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Message no. 1
From: Jod <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:06:23 +0100
Hya,

Dermal Armor and Spirits, that's what my question is about. What do they
have in common? absolutely nothing. It are two seperate questions anyway. ;)

1)Dermal armor, if I understand correct, gives the player an extra dice to
use in damage resistance tests equal to it's lvl. However, I think I've seen
references that it's also used as _armor_. Maybe I'm hallucinatin' or
something, but ....

2)Spirits. Am I correct that spirits summoned by a Shaman cannot engage in
combat? in the critters section, they do not have any combat statistics. So,
what's the use of summoning one of the strong spirits of the Land? They have
less powers, but higher strength. But what do I need the strength for?

Hmm, that's it for now,

CU'round,

Jod
chatin@*******.nl

'Oops, so much for a live arrest.'
-Yuri.
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:46:58 -0700
Jod wrote:
/
/ 2)Spirits. Am I correct that spirits summoned by a Shaman cannot engage in
/ combat? in the critters section, they do not have any combat statistics. So,
/ what's the use of summoning one of the strong spirits of the Land? They have
/ less powers, but higher strength. But what do I need the strength for?

Here's a quick house rule. Spirits and Elementals use their
Quickness in place of unarmed combat. When attacking they do StrM
damage. The damage is either physical or stun, depending on the
spirit and the whim of the GM at the time. Hope that helps. :)

Also, I've seen variations on the theme. Using Reaction instead of
Quickness. Increasing or decreasing the damage code based on the
elemental or spirit. Etc.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:23:53 EST
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:46:58 -0700 David Buehrer writes:

>Here's a quick house rule. Spirits and Elementals use their
>Quickness in place of unarmed combat. When attacking they do StrM
>damage. The damage is either physical or stun, depending on the
>spirit and the whim of the GM at the time. Hope that helps. :)

In SR-I, the spirits were given attack values, which paralleled those for
elementals.
I'll go dig up my copy and post them if anyone's interested.

>Also, I've seen variations on the theme. Using Reaction instead of
>Quickness. Increasing or decreasing the damage code based on the
>elemental or spirit. Etc.

Which is a good idea, given that Reaction is what critters generally use
to attack.
(You also get more dice to roll, usually. Especially so with things like
INSECT SPIRITS, when some have Reactions that are multiples of their
force.)

~Tim
Message no. 4
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:05:38 -0500
At 12-Nov-97 wrote Jod:


>1)Dermal armor, if I understand correct, gives the player an extra dice to
>use in damage resistance tests equal to it's lvl. However, I think I've seen
>references that it's also used as _armor_. Maybe I'm hallucinatin' or
>something, but ....

Dermal armor is used in the way you said.
Dermal sheeting from CT has a limited armor rating and acts as dermal armor,
its the improved version of DA at last.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
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that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
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Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:36:48 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-12 12:48:01 EST, you write:

> 1)Dermal armor, if I understand correct, gives the player an extra dice to
> use in damage resistance tests equal to it's lvl. However, I think I've
seen
> references that it's also used as _armor_. Maybe I'm hallucinatin' or
> something, but ....

First, Dermal Plating actually, adds dice to the damage resistance test ...
Orthoskin adds armor to a person instead ... the first one is cyberware ..
the second is bioware.

> 2)Spirits. Am I correct that spirits summoned by a Shaman cannot engage in
> combat? in the critters section, they do not have any combat statistics.
So,
> what's the use of summoning one of the strong spirits of the Land? They
have
> less powers, but higher strength. But what do I need the strength for?

Spirits do damage normally like a person, (Strength)M stun.

They have their Force as their "Threat" rating, and their skill in attacking
someone in unarmed combat is equal to their Reaction plus their Threat
rating.

Mike
Message no. 6
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:47:54 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-12 14:52:02 EST, you write:

> / 2)Spirits. Am I correct that spirits summoned by a Shaman cannot engage
in
> / combat? in the critters section, they do not have any combat statistics.

> So,
> / what's the use of summoning one of the strong spirits of the Land? They
> have
> / less powers, but higher strength. But what do I need the strength for?
>
> Here's a quick house rule. Spirits and Elementals use their
> Quickness in place of unarmed combat. When attacking they do StrM
> damage. The damage is either physical or stun, depending on the
> spirit and the whim of the GM at the time. Hope that helps. :)
>
> Also, I've seen variations on the theme. Using Reaction instead of
> Quickness. Increasing or decreasing the damage code based on the
> elemental or spirit. Etc.

I like using the method given for invae spirits in Bug City ... they use
Reaction plus Threat rating for the number of attack dice to roll ...

Also, anyone have a fav bug spirit ... mine are Beetle Spirits ... especially
this one annoying force 12 Beetle spirit that Binder-in-the-Dark (Keith) has
never really gotten rid of ...

Mike
Message no. 7
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:09:26 +0100
>1)Dermal armor, if I understand correct, gives the player an extra dice to
>use in damage resistance tests equal to it's lvl. However, I think I've seen
>references that it's also used as _armor_. Maybe I'm hallucinatin' or
>something, but ....

In my game, <HOUSE RULE> I interverted modifiers from dermal armor and
those from orthoskin because I estimate dermal acts more as an armor than
an increase of the body resistance. </HOUSE RULE>

>2)Spirits. Am I correct that spirits summoned by a Shaman cannot engage in
>combat? in the critters section, they do not have any combat statistics. So,
>what's the use of summoning one of the strong spirits of the Land? They have
>less powers, but higher strength. But what do I need the strength for?

Spirits can attack. If you don't have combat statistics, just use (F)M as
the damages and the spirit's reaction as the skill. In astral, all spirits
do (F)M damage (astral section of SR2). And, the use of summoning one of
the strong spirits of the land is that spirits are bound to their domain.
So, if you're in a prairie, you'll only be able to summon a prairie spirit.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:49:07 +0100
Jod said on 18:06/12 Nov 97...

> Dermal Armor and Spirits, that's what my question is about. What do they
> have in common? absolutely nothing. It are two seperate questions anyway. ;)
^^
"They" :) Engels heeft een meervoud van "het"...

> 1)Dermal armor, if I understand correct, gives the player an extra dice to
> use in damage resistance tests equal to it's lvl. However, I think I've seen
> references that it's also used as _armor_. Maybe I'm hallucinatin' or
> something, but ....

Dermal plating adds to the user's Body rating; the only point where it is
used like armor is when you fire at it with flechette ammo: the dermal
plating removes the +1 Damage Level modifier of these rounds against a
target that is otherwise unarmored.

> 2)Spirits. Am I correct that spirits summoned by a Shaman cannot engage in
> combat? in the critters section, they do not have any combat statistics. So,
> what's the use of summoning one of the strong spirits of the Land? They have
> less powers, but higher strength. But what do I need the strength for?

There has been much debate over this. There are, basically, three schools
of thought:

1) They cannot attack at all;
2) They can attack, and use (str)M Stun as their Damage Code just like
metahumans;
3) Their Damage Codes are the same as those of elementals of the
corresponding type. (This was the way first-edition SR handled nature
spirit attacks.)

Until FASA makes a ruling about this (consider this as a request for
SR3's magic rules, Mr. Kenson :) it's up to the GM to decide which way to
follow. If you choose #1, spirits still have a use in combat, as they have
all these funky powers: use Accident to let the enemy trip and lose an
action, Alienate an enemy to effectively take him or her out of the fight,
and so on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what if we're making a scene now?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 9
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:44:18 GMT
Mike Bobroff writes
> >
> > Also, I've seen variations on the theme. Using Reaction instead of
> > Quickness. Increasing or decreasing the damage code based on the
> > elemental or spirit. Etc.
>
> I like using the method given for invae spirits in Bug City ... they use
> Reaction plus Threat rating for the number of attack dice to roll ...
>
The principal problem i found with this was power escalation, it
rappidly reached a stage where the gun using mundanes were utterly
useless against spirits magicians could slaughter. Or the bug ges
first roll z zillion dice and PC dies. (thankfully the latter didn't
happen).

Bugs are fun in moderation, i pulled te plug on them when the players
started getting creative with insecticide before it just became a
power war with two possible outcomes, bugs became free target
practice, or i pushed the force ratings to a point where the bugs
went first and killed everything before it moved. (solution - use
something else instead)

> Also, anyone have a fav bug spirit ... mine are Beetle Spirits ...
I have a liking for ants :)

> especially
> this one annoying force 12 Beetle spirit that Binder-in-the-Dark (Keith) has
> never really gotten rid of ...
>
Yuck!
(though i belive Tinners got a force 30 queen somewhere)

The nastiest thing i ever used was a force 10 spirit energy 5 queen
ant, after which i decided to stop before it became a war of power
escalation to the detriment of all.

In moderation bugs are wonderful things but once the players get used
to them and the 'oh my frag whats that!!' settles down try something
else.

Mark
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:01:24 -0700
Tim Cooper wrote:
/
/ On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:46:58 -0700 David Buehrer writes:
/
[snip: how do spirits attack?]
/
/ >Also, I've seen variations on the theme. Using Reaction instead of
/ >Quickness. Increasing or decreasing the damage code based on the
/ >elemental or spirit. Etc.
/
/ Which is a good idea, given that Reaction is what critters generally use
/ to attack.
/ (You also get more dice to roll, usually. Especially so with things like
/ INSECT SPIRITS, when some have Reactions that are multiples of their
/ force.)

Oops, I forgot that that's a house rule of mine. I prefer to use the
Quickness stat in place of unarmed combat for critters. It's just a
matter of taste :)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:21:41 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-13 02:00:06 EST, AirWisp@***.COM writes:

>
> I like using the method given for invae spirits in Bug City ... they use
> Reaction plus Threat rating for the number of attack dice to roll ...
>
> Also, anyone have a fav bug spirit ... mine are Beetle Spirits ...
> especially
> this one annoying force 12 Beetle spirit that Binder-in-the-Dark (Keith)
has
> never really gotten rid of ...
>
> Mike
>
Okay, I get the hint...maybe a reprieve from the Winternight Wars on the
Arctic would be in order...but no one else would even want to come along,
except for the other half of the group that is off galavanting through the
Metaplanes.

-K
Message no. 12
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:55:00 GMT
on 12.11.97 chatin@*******.NL wrote:

c> 1)Dermal armor, if I understand correct, gives the player an extra dice to
c> use in damage resistance tests equal to it's lvl. However, I think I've
c> seen references that it's also used as _armor_. Maybe I'm hallucinatin' or
c> something, but ....

The only time dermal armor works as armor is against shotgun shells. It
negates the +1 damage.

^

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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Message no. 13
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:02:47 -0500
And thus Mark spaketh ...

> > especially this one annoying force 12 Beetle spirit that
Binder-in-the-Dark (Keith)
> has never really gotten rid of ...
> >
> Yuck! (though i belive Tinners got a force 30 queen somewhere)

Thank God ... someone else who believes in something with that high of a
force rating .. someone quick .. pass some vaseline to the pcs who have to
take care of the Queen ...

> The nastiest thing i ever used was a force 10 spirit energy 5 queen
> ant, after which i decided to stop before it became a war of power
> escalation to the detriment of all.

I have fond memories of using a free Force 10, Energy 6 Wasp Queen against a
one of the former sets of pcs for the group ... the group was down right
frightened when the thing moved faster than the spirit pc (and she was
manifest to boot) ...

> In moderation bugs are wonderful things but once the players get used
> to them and the 'oh my frag whats that!!' settles down try something
> else.

I do agree, anything really powerful should be used in moderation and only to
give the players a reality check when they are getting really big heads ...

Mike
Message no. 14
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:42:06 -0500
At 01:02 AM 11/18/97 -0500, Mike Bobroff wrote these timeless words:
>And thus Mark spaketh ...
>
>> > especially this one annoying force 12 Beetle spirit that
>Binder-in-the-Dark (Keith)
>> has never really gotten rid of ...
>> >
>> Yuck! (though i belive Tinners got a force 30 queen somewhere)
>
>Thank God ... someone else who believes in something with that high of a
>force rating .. someone quick .. pass some vaseline to the pcs who have to
>take care of the Queen ...
>
Hehe... take care of it? Hah! Bull and Johnny were able to knock down
the fragging Ares Building on top of it, but we couldn;t even dent the fucker!

BTW, for those of you familiar with the queen... She just popped back up...

Johnny 99's player, Rusty, is running a game now for Tinner, myself, and
another friend. I'm playinga Troll Ganger named Conan (With sword, though
he's just turned into a Crow Shamanic Adept of some kind:)), Tinner is a
Phys Ad Ganer, and the other guy is a Rigger (former Corp Rigger).

We were hired to escort someone across country via motorcycle, named
Michael (And played exactly like the character from the movie by the same
name, the lame one with Travolta). Turned out later that he was really
harlequin (I REALLY hate that damned elf) and that he was hunting the
queen... <shudder>

Anyways... It was indeed a Force 30 Wasp Queen...

>I do agree, anything really powerful should be used in moderation and only to
>give the players a reality check when they are getting really big heads ...
>
That's why I REALLY like mixing the bugs up a bit...

Free Bug Spirits are wonderful things... As is teh Shared Willpower thing
with the queens, and other fun stuff... PLus, have fun with the flesh
forms... EVer seen a Troll/Wasp Fleshform? A full, armored troll with
working Wasp wings... Much fun :]

Bugs can be a great plot device... But they do get old after a while...

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

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Message no. 15
From: Spideymon <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:55:20 -0600
Mike Bobroff wrote:
>
> And thus Mark spaketh ...
>
> > > especially this one annoying force 12 Beetle spirit that
> Binder-in-the-Dark (Keith)
> > has never really gotten rid of ...
> > >
> > Yuck! (though i belive Tinners got a force 30 queen somewhere)
>
> Thank God ... someone else who believes in something with that high of

I love to lob force 50 Great form fire elementals at them and watch the
group's mage squirm as his water elementals are uttterly destroyed
waithin five minutes.Then, the Spiser shaman conjures up a force 100
nature spirit(after lots of karma and drain,that conjuring force +100
really did help;).
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dermal Armor and Spirits.
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:25:57 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-18 18:28:54 EST, elfman@*****.net writes:

>
> I love to lob force 50 Great form fire elementals at them and watch the
> group's mage squirm as his water elementals are uttterly destroyed
> waithin five minutes.Then, the Spiser shaman conjures up a force 100
> nature spirit(after lots of karma and drain,that conjuring force +100
> really did help;).
>
>
(strange sound of throat clearing in the background)...."...what did you
say??? Force What???? Oh God, what have I agreed too...." (spoken by
Binder, who in a fit of disgust, destroys the foci in question....)

_k (I just had to do that)

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