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Message no. 1
From: Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:24:49 +1000
K doth quoth:
>That is actually a strange thing. In theory, nothing. In function, perhaps
>something entirely different. The SCIRE is quite probably the most powerful
>computer system, short of the *ENTIRE* PCC Network on planet earth in 2060
>time. Deus is the hardware control for that system now.
>
>If he could find someplace else to go, then he could probably do so. But
>he'd need something with a lot of processing space.

Knowing the influences of Shadowrun [afterall, the Deep Resonance smells
somewhat like the spirits of the machine in Count Zero... but i digress], I
can't help but think of Deus undergoing 'rapture' as the
Wintermute/Neuromancer entity does at the end of Mona Lisa Overdrive.

As far as the 'debate' about the Goals of Deus are concerned, it is
probably worthwhile remembering that AIs are complete inhuman. To apply
human constructs of 'goals' and 'motivation' to an AI seems pointless (to
me). The best I think you can do is to apply some evolutionary sociology to
it/AIs. Thats assuming the AIs were evolved; if they're not, then its
possible they *will* evolve and such sociology can be applied.

Not that evolutionary sociology is a particularly respected field, but its
worthwhile for this kind of stuff at least.

care,
s.

---
| some is good : more is better |

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---
Message no. 2
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:09:07 EDT
In a message dated 6/19/99 10:25:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hbiki@****.geocities.com writes:

<< Knowing the influences of Shadowrun [afterall, the Deep Resonance smells
somewhat like the spirits of the machine in Count Zero... but i digress], I
can't help but think of Deus undergoing 'rapture' as the
Wintermute/Neuromancer entity does at the end of Mona Lisa Overdrive. >>


Findley was well known to introduce Gibson fiction elements into SR.
Afterall, Thomas Roxborough (sp?), a character destroyed in the wretched DHS,
was right out of Count Zero. With his influence, I don't doubt that Hume was
inspired to align it as such.





Twist
Message no. 3
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:09:47 CST
>
>Findley was well known to introduce Gibson fiction elements into SR.
>Afterall, Thomas Roxborough (sp?), a character destroyed in the wretched
>DHS,
>was right out of Count Zero. With his influence, I don't doubt that Hume
>was
>inspired to align it as such.

Makes sense, Gibson did invent the whole cyberpunk genre. And besides, he's
a good read. :)
>
>Twist
>
>
Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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Message no. 4
From: Quindrael D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:26:35 +0200
>Makes sense, Gibson did invent the whole cyberpunk genre.

And please, nobody start a "he did not" thread...

VrGr David

"Sobald der Mensch in der Lage ist künstliches Leben zu erzeugen,
ist die Theorie von Gott hinfällig."
(In Strict Confidence - CD-booklet of Cryogenix)

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Message no. 5
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:46:45 -0400
"Stuart M. Willis" wrote:

> As far as the 'debate' about the Goals of Deus are concerned, it is
> probably worthwhile remembering that AIs are complete inhuman. To apply
> human constructs of 'goals' and 'motivation' to an AI seems pointless (to
> me).

Deus's original programming and decision making capabilities were
written by humans, therefore it seems likely that Deus goals and
motivations should be understandable in some part to humans. Unless,
of course, The original AEP was replaced with a totally new and
foreign construct, which would then make the debate of his mobility
moot. :)

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:43:19 -0500
> >Findley was well known to introduce Gibson fiction elements into SR.
> >Afterall, Thomas Roxborough (sp?), a character destroyed in the wretched
> >DHS, was right out of Count Zero. With his influence, I don't doubt
> >that Hume was inspired to align it as such.
>
> Makes sense, Gibson did invent the whole cyberpunk genre. And
> besides, he's a good read. :)

No, he didn't (if anyone "invented" cyberpunk, it was Bruce Bethke), and no,
he's not (he's possibly the worst SF writer I've seen in the past 15 years).

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:43:20 -0500
> >Makes sense, Gibson did invent the whole cyberpunk genre.
>
> And please, nobody start a "he did not" thread...

Oops. Too late.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 21:12:44 EDT
In a message dated 6/19/99 7:40:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
iridios@*********.com writes:


some spoiler space, just for the heck of it







> Deus's original programming and decision making capabilities were
> written by humans
Yeah, this is why I figure Deus is still going under his original program (or
what he considers to be his)
Morgan is unpredictable, she was random, her programming consisting only of
a multi-platform S-K, same with Psych, it was also designed as multiplatform.
(Btw, in teh chat, Mike said that originally Deus and Psych were on eand
the same, Lisa Smedman turned in a Psychotrope novel that was different than
the original premise)
Deus was programmed to be part of the arc, he was constructed to never
leave. He was also programmed to run the arc efficiently (which he sure is
doing, if them darn Red Sams would leave him in peace)
What else was he programmed for? to advance humans? protect and serve?
<shrug> he is really following his program, through his own warped (nay,
insane) interpretation.
To save humanity, he must find thresholds by torturing everybody inside the
arc?
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:14:29 EDT
In a message dated 6/19/1999 10:10:43 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

>
> Findley was well known to introduce Gibson fiction elements into SR.
> Afterall, Thomas Roxborough (sp?), a character destroyed in the wretched
DHS,
>
> was right out of Count Zero. With his influence, I don't doubt that Hume
> was
> inspired to align it as such.

Ah yes, the Findley, Hume, Charrette, Dowd age.....
-K
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:49:59 EDT
In a message dated 6/19/1999 8:13:51 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Schizi@***.com writes:

> What else was he programmed for? to advance humans? protect and serve?
> <shrug> he is really following his program, through his own warped (nay,
> insane) interpretation.
> To save humanity, he must find thresholds by torturing everybody inside
> the
> arc?
>
There is line in a movie, that I'm going to paraphrase here...

"...what the cost worth if you find a Cure for Cancer if you have to kill a
few people along the way..."

-K
Message no. 11
From: Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 02:28:05 +1000
From: Geoffrey Haacke <knight_errant30@*******.com>

>Makes sense, Gibson did invent the whole cyberpunk genre. And besides, he's
>a good read. :)

he didn't invent it (this is canonical fact, deal with it) - he just
popularised it. which in other circles would make him the devil. :-) or
appear to be the creator of the genre.

hmm. well i suppose you can argue that by popularising the 'elements' that
constitute 'cyberpunk' he turned a collection of writers and stories into a
'genre' and a 'movement'.

so really its correct and incorrect on a number of levels. and we can leave
it at that. :-) unless you want to argue that it wasn't gibson who
popularised it, but rather bruce sterling. and you'd probably be right too.

but its all kind of moot, cause all kind of analysing of styles/genres in
any artistic field resolves and proves nothign and is open to endless
debate that can never ever be resolved.

[not that i'm saying gibson isn't the devil ;-)]

care,
s.

---
| individuality is a disability : religion the miracle cure |

dangermedia assassin: http://www.dangermedia.org
the net is not a tv [duh]: http:/www.dangermedia.org/nntv/
associate director, dump huck industries: http://www.dumphuck.com
difficult music for difficult minds: http://www.dumphuck.com/dms/

ICQ: 4340513
mailto:hbiki@***********.org
---
Message no. 12
From: Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 03:44:39 +1000
>There is line in a movie, that I'm going to paraphrase here...
>
>"...what the cost worth if you find a Cure for Cancer if you have to kill a
>few people along the way..."
>
>-K

There is a line in an episode of Duckman which I'm going to quote here:

"Cancer is a dream come true. "

[in fact that whole scene is incredibly fun and i have got a .aiff copy if
anyone wants me to .mp3 it :-)]

In other words, there is more money to be made in *treating* cancer than
there is in curing it. So what makes you think anyone is going to put
serious capital into curing it? :-)

Maybe I'm just too cynical, been reading murder cases non-stop for the past
three days. Nah...

care,
s.

Actually it could serve as an awesome evil gm mission! a health care {1}
company hires the shadowrunners to kill the cure for cancer :-) especially
if you incorporate some nice evil twists.

{1} "I'm not in the health business, Mr Duckman, I'm in the health *care*
business. The more beds I fill, the more profits I make".

---
| individuality is a disability : religion the miracle cure |

dangermedia assassin: http://www.dangermedia.org
the net is not a tv [duh]: http:/www.dangermedia.org/nntv/
associate director, dump huck industries: http://www.dumphuck.com
difficult music for difficult minds: http://www.dumphuck.com/dms/

ICQ: 4340513
mailto:hbiki@***********.org
---
Message no. 13
From: grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:25:59 -0400
Stuart M. Willis wrote:
>
> >There is line in a movie, that I'm going to paraphrase here...
> >
> >"...what the cost worth if you find a Cure for Cancer if you have to kill a
> >few people along the way..."
> >
> >-K
>
> There is a line in an episode of Duckman which I'm going to quote here:
>
> "Cancer is a dream come true. "
>
> [in fact that whole scene is incredibly fun and i have got a .aiff copy if
> anyone wants me to .mp3 it :-)]
>
> In other words, there is more money to be made in *treating* cancer than
> there is in curing it. So what makes you think anyone is going to put
> serious capital into curing it? :-)
>
> Maybe I'm just too cynical, been reading murder cases non-stop for the past
> three days. Nah...


As much as I'm going to regret it in the future, think back to Johnny
Mnemonic. A Megacorpse has the cure for a disease that is killing off
half the pop[ulation of the world, and they'd rather destroy it then
have it leaked. It makes more sense in a purely economical way to treat
the disease rather then cure it.

I'm now going to go flog myself for remembering that... film (for lack
of a better word) exists.
>
> care,
> s.
>
> Actually it could serve as an awesome evil gm mission! a health care {1}
> company hires the shadowrunners to kill the cure for cancer :-) especially
> if you incorporate some nice evil twists.
>
> {1} "I'm not in the health business, Mr Duckman, I'm in the health *care*
> business. The more beds I fill, the more profits I make".
>
> ---
> | individuality is a disability : religion the miracle cure |
>
> dangermedia assassin: http://www.dangermedia.org
> the net is not a tv [duh]: http:/www.dangermedia.org/nntv/
> associate director, dump huck industries: http://www.dumphuck.com
> difficult music for difficult minds: http://www.dumphuck.com/dms/
>
> ICQ: 4340513
> mailto:hbiki@***********.org
> ---

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia
Datastore 8 - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Maze/1673/
Message no. 14
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:09:15 EDT
In a message dated 6/20/99 11:51:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

>
> "...what the cost worth if you find a Cure for Cancer if you have to kill
a
> few people along the way..."
my thoughts exactly :-)
Message no. 15
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:08:31 +0100
Twist quoth:

"Makes sense, Gibson did invent the whole cyberpunk genre. And besides, he's
a good read. :)"

<shudder> Not another one...No, no, and thrice no - Gibson did *not* invent
Cyberpunk -
admittedly, he's (IMO) prolly the best current exponent of it, but various authors (Dick,
Brunner)
would roll in their graves at that rather rash statement...I can quote bibliographies if
necessary...but enough of such smalltalk...a kiss, milady! <wibble>

obSRun: Otaku! Bless you.....

J.
Message no. 16
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:13:53 +0100
>>And please, nobody start a "he did not" thread...

Doh! Bastard monday mornings, relaxing my netiquett reflexes... ;-((

Anyway, onto pastures more verdant:

Graht sed:
>>My real point is, would it be possible to create an AI within a virtual
>>computer existing within a RL computer? RL computers have hardware
>>limitations, but a virtual computer would only be limited by the
>>algorithms/math/etc used to create it.

Ah, but the performance of those algorithms would be limited by the capabilities
of the RL computer. The VR computer's capabilities, are, by definition a subset of
the RL computer.

Otherwise, I'd use my ZX81 to emulate a PIII-550Mhz.....

J.
Message no. 17
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:30:38 -0400 (EDT)
On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Iridios wrote:

> "Stuart M. Willis" wrote:
>
> > As far as the 'debate' about the Goals of Deus are concerned, it is
> > probably worthwhile remembering that AIs are complete inhuman. To apply
> > human constructs of 'goals' and 'motivation' to an AI seems pointless (to
> > me).
>
> Deus's original programming and decision making capabilities were
> written by humans, therefore it seems likely that Deus goals and
> motivations should be understandable in some part to humans. Unless,
> of course, The original AEP was replaced with a totally new and
> foreign construct, which would then make the debate of his mobility
> moot. :)
>
I agree with Iridios, there is no reason whatsoever that Deus wouldn't
have goals that we could figure out. MAybe his goals wouldn't make sense
(ie Deus is taking over the Arcology because he dislikes large buildings)
but in no way is that not something that could be discovered through
research.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 18
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:20:23 -0500
On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.net>
writes:
<SNIP>
>I agree with Iridios, there is no reason whatsoever that Deus wouldn't
>have goals that we could figure out. MAybe his goals wouldn't make
sense
>(ie Deus is taking over the Arcology because he dislikes large
buildings)
>but in no way is that not something that could be discovered through
>research.

I think the idea is that Deus would several goals that are discoverable
that don't make sense. Then, there might a greater goal (or goals) that
can't be discovered short of hacking Deus until more "steps" are
revealed. It's not a matter of IF everyone else can figure out his
goal(s) but WHEN. Can you take the scraps available now and make the
logical leap to Deus' plans or do you have to wait for more clues?

Heh. You know, if RA:S occured because someone wanted to test Deus'
failsafes ... OOPS! :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Vampires have an oral fixation"

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Message no. 19
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:48:55 -0400
At 11:49 AM 6/20/99 , Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 6/19/1999 8:13:51 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>Schizi@***.com writes:
>
>> What else was he programmed for? to advance humans? protect and serve?
>> <shrug> he is really following his program, through his own warped (nay,
>> insane) interpretation.
>> To save humanity, he must find thresholds by torturing everybody inside
>> the
>> arc?
>>
>There is line in a movie, that I'm going to paraphrase here...
>
>"...what the cost worth if you find a Cure for Cancer if you have to kill a
>few people along the way..."

That was on TNT this weeknd. It think it was called Unnecessary Measures,
and had Hugh Grant and Gene Hackman in it. The line was something like...

"...if you could cure cancer but killing just one person, well then,
wouldn't you just have to do that?"

(and at this point his partner tries to kill Hugh.)

It would make a good run, actually, to involve something like that. A
street doc is doing research on the homeless in the Barrens, and not being
very ethical about it. One of the runners is wounded and winds up there.
Does he becme the next victim, fighting his way out? Does he figure out
what's going on and try to stop it?

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 20
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:30:39 EDT
In a message dated 6/21/99 7:18:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
james@************.force9.co.uk writes:

<< Twist quoth:

"Makes sense, Gibson did invent the whole cyberpunk genre. And besides,
he's
a good read. :)"

<shudder> Not another one...No, no, and thrice no - Gibson did *not* invent
Cyberpunk -
admittedly, he's (IMO) prolly the best current exponent of it, but various
authors (Dick, Brunner)
would roll in their graves at that rather rash statement...I can quote
bibliographies if
necessary...but enough of such smalltalk...a kiss, milady! <wibble>

obSRun: Otaku! Bless you.....

J.

>>


Misquote. That wasn't I who said Gibson created cyberpunk. I just said that
Findley used stuff from Gibson's novels as inspiration for a lot of his
Shadowrun stuff. Someone quoted and me and inserted their "Gibson created
cyberpunk" line.
I haven't read enough cyberpunk to adequately judge, to be honest.






Twist
Message no. 21
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:33:31 EDT
In a message dated 6/21/99 9:49:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sommers@*****.umich.edu writes:

<< That was on TNT this weeknd. It think it was called Unnecessary Measures,
and had Hugh Grant and Gene Hackman in it. The line was something like...

"...if you could cure cancer but killing just one person, well then,
wouldn't you just have to do that?" >>


Extreme Measures. I thought the line was, "If you could cure cancer by
killing just one person, wouldn't you have to do that?"




Twist
Message no. 22
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:18:09 -0400
At 12:33 PM 6/21/99 , Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 6/21/99 9:49:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>sommers@*****.umich.edu writes:
>
><< That was on TNT this weeknd. It think it was called Unnecessary Measures,
> and had Hugh Grant and Gene Hackman in it. The line was something like...
>
> "...if you could cure cancer but killing just one person, well then,
> wouldn't you just have to do that?" >>
>
>
>Extreme Measures. I thought the line was, "If you could cure cancer by
>killing just one person, wouldn't you have to do that?"

Thanks. Thought it was something like that. I heard it enough over the
weekend...

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 23
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:40:23 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 dghost@****.com wrote:

> Heh. You know, if RA:S occured because someone wanted to test Deus'
> failsafes ... OOPS! :)
>
So far my favorite is the theory one ShadowRNer posted that Renraku is
actually using this as an excuse to do some research that wouldn't be
considered kosher otherwise, such as experimental cybernetic procedures on
live subjects. Sure it's costing them a lot of money now but they results
would allow Renraku's cybernetic and biotech divisions to leapfrog over
the other AAAs in the next 5-10 years.

I doubt this is actually happening but I really like the idea. Of course
who's to say that as Renraku regains control of the building, they don't
happen to find the data in the process?

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 24
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:53:30 CST
>From: James Dening <james@************.force9.co.uk>
><shudder> Not another one...No, no, and thrice no - Gibson did *not* invent
>Cyberpunk -
>admittedly, he's (IMO) prolly the best current exponent of it, but various
>authors (Dick, Brunner)
>would roll in their graves at that rather rash statement...I can quote
>bibliographies if
>necessary...but enough of such smalltalk...a kiss, milady! <wibble>
>
>obSRun: Otaku! Bless you.....
>
>J.


OK folks everyone calm down. I got that info from a magazine, I think it
was MacLean's. Enough with the corrections already! I get the point.
Sheesh!! :)

Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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Message no. 25
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: Deus and all that. :-)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:17:23 +0200
> Heh. You know, if RA:S occured because someone wanted to test Deus'
> failsafes ... OOPS! :)

"Don't worry folks - this is just a beta-test."

Or to quote Dick Jones, OCC (Robocop):
"I'm sure it's just a glitch. A temporary setback."

- Carsten

GC 3.1: GCS d- s+: a- C+++$>++++ UL+ P+>++ L+ E-- W+++$ N+ K- w+++$ O- M--
V- PGP- t++@ 5+@ X++ R++ tv+(+++) b+(++) DI++ D++ G e++ h--() r+++ y+++

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Deus and all that. :-), you may also be interested in:

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