they only traveled in the UCAS and CAS regions- for the sake of
simplicity for everyone, I just assumed that things were extra-keen
between the two countries and border checks were next to non-exsistant.



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I
hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee..."
-Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet(Act I, scene I)


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 54
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:47:50 -0500
CALMON PEDRO MARANHAO <calmpm1@*************.NICH.EDU> wrote:
>From what I understood, most
>corporations avoided placing major manufacturing and research
>facilities on the place because of the political volatility of the
>city, plus the fear of espionage.

I don't get this impression from the books. I've lived in Denver, though,
and it's not really known for manufacturing at the present time, either.
There is some research, but nothing like, say silicon valley. Denver was
founded on mining, but currently it's main industry seems to be
telecommunications and other tertiary industry. The political climate in
FASA's Denver seems even more suited for these purposes. If you look in the
discussion of each section, you get this impression as well.

>Also, due to the fact that all
>different sectors ofthe city are kind of "isolated" from one another,
>it is unlikely that Denver stayed as a major trade center.

_Officially_, this is true. In reality, it is not at all.

> So, my
>question is: What in the hell keeps that place running???? I mean, if
>people actually live their, they must earn their wages out of
>something. For a city that big, I simply cannot imagine it being
>capable to sustain itself without being a major industrial or
>finance/trading center.

Two reasons. The first is tertiary industries like software and so on,
which are pretty big money makers, especially in 2058. Second, as the
Denver books mention repeatedly: the shadow market.

At first glance, this seems foolish. How could a shadow market support that
many people? The answer is that Denver makes most shadow markets look like
Arctic trading posts. The Denver shadow market has four main advantages
over other shadow markets:

1) Scale. You don't buy a gun on the Denver shadow market, you buy
truckloads of guns. This is a shadow market on a _much_ larger scale than
other places. Also, since legal trade can't really happen in Denver, often
goods that would not be shadow goods need to be smuggled. For example, for
a Sioux store to get, say, oranges, it might need to buy a shipment from
someone in the CAS sector.

2) Infrastructure. Smuggling is intrenched into Denver. Everyone knows that
it tends to be the only way to get goods. As a result, the law is much more
lenient about smuggling than in other places. The only time law really
cares is if you smuggle something extremely illegal. In Denver, there is a
huge difference between black market and shadow market.

3) Locatation, location, location. Denver connects a very large number of
political entities in a small space and sits at a central position,
geographically, to most of them.

4) Profit. Any good on the shadow market is transferred without taxing of
any kind. Since smuggling is so common, the cost of smuggling is very low
and the risk is extremely reduced. If you are a UCAS computer manufacturer,
and want to sell in the Ute, you would be foolish to use any method of
shipping other than though Denver.

Wordman

"The big cities of America are becoming Third World countries."
-- Nora Ephron
Message no. 55
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 14:01:44 PST
Wordman wrote:
[snip, all good points]
>Two reasons. The first is tertiary industries like software and so on,
>which are pretty big money makers, especially in 2058. Second, as the
>Denver books mention repeatedly: the shadow market.
[snip some more]

You forgot one of the bigger things in the 'shadow market' of Denver:
In the SR world, Captain Chaos lives and operates from Denver(and hence
the Shadowland BBS), IIRC. Of course, he may just be saying that... :)
But since the borders are so tight, it would make since that the
majority of the shadow-talent in FRFZ(at least the talent that develops
a rep of any kind) would be that of the decking variety.
Not to slight the other kinds of runners, mind you... but the shadows in
Denver are about this big(> <) and so it really does test ones
mettle(or metal :)


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I
hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee..."
-Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet(Act I, scene I)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 56
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Denver
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:00:15 -0500
Vagabond
> You forgot one of the bigger things in the 'shadow market' of Denver:
> In the SR world, Captain Chaos lives and operates from Denver(and hence
> the Shadowland BBS), IIRC.

Yes, the Nexus. Good point.

Another thing that just occurred to me is that with a shadow market of that
large a scale, the number of, oh, let's use the term dickheads, shall we,
is a lot more than in other shadow markets. By dickhead I mean people who
welch on deals, squeal, sell shoddy product, and other amaturish stuff.

Wordman
Message no. 57
From: DragonC147@***.com DragonC147@***.com
Subject: Denver
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:39:38 EST
Hi all,

I have a question about the UCAS City of Denver. I have heard rumors that it
was a Bug City, much like chicago. Is this true?

Dragon Claw
Message no. 58
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Denver
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:53:08 -0500
From: <DragonC147@***.com>
> I have a question about the UCAS City of Denver. I have heard
rumors that it
> was a Bug City, much like chicago. Is this true?

Not at all. Denver is more like WWII Berlin; it's not even a UCAS
city. It's been divided into 6 chunks [IIRC], Pueblo, UCAS, CAS,
Aztlan, UTE, and someone else, unless I'm a moron. Which I very well
may be.

In any case, no, it's not chock full of bugs.

Speaking of which, does anyone else wonder what happened to the other
cities worldwide that got seriously infested? Does anyone even
remember them?

______________________________________________________________________
"God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the
miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind
of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos: He will set them
above their betters." - H.L. Mencken
Message no. 59
From: LOSLOBOS5@***.com LOSLOBOS5@***.com
Subject: Denver
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:00:44 EST
Nope. It just has ties with six different countries, spies and security from
all six and then some, plenty of organized crime influence, whacked out
Native Americans, the Nexus, some powerful free spirits, smugglers galore,
plenty of gangs, Azzies, Souix, CAS and others, Corporate influence, 38%
Metahumans, and some outrageous tax laws.

Who needs bugs!!!

Los Lobos
Message no. 60
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Denver
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:30:38 -0500
At 03:53 PM 2/25/00, abortion_engine wrote:
>From: <DragonC147@***.com>
> > I have a question about the UCAS City of Denver. I have heard
>rumors that it
> > was a Bug City, much like chicago. Is this true?
>
>Not at all. Denver is more like WWII Berlin; it's not even a UCAS
>city. It's been divided into 6 chunks [IIRC], Pueblo, UCAS, CAS,
>Aztlan, UTE, and someone else, unless I'm a moron. Which I very well
>may be.
>
>In any case, no, it's not chock full of bugs.
>
>Speaking of which, does anyone else wonder what happened to the other
>cities worldwide that got seriously infested? Does anyone even
>remember them?

IIRC, the line that they were using was that several cities had
infestations to varying degrees. Ares was waging its own little war against
them, with the help of at least some parts of the UCAS government. Of all
the nests found, none was so big that it could not be destroyed.
Unfortunately, Chicago went a little too long, and Ares didn't have enough
juice. Read Burning Bright, as it details not only the Chicago situation,
but also makes several mentions of their other bug-killing operations.

In short, there were others that happened, but they were killed because
they weren't big enough.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 61
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Denver
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:39:35 -0500
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
> IIRC, the line that they were using was that several cities had
> infestations to varying degrees. Ares was waging its own little war
against
> them, with the help of at least some parts of the UCAS government.
Of all
> the nests found, none was so big that it could not be destroyed.
> Unfortunately, Chicago went a little too long, and Ares didn't have
enough
> juice. Read Burning Bright, as it details not only the Chicago
situation,
> but also makes several mentions of their other bug-killing
operations.

Burning Bright barely mentioned anything about the other cities. The
only person who'd have had anything to say about it would have been
Anne, and I don't remember her mentioning much, if anything, to Kyle.

Bug City is the only book I'm aware of that mentioned the other
cities, like, if I recall, Boston, St. Petersburg, some middle east
location, etc. I'll check when I'm around the books again.

> In short, there were others that happened, but they were killed
because
> they weren't big enough.

Erm, I don't know about that.

______________________________________________________________________
The Devil is an angel just like everyone else. - ae
Message no. 62
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Denver
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:03:56 -0500
At 04:39 PM 2/25/00, abortion_engine wrote:
>From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
> > IIRC, the line that they were using was that several cities had
> > infestations to varying degrees. Ares was waging its own little war
>against
> > them, with the help of at least some parts of the UCAS government.
>Of all
> > the nests found, none was so big that it could not be destroyed.
> > Unfortunately, Chicago went a little too long, and Ares didn't have
>enough
> > juice. Read Burning Bright, as it details not only the Chicago
>situation,
> > but also makes several mentions of their other bug-killing
>operations.
>
>Burning Bright barely mentioned anything about the other cities. The
>only person who'd have had anything to say about it would have been
>Anne, and I don't remember her mentioning much, if anything, to Kyle.
>
>Bug City is the only book I'm aware of that mentioned the other
>cities, like, if I recall, Boston, St. Petersburg, some middle east
>location, etc. I'll check when I'm around the books again.

There was something in there about one of the guys from Ares talking about
their other efforts at killing the bugs. It could have been Bug City, but
I'm almost positive that it was Burning Bright. Maybe a section where the
head of Knight Security is talking to someone about how the battles are going.

> > In short, there were others that happened, but they were killed
>because
> > they weren't big enough.
>
>Erm, I don't know about that.

I meant that the nest wasn't big enough, not the bugs themselves. The other
hives were smaller, so Ares had an easier time flushing them.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 63
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Denver
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 11:59:35 +0100
According to DragonC147@***.com, at 15:39 on 25 Feb 00, the word on the
street was...

> I have a question about the UCAS City of Denver. I have heard rumors that it
> was a Bug City, much like chicago. Is this true?

Denver was divided between five countries (Aztlan, Pueblo Corporate
Council, Sioux Nation, UCAS, and Ute Nation) by the treaty that ended the
war between the NAN and the USA & Canada. The UCAS then gave part of its
sector to the CAS when they split off, leading to a city that's a bit like
Berlin during the Cold War, except with six walls instead of one, and it's
relatively easy to go from one sector to the other (most of the time).

Denver has the added drawback of being governed by a committee made up
from all six countries, who have equal votes -- so nothing important ever
gets done, because in most cases it's a 3 against 3 vote.

The situation has also given rise to plenty of smuggling, because it's so
easy to do in a place like this -- all you need is to find an easy way to
cross the border, and you can stash stuff that's illegal in one sector, in
another where it is allowed, so you can take it across as needed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 64
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Denver
Date: Sun Aug 12 21:10:01 2001
How valuable a resource is the Denver boxed set, how much would you
recommend that someone get it?
Message no. 65
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Denver
Date: Mon Aug 13 01:10:01 2001
Bryan Pow writes:

> How valuable a resource is the Denver boxed set, how much would you
> recommend that someone get it?

I would have said "not very", but with YotC once again turning focus towards
Denver, it might be really worth picking up.

It is extremely detailed, almost to the point of being too much information
for a GM to handle if they were wishing to run there. OTOH, if you were
looking to run a campaign there, it would be excellent, as it is chocked full
of cool ideas and run starters. OTOH, much of this may or may not be
terribly relevent now that the situation in Denver has, er, altered somewhat
:-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 66
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Denver
Date: Mon Aug 13 05:45:14 2001
According to Bryan Pow, on Mon, 13 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> How valuable a resource is the Denver boxed set, how much would you
> recommend that someone get it?

For a campaign set in Denver (at least prior to YOTC, and probably also
after it if you tweak it a little), IMHO it's a very good set, as you get a
LOT of source material for your money. If you just want to do the
occasional run in Denver, but have the main campaign located elsewhere, you
probably won't need it, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Denver, you may also be interested in:

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