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Message no. 1
From: Sandman <SANDS@******.JUNIATA.EDU>
Subject: Dice
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:47:34 -0500
>It can get messy for combat with the large amounts of dice, but it
>works really well for other tests without Dice pools like Electronics.
>I tend to think of it as the player exceding his normal capabilities.
>
> Nightfox
>
------------------------------

I love my Task Pool; yup, I do. Goes great with that Electronics.
(And Biotech, and B/R, and...) :)

: Jon Sands aka Sandman ^ "You disobeyed my direct order. :
: sands@******.juniata.edu ^ You placed yourself in grave danger. :
: Snail: 1168 Juniata College ^ I am _not_ happy." :
: Huntingdon, PA 16652 ^ -Capt. Picard, "Interface" :
: **** "He hits and... I think I'm going to need more dice..." **** :
Message no. 2
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:07:27 -0700
>I love my Task Pool; yup, I do. Goes great with that Electronics.
>(And Biotech, and B/R, and...) :)

I heartily agree - I LOVE task pools for Techy people

Nightfox
Message no. 3
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 13:36:16 -0600 (MDT)
Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
|
|David wrote:
|> John R. Wicker II wrote:
|> |
|> |It also brings up another question-- how much do GM's let their
|characters
|> |in on? Do you roll dice in front of them? Do you tell them the target
|number
|> |that the bad guys need? How is it handled by others?
|
|> I don't let them know what target numbers the bad guys
|> need. The players are pretty good at figuring out how many
|> dice I'm rolling by sound alone (rumble, rattle, crash...
|
|Well, our GM plays with his dice constantly, and sometimes
|rolls dice in bunches - generally you can't be sure if that
|large number of dice was one really good guy, a bunch of weenies,
|or just a GM trying to roll all sixes.

Cool idea. Thanks. Expect to receive some hatemail from my players ;)

|* We're using modified/differently interpreted karma pool rules.
|Our karma pool only increases if we get 10 karma at a shot. On
|the other hand, we can burn a good karma for the same effect as
|spending a point of pool.

Hmmm.... <ponder> And you and the other players don't mind *burning* good
karma for this?

And, in reference to the every 10th karma rule. Does anyone else do it this
way? A PC receives 18 karma and one point goes to the karma pool. The next
session the PC receives another 18 karma and one goes to the karma pool
again. I've always kept track of the running total of karma and in the
previous example the PC would put two karma into their pool for the second
award (having received a total of 36 karma).

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 4
From: Robert Blackberg III <blackbrc@***.fiserv.com>
Subject: Re: Dice -Reply
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 18:21:16 -0400
>>> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.org> - 7/22/96 2:36 PM >>>
>
>And, in reference to the every 10th karma rule. Does anyone else do
it this
>way? A PC receives 18 karma and one point goes to the karma pool.
The next
>session the PC receives another 18 karma and one goes to the karma
pool
>again. I've always kept track of the running total of karma and in
the
>previous example the PC would put two karma into their pool for the
second
>award (having received a total of 36 karma).
>
>-David

I have my players put every tenth point of the good karma they
recieve into their karma pool. They just keep a running total of
good karma they recieve with tick marks on their character sheet.
When there are nine marks the next point goes into the karma pool
instead of good karma.

Robert
Message no. 5
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: Dice -Reply
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:37:38 -0600 (CST)
Always keep a running total of player karma....this is very ipmortant when
dealing with fame and reputation.
Message no. 6
From: Wynd <jeltzz@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:35:31 +1000
David Buehrer wrote:

> And, in reference to the every 10th karma rule. Does anyone else do it this
> way? A PC receives 18 karma and one point goes to the karma pool. The next
> session the PC receives another 18 karma and one goes to the karma pool
> again. I've always kept track of the running total of karma and in the
> previous example the PC would put two karma into their pool for the second
> award (having received a total of 36 karma).

This is the way I do it. We keep track of total karma, and every tenth karma
point goes to the pool (though that pool karma point stays in the total count
for rep and stuff).


--
Wynd, the Zen-Taoist-Celtic Mystic-Poet-Philosopher-Warrior-Dude
<jeltzz@*******.com.au>
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jeltzz

"For I am known, | "The Ravens took flight,
As the Fallen One, | and the sky, just moments Winter's white
He-Who-Walks-Alone, | turned black, as if night had descended"
Under Star, Moon and Sun." | - Flight of the Ravens
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 7
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:45:08 +0200 (METDST)
On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

[Mucho snipped]

> And, in reference to the every 10th karma rule. Does anyone else do it this
> way? A PC receives 18 karma and one point goes to the karma pool. The next
> session the PC receives another 18 karma and one goes to the karma pool
> again. I've always kept track of the running total of karma and in the
> previous example the PC would put two karma into their pool for the second
> award (having received a total of 36 karma).

18 karma!?!!? Eighteen? Like 10 + 8 = 18? Hrmm, do you offer extensive
mellowing treatments to hardcore GM? I've a candidate ready, he sure need
some kind of introduction to that aspect of the world.
You know, psychic profile: hard but unfair :)

--
R,

Silhouette

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fae doer,
fraende doer,
selv doer jeg engang.
En ting ved jeg aldrig doer.
Dommen over doed mand.

- Havamaal
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Helge Diernaes | ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: acsehi@*****.ecol.klte.hu
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:48:10 +0000
Another method maintaning the karma pool:
I don't rememeber exactly, but I've made it the following
method: a runner receives 3 karma a running, the 1/10th of these
0.3, rounded up 1, and this incrase the karma pool. If this char.
receives 18 karma, the 1/10th 1.8, rounded up 2. Incrase the karma
pool 2.
Andras.
Message no. 9
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Dice -Reply
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 14:13:20 EST
I always split karma on a 90%-10% basis, but I do NOT round up/down
the numbers!!
Nobody has questions then, as 0.9 karma is no karma yet.
F.
Message no. 10
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 08:54:00 PDT
David wrote:
> Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
> |Well, our GM plays with his dice constantly, and sometimes
> |rolls dice in bunches - generally you can't be sure if that
> |large number of dice was one really good guy, a bunch of weenies,
> |or just a GM trying to roll all sixes.
> Cool idea. Thanks. Expect to receive some hatemail from my players ;)

Speaking of which, do you ever roll perception to check if
people are following them when you know they aren't? Botches
can be quite fun. :-)

> |* We're using modified/differently interpreted karma pool rules.
> |Our karma pool only increases if we get 10 karma at a shot. On
> |the other hand, we can burn a good karma for the same effect as
> |spending a point of pool.
>
> Hmmm.... <ponder> And you and the other players don't mind *burning*
good
> karma for this?

Well, we'd rather avoid it, but with only 2 pool (campaign
just started this summer, we've only earned ~50 good karma)
there's not much we can do except take cover.

> And, in reference to the every 10th karma rule. Does anyone else do it
this
> way? A PC receives 18 karma and one point goes to the karma pool. The
next
> session the PC receives another 18 karma and one goes to the karma pool

18 karma a run? I'd love that, assuming I'd survive. Usually
on our runs, we earn 4 karma and at least two characters have
taken either deadly stun or physical. Our GM says he'll give
us large karma-valued runs if we want, but they'll be
correspondingly more difficult. We've decided to wait on that.

> again. I've always kept track of the running total of karma and in the
> previous example the PC would put two karma into their pool for the
second
> award (having received a total of 36 karma).

We keep track of the running karma. It's the base for the
infamy TN, anyhow (you know, roll street etiquette vs.
(1000-TotalKarmaEarned)/50?).

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 11
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 08:57:00 PDT
> method: a runner receives 3 karma a running, the 1/10th of these
> 0.3, rounded up 1, and this incrase the karma pool. If this char.
> receives 18 karma, the 1/10th 1.8, rounded up 2. Incrase the karma
> pool 2.

0.3 rounded up is 1?

This method is just gross - build a character who can survive
lots of damage, accumulate the 1 karma point for surviving,
that point goes into your karma pool... Imagine getting
25% karma pool (for a 4-karma run). Wow.

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 12
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:22:21 -0600 (MDT)
Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
|
|18 karma a run? I'd love that, assuming I'd survive. Usually
|on our runs, we earn 4 karma and at least two characters have
|taken either deadly stun or physical. Our GM says he'll give
|us large karma-valued runs if we want, but they'll be
|correspondingly more difficult. We've decided to wait on that.

I've awarded 24 points before. Of course they had to fight
a wraith...

Want to know how to get more karma out of your GM without
tempting death? Read the section on awarding karma. Then
roleplay your character and go for the humor, drama, and
smarts awards (you can receive these awards more than once
in an adventure). One of my players once earned an
additional 8 karma from roleplaying, being smart, and
outwiting me.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 13
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:40:06 -0600 (MDT)
Helge Diernaes wrote:
|
|On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, David Buehrer wrote:
|
|[Mucho snipped]
|
|> And, in reference to the every 10th karma rule. Does anyone else do it this
|> way? A PC receives 18 karma and one point goes to the karma pool. The next
|> session the PC receives another 18 karma and one goes to the karma pool
|> again. I've always kept track of the running total of karma and in the
|> previous example the PC would put two karma into their pool for the second
|> award (having received a total of 36 karma).
|
|18 karma!?!!? Eighteen? Like 10 + 8 = 18? Hrmm, do you offer extensive
|mellowing treatments to hardcore GM? I've a candidate ready, he sure need
|some kind of introduction to that aspect of the world.
|You know, psychic profile: hard but unfair :)

Oh, I wouldn't say I'm mellow :) I've used bugs, wraiths,
dragons, cruise missiles, and stalking PMS crazed women.
I've screwed the characters over quite a few times (hired
unkowingly by one corp to trash another corp and then
double crossed). I've sent them to the astral plane,
physically. Sent them to Tir. Made them eat at a Stuffer
Shack. Caught them in a web of Dragon politics. Destroyed
their possesions (gotta love fire elementals). And to
finish my campaign they'll have the choice of saving or
destroying magic in SR. No, I wouldn't say I'm mellow at
all. I'm a GM that just wants to have fun.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 14
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:45:41 -0400
>Oh, I wouldn't say I'm mellow :) I've used bugs, wraiths,
>dragons, cruise missiles, and stalking PMS crazed women.
>I've screwed the characters over quite a few times (hired
>unkowingly by one corp to trash another corp and then
>double crossed). I've sent them to the astral plane,
>physically. Sent them to Tir. Made them eat at a Stuffer
>Shack. Caught them in a web of Dragon politics. Destroyed
>their possesions (gotta love fire elementals). And to
>finish my campaign they'll have the choice of saving or
>destroying magic in SR. No, I wouldn't say I'm mellow at
>all. I'm a GM that just wants to have fun.
>
>-David

Made them eat at a Stuffer Shack!! Now THAT is cruel :)
Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Message no. 15
From: "John R. Wicker II" <jrwick00@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Dice -Reply
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:48:54 -0400 (EDT)
At 04:37 PM 7/22/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Always keep a running total of player karma....this is very ipmortant when
>dealing with fame and reputation.

I love the smell of a forced piece of roll-playing in the morning...

>From the very beginning of SRII, I've felt that the entire karma pool system
was overwraught. In my game, if players had every tenth point of karma to
re-roll screw-ups and failures, they'd be the equivalents of Stonewall Main
Battle Tanks. Hence, the only karma pool my characters get is the team
karma, which already does wonders for their doctoring bills.

Another thing that I don't care for in great detail is the "reputation"
rating that comes with karma. As a GM, I can determine who knows what about
my characters much better than an arbitrary rating system. My players tend
to find themselves in the role of "world savers" from time to time, but its
not done in front of a trid camera. For example, they recently foiled an
Alamos 20K plot geared toward Amerind genocide. The only people that knew
what was really going on where the Alamos goons, the PC's, and a couple of
high mucky-muck NAN types. Suffice it to say that the Alamos goons won't be
telling anyone what happened.

Did the PC's save the world? Sure they did, because who knows where the
viral agent could have spread to, or how effective it would have been
against people with 1/4 Amerind blood, or even 1/16? Did they get a butt
load of karma? You bet your bippie they did. But does the average snoop in
Seattle know about it? How about the cabbie that picks them up at the
airport? Nah.

In other words, characters can be rated and given a reputation by the GM
without necisarily resorting to the reputation rule. The fact of the matter
is that my PC's dropped off the face of the earth for five years after the
above incident-- everyone thought they had died in the incident. Since then
they've been keeping a very low profile, but when it becomes "common" shadow
knowledge that they're back in town and doing fine, you can expect that
there'll be some interesting reactions... As to their repuation? Who knows
what their rating is? But as GM, I definitely know the score...


"If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Embrace the revolution!"
-A found poem, 1995

This mail brought to you by: John R. Wicker II
Free-lance writer, Full time student, Founder: The Jagged Edge, Inc.
E-mail: jrwick00@***.uky.edu
Message no. 16
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 09:55:00 PDT
David wrote:
> Want to know how to get more karma out of your GM without
> tempting death? Read the section on awarding karma. Then
> roleplay your character and go for the humor, drama, and
> smarts awards (you can receive these awards more than once
> in an adventure). One of my players once earned an
> additional 8 karma from roleplaying, being smart, and
> outwiting me.

Well, we do quite a bit of actual roleplaying (from the Ork
with Suprathyroid and Symbiotes who never stops eating to the
naive Elf Shaman from Tir na Nog), but I guess the GM doesn't
consider it extraordinary. Humour and drama we provide.
Smarts? Well, they're just beginner shadowrunners, so if we
roleplay them, they aren't going to be too smart.

As for outwitting the GM, that's really tough because he just
sets up the session by putting us in a situation, strewing
a few clues around the place, and then just gauging how
successful our attempts are. We *have* come up with some
interesting lines though...

I think a couple of bonus karma have been awarded, but not
often. This is definitely not a power campaign. In fact,
I'd say it's more interesting, because instead of getting
large amounts of karma and spending large amounts of karma,
we're getting small amounts of karma, and so spending small
amounts of karma (and keeping several in reserve to burn,
if need be).

This means that the characters don't really get to improve
any stats or skills that are already reasonably high unless
they really work at it (as well as roleplaying it sufficiently).

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 17
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: RE: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 14:43:00 PDT
---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes ---------------------------
From: owner-shadowrn@********.itribe.net at SMTPGATE
Date: 7/23/96 8:54AM
*To: ShadowRN@********.itribe.net at SMTPGATE
Subject: RE: Dice
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Text item:

>David wrote:
>> Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
>> |Well, our GM plays with his dice constantly, and sometimes
>> |rolls dice in bunches - generally you can't be sure if that
>> |large number of dice was one really good guy, a bunch of weenies,
>> |or just a GM trying to roll all sixes.
>> Cool idea. Thanks. Expect to receive some hatemail from my players ;)

>Speaking of which, do you ever roll perception to check if
>people are following them when you know they aren't? Botches
>can be quite fun. :-)

Yeah *grin*, I had a player who made his character really paranoid at
generation, more or less with the intention that this would result in
him never getting surprised/duped by employers etc. I was too busy
running the game (~8 players) to put this guy in check until he started
to annoy people. So I started giving him perception checks where he had
an increased chance of noticing possible "threats". The one botch was
hilarious: he blew away a 'mugger' only to find out later that he was
someone from the Salvation Army. Ended up getting hunted by the
Salvation Free Militia ;}

>> way? A PC receives 18 karma and one point goes to the karma pool. The
next
>> session the PC receives another 18 karma and one goes to the karma pool

>18 karma a run?

Worse, 18 Karma a *SESSION*...!!! I think you need to re-read the karma
awards thing again, chummer. I used to hand out 5-6 Karma during my
campaign, but that was roleplaying-intensive, there was one nightmare
of a run that took 3 sessions and they ended up getting between 7-9
Karma (depended on the player). 18 Karma is ridiculous, I've known
munchie games where the awards weren't that high. If you're using that
figure as a mathematical example please say so.

Seriously, I kept the team karma pool in check by rationalising it as
the benefits the team gets from a longstanding relationship of
co-operation, familiarity & trust. When some characters died and were
replaced by new characters, these criteria weren't met, so the Team
Karma Pool took a dive and/pr grew slowly.

I only allowed the use of the teman karma pool when there was a
substantial number of the team present >1/2.

Sam.

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Subject: RE: Dice
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Message no. 18
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:22:49 -0600 (MDT)
Richard M Conroy wrote:
|
|>18 karma a run?
|
|Worse, 18 Karma a *SESSION*...!!! I think you need to re-read the karma
|awards thing again, chummer. I used to hand out 5-6 Karma during my
|campaign, but that was roleplaying-intensive, there was one nightmare
|of a run that took 3 sessions and they ended up getting between 7-9
|Karma (depended on the player). 18 Karma is ridiculous, I've known
|munchie games where the awards weren't that high. If you're using that
|figure as a mathematical example please say so.

I hand out karma at then end of an *adventure*. And I go by the book: 1
karma per successful encounter, 1 karma per threat rating of highest
rated opponent, 0-2 karma for roleplaying, extra karma for
humor/drama/smarts/guts/rprt/etc. My adventures usually run about 10+
encounters, 4-6 Threat for the major NPCs, and I've got good
roleplayers. 18 karma is actually on the low end for my game. If I've
read something wrong please point it out to me.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 19
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 16:29:00 PDT
David wrote:
>I hand out karma at then end of an *adventure*.
^^^^^^^^^^^ [1]
>And I go by the book:

Which book is this ? The SR2 main rulebook, or some supplement that came
out since I've last read the SR stuff ?

>1 karma per successful encounter,
^^^^^^^^^
I seem to recall this meaning adventure/mission objective in my rules
ie 1 point for survival, 1 point for every successfully completed
objective (typically only 1-4 objectives per mission)

>1 karma per threat rating of highest rated opponent,

Never used threat ratings, they sucked compared with dice pools: I
always used NPC's with dice pools. Besides what if you faced a mission
where you were threatened with natural disaster/mob tactics(eg riot) ?

There's no highly rated "opponent" as such, even though the PC's faced
extreme danger, so by this logic they wouldn't get a proper reward that
reflected their situation. IMHO not an accurate award system.

I awarded Karma on a level that reflected an arbitrary threat level,
typically 1-3, 4 for exceptional nightmares.

>0-2 karma for roleplaying,

I always awarded this on an exceptional basis, although I always
awarded 1 point for players who stayed mostly in character, and who
did more than just use the dice. Additional points were awarded for
good roleplaying (above & beyond).

>extra karma forhumor/drama/smarts/guts/rprt/etc.

fair enough.

>My adventures usually run about 10+ encounters,

I see, and you are awarding 1 survival karma for each one successfully
overcome ? This is where your figures are getting crazy IMO.

>4-6 Threat for the major NPCs, and I've got good roleplayers.

I've already commented on what I think of Threat rating Based awards

>18 karma is actually on the low end for my game. If I've read something
>wrong please point it out to me.

It's this line that I most disagree with:

Previously you wrote:
:>The next session the PC receives another 18 karma
^^^^^^^ [1]

You corrected above [1] by saying that you awarded it by adventure,
which if these typically run to the order of 3-4 play sessions, then
your karma awards balance out somewhat, even if I don't like the way
you award some of it. But originally you said that you awarded per
session. This kind of leads to the following abuses:

1st session Firearms/Sorcery/Gunnery 6->7 (12 karma) R.6
2nd 7->8 (14 karma) R.10
3rd 8->9 (16 karma) R.12
4th 9->10 (18 karma) R.12

So after 4 sessions Max the munchkin has raised his main stat to
abusive levels, with the ability to furhter abuse it. I based costing
on current rating, not desired rating, I stand corrected if this is
not the case, even so my point still carries.

I'm not implying anything about your players, I'll take your word for
it about the standard of their roleplaying, but I just want to point
out the _typical_ consequences of awarding 18 karma/SESSION, and what
got me a bit riled in the first place... I tend to work at about 5-8
karma over every 2 sessions (average adventure length with my old group
(7-8+ hours/session).

Regards.

O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for though lies in the\\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick.\\ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 20
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:51:25 -0600 (MDT)
First, I never meant to imply that my way is the correct
way. I'm just saying that this is the way I do it as I
interpret the rules. If I'm way out of line in my
interpertation I would like to know so that I can correct
my error.

Richard M Conroy wrote:
|
|David wrote:
|
|>1 karma per successful encounter,
| ^^^^^^^^^
|I seem to recall this meaning adventure/mission objective in my rules
|ie 1 point for survival, 1 point for every successfully completed
|objective (typically only 1-4 objectives per mission)

Hmm. How do you (and anyone else) define "objective"? I've always
treated that the same as an encounter. I.e. if the characters make
through an encounter and have figured out what to do to move on to the
next encounter I give 'em a point for it.

|>1 karma per threat rating of highest rated opponent,
|
|Never used threat ratings, they sucked compared with dice pools: I
|always used NPC's with dice pools. Besides what if you faced a mission
|where you were threatened with natural disaster/mob tactics(eg riot) ?
|
|There's no highly rated "opponent" as such, even though the PC's faced
|extreme danger, so by this logic they wouldn't get a proper reward that
|reflected their situation. IMHO not an accurate award system.
|
|I awarded Karma on a level that reflected an arbitrary threat level,
|typically 1-3, 4 for exceptional nightmares.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this but haven't gotten around to
changing yet.

|>0-2 karma for roleplaying,
|
|I always awarded this on an exceptional basis, although I always
|awarded 1 point for players who stayed mostly in character, and who
|did more than just use the dice. Additional points were awarded for
|good roleplaying (above & beyond).

Ditto. Rarely do I hand out more than 1 karma for roleplaying.

|>18 karma is actually on the low end for my game. If I've read something
|>wrong please point it out to me.
|
|It's this line that I most disagree with:
|
|Previously you wrote:
|:>The next session the PC receives another 18 karma
| ^^^^^^^ [1]
|
|You corrected above [1] by saying that you awarded it by adventure,
|which if these typically run to the order of 3-4 play sessions, then
|your karma awards balance out somewhat, even if I don't like the way
|you award some of it. But originally you said that you awarded per
|session.

I hath mispoke mineself. When I wrote the word session I meant to say
adventure. My adventures usually run 4-6 sessions of 5-6 hours each
with a total of 10+ obstacles (I don't count obstacles which the PCs
create for themselves, unless they really learned something from it).

|I'm not implying anything about your players, I'll take your word for
|it about the standard of their roleplaying, but I just want to point
|out the _typical_ consequences of awarding 18 karma/SESSION, and what
|got me a bit riled in the first place... I tend to work at about 5-8
|karma over every 2 sessions (average adventure length with my old group
|(7-8+ hours/session).

I figure that I'm averaging 20 per adventure (5 6-hours sessions), 4
points per session, which looks to be about your maximum (actually a
little higher because my sessions are shorter). If I lower or drop the
Theat award I'll in the same ballpark. Gives me something to think
about.

Thanks,
-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 21
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 19:56:00 PDT
OK, this seesm to be sorting itself out a bit.

David wrote:
>|>1 karma per successful encounter,
>| ^^^^^^^^^
>|I seem to recall this meaning adventure/mission objective in my rules
>|ie 1 point for survival, 1 point for every successfully completed
>|objective (typically only 1-4 objectives per mission)

>Hmm. How do you (and anyone else) define "objective"? I've always
>treated that the same as an encounter. I.e. if the characters make
>through an encounter and have figured out what to do to move on to the
>next encounter I give 'em a point for it.

Well, that's a toughie, though I think the main book gives a pretty good
example: somethin along the lines of [a] thwarting the villains plans,
[b] stealing the dataloot/tech [c] but the villain got away or something
to that extent. Basically, these are seperate, key elements of the
adventure storyline, all of which represent a certain difficulty in
accomplishing, and therefore karma should be awarded for their
completion. In the above example, the villains obviously gave a good
fight, the data/tech would have required a lot of resources to find &
acquire, and the main villain was probably a very resourceful villain.

Your use of the word encounter seems to suggest combats, or encounters
with groups of opponents. Many objectives would certainly involve
combat,
but they can also be longterm. Encounter is a bit of a hangover term
from AD$D, IMHO so forgive the impression if it's false.

>I figure that I'm averaging 20 per adventure (5 6-hours sessions), 4
>points per session, which looks to be about your maximum (actually a
>little higher because my sessions are shorter). If I lower or drop the
>Theat award I'll in the same ballpark. Gives me something to think
>about.

OK I think we've got this karma/session ratio sorted. At the start of
my campaign my awards were about 4 or so per session, towards the end
of the campaign they were averaging higher (things were getting nasty,
roleplaying was picking up etc.). These are average figures, the awards
were presented at the end of the adventure, so things are kind of
awkward
to judge.

Your basic targets (20/adventure) are OK, but you might want to switch
over from an encounter-based award system, to the objective system. I
don't know if your players know how you award karma, I'll guess that
they do. if you switch over to an objective-based karma awards system,
then they'll think about how they can meet their objective without
combat - they'll start thinking more and it might spice your campaign
a bit.

Your running at about 10 points worth of 'encounter' karma, so gear
'objective' karma for somewhere between 8-12, with say 4 points per
objective (don't have to be the same ~ should vary with difficulty).
Partial awards should be allowed for incomplete objectives: in the
book example, the villain may have got away, but you could have damaged
his credibility/resources, so that may result in a half award.

Well hope that sorts out some of your questions.

Richard
Message no. 22
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:43:23 -0600 (MDT)
Richard M Conroy wrote:
|
|Well hope that sorts out some of your questions.

That pretty much straightened it out. Your use of objectives sounds
much more appealing than using encounters for karma awards (I'm still
trying to break 10+ years of **&* habits :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 23
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Dice -Reply
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:08:47 +1000 (EST)
> At 04:37 PM 7/22/96 -0600, you wrote:
> >Always keep a running total of player karma....this is very ipmortant when
> >dealing with fame and reputation.
>
> I love the smell of a forced piece of roll-playing in the morning...
>
> >From the very beginning of SRII, I've felt that the entire karma pool system
> was overwraught. In my game, if players had every tenth point of karma to
> re-roll screw-ups and failures, they'd be the equivalents of Stonewall Main
> Battle Tanks. Hence, the only karma pool my characters get is the team
> karma, which already does wonders for their doctoring bills.

I think the way our group is running it at the moment is Karma pool
accrues as per the rulebook, but any points above 10 may only be burnt,
rather than temporarily used. This seems to work.


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
Heisenberg may have slept here.
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
I don't have enemies, it's just that my best friends
are trying to kill me.
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:20:48 -0500 (CDT)
On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Terry L. Amburgey wrote:

> >Oh, I wouldn't say I'm mellow :) I've used bugs, wraiths,
> >dragons, cruise missiles, and stalking PMS crazed women.
> >I've screwed the characters over quite a few times (hired
> >unkowingly by one corp to trash another corp and then
> >double crossed). I've sent them to the astral plane,
> >physically. Sent them to Tir. Made them eat at a Stuffer
> >Shack. Caught them in a web of Dragon politics. Destroyed
> >their possesions (gotta love fire elementals). And to
> >finish my campaign they'll have the choice of saving or
> >destroying magic in SR. No, I wouldn't say I'm mellow at
> >all. I'm a GM that just wants to have fun.
> >
> >-David
>
> Made them eat at a Stuffer Shack!! Now THAT is cruel :)

Which reminds me of the McCop McSWAT team (Trolls and Orcs with assault
cannons and FN-HAR, fun:) ).

Stephen
Austin, TX

> Terry
> Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
> Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
> College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
> University of Kentucky
> Lexington, KY 40506-0034
>
>
Message no. 25
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:18:09 GMT
David Buehrer writes

> Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
> |
> |18 karma a run? I'd love that, assuming I'd survive. Usually
> |on our runs, we earn 4 karma and at least two characters have
> |taken either deadly stun or physical. Our GM says he'll give
> |us large karma-valued runs if we want, but they'll be
> |correspondingly more difficult. We've decided to wait on that.
>
> I've awarded 24 points before. Of course they had to fight
> a wraith...
ouch!

The highest awards i have given out have been FASA stuff, HB (what a
suprise) was the most, someone raked in 98. (in another game i was
not involved with a couple of folks got 125 odd for that) But then HB
takes 40-50 hours to run (at least) and is 'save the world' level
stuff. I later handed out about mid 40's (in two parts) for a home
written run that took as long to play as HB but that included a
Wraith, visits to Chicago (after the right date, i didn't write in
any Bug encounters but the first carelessly tossed spell soon woke a
few up :) ) and finally Britain, plus several more stops.

>
> Want to know how to get more karma out of your GM without
> tempting death? Read the section on awarding karma. Then
> roleplay your character and go for the humor, drama, and
> smarts awards (you can receive these awards more than once
> in an adventure). One of my players once earned an
> additional 8 karma from roleplaying, being smart, and
> outwiting me.
>
One of the nicest things about the SR karma system, like it works. I
(usually i sometimes forget) keep track of roleplaying and idea karma
during runs, it is not that uncommon for the most active players to
about double their karma awards through personal awards. Some of the
older FASA adventures give enough team you won't lose out too much by
ignoring such but it is very noticeable that you can get a big karma
advantage out of better play over time. The most notable example i
can remember was 1 character that got 9 (yes 9!) persnal for
'aftermath' in HB, the advantaes of very freeform adventure sections
for the players who did all sorts of things (effective and not) FASA
never thought of.

> -David
>
Mark
Message no. 26
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dice -Reply
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:31:14 +0100
John R. Wicker II said on 9:48/23 Jul 96...

>From the very beginning of SRII, I've felt that the entire karma pool system
> was overwraught. In my game, if players had every tenth point of karma to
> re-roll screw-ups and failures, they'd be the equivalents of Stonewall Main
> Battle Tanks. Hence, the only karma pool my characters get is the team
> karma, which already does wonders for their doctoring bills.

We more or less stopped increasing the Karma Pool (but only if we remember
to) because we found that characters with 10+ KP will shrug off most
fights easily, unless the GM makes it ridiculously difficult every time.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Look at my cat... Why can't I live like that?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 27
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:36:06 GMT
Richard M Conroy writes

> >And I go by the book:
>
> Which book is this ? The SR2 main rulebook, or some supplement that came
> out since I've last read the SR stuff ?
>
i assume he means SR2, karma awarding is only discussed in the main
rulebook. I think the system is good but by the looks of this thread
some folks interpre it differently to me.

> >1 karma per successful encounter,
> ^^^^^^^^^
> I seem to recall this meaning adventure/mission objective in my rules
> ie 1 point for survival, 1 point for every successfully completed
> objective (typically only 1-4 objectives per mission)
Such as
1 for collecting the data.
1 for rescuing the princess/wage slave/fellow runner etc.
1 for stoping the bad guy.
FASA adventures sometimes hand out more esp for killing/stopping bugs
/toxics etc.

> Never used threat ratings, they sucked compared with dice pools: I
> always used NPC's with dice pools.
They are handy for minor bad guys, but for importand folks i just
work out the dice pools and make the threat karma points.

> Besides what if you faced a mission
> where you were threatened with natural disaster/mob tactics(eg riot) ?
>
GM discretion. You can get objective karma for this, or threat karma,
landslides are just as deadly if in the way as panther cannons.

> I awarded Karma on a level that reflected an arbitrary threat level,
> typically 1-3, 4 for exceptional nightmares.
I have not handed out the 3 threat very often, but the team awards
temd to build well enough for objectives generally.

>
> >0-2 karma for roleplaying,
>
> I always awarded this on an exceptional basis, although I always
> awarded 1 point for players who stayed mostly in character, and who
> did more than just use the dice. Additional points were awarded for
> good roleplaying (above & beyond).
>
> >extra karma forhumor/drama/smarts/guts/rprt/etc.
>
> fair enough.
>

> You corrected above [1] by saying that you awarded it by adventure,
> which if these typically run to the order of 3-4 play sessions, then
> your karma awards balance out somewhat, even if I don't like the way
> you award some of it.

i recon on a 'backgroud' rate of about 1 point per 2 hours play, if
folks get involved reasonably 1pt/hour is readily achieved. Big time
adventures, HB or the bigger stuff i ran for powerful characters (result of HB
awards :) ) has been known to sustain 2pts/played hour , yes thats a
lot, not to be advised unless you want spiraling power levels or the
characters are already so powerful it won't make much difference.
The worst case was blitzing Double exposure in around 8 hours play,
can we say bonanza as 30 odd points appeared!

> But originally you said that you awarded per
> session. This kind of leads to the following abuses:
>
> 1st session Firearms/Sorcery/Gunnery 6->7 (12 karma) R.6
> 2nd 7->8 (14 karma) R.10
> 3rd 8->9 (16 karma) R.12
> 4th 9->10 (18 karma) R.12
>
> So after 4 sessions Max the munchkin has raised his main stat to
> abusive levels, with the ability to furhter abuse it. I based costing
> on current rating, not desired rating, I stand corrected if this is
> not the case, even so my point still carries.
That was the case in 1st ed. Its based on target in 2nd but as long
as you are consistent it wont really matter and i cannot see the
players complaining :)

>
> I'm not implying anything about your players, I'll take your word for
> it about the standard of their roleplaying, but I just want to point
> out the _typical_ consequences of awarding 18 karma/SESSION, and what
> got me a bit riled in the first place... I tend to work at about 5-8
> karma over every 2 sessions (average adventure length with my old group
> (7-8+ hours/session).
i would consider that slow but to some extent whats right depends on
hours played per week. The more you play the slower per hour you
really need to hand karma out to keep things ok. I am used to about 3
hours game a week and 1.5 karma a week really would mean months real
time for characters to get anything at all. while 18/week would be
well.... (i once had cause to add up a years play for the HB awards
and got around 180 had been given out probably for 48 or so 3 hour
sessions. >1/hour as that DE award upped it rather)

>
> Regards.
>
Mark
Message no. 28
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dice -Reply
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:30:00 GMT
"Gurth" writes

> We more or less stopped increasing the Karma Pool (but only if we remember
> to) because we found that characters with 10+ KP will shrug off most
> fights easily, unless the GM makes it ridiculously difficult every time.
>
Yeah. Having seen 10pts in a complex action allow PC's to walk
through near on anything, i changed matters a bit.

note first. I and most GM's i have met give 1 reroll per point (FASA
say 1st roll 1 pt 2nd 2pts 3rd reroll 3 pts of pool etc) this means
that when things like panther cannons make a 'once in a blue moon'
appearance characters don't just die no save (although that may be
realistic they desevr the chance to go 'oh .... dive for cover
before i find out what that does!').

Anyway. I track rep scores as total good karma earnt (not good plus
pool, therefore private rep = karma spent on improving character)
nominally 1 point goes to pool evey 10 points, needless to say around
100 karma this gets powerful, above that well whos for out doing
superman.
Therefore i give out pool at.
0,10,20,30,40,60,80,100,125,150,175,200,225,250,275,300

thats 17 Karma pool rather than 31 (shudder) by 300 (ok it was aimed
mostly at the 100-200 range to take the edge off things.

and continues, so far only NPC's have got onto this :
333,366,400,433,466,500,550 and will be every 50 to 1000, i think
even the most powerful 'good guy' NPC who gets a very good karma rate
will take some time yet to use that up despite porting on into my new
campain at the total he had reached with the 22 month old campain (at
most 1 character survived the lot, players changed about rather and a
few characters got killed, but not many.

This certainly does not solve the karma pool problems but it does
allow folks to pile karma into 'its my lucky day/Scotty!/i don't want
to lose my experienced character due to lousy dice' type moves
without matters getting totally out of control. PC's that insist they
are immune to lead poisioning still find out that concentrated fire
is deadly, the ammount of rerolls you have is irrelevant if you run
out of combat pool and simply don't have enough dice (ok you can buy
them with karma but that eats karma by the 'tanker' load).


Mark
Message no. 29
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: Dice -Reply
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 08:59:00 PDT
> "Gurth" writes
> > We more or less stopped increasing the Karma Pool (but only if we
remember
> > to) because we found that characters with 10+ KP will shrug off most
> > fights easily, unless the GM makes it ridiculously difficult every
time.
[hack]
> Therefore i give out pool at.
> 0,10,20,30,40,60,80,100,125,150,175,200,225,250,275,300
>
> thats 17 Karma pool rather than 31 (shudder) by 300 (ok it was aimed
> mostly at the 100-200 range to take the edge off things.

How about doing something like every time you award karma,
have each player roll an equivalent amount of dice vs. a
TN of their current pool. If they succeed, let them move
a karma into their pool.

So if characters don't get large awards later on, they won't
get pool increases, either.

Come to think of it, it'd increase too quickly as is - it
should probably be (karma earned) dice vs their current
pool + 4... Let's see, they'd need awards of:
3, 6, 6, 8, 10, 12, 18, etc.

(where each number is the smallest amount of karma to expect
at least 1 success vs current pool + 4)

So, they'd accumulate 4-5 pool pretty quickly, but they'd
really slow down after 7.

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 30
From: pbailey@***.ipswichcity.qld.gov.au (Peter Bailey)
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 20:46:52
Hi David,

[SNIP]

> And, in reference to the every 10th karma rule. Does anyone else do it this
> way? A PC receives 18 karma and one point goes to the karma pool. The next
> session the PC receives another 18 karma and one goes to the karma pool
> again. I've always kept track of the running total of karma and in the
> previous example the PC would put two karma into their pool for the second
> award (having received a total of 36 karma).

We keep track of total karma awarded, with every 10th total karma point
going to karma pool instead of to good karma. The big change we make is
that players CANNOT re-roll failures with karma pool. They cannot re-roll
fails at all.

:)

--

Internet: pbailey@***.com.au Fidonet: 3:640/281.3

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Message no. 31
From: RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:55:40 +1000 (EST)
On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 acsehi@*****.ecol.klte.hu wrote:

> method: a runner receives 3 karma a running, the 1/10th of these
> 0.3, rounded up 1, and this incrase the karma pool. If this char.
> receives 18 karma, the 1/10th 1.8, rounded up 2. Incrase the karma
> pool 2.
> Andras.
I do it the same way, but I always let the runner choose which way to
round the fraction.

Ray.
Message no. 32
From: Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:26:40 +1000 (EST)
On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Peter Bailey wrote:
>
> We keep track of total karma awarded, with every 10th total karma point
> going to karma pool instead of to good karma. The big change we make is
> that players CANNOT re-roll failures with karma pool. They cannot re-roll
> fails at all.
>

Just a quick question. What do you players use Karma Pool for? (Only
extra Dice?)


Craig.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Insert Sig file Here....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:39:18 +0100
Joker said on 15:26/25 Jul 96...

> Just a quick question. What do you players use Karma Pool for? (Only
> extra Dice?)

Rerolling failures is about the only thing the KP ever gets used for over
here. And then only in life-threatening situations, because I got tired of
"Hmm, I only got 1 success to make that focus. I'll spend a KP point and
reroll the rest of the dice." (I don't think this is explicitly covered in
the rules.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Look at my cat... Why can't I live like that?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 34
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Dice
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:48:16 -0500
At 03:26 PM 7/25/96 +1000, you wrote:
>Just a quick question. What do you players use Karma Pool for? (Only
>extra Dice?)

My gamers always forget they have Karma Points and the Team Karma Pool to
use until after the game sessions.
-Thomas Deeny
Art Director, K&L Advertising
Cartoonist at Large

"Oh happy day! I've discovered a surprise Ding Dong in my pants!"
-Robin Joynes' brother-in-law "Dave".

Further Reading

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Thwap!