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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Tue Oct 30 14:05:01 2001
Just wondering how you guys view these dermal deposits on trolls. Are
they bone deposits attached only to skin? Bone spurs protruding from the
skin layer? Are they everywhere or only in certain areas (joints, limbs,
over large mucles, over organs)?

SR3's a little vague on them... what do you think?

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Melina York)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Tue Oct 30 18:05:01 2001
From: BD <l3oondocker@*****.com>


> Just wondering how you guys view these dermal deposits on trolls. Are
>they bone deposits attached only to skin? Bone spurs protruding from the
>skin layer? Are they everywhere or only in certain areas (joints, limbs,
>over large mucles, over organs)?
>
> SR3's a little vague on them... what do you think?


Dermal deposits have an obviously direct impact on a troll's appearance. For
that reason, I've allowed how dermal deposits appear to be determined by the
player, as long as the distribution of deposits were enough to account for
the +1 body that they give (some people I've played with also view the
deposits as being responsible for a troll's -2 to charisma). One player (the
troll was Mr. Big) said his deposits were bony build-up inside skin layers,
creating a bumpy appearance everywhere, with greater build-up on the torso,
and head (which also featured horns and tusks).

In our campaign however, most players choose to play troll variants that do
not have the bony dermal deposits - one plays a minotaur, one played a
giant. They don't like that trolls have a "warty" appearance. Playing an
inherently ugly race is sometimes a difficult thing, especially in a
campaigns that feature a lot of social interaction.

Here's a question: what would a troll with dermal deposits and the "human
looking" edge look like? What would the deposits be on a troll like that?

Pete
player, GM, and general SR addict
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Wed Oct 31 13:45:03 2001
> Here's a question: what would a troll with dermal deposits and the "human
> looking" edge look like? What would the deposits be on a troll like that?
>
> Pete
> player, GM, and general SR addict

According to the Companion, the edge isn't available to trolls.
Considering the differences, it's a sensible rule, I think.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Wed Oct 31 16:45:01 2001
l3oondocker@*****.com writes:
> According to the Companion, the edge isn't available to trolls.
> Considering the differences, it's a sensible rule, I think.

...'the edge' in this case being 'Human-Looking'. I disagree, on the other
hand, and would allow it; this lets a troll's dermal deposits to be a lot
more smoothed out, so you wind up having a 9' 'Arnold Schwartzenegger' thug.
People are still intimidated or a little twitchy, but the character just
looks like 'a really big guy' instead of 'Grond the Indestructable' with
horns, warts, bone spurs, etc.

Yes, there's often still a penalty, but the knee-jerk 'Race Enemy!' reaction
is toned down a lot.



The Wyrm Ouroboros
'Half Russian mathemetician,
half Silicon Valley code freak.'
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Simon and Fiona Fuller)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Wed Oct 31 19:50:01 2001
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of WyrmOuroboros@***.com
Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2001 7:45
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: Re: Dermal Deposits


>l3oondocker@*****.com writes:
>> According to the Companion, the edge isn't available to trolls.
>> Considering the differences, it's a sensible rule, I think.

>...'the edge' in this case being 'Human-Looking'. I disagree, on the other
>hand, and would allow it; this lets a troll's dermal deposits to be a lot
>more smoothed out, so you wind up having a 9' 'Arnold Schwartzenegger'
thug.
>People are still intimidated or a little twitchy, but the character just
>looks like 'a really big guy' instead of 'Grond the Indestructable' with
>horns, warts, bone spurs, etc.

>Yes, there's often still a penalty, but the knee-jerk 'Race Enemy!'
reaction
>is toned down a lot.


Trolls aren't simply tall and muscular, they're big. Shoulders as broad as
two human men, heads the size of your computer monitor, hands like cow
udders. Plus, there aren't a lot of 9 foot tall people. The few around in
the 2060s probably get hassled as trolls all the time anyway.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Wed Oct 31 19:50:03 2001
> l3oondocker@*****.com writes:
> > According to the Companion, the edge isn't
available to trolls. Considering the differences,
it's a sensible rule, I think.
>
> ...'the edge' in this case being 'Human-Looking'. I
disagree, on the other hand, and would allow it; this
lets a troll's dermal deposits to be a lot more
smoothed out, so you wind up having a 9' 'Arnold
Schwartzenegger' thug. People are still intimidated
or a little twitchy, but the character just looks like
'a really big guy' instead of 'Grond the
Indestructable' with horns, warts, bone spurs, etc.
>
> Yes, there's often still a penalty, but the
knee-jerk 'Race Enemy!' reaction is toned down a lot.
> The Wyrm Ouroboros

Rubbish. No offence, but rubbish. :)

The tallest human ever recorded (in the modern age, of
course) was, what, just under 9', right? And the
tallest basketball players are around 8'? Okay, so
imagine your average troll, at well over 9' tall and
somewhere in the vicinity of half a ton in weight (or
a ton, if you use more realistic weighting rules (are
those yours, Patrick?)). And don't forget the horns,
unless those have been cut away. No matter how
"human-looking" and smooth the dude's skin is, people
are going to figure out he probably ain't human. If
you make him a VERY SMALL troll, maybe, but personally
I wouldn't allow that. If he's a very small troll, he
ain't a troll, he's an ork. Part of the deal with
playing a troll is dealing with the drawbacks that
their extreme size gives them. If you wanna be a
troll, you gotta take the good with the bad. Me, I
allow a troll's player to decide how much and how
visible their dermal deposits and horns and the like
are (although if they want to go all smooth, they run
the risk of loosing the benefits the dermal deposits
provide), but there's still no way anyone but a blind
or completely ignorant person could mistake a troll
for anything but a troll.

IMNSHO, of course.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Wed Oct 31 22:25:01 2001
>Rubbish. No offence, but rubbish. :)
>The tallest human ever recorded (in the modern age, of
>course) was, what, just under 9', right? And the
>tallest basketball players are around 8'? Okay, so
>imagine your average troll, at well over 9' tall and
>somewhere in the vicinity of half a ton in weight (or
>a ton, if you use more realistic weighting rules (are
>those yours, Patrick?)). And don't forget the horns,
>unless those have been cut away. No matter how
>"human-looking" and smooth the dude's skin is, people
>are going to figure out he probably ain't human. If
>you make him a VERY SMALL troll, maybe, but personally
>I wouldn't allow that. If he's a very small troll, he
>ain't a troll, he's an ork. Part of the deal with
>playing a troll is dealing with the drawbacks that
>their extreme size gives them. If you wanna be a
>troll, you gotta take the good with the bad. Me, I
>allow a troll's player to decide how much and how
>visible their dermal deposits and horns and the like
>are (although if they want to go all smooth, they run
>the risk of loosing the benefits the dermal deposits
>provide), but there's still no way anyone but a blind
>or completely ignorant person could mistake a troll
>for anything but a troll.
>IMNSHO, of course.

Ok....maybe I'm just being "humanish" but I don't let the trolls get any
bigger than 8' tops, I use the simple logic of this. The average troll
starts off life as a human and then "goblinizes" around puberty. This
in itself is enough to rationalize that the troll isn't going to be
OVERLY large. This isn't to say that they're not going to be massive
just not as huge as you guys are letting on. I usually have the average
troll running about 7'-7'8" and they usually run around 400-650lbs
depending on their body attribute. I'll generally debate the weight and
height with the player depending on what they're going for and what the
strength and body attributes are. Let me know if I'm the only one
treating trolls in this manner or where I'm ignoring the rules from so I
can modify the game that we're running in cause I'd really like to stick
within a reasonable range of the rules.

Derek
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Thu Nov 1 01:45:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> Ok....maybe I'm just being "humanish" but I don't
let the trolls get any bigger than 8' tops, I use the
simple logic of this. The average troll starts off
life as a human and then "goblinizes" around puberty.
This in itself is enough to rationalize that the troll
isn't going to be OVERLY large.

I don't see why that's so, but...(see below)

> This isn't to say that they're not going to be
massive just not as huge as you guys are letting on.
I usually have the average troll running about 7'-7'8"
and they usually run around 400-650lbs depending on
their body attribute. I'll generally debate the
weight and height with the player depending on what
they're going for and what the strength and body
attributes are. Let me know if I'm the only one
treating trolls in this manner or where I'm ignoring
the rules from so I can modify the game that we're
running in cause I'd really like to stick within a
reasonable range of the rules.
> Derek

The problem, Derek, is that you're working from an
incorrect assumption. Early on, trolls and orks
goblinised a lot. As those troggies matured, though
(and believe me, with 40-50 year life spans, there are
PLENTY who are mature by 2050-60), more and more began
to be born troll or ork, from troll and ork parents.
It's now stated that goblinisation is fairly rare -
most troggies are born that way.

Anyway, there aren't any "character generation rules"
for sizes of the various races, but it has always said
that the average troll in 9' or more in height. We
won't get into the weights, because that's been proven
to be really wrong, considering the way trolls are
portrayed (almost like really tall dwarfs - broad,
squat and muscular).

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

____________________________________________________________
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all media adventure before November 3rd.
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Simon and Fiona Fuller)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Thu Nov 1 04:50:00 2001
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Derek Hyde
Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2001 1:23
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: RE: Dermal Deposits



>>Ok....maybe I'm just being "humanish" but I don't let the trolls get any
>bigger than 8' tops, I use the simple logic of this. The average troll
>starts off life as a human and then "goblinizes" around puberty. This
in itself is enough to rationalize that the troll isn't going to be
OVERLY large. This isn't to say that they're not going to be massive
just not as huge as you guys are letting on. I usually have the average
troll running about 7'-7'8" and they usually run around 400-650lbs
depending on their body attribute. I'll generally debate the weight and
height with the player depending on what they're going for and what the
strength and body attributes are. Let me know if I'm the only one
>treating trolls in this manner or where I'm ignoring the rules from so I
>can modify the game that we're running in cause I'd really like to stick
>>within a reasonable range of the rules.

First of all, play your games however you want. The mark of a good GM in my
book is one who will happily throw the rules out the window if he doesn't
like them.
After the initial rash of Goblinisation, most metas are born meta. It is
very rare for a human to change in "current" times. As for the gain in mass,
assume it is an effect of magic, a sort of permanent Transformation
Manipulation ("Whenever something like that happens, a wizard did it", as
Lucy Lawless said).
I can't see it as just you who underestimates the size of trolls. After all,
most of the art draws trolls as not much bigger than orks. A dozen pictures
against a single line of text in the race description.
I don't have the third edition rules, so I can't point to specific sections,
sorry.
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Thu Nov 1 09:00:01 2001
>First of all, play your games however you want. The mark of a good GM
in my
>book is one who will happily throw the rules out the window if he
doesn't
>like them.
>After the initial rash of Goblinisation, most metas are born meta. It
is
>very rare for a human to change in "current" times. As for the gain in
>mass,
>assume it is an effect of magic, a sort of permanent Transformation
>Manipulation ("Whenever something like that happens, a wizard did it",
as
>Lucy Lawless said).
>I can't see it as just you who underestimates the size of trolls. After
>all,
>most of the art draws trolls as not much bigger than orks. A dozen
pictures
>against a single line of text in the race description.
>I don't have the third edition rules, so I can't point to specific
>sections,
>sorry.


Well I generally chalk up the body mass to the fact that their muscle
density is something akin to the tigers and other great cats. Those
things aren't a whole lot bigger than we are but easily weigh around
400lbs without even being full grown so.......
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Thu Nov 1 14:40:04 2001
Derek Hyde writes:
[Charset Windows-1252 unsupported, skipping...]


--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Thu Nov 1 14:55:01 2001
Derek Hyde writes:

> Ok....maybe I'm just being "humanish" but I don't let the trolls get any
> bigger than 8' tops, I use the simple logic of this. The average troll
> starts off life as a human and then "goblinizes" around puberty. This in
> itself is enough to rationalize that the troll isn't going to be OVERLY
> large. This isn't to say that they're not going to be massive just not as
> huge as you guys are letting on. I usually have the average troll running
> about 7'-7'8" and they usually run around 400-650lbs depending on their
> body attribute. I'll generally debate the weight and height with the
> player depending on what they're going for and what the strength and body
> attributes are. Let me know if I'm the only one treating trolls in this
> manner or where I'm ignoring the rules from so I can modify the game that
> we're running in cause I'd really like to stick within a reasonable range
> of the rules.

Well, while I may not completely agree with your reasoning, I do experience
the same effect quite often. I think that we, as 6' humans, find it
difficult to imagine a 10' Troll. We don't really consider that when
everyone jumps in the back of the Bulldog van, the Troll has to squat to fit
inside. It's easy to forget, I guess, when it's not something you're
familiar with. Far too often in my games, Trolls get off easy because both
myself and my players forget the HUGE factor more often than we should.

As for your reasoning, it's a little flawed in that, for example, by your
logic all humans would only be slightly larger than babies... They start of
as 1' babies, so they couldn't get to be bigger than around 2'... There's
nothing in the books that says a Troll that Goblinises suddenly goes from a
6' human to a 10' Troll overnight. Goblinisation usually happens around
puberty, ie, before the person is fully grown anyway. They've got years of
growth left in them (up to 10!), and with accelerated growth due to being a
Troll, they could probably end up 10' without too much problems by the time
they finish growing. Besides, most Trolls are born that way now, so there's
definitely no problem with growing to be 10' that way.

The books do have an average height for Troll that's around 2.8 m, I think.
That's a little over 9'. So, I guess you're a little off in your heights at
least. As for weights, I remember that the book has something crazily low
like 225 kg (around 500 lb) as the average for a Troll. Sensibly (check
Patrick's rules), Trolls ought to weigh around half a ton (about 1100 lb).
I've calculated heavily cybered beefcake Trolls to be upwards of a ton using
Patrick's rules - that's around 2500 lb!

One thing we do remember in our games is a Trolls weight. We usually forget
their height, but we always tend to remember that the rear shocks on the van
scrape whenever to Troll merc hops into the goon mobile... <grin>

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Thu Nov 1 15:00:01 2001
BD writes:

> Just wondering how you guys view these dermal deposits on trolls. Are
> they bone deposits attached only to skin? Bone spurs protruding from the
> skin layer? Are they everywhere or only in certain areas (joints, limbs,
> over large mucles, over organs)?

Er, we often forget them a little, actually ;-). When we consider them, we
usually imagine them to be like hard bony growths in the skin, or patches of
skin that are 'reinforced' by additional material (you know how warts are
quite hard? well imagine a 10 cm wart that had porous bone disks a couple of
mm thick and a centimeter or so in diameter scattered through it).

I don't tend to imagine them as bone spurs. Is there any precident for doing
so?

As for distribution, pretty much anywhere at random, but fairly homogenously
scattered over the whole body. I'd say that they might cover around 20% of
the bodys surface.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Thu Nov 1 20:20:01 2001
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
>I think that we, as 6' humans, find it
>difficult to imagine a 10' Troll. We don't really consider that when
>everyone jumps in the back of the Bulldog van, the Troll has to squat to
>fit
>inside.

9' ceilings are pretty standard (I think), so a troll would be scraping
their heads in most places. Look up at the ceiling, that's how big a troll
is. Wow.

Normal doors are 2 1/2 feet by 6 1/2 feet. That would be awkward for a
troll, I think.

Jane



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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chipeloi)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Thu Nov 1 20:20:04 2001
In the asylum, Simon and Fiona Fuller whispered in the corridors:
>
> >>Ok....maybe I'm just being "humanish" but I don't let the trolls
get
> >>any
> >bigger than 8' tops, I use the simple logic of this. The average
> >troll starts off life as a human and then "goblinizes" around
> >puberty. This
> in itself is enough to rationalize that the troll isn't going to be
> OVERLY large.

As a lot of ppl have pointed out they don't goblenize anymore (wel
not often)

Trolls are Huge, they are called that in manny books if you read
any edition you wil see that they are around 3 meters tall thats
Huge in my book.
And then factor in the strenght and body pluss you get 2 arnie's
pressed into one but the same shoulder lenght of the two.

My "famous" troll caracter was left out some times becose the
adventure sayed that some openings (ventilations, sewers) are to
small for trolls (looking at a ventilation shaft 1(.5) meters by 1(.5)
meters .. ya thats a bit small for a troll)

>SNIP<

> A dozen pictures against a single line of text in the race
> description. I don't have the third edition rules, so I can't point to
> specific sections, sorry.

Geeees if you belive the pictures then orcs ar no bigger than dwarfs
(the picture of the orc detective) Realy don't believe everything you
see


>>>Wo you calling troggie's? you humanist, wait til i get my shovel
sized hands around your neck, it wil give a new meaning to the
word Red neck !<<<<<<

--
>If you thought Chipeloi was crazy just wait till you meet me !
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Thu Nov 1 22:10:01 2001
> > Yes, there's often still a penalty, but the
> > knee-jerk 'Race Enemy!' reaction is toned down a lot.
>
> Rubbish. No offence, but rubbish. :)
>
> The tallest human ever recorded (in the modern age, of
> course) was, what, just under 9', right? And the
> tallest basketball players are around 8'? Okay, so
> imagine your average troll, at well over 9' tall and
> somewhere in the vicinity of half a ton in weight (or
> a ton, if you use more realistic weighting rules (are
> those yours, Patrick?)).

Choose your expressions wisely, my (very large) son. And reflect on your
arguement before answering. To wit:

You have very good points, and all of these are excellent reasons for a
prejudiced chap to recognize El Monstro as a troll. However, we should
examine what we've just said, which begins with the word 'reasons'. Reasons
mean reasoning; a thought-process that starts with 'he's 9' tall', goes along
to 'he's 5' wide' and ends up with 'he's probably a troll'. However, we
aren't speaking of reasoning; we're speaking of prejudices, which are akin to
proper reasoning the way water is akin to fire. Prejudices are pre-judging,
making up your mind about someone as a result of their appearance and your
previous interactions with (or education about) individuals of that type.
The 'archetype' of trolls normally contains the following:

very tall
very broad
bumpy skin/bone spurs
tusks (up-jutting teeth from the lower jaw)
horns, at least one and often multiple

Now, posit: 'Edge: Human Looking'. Remove the tusks, the horns, and smooth
the nodules or bone spurs out so that the skin doesn't look like the owner
had rolled around in toads and gotten warts all over the place. What do you
have? Very tall, very broad, but someone who LOOKS like a very tall, very
broad human. The gut prejudice reaction fails on 3 out of 5 items (or 4 out
of 6, if you count 'slurred speech' which is removed with the tusks) -- which
means that initial reactions against the 'human-looking troll' are going to
be more in his favor.

> ... but there's still no way anyone but a blind
> or completely ignorant person could mistake a troll
> for anything but a troll.

Figure out? Duh, of course not. This isn't a matter of 'figure out',
though, this is a matter of reaction and prejudice. Make Arnold or Sly the
size they (figuratively) seem to be in the movies, and while you may be
somewhat fearful, you won't be as fearful of them as you'd be of a monster
demon with tusks, horns, and warts.

In short, it isn't 'rubbish'; it's reaction. *grins* Sort of like your
'rubbish' commentary. Remember, the prejudice rules are rules for gut-level
reaction, and someone who's big-but-human will have a lesser gut-level
reaction than someone who's big-and-monstrous. IMO, take off one or two
points on the 'prejudice' scale for those with the 'Human Looking' Edge, at
least for the first encounter.

> IMNSHO, of course.
> Doc'

YMMV. ;)


The Wyrm Ouroboros
'Half Russian mathemetician,
half Silicon Valley code freak.'
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Fri Nov 2 00:20:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> In short, it isn't 'rubbish'; it's reaction. *grins*
Sort of like your 'rubbish' commentary. Remember, the
prejudice rules are rules for gut-level reaction, and
someone who's big-but-human will have a lesser
gut-level reaction than someone who's
big-and-monstrous. IMO, take off one or two points on
the 'prejudice' scale for those with the 'Human
Looking' Edge, at least for the first encounter.
>
> > IMNSHO, of course.
> > Doc'
>
> YMMV. ;)
> The Wyrm Ouroboros

Mmmm...

Good points.

But in all honesty, I simply don't believe a 1 point
edge could be that effective. Elves look like tall,
skinny humans. Orks look like tall, muscular and ugly
humans. Trolls look like monstrously big humanoids.
Now if you charged 2 or 3 points for that flaw for a
troll to take it, yeah, that'd work better.

I still wouldn't allow it myself, though. Trolls as a
race have features which make them obviously
non-human. The edge itself represents those members of
the race which are NATURALLY close enough to human
features and proportions to pass as humans (and I
don't think that any troll would realistically fit
that definition), or (possibly?) who've been
cosmetically modified to appear human (and there's
only so much cosmetic surgery can do). As you said,
though, YMMV.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Fri Nov 2 13:25:01 2001
> In short, it isn't 'rubbish'; it's reaction. *grins* Sort of like your
> 'rubbish' commentary. Remember, the prejudice rules are rules for
> gut-level
> reaction, and someone who's big-but-human will have a lesser gut-level
> reaction than someone who's big-and-monstrous. IMO, take off one or two
> points on the 'prejudice' scale for those with the 'Human Looking' Edge,
> at least for the first encounter.

If I were going to allow this edge for trolls, I'd definitely charge a
couple more points for it. The differences that you're scaling back are so
much more extreme than the other races... elves, make 'em a bit rounder in
the face and give less of a point to the ears - Human Looking! You're
doing much more to the troll to get him/her 'pretty.' :)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Fri Nov 2 13:30:01 2001
> Good points.
>
> But in all honesty, I simply don't believe a 1 point
> edge could be that effective. Elves look like tall,
> skinny humans. Orks look like tall, muscular and ugly
> humans. Trolls look like monstrously big humanoids.
> Now if you charged 2 or 3 points for that flaw for a
> troll to take it, yeah, that'd work better.

Doc-man, we gotta network better... I just wrote the same response and
now your post comes floatin' by... making mone look derivative.
Unoriginal. Uninspired. Thanks fer nothin'.

> I still wouldn't allow it myself, though. Trolls as a
> race have features which make them obviously
> non-human.

I still don't buy the size thing... people aren't as big as trolls are
written to be. They're not built like that... if they are, they're freaks,
and aren't going to avoid prejudice penalties. :) Besides, in the 2060s,
people are so much more open-minded; they'll say, "Hey, he's not a freak,
he's just unnaturally big and really wide with huge hands and arms. He's a
troll, guys. GET HIM!"

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Sat Nov 3 05:45:01 2001
[Rand Ratinac] writes:

> But in all honesty, I simply don't believe a 1 point
> edge could be that effective. Elves look like tall,
> skinny humans. Orks look like tall, muscular and ugly
> humans. Trolls look like monstrously big humanoids.
> Now if you charged 2 or 3 points for that flaw for a
> troll to take it, yeah, that'd work better.

Maybe if the Edge wasn't called "Human Looking", but instead "Smooth
Troll"
or something, then it would be OK with 1 point. It wouldn't make a Troll
look like a human, but it might take away much of the "brutishness" of their
appearance...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Sun Nov 4 20:50:01 2001
> > But in all honesty, I simply don't believe a 1
point edge could be that effective. Elves look like
tall, skinny humans. Orks look like tall, muscular and
ugly humans. Trolls look like monstrously big
humanoids. Now if you charged 2 or 3 points for that
flaw for a troll to take it, yeah, that'd work better.

Oops. I said flaw. Idiot.

;)

> Doc-man, we gotta network better... I just wrote
the same response and now your post comes floatin'
by... making mone look derivative. Unoriginal.
Uninspired. Thanks fer nothin'.

Hey, it's not my fault. I wrote this WAY last week.
Blame the system. ;)

> > I still wouldn't allow it myself, though. Trolls
as a race have features which make them obviously
non-human.
>
> I still don't buy the size thing... people aren't
as big as trolls are written to be. They're not built
like that... if they are, they're freaks, and aren't
going to avoid prejudice penalties. :) Besides, in
the 2060s, people are so much more open-minded;
they'll say, "Hey, he's not a freak, he's just
unnaturally big and really wide with huge hands and
arms. He's a troll, guys. GET HIM!"
> -Boondocker

Which is pretty much how I see it. Reaction bonuses
and penalties like the racial ones aren't just about
someone's "gut reaction" on seeing you, they're about
the gut reactions they have during an encounter. It's
not just a snap "Oh, he's huge, wide, muscular, but
not all ugly and warty, so he must be human"-thing,
it's a "Oh, he's huge, wide, muscular, but not all
ugly and warty, so he must be human...hmmmm...no,
wait, he's a troll!"-thing. IMO. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Sun Nov 4 21:15:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> Maybe if the Edge wasn't called "Human Looking", but
instead "Smooth Troll" or something, then it would be
OK with 1 point. It wouldn't make a Troll look like a
human, but it might take away much of the
"brutishness" of their appearance...
> Damion Milliken

But would that get you a troll with smooth skin, or a
troll that looked like John Travolta, had slicked hair
that he spent days grooming, wore flares, strutted
down streets and danced weirdly to nasty music? ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Dermal Deposits
Date: Mon Nov 5 04:20:00 2001
On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Rand Ratinac wrote:

>
> But would that get you a troll with smooth skin, or a
> troll that looked like John Travolta, had slicked hair

oh my god...John Trollvolta? I can SEE the charecter description....
please make it go away...

--
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Debi Newberry: You're a psychopath.
Martin Blank: No, no. Psychopaths kill for no reason.
I kill for *money*. It's a *job*. That didn't come out right.
- Gross Point Blank

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