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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: Dikote
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 14:27:01 +0200
Last week I believe it was, someone asked for the price to add dikote to
a weapon. A few months ago, I had compiled a list for myself to give more
or less standard costs for this, and I thought the rest of you out there
might be interested too.

There is nothing in the list from Fields of Fire, I don't have that book
(yet).

More than one item can be treated with Dikote together. Add the prices
together for all items that are treated. If this cost comes below 1000
nuyen, it is 1000 nuyen instead. Apply availability and street index
normally (p.91, ShadowTech).

If an item is not listed below, it cannot be treated with Dikote (doing
it anyway melts the item, or otherwise destroys it).

Weapons

Item Surface Base Normal Rating
area Dikote rating with
(sq. cm) cost Dikote

Katana 400 4000 (str+3)M (str+3)S
Sword 300 3000 (str+2)M (str+2)S
Ares Monosword 350 3500 (str+3)M (str+3)S

Knife 30 to 100 area x 10 (str)L (str)M
Throwing Knife 60 600 (str)L* (str)M
(str)L** (str+1)L
Survival Knife 120 1200 (str+2)L (str+2)M

Shuriken 80 800 (str)L (str+1)L

Laser Crescent Axe 200 2000 (str)S (str)D
Wallacher Combat Axe
Axe blade 100 1000 (str)S (str)D
Thrusting Point 60 600 (str+2)L (str+2)M

Fore-arm Snap Blades 3x 40 1200 (str)M (str)S

Pole Arm 7500 75000 (str)S (str+1)S
Staff 5000 50000 (str+2)M (str+3)M
Stun Stun
Club 2500 25000 (str+1)M (str+2)M
Stun Stun

Stun Baton 2000 20000 6S Stun 6S Stun
AZ-150 Super Stun 2000 20000 8S Stun 8S Stun
Baton

Arrow 10 100 as bow +1 Power
Precision Arrow 10 100 as bow +1 Power
Crossbow Bolt 10 100 as crossbow +1 Power

Hand Razors 4x 5 200 (str)L (str)M
Improved Hand 4x 5 200 (str+2)L (str+2)M
Razors
Spurs 3x 40 1200 (str)M (str)S

* = when used to stab a target
** = when thrown at a target

Body Armor

Item Surface Base Normal Rating
area Dikote rating with
(sq. cm) cost Dikote

Vest with Plates 10000 100000 (4/3) (5/4)
Lined Coat 27500 275000 (4/2) (5/3)

Secure Long Coat 27500 275000 (4/2) (5/3)

Partial Heavy Armor 15000 150000 (6/4) (7/5)
Full Suit Heavy 22500 225000 (8/6) (9/7)
Armor
Helmet 4000 40000 (+1/+1) (+2/+2)

Light Security 17500 175000 (6/4) (7/5)
Medium Security 22500 225000 (6/5) (7/6)
Heavy Security 25000 250000 (7/5) (8/6)
Security Helmet 6000 60000 (+1/+2) (+2/+3)

Ammunition

Item Surface Base Normal Rating
area Dikote rating with
(sq. cm) cost Dikote

Regular ammo 3 30 as weapon +1 Power
Explosive ammo <<if treated with Dikote, these explode and destroy
all other items being treated with them>>
Cannon ammo <<if treated with Dikote, these explode and destroy
all other items being treated with them>>
Needle ammo 3 30 as weapon +1 Power
APDS ammo 4 40 as weapon +1 Power
Missiles and <<if treated with Dikote, these explode and destroy
grenades all other items being treated with them>>
Message no. 2
From: Lucifer <MFISHER@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: dikote
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 14:34:49 EST
Martin Steffens wrote:
> I use dikoted-fletchettes (Buy them, their worth
> their cost!) but can you use fletchettes in burst or full-auto
> weapons ? (just an evil thought }-) )
>
> While I'm talking about dikote: how about dikoted narcoject darts?
>
WHAT?! Dikote narcoject darts? Why? They're a toxin delivery
system. The point of dikoting is to augment physical damage.
Narcoject darts don't cause physical damage. In fact, the only damage
caused is by the toxin carried by the dart. Watch what you're trying to
dikote chummer. :-)

It's not Death if you refuse it, it is if you accept it.
Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living, to the Dead one owes
only truth." Voltaire
Message no. 3
From: Cugel <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:26:05 +01.0
On 12 Oct 95 at 18:22, Weston Ochse wrote:

>NOT ONLY CAN YOU DIKOTE WEAPONS, BUT YOU CAN ALSO DIKOTE MOST ARMOR.
>COOL HUH.

Dikoting armor is one of the most hideously expensive things you can
do. Apart from the fact that you look like a knight in /shining/
armor (good cammo :), the price makes it next to useless. Better go
for a higher grade of armor or get the orthoskin. It's much cheaper.
Dikote is IMHO only really cost-efficient on weapons.

Greetings,

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
The Kappamaki, a whaling research ship, was currently researching the
question: How many whales can you catch in one week?
-- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
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Message no. 4
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 10:03:11 +0200
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Cugel wrote:

> On 12 Oct 95 at 18:22, Weston Ochse wrote:
>
> >NOT ONLY CAN YOU DIKOTE WEAPONS, BUT YOU CAN ALSO DIKOTE MOST ARMOR.
> >COOL HUH.
for example you have a armor jacket dikoted so you have 6/4 armour.
This costs 150.000 NY. Then with the first hit you take after medium the
armor takes damage.The 150.000 are worthless.
goodbye (also you are a mobile unit that costs more than 150.000 how the
squatters see you? I think like 150.000 so it is a bad idea to dikote
armor )

jpante@*********.gr
I am the Way,the Truth and the Life (Gospel of john 14,6)
Message no. 5
From: David Egeland <davide@*********.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 21:37:18 +0200
In article <01HWCQ6WBGCY8WWS4H@*****.MMC.EDU>,
"Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU> wrote:
>It's in Shadowtech. Consider carefully before giving out Dikote. I made te
>one PC who got it go through all sorts of trouble for it. Remember, a troll
>with a dikoted Wallacher axe can turn a car into sushi in a matter of
>seconds.

That's a scary thought all right! :) Could be a fun goal for the
players, but then again I'm not sure any of my players would be
interested enough to go hunting it down.

--
/\
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[/////I/////(OO)= David Egeland = davide@*********.no =================>
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Message no. 6
From: David Egeland <davide@*********.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 21:41:13 +0200
In article <199510122222.SAA18686@****.istar.com>,
Weston Ochse <emmydog@*****.COM> wrote:
> NOT ONLY CAN YOU DIKOTE WEAPONS, BUT YOU CAN ALSO DIKOTE MOST ARMOR.
>COOL HUH.

Weird idea approaching: would it be possible for, say a troll to dikote
his dermal body armor?

--
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Message no. 7
From: David Egeland <davide@*********.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 21:42:50 +0200
In article <199510122310.AA23516@***.xs4all.nl>,
Gurth <gurth@******.NL> wrote:
>> I've seen some messages about dikoted weapons, but I haven't been able
>> to find any rules for it in any of the rule books I have. Any help would
>> be appreciated.
>That's in Shadowtech, page 91. It's not much more than a diamond coating
>on your weapon, that costs 1000 nuyen per square centimeter (with a Street
>Index of 10 on top of that...) and adds +1 Damage Level for sharp weapons
>and +1 Power Level for blunt ones. Makes your sword do (str+2)S instead of
>M...

Okay, thanks! I actually have Shadowtech, but I guess I overlooked it
when I was browsing through my books, trying to find anything about
dikote.

>> Also, I was wondering if anyone had the stats for the "Whitney-Morgan
>> Caseless Machine Gun", depicted on page 239 of the Shadowrun II
>> rule book(softcover edition). My guess would be about the same stats as
>> the Vindicator minigun, but I'm not completely sure.
>Actually the W-MCMG is a "typical MMG." I did some stats for it once,
>making it a medium MG minigun:

Yes, I also thought it looked more like a medium MG than a light. I also
fits my view of a minigun better than the Vindicator, with the
positioning of the handle, the shape of the barrels, etc.

<-- Stats deleted -->

>Of course these are only the stats I figured would go nicely with the
>picture. Nothing official about them :)

No, but I think they were quite on the mark, at least according to what
can be told from looking at the picture. BTW: Do you have any idea why
they included a picture of it without giving any information about it?

--
/\
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Message no. 8
From: Weston Ochse <emmydog@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 12:28:29 -0400
>
>for example you have a armor jacket dikoted so you have 6/4 armour.
>This costs 150.000 NY. Then with the first hit you take after medium the
>armor takes damage.The 150.000 are worthless.
>goodbye (also you are a mobile unit that costs more than 150.000 how the
>squatters see you? I think like 150.000 so it is a bad idea to dikote
>armor )
>

I didn't realize that it degrades that fast. What is the source. I must
have missed it.


>
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 14:00:19 +0930
David Egeland wrote:
>
> In article <199510122222.SAA18686@****.istar.com>,
> Weston Ochse <emmydog@*****.COM> wrote:
> > NOT ONLY CAN YOU DIKOTE WEAPONS, BUT YOU CAN ALSO DIKOTE MOST ARMOR.
> >COOL HUH.
>
> Weird idea approaching: would it be possible for, say a troll to dikote
> his dermal body armor?

Only if he likes the idea of sitting in a room at at least several hundred
degrees...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 12:28:35 +0100
David Egeland said on 13 Oct 95...

> >> Also, I was wondering if anyone had the stats for the "Whitney-Morgan
> >> Caseless Machine Gun",
> >Actually the W-MCMG is a "typical MMG." I did some stats for it once,
> >making it a medium MG minigun:
>
> Yes, I also thought it looked more like a medium MG than a light. I also
> fits my view of a minigun better than the Vindicator, with the
> positioning of the handle, the shape of the barrels, etc.

The Vindicator is probably designed as a hand-held weapon, much like you
see in Predator and Terminator 2, though I would refer you to More Guns!
for a little note on using such weapons :)

> No, but I think they were quite on the mark, at least according to what
> can be told from looking at the picture. BTW: Do you have any idea why
> they included a picture of it without giving any information about it?

Like I said, it's most likely a "generic MMG." What is a little stranger
is the picture of a Beretta 110-T in the SR1 rulebook -- no stats for it
anywhere. (Before anyone tries to point this out: the 101-T was _also_
pictured, and is therefore definitely a different weapon.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Living day by day
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 22:32:55 +0930
Weston Ochse wrote:
> I didn't realize that it degrades that fast. What is the source. I must
> have missed it.

It's from Fields of Fire... basically, take a moderate, and the armour
loses one point of the appropriate type for each multiple of the armour's
level that the power of the attack was. So, get hit by a heavy pistol in an
armour jacket for a moderate, and it loses one point of ballistic.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 12
From: Cugel <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 18:36:21 +01.0
On 13 Oct 95 at 21:41, David Egeland wrote:

> Weird idea approaching: would it be possible for, say a troll to
> dikote his dermal body armor?

No, the dermal has to be a somewhat flexible to allow for movement,
and dikoted objects are not exactly flexible. Plus that the dikote,
once damaged, would do nasty things inside your body. You can compare
it a bit with putting a armor glass-plate in your body; great as long
as it's holds, but...

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net)
When you can flatten entire cities at a whim, a tendency towards
quiet reflection and seeing-things-from-the-other-fellow's-point-
of-view is seldom necessary.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
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Message no. 13
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 12:46:35 -0500
> > Weird idea approaching: would it be possible for, say a troll to dikote
> > his dermal body armor?

Actually, I had that idea for regular (cyber) dermal armor, but, since such
stuff gives extra body dice, there is no armor rating for dicoting to ad to.
Ortho skin and bone lacing have armor ratings, but are out for obvious reasons.
Body plating (cybertech cyberlimb armor plate) is another matter- dicoted
cyberlimbs would look tres flash and be durable as heck. Unarmed power would
go up, youd have some armor. But ohh, the expense.

Seb
Message no. 14
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 13:17:27 -0500
>
> In article <01HWCQ6WBGCY8WWS4H@*****.MMC.EDU>,
> "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU> wrote:
> >It's in Shadowtech. Consider carefully before giving out Dikote. I made te
> >one PC who got it go through all sorts of trouble for it. Remember, a troll
> >with a dikoted Wallacher axe can turn a car into sushi in a matter of
> >seconds.

I have a caracter who'd like to make a hobby of attacking drones with his
diakoted Katana (love that high penetration). But drones don't have armed
combat. So How do you handle such attacks? The drone gets NO defense, and
rolls body/armor whatever it gets to resist damage, plus maybe control pool?
Definate sushi time. And yeah, he's fast enough to avoid getting shot- mostly.

SEB
Message no. 15
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 16:26:59 +0930
Cugel wrote:
>
> On 13 Oct 95 at 21:41, David Egeland wrote:
>
> > Weird idea approaching: would it be possible for, say a troll to
> > dikote his dermal body armor?
>
> No, the dermal has to be a somewhat flexible to allow for movement,
> and dikoted objects are not exactly flexible. Plus that the dikote,
> once damaged, would do nasty things inside your body. You can compare
> it a bit with putting a armor glass-plate in your body; great as long
> as it's holds, but...

No, it doesn't have to be flexible... it's not flexible now. But what kind
of person wants to be flayed alive to have parts of his skin covered with
diamond?

(You're still right about the secondary effect... *wince*)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 16
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 10:31:00 PDT
Weston Ochse wrote:
> I didn't realize that it degrades that fast. What is the source. I must
> have missed it.

>It's from Fields of Fire... basically, take a moderate, and the armour
>loses one point of the appropriate type for each multiple of the armour's
>level that the power of the attack was. So, get hit by a heavy pistol in an
>armour jacket for a moderate, and it loses one point of ballistic.

all armor degrades that fast even heavy military.

I thought it said 1000x m^2 not cm^2



Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 17
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:31:26 -0700
>> In article <01HWCQ6WBGCY8WWS4H@*****.MMC.EDU>, "Andrew W.
Ragland"
>> <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU> wrote:
>> >It's in Shadowtech. Consider carefully before giving out Dikote.
>> >I made te one PC who got it go through all sorts of trouble for
>> >it. Remember, a troll with a dikoted Wallacher axe can turn a
>> >car into sushi in a matter of seconds.
>
>I have a caracter who'd like to make a hobby of attacking drones
>with his diakoted Katana (love that high penetration). But drones
>don't have armed combat. So How do you handle such attacks? The
>drone gets NO defense, and rolls body/armor whatever it gets to
>resist damage, plus maybe control pool? Definate sushi time. And
>yeah, he's fast enough to avoid getting shot- mostly.
>
>SEB

My only comments are... What does battery acid do to a diakoted
katana not to mention any splash from this. Also what happens
when you cleave through a starter (electrical) all the way into
a gas tank. Or of there are any nemesis NPC's send a drone
with a gun on it and a nice small bomb. :-)

*personally I like the battery acid corrodes the katana and renders
it useless. (boy it's hard to replace a dikoted katana)*

Trust me - any ailment is curable even katana happy PCs.
Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 18
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 15:17:49 -0500
> My only comments are... What does battery acid do to a diakoted
> katana not to mention any splash from this. Also what happens
> when you cleave through a starter (electrical) all the way into
> a gas tank. Or of there are any nemesis NPC's send a drone
> with a gun on it and a nice small bomb. :-)
>
> *personally I like the battery acid corrodes the katana and renders
> it useless. (boy it's hard to replace a dikoted katana)*
>
> Trust me - any ailment is curable even katana happy PCs.
> Thanks
> Gary C.
>
The problem was not how to get rid of such attacks- the bomb thing has already
happened once, and diamonds are rather corosion resistant. The problem was
how to handle it realistically. Guess we'll just stick with the old "roleplay
and look good doing it" rules. BTW, what do you mean "katana happy"? The
caracter in question has unsheathed the thing twice and leaves it at home most
times. Dont cure me unless I complain, please.

"this is not a flame. this is only a test of the emergency whining system"
Message no. 19
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 18:37:00 EST
>I dunno, Jani... "living earth" sounds to me like soil, not sand, which is
>pretty dead, actually...
Actuall sand is quite fertile, sometimes even more fertile than normal soil.
I mean Deserts are usually some of the most fertile places on earth,
unfortunately the lack of water tends to keep plants from growing. So sand
is quite alive, in a sense.
---Sedah Drol
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 20
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 08:42:38 GMT
"St. Jean, Ricky" writes
>
> all armor degrades that fast even heavy military.
>
The armour degradation rules are real nasty. Probably quite
realistic, as i have heard assorted comments but you wouldhave to ask
some of the more knowledgeable listmembers on this subject.

> I thought it said 1000x m^2 not cm^2
>
Shadowtech sas 100^cm, which is a rather odd figure.
The way it is written it is difficult to be sure if they mean 100cm
by 100cm, ie '1 square meter of area' or 'one hundred square
centimeters' 10cm*10cm. If the former is true and plenty foks plsy it
that way dikote is bascally unaffordable except for the odd weapon
for the real H-H freaks, and armour comes in at 100K+ a time. On the
later if you charge a minimum of 1M squared per item it is affordable
but expensive, that treated jacket could still run to 1.5 M square
thats 1000 * 1.5 * 10 = 15,000 newyen [better than 1,500,500 at 1K *
index 10 per 10cm*10cm]. ( i think its street index 10, beware you do
not let players buy mountains of dikoted stuff or the Ruthemoid
polymers at startup as the street indexes are so high that they can
actually sell them later for more than they paid for them despite the
*0.3 selling factor.

Mark
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:45:40 +0100
Gary Carroll said on 17 Oct 95...

> My only comments are... What does battery acid do to a diakoted
> katana not to mention any splash from this.

I wish I could remember whether I ever learned anything about the effects
of sulphuric acid coming in contact diamond... (Serves me right for never
paying attention in chemistry class...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Personality test I failed with the best
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 22
From: David Egeland <davide@*********.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:29:13 +0200
In article <199510151739.SAA27305@********.pi.net>,
Cugel <cugel@**.NET> wrote:
>> Weird idea approaching: would it be possible for, say a troll to
>> dikote his dermal body armor?
>No, the dermal has to be a somewhat flexible to allow for movement,
>and dikoted objects are not exactly flexible. Plus that the dikote,
>once damaged, would do nasty things inside your body. You can compare
>it a bit with putting a armor glass-plate in your body; great as long
>as it's holds, but...

Yes, I see your point, and after I wrote that message, I read that the
procedure for applying dikote includes subjecting the object(or the
person in this matter) to very high temperatures, and even troll
wouldn't find this all to pleasing I guess. :)

--
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Message no. 23
From: David Egeland <davide@*********.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:26:44 +0200
In article <199510151129.AA23832@***.xs4all.nl>,
Gurth <gurth@******.NL> wrote:
>The Vindicator is probably designed as a hand-held weapon, much like you
>see in Predator and Terminator 2, though I would refer you to More Guns!
>for a little note on using such weapons :)

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is More Guns!, and if possible,
how can I get it? And thanks for the information! :)

--
/\
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[/////I/////(OO)= David Egeland = davide@*********.no =================>
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Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:09:26 +0100
David Egeland said on 18 Oct 95...

> Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is More Guns!, and if possible,
> how can I get it? And thanks for the information! :)

More Guns! is a supplement for BTRC's 3G3 weapon design system. It has
lots of weapons for eight different game systems (SR isn't one of them,
though), designed using 3G3 (and funnily enough, I get different results
when I do the calculations myself...) It should be available from game
stores.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Reality < Television
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Message no. 25
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 20:32:28 GMT
> > Gary Carroll said on 17 Oct 95...
> > My only comments are... What does battery acid do to a diakoted
> > katana not to mention any splash from this.
>Gurth writes:
> I wish I could remember whether I ever learned anything about the effects
> of sulphuric acid coming in contact diamond... (Serves me right for never
> paying attention in chemistry class...)

Bugger all, to be honest. Battery acid is nasty in the eyes, but on skin
or metal you have plenty of time to wipe it off and rinse it with water.
There isn't much in a car or drone that would ruin DiKote... the problem
is that the stable crystal structure is just that, stable, and rather
hard to violate.

Of course if someone is in a GM's opinion abusing DiKote, then by all
means the coating is rather fragile and cracks/flakes at regular
interval (read a production engineering textbook on diamond tools for
inspiration: excellent for many types of work, but brittle, expensive,
and require careful handling).

Personally I'd CBN or TiN - coat blades myself. But then I'm a mechanical
engineer with all those textbooks on my shelves at work :) I like the
game mechanic, so what you call it is (almost) irrelevant. If I wanted
100% technical realism I'd play Traveller. In fact I *did* play Traveller...

Finally, if a DiKoted katana causes too many problems, just have it stolen :)
After all, if the PCs were regularly getting trashed by an NPC armed with
Weapon X, wouldn't they steal it? So why should NPCs be different? As to
the "how?", does that PC ever get... certain urges? How does (s)he answer them?
A steady partner or, er, "hired help"?

Anyone who can't at least identify (descriptions are optional) the last time
their character got laid, or give a good reason why this being is celibate,
should reconsider their roleplaying ;) Isn't that sort of thing important
to *you*? ;)

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 26
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:51:54 GMT
if i remember correctly sulphuris acid has no effect on diamond there
are a few acids that do eg aqua regia sulphuric/nitric mix 1/3 mix i
believe and a few other extremely hazardous acids
Message no. 27
From: "Rodney D'Armand" <rdarmand@*****.net>
Subject: Dikote
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 01:02:58 -0500
>From _ShadowTech_ by FASA, p. 91 (c) 1992 by FASA corporation
This should not be interpreted as infringing on copyrights.

DIKOTE (tm)
Legality Rating: Legal
Availability: 6/14 days
Street Index: 10

Dikote (tm) is a process that deposits a thin diamond film on any
solid surface. Small volumes of methane gas are mixed with large volumes of
hydrogen gas, then subjected to powerful beams of microwave energy. This
creates a plasma, a super-hot gas in which all atoms are ionized. The plasma
is then passed over the cooler solid target, forming a diamond film as the
gases condense on the surface.
The diamond film imparts much more structural strength and
resilience to conventional materials, adding +2 to the Structural/Barrier
Rating, and +1 to any ballistic and +1 to any impact armor present. When
Dikote is used to coat a melee weapon, the Strength Rating for an attack
made with the treated weapon increases by +1 (e.g., 5M becomes 6M). If
applied to an edged instrument the weapon's potential wounding increases by
one level. A sword's natural Damage Code is (Str)M, for example, but a sword
with Dikote inflicts damage and is resisted as if it were (Str)S. A
similarly treated projectile weapon has the effective Strength of the
thrower raised by +1. Parrying with a Dikote-treated object adds an
additional die for defensive purposes only.
Treated products also find use in the construction of high-speed
bearings. Bearings treated with Dikote(tm) last in high-temperature
environments where conventional lubricants break down, permitting the
development of faster, more efficient, more powerful engines and turbines.
Application of Dikote technology has also benefitted the electronics
industry. Conventional silicon chips generate large amounts of heat while
operating, which requires that individual components be relatively far apart
to prevent overheating. As the diamond film sheds heat much faster that
silicon, electronic components layered on a Dikote film may be packed in
denser formations (resulting in smaller and lighter products) and can also
function in such super-hot environments as jet engines or nuclear reactors,
where silicon would fail regularly. Diamond film semiconductors can also
withstand higher voltages, permitting their use in various facets of
microwave communication technology. In contrast to silicon, which will not
function for a period of days to weeks after exposure to radiation, Dikote
components will also continue operating after such exposure.
A Dikote-treated jacket contains roughly 1.5mª of material, a full
suit 2.25mª, and a long coat 2.75mª.
Edged weapons with Dikote can inflict damage against "hardened"
(i.e., vehicular) targets. When so used, these weapons reduce their normal
(unmodified) Damage Code by one level. Against a man, a glazed sword, for
example would be (Str)S; against a car, the same sword would be (Str)M.

Price:
1,000¥/100cmª (1,000¥ minimum)
>>>>>[Not everything can be glazed with Dikote. The item treated must be
able to withstand the plasma. This obviously eliminates cloth and plastic,
which, unfortunately, comprise the bulk of casual armor these days. If
you've got some heavier stuff or ceramic armor, getting it glazed it a good
idea. If you have the money.]<<<<<
-The Smiling Bandit <Strikes again!/Ha-Ha-Ha>

>>>>>[I've seen a Dikote-treated sword in action. That thing sliced clean
through anything in it's way!]<<<<<
-The Neon Samurai <11:21:00/12-27-52>

>>>>>[I've heard the stuff wears off in about six months or so, but...
maybe
it depends on what you hit and how often you hit it.]<<<<<
-Hatchetman <11:43:45/12-27-52>


NOTE:
Notice the part about having to withstand the heat? That's important. :-)

Rodney D'Armand
Message no. 28
From: Zaeki@***.com
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:29:47 -0500
In a message dated 96-01-28 21:10:02 EST, you write:

>Just wondering in game terms.. What does Dikote do when applied to stuff..
>swords.. arrow heads.. bullets.... etc...

(not a direct quote of Shadowtech): It puts a lining of crystal and plazma
that forms around the metal. When applied and hardened it makes the metal
stronger by about tenfold. However, I don't know the exact +'s and -'s in
damage codes and stuff (I do know that it emmits heat though).
Message no. 29
From: Zaeki@***.com
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:29:59 -0500
In a message dated 96-01-29 03:05:19 EST, you write:

>Well... if you were, like, to get hold of the book "Shadowtech", right,
>which kinda like explains all this stuff, see, you'd see it all there!
>
>

Shadowtech is OOP (OUT OF PRINT). He (or I for that matter) wouldn't be able
to get our own for aro. 6 months which is when th 2ED version is scheduled to
come out from what I hear.
Message no. 30
From: "Paul J. Carmen" <odin@*********.educationconnection.k12.ct.us>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 20:57:04 -0500
At 08:29 PM 2/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-01-28 21:10:02 EST, you write:
>
>>Just wondering in game terms.. What does Dikote do when applied to stuff..
>>swords.. arrow heads.. bullets.... etc...
>
>(not a direct quote of Shadowtech): It puts a lining of crystal and plazma
>that forms around the metal. When applied and hardened it makes the metal
>stronger by about tenfold. However, I don't know the exact +'s and -'s in
>damage codes and stuff (I do know that it emmits heat though).

The process of applying the Dikote uses heat. The final product does not
emmit heat.
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/_/ Paul J. Carmen _/_/
_/_/ odin@*******************.k12.ct.us _/_/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Message no. 31
From: James Meiers <polbdm@***.unm.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 23:00:33 -0700 (MST)
On Fri, 2 Feb 1996 Zaeki@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 96-01-29 03:05:19 EST, you write:
>
> >Well... if you were, like, to get hold of the book "Shadowtech", right,

> >which kinda like explains all this stuff, see, you'd see it all there!
> >
> >
>
> Shadowtech is OOP (OUT OF PRINT). He (or I for that matter) wouldn't be able
> to get our own for aro. 6 months which is when th 2ED version is scheduled to
> come out from what I hear.

Shadowtech isn't out-of-print, and Fasa has not saaid anything about
making a second edition of the book, although one of the later printings
had already been coverted to SR2 rules. I think maybe it was third or
fourth printing.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the
courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to hide the bodies
of the people I had to kill because they pissed me off."
-Unknown (but certainly correct)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 32
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 01:49:37 -0500
On Feb 02, 1996 23:00:33, 'James Meiers <polbdm@***.unm.EDU>' wrote:


>Shadowtech isn't out-of-print, and Fasa has not saaid anything about
>making a second edition of the book, although one of the later printings
>had already been coverted to SR2 rules. I think maybe it was third or
>fourth printing.

To the best of my knowledge, Shadowtech isn't printed MUCH anymore, thos
the rules ARE converted in the end of the SRII book.

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M-- V
PS+
PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
tsbtal@***.pipeline.com or tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu
http://heimdall.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu
All I needed to know about Shakespeare I learned from
watching "Gargoyles"
Message no. 33
From: Ivan Cappiello <conan@**.COM.AU>
Subject: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:03:03 -0000
Hi I was wondering if anybody knows how much it costs to coat a Katana with
Dikote? Also if you know the rough area of the Katana? Thanx
Message no. 34
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:04:07 -0400
At 07:03 AM 10/20/98 -0000, you wrote:
>Hi I was wondering if anybody knows how much it costs to coat a Katana with
>Dikote? Also if you know the rough area of the Katana? Thanx

Well, that all depends; How much 'ya got?

:)
(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 35
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:21:45 -0400
>Hi I was wondering if anybody knows how much it costs to coat a Katana with
>Dikote? Also if you know the rough area of the Katana? Thanx
>

Your typical sword has a blade of about 80 to 100 cm long so call it 90
cm a Katana is a fairly narrow sword say about 4 cm so that's 360 cm^2
per side sat the thickness of the two edges adds up to .7 cm for a total
of 63 cm^2 more and a grand total of 783 cm^2 rounding it off to 800 cm^2
sounds good. Dikote costs 1000 per 100 cm^2 so that's 8000 nuyen without
Street Index. The listed SI is 10 so 80,000 after it and you have to buy
the sword your self. :)

On a related note how the heck would you go about sharpening the blade
after it eventually becomes dull.
Message no. 36
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:16:30 +1000
Steve Collins writes:
[On the subject of dikoting...]
> On a related note how the heck would you go about sharpening the blade
> after it eventually becomes dull.

Why would it become dull before the dikote, which only lasts a little while
before it breaks off under repeated impacts, breaks off?

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 37
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:08:55 GMT
On the subject of Dikote and katanas. Katanas first.

A little historical detail...
Ghengis Khan, during the 13th century, sent a number of messengers to Japan.
The Japanese emperor had them summarily executed, as that was a common japanese
custom at the time. The Mongols considered messengers sacrosanct, and this led
to increased hostilities. A small expeditionary force was sent to attack.
The Japanese samurai in command went forward to challenge the invader's
general and was cut down by the invaders. The unprepared army was then killed.
The next day the mongol ships was gone. It sparked some rethinking on strategy
on the part of the japanese. In 1244, when the mongol armada attacked in force,
they were barely repulsed for a while. Strong wind kept them from making a
landing in force, and small raiding parties of japanese samurai and warriors
attacked individual ships at night. In close quarter duels the katana was a
key asset, but it was still pissing in the wind - several hundred warships were
in the bay. What happened next was a powerful tsunami flared and sunk the
ships. This wind was called 'Kamikaze' - divine wind - and ended the attempt
to conquer Japan. It was the first major engagement where the katana really
proved itself superior. It was not until several hundred years later
metallurgy made possible weapons like today's katanas.


The process of manufacturing is time - consuming and exact. Only a few
weaponsmiths are licenced to produce the swords. The tempering process is
helped by coating the edge in a thin layer of clay, which leaves the wavy
pattern along the edge of the sword, while the 'shimmering' of the steel
is due to the folding process. The pattern of the clay is key to determine
who made the sword, as well as which period it was made in.

Okay, what about dikote?

Well, dikote is a layering of diamond. While extremely hard, it is basically
diamond, which is as brittle as crystal glass. (Only a LOT harder so it
takes a lot more to make it shatter.). In europe iron swords were hard
and brittle. They held an edge real well, but they shattered. Steel swords,
also european, were flexible but they did not hold an edge well. Folding the
steel gave the unique quality of being both flexible AND holding an edge,
a technique used in the making of katanas. I guess you can see where I'm
going here - dikote is hard, true, but also inflexible and brittle, like
diamond. If you put that on a flexible blade, it will crack and flake off
at the drop of a hat. If you put it on an inflexible blade, it will stay
on a lot better but it has a chance of shattering.

Metallurgy should probably be better in 2050, though, but it would probably
still be a problem. Make it so that the players choose - either it's on
a brittle weapon (probably regular sword) in which case it keeps its edge
until it shatters - a fumble shatters the weapon - or it can be on a
flexible sword, typically a katana, and it has a fairly limited duration of
use. (Say, ten-twenty fights and it starts looking fairly flaky and needs to
be cleaned off and reapplied.). I like giving choices like that. :)

Regards,
Fade

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 38
From: Drea O'Dare <dreaodare@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:51:57 PDT
>Hi I was wondering if anybody knows how much it costs to coat a Katana
with
>Dikote? Also if you know the rough area of the Katana? Thanx

Sorry Ivan, but I gotta get something offa my chest about dikoting.
Everyone and their mother has something dikoted these days! What the
heck's this? Dikoting's supposed to be rare, It's supposed to be
expensive as all hell, and well, not regular. But now, it's like people
got their friggin' toenails dikoted. It's like PACs. Everyone and
their brother has that too. Makes me annoyed enough to beat some heads.

Pink`

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Message no. 39
From: John Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:47:36 -0400
Ivan Cappiello wrote:
>
> Hi I was wondering if anybody knows how much it costs to coat a Katana with
> Dikote? Also if you know the rough area of the Katana? Thanx

A katana's blade is (I *think* -- hardly experienced in this area, so if
my estimates are off, someone who knows should smack upside the head:)
about an inch (approx. 2.54cm) in width and about 26 to 27 inches (66 to
68.5 cm, about) by (I *think*) an eighth to a quarter of an inch thick
(0.32 to 0.64 cm, give or take a few significant figures). That makes
the surface area *about* (err... ([l*w]+[w*h]+[l*h])*2...) 279.15 to
293.45 cm^2. Dikote's something like 10K nuyen per 100 cm^2 (IIRC, my
books are out of arm's reach and I need to boot into Windows 15 minutes
ago:).
If you have (or can borrow) Shadowtech, you can find info on Dikote in
there.

--
John Pederson, otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" No. 2 -- with a
bullet!
Sergeant-at-Arms and Greatest Swordsman of the Frinch Army
Message no. 40
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:06:40 -0400
Drea O'Dare wrote:
>
> >Hi I was wondering if anybody knows how much it costs to coat a Katana
> with
> >Dikote? Also if you know the rough area of the Katana? Thanx
>
> Sorry Ivan, but I gotta get something offa my chest about dikoting.
> Everyone and their mother has something dikoted these days! What the
> heck's this? Dikoting's supposed to be rare, It's supposed to be
> expensive as all hell, and well, not regular. But now, it's like people
> got their friggin' toenails dikoted. It's like PACs. Everyone and
> their brother has that too. Makes me annoyed enough to beat some heads.

I agree with you in principle, but.. In the game world, it's now 2060.
Shadowtech was supposed to be, what, 2052? That's a big jump in availability.
Eight years ago TODAY, cell phones were rare and expensive. >8->

So my guess is that dikoting would take off a bit in the intervening time. If
nothing else, the rich folks would get a kick out of their flashy,
diamond-coated electric shavers and things. >8-> From there it filters into
the gray market pretty readily.

Gotta agree with you about the Panther Assault Cannon, though. That's still
not something you'd mount on the rack in the ol' pickup.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 41
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:13:44 -0500
On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:51:57 PDT "Drea O'Dare" <dreaodare@*******.COM>
writes:
>>Hi I was wondering if anybody knows how much it costs to coat a Katana
with
>>Dikote? Also if you know the rough area of the Katana? Thanx

> Sorry Ivan, but I gotta get something offa my chest about dikoting.
>Everyone and their mother has something dikoted these days! What the
>heck's this? Dikoting's supposed to be rare, It's supposed to be
>expensive as all hell, and well, not regular. But now, it's like people
>got their friggin' toenails dikoted. It's like PACs. Everyone and
>their brother has that too. Makes me annoyed enough to beat some
>heads.

You'll be happy to know that noone in my group has either of the above.
(Thought they're trying to get Dikote ...) The problem is that Dikoting
is severely underpriced. For example ... I believe someone said that a
katana should be about 90 cm x 4 cm ... that's 360 cm. That makes the
base price for Dikoting 3600 nuyen. Factor in Street Index and you get
36,000 nuyen. Sure that's pricey but it's not so outrageous as to make
it rare. Now, if you want to double (72k) or quadruble (154k) the price,
it's more reasonable. Also, I don't think most people take the temporary
nature into account (IOW, they ignore it.).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 42
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:23:30 GMT
>So my guess is that dikoting would take off a bit in the intervening time. If
>nothing else, the rich folks would get a kick out of their flashy,
>diamond-coated electric shavers and things. >8-> From there it filters into
>the gray market pretty readily.

I don't agree.

That's not from a realism point of view, but as a GM. Dikote is, IMO,
meant as a fairly hard-to-get bonus. It would be counterproductive to treat it
as something you can get on the hardware store down at the corner.

We see a few items upgrading - the Ares laser rifle, for instance, dropping
200% in price in two years, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Another detail is that I prefer a gaming world which is consistent. It would
suck to be a player if, one day, the GM says a thing is hard to get and makes
the runner go through hell to get it, and a few sessions later he can
buy that at the street corner for a nickel and dime, don't you think?

From a realism viewpoint, you could say that whatever Dikote techniques that
peter down into the streets will be part of the SOTA curve, while the
Dikote of Shadowtech represents the cutting edge treatment as of 2060 -
that's what SOTA's for, after all.

Regards,
Fade

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 43
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:36:49 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-19 17:04:18 EDT, you write:

<< was wondering if anybody knows how much it costs to coat a Katana with
Dikote? Also if you know the rough area of the Katana? >>

In general, thats the GM's decision. In the game I am playing, he charged a
charecter 2,500, or 2.5 times the price. Going by the area of a katana yeild
about the same price, as the blade lenght is about a meter, and from what I
recall its about 10 cm in lenght, so both sides would add about 2.5 k to the
price.
Message no. 44
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:07:12 -0500
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 8:08 PM

>Gotta agree with you about the Panther Assault Cannon, though. That's
>still not something you'd mount on the rack in the ol' pickup.

C'mon, Steve, where's your sense of adventure? <g>

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 45
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:09:34 -0400
Quoting Rune Fostervoll (runefo@***.UIO.NO):
<Some historical detail about the katana snipped>

> Well, dikote is a layering of diamond. While extremely hard, it is basically
> diamond, which is as brittle as crystal glass. (Only a LOT harder so it
> takes a lot more to make it shatter.). In europe iron swords were hard
> and brittle. They held an edge real well, but they shattered. Steel swords,
> also european, were flexible but they did not hold an edge well. Folding the
> steel gave the unique quality of being both flexible AND holding an edge,
> a technique used in the making of katanas. I guess you can see where I'm
> going here - dikote is hard, true, but also inflexible and brittle, like
> diamond. If you put that on a flexible blade, it will crack and flake off
> at the drop of a hat. If you put it on an inflexible blade, it will stay
> on a lot better but it has a chance of shattering.

Hmm. I find Dikote sort of improbable just on general principle, but
I'm not a materials scientist, so I can't say for sure. At a thickness
of a few molecules, though, which is how I think it was described, I'd
see wear being a more serious problem than shattering.
Absent Dikote, inflexible weapons, I believe, have a greater
problem with getting bent than they do with shattering. However, I'm
not an expert on this. I'd like to recommend a few articles by someone
who IS an expert, though, because while you know a lot about katanas,
I think the European side of your sword-history has been neglected :)
If you're interested, check out:

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/nobest.htm
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/hype.htm

These are articles comparing the designs of various swords, and
looking a bit at how and why they came about, that you might find
informative. They're by Hank Reinhardt, who's a swordsmith himself, a
founding member of the SCA, and a very famous (well, within the circle
of people who care) expert on European swordcraft.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 46
From: Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:26:49 -0500
At 09:07 PM 10/19/98 -0500, Patrick Goodman wrote:

>From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
>Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 8:08 PM
>
>>Gotta agree with you about the Panther Assault Cannon, though. That's
>>still not something you'd mount on the rack in the ol' pickup.
>
>C'mon, Steve, where's your sense of adventure? <g>
>
>--

Hehe, The deadliest weapon in the world, a redneck with a PAC and a pickup
truck. :)

BlueMule
Message no. 47
From: Sempai Arishu <radowshun@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:49:25 PDT
>Gotta agree with you about the Panther Assault Cannon, though. That's
still
>not something you'd mount on the rack in the ol' pickup.
You aint ever bin ta UCAS have ya kiddo.....legitimate sporting
firearm i told the Lonestar, my right i told the Lonestar, sure it
coulda bin a johnson i was huntin. But huntin's huntin an it mah right i
says mah RIGHT.
<wipes drool away from mouth>
Sempai


Question?
Questioningly questioning a question,
is the question answered questioned
or the question questioned answered?
just a question......


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Message no. 48
From: Sempai Arishu <radowshun@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:52:25 PDT
>Another detail is that I prefer a gaming world which is consistent. It
would
>suck to be a player if, one day, the GM says a thing is hard to get and
makes
>the runner go through hell to get it, and a few sessions later he can
>buy that at the street corner for a nickel and dime, don't you think?
for the player it might suck, but it is the way of the world that one
day doing something is like ice sculpting in hell and the next its like
stealing nuyen from a johnson. Its life, live with it.
Sempai

Question?
Questioningly questioning a question,
is the question answered questioned
or the question questioned answered?
just a question......


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Message no. 49
From: Sempai Arishu <radowshun@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:59:17 PDT
>Also, I don't think most people take the temporary
>nature into account (IOW, they ignore it.).
uhh forgive my ignorance, but how is diamond temporary?
Humbly
Sempai

Question?
Questioningly questioning a question,
is the question answered questioned
or the question questioned answered?
just a question......


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Message no. 50
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:13:39 +1000
Sempai writes:
> >Also, I don't think most people take the temporary
> >nature into account (IOW, they ignore it.).
> uhh forgive my ignorance, but how is diamond temporary?

It breaks. Dikote coating is only good for a couple of blows, and then the
coating is broken.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 51
From: greg basa <demipop@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:28:30 -0400
>Ivan Cappiello wrote:
>>
>> Hi I was wondering if anybody knows how much it costs to coat a Katana
with
>> Dikote? Also if you know the rough area of the Katana? Thanx
>
>A katana's blade is (I *think* -- hardly experienced in this area, so if
>my estimates are off, someone who knows should smack upside the head:)
>about an inch (approx. 2.54cm) in width and about 26 to 27 inches (66 to
>68.5 cm, about) by (I *think*) an eighth to a quarter of an inch thick
>(0.32 to 0.64 cm, give or take a few significant figures). That makes
>the surface area *about* (err... ([l*w]+[w*h]+[l*h])*2...) 279.15 to
>293.45 cm^2. Dikote's something like 10K nuyen per 100 cm^2 (IIRC, my
>books are out of arm's reach and I need to boot into Windows 15 minutes
>ago:).
>If you have (or can borrow) Shadowtech, you can find info on Dikote in
>there.


From my personal experience, a katana is less than one square meter in all.
I'm not kidding! It is exactly--or less than--one meter (counting the
nakago--or tang, which is underneath the handle) long in most cases, and
less than three centimeters wide, using the mune as a reference point. You
can actually get two katanas done for the price of one. Note that in my
game, proper katana etiquette requires: Etiquette: Japanese (Bushido), Armed
Combat: Swords: Katana, and AC:S:Katana B/R. The Japanese language helps,
but isn't always necessary.

One of my SR2 characters (guess what he was) started off with a dikoted
customized katana, but he had all of the plates dikoted in the beginning of
the process, then re-dikoted on the finished product. Expensive as hell, no
real game extras (I'm no rules lawyer), but it was something special.
However, can anyone give me some thoughts as to what'd happen to a katana if
each of the steel plates (the usual count is three to five, I believe) were
dikoted first, then hammered (putting diamond into the steel?), then forged,
then re-dikoted, then polished and finished, then re-dikoted again? Me, I
just said, "dikoted sword, there does my D priority, end of story."

And [I think] sharpening a katana is a complicated process that
(traditionally) involves polishing stones of varying grades of grit (some
people now use sandpaper). It's nowhere near as easy as a grinding wheel,
because you have to rub these stones over every square inch of the blade,
preserving the layers and the patterns in the hamon, from the highest grade
to the lowest (or was that backwards?), and *slowly*. A good sword polisher
can charge as much as $5,000 for his services, and even more for a rare
and/or expensive katana. However, this has the annoying habit of wearing a
katana down, and giving a sword a serious polishing isn't something that is
done very often (and the better the polisher, the less wear the sword
suffers, hence their high prices), usually every five to ten years, if even
that. Swords can be given a light polish every month, but one must be
careful; in my game (still SR2), a Katana B/R skill of 3 is needed to give a
sword a casual polish without any errors; a Katana B/R skill of 8 is needed
to give a sword a serious polish on the $3,000-$5,000 scale...it'll just
take a month or so. Using polishing stones on a dikoted katana kills the
coating, no doubt.
Message no. 52
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:34:46 -0500
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 11:16 PM

>> >Also, I don't think most people take the temporary
>> >nature into account (IOW, they ignore it.).
>> uhh forgive my ignorance, but how is diamond temporary?
>
>It breaks. Dikote coating is only good for a couple of blows, and then
>the coating is broken.

You exaggerate, sir. There's nothing in the description of the coating that
suggests it's that fragile; in fact, quite the opposite is implied in the
actual description of Dikote. Even Hatchetman's shadowtalk comment about
the stuff wearing off in six months is supposition and hearsay. If we can
take Hatchetman at his word, and the coating does only last about six
months, that's still considerably more than a couple of blows.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 53
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:30:44 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-20 00:37:19 EDT, you write:

<< You exaggerate, sir. There's nothing in the description of the coating
that
suggests it's that fragile; in fact, quite the opposite is implied in the
actual description of Dikote. Even Hatchetman's shadowtalk comment about
the stuff wearing off in six months is supposition and hearsay. If we can
take Hatchetman at his word, and the coating does only last about six
months, that's still considerably more than a couple of blows. >>

Personally, Ive viewed the Dikote treatment as permanent, myself. It can,
however, only be applied to metals that can withstand high temperatures for a
period of time, such as Mele weapons and or some armors. Which is a good
thing, because I was thinking about how dikoting the various parts might
affect a handgun, and came to the decision that it was a BAD THING (tm).
basicly, the diamond coating makes the surface smooth, right? ergo, less
friction means more recoil since not as much energy is involved in moving the
action. Not to mention that the power would probobly drop for the same
reason, because more of the gasses would escape out the rear of the chamber as
the action worked instead of propelling the round out the barrel.

Any other opinions? How might I best represent this in a game, to pull the
plug of some munchkin who wanted one?
Message no. 54
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:39:29 +0200
According to Rune Fostervoll, at 1:23 on 20 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> I don't agree.
>
> That's not from a realism point of view, but as a GM. Dikote is, IMO,
> meant as a fairly hard-to-get bonus. It would be counterproductive to treat it
> as something you can get on the hardware store down at the corner.

I'm not so sure. Dikote isn't all that hard to get, but it takes time and
a lot of money -- those last two are the main things, going by the
Availability and Street Index figures for it. The Availability TN is only
a 6, which shouldn't be too much of a problem; the two weeks needed to
actually find it and get the stuff applied is quite long, OTOH.

> Another detail is that I prefer a gaming world which is consistent. It would
> suck to be a player if, one day, the GM says a thing is hard to get and makes
> the runner go through hell to get it, and a few sessions later he can
> buy that at the street corner for a nickel and dime, don't you think?

For something as established as dikoting (it's been around for years),
yes. For items that are just becoming available, though, it's another
matter. My campaign is set in late 2050 ATM, so the PCs just recently have
gotten access to the Street Samurai Catalog, but I've raised the
Availability TN and time to reflect that the stuff in the book isn't
readily available yet. Over the next few months (game time) those will
drop to the standard values, making the gear easier to get.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A grizzle scene on my electron beam told a story about human rights.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 55
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:43:32 -0400
On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Steve Collins wrote:

<snip math>
->On a related note how the heck would you go about sharpening the blade
->after it eventually becomes dull.

Why would it dull? It's covered in diamond. It might chip the
diamond off and then start on the blade, but the blade itself would be
protected by the diamond until the diamond is 'shaved' off..

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 56
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:16:00 -0400
On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Robert Watkins wrote:

->Sempai writes:
->> >Also, I don't think most people take the temporary
->> >nature into account (IOW, they ignore it.).
->> uhh forgive my ignorance, but how is diamond temporary?
->
->It breaks. Dikote coating is only good for a couple of blows, and then the
->coating is broken.

I suppose it'd also depend on how hard the blows are. How about a
resistance test from the blade itself from each blow it lands? I'd
reccomend 10 dice, and give it a condition monitor. When 10 boxes are
reached, the coating is gone beyond usefulness.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 57
From: WANKA SELF <self67@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:51:40 PDT
I believe a standard katana is approx. 1 m long by 4 cm wide by .5 cm
thick. That works out to 200cm, and Diakote is 1000yen per 1000cm, if I
remember correctly.

Wanka

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Message no. 58
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:10:38 -0400
At 09:26 PM 10/19/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Hehe, The deadliest weapon in the world, a redneck with a PAC and a pickup
>truck. :)

Almost, but not quite...throw in a a bottle or two of Crazy Horse, a
twelve-pack of Miller High Life and/or Jack Daniels, THEN you've got the
deadliest weapon in the world...

;-)

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 59
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:21:44 -0400
> I believe a standard katana is approx. 1 m long by 4 cm wide by .5 cm
> thick. That works out to 200cm, and Diakote is 1000yen per 1000cm, if I
> remember correctly.
>
>
100cm x 4cm = 400cm2 (one side)
100cm x 4cm = 400cm2 (other side)

400cm2 + 400cm2 = 800cm2

Thickness is so small as to add minimal surface area.

Quote that I heard was $1000/100cm2.

This yields $8000. Multiplied by a street index of 10 = 80,000
nuyen.

This was all done before but I guess no one saw it...
Message no. 60
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:38:34 +0200
According to bryan.covington@****.COM, at 12:21 on 20 Oct 98, the word on the street
was...

> > I believe a standard katana is approx. 1 m long by 4 cm wide by .5 cm
> > thick. That works out to 200cm, and Diakote is 1000yen per 1000cm, if I
> > remember correctly.
> >
> 100cm x 4cm = 400cm2 (one side)
> 100cm x 4cm = 400cm2 (other side)
>
> 400cm2 + 400cm2 = 800cm2

What the original poster calculated above appears to be the volume, if a
katana were a simple geometrical shape. Two problems there: 1) it isn't,
and 2) dikote is on the outside so it's the area that's important, not the
volume :)

> Thickness is so small as to add minimal surface area.

That's the case for most edged weapons, yes...

> Quote that I heard was $1000/100cm2.

True, says Shadowtech.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A grizzle scene on my electron beam told a story about human rights.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 61
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:00:23 GMT
Sean wrote:
<*snip some of the stuff I wrote*>
> Hmm. I find Dikote sort of improbable just on general principle, but
>I'm not a materials scientist, so I can't say for sure.
Dikote, on its own, is actually fairly realistic, but its game effect isn't.

>I'd see wear being a more serious problem than shattering.
*nod* I doubt 21th century swords would shatter.. at least ordinarily.
(Unless muscle - augmented trolls ordinarily use swords, which, I guess,
they do.).

> Absent Dikote, inflexible weapons, I believe, have a greater
>problem with getting bent than they do with shattering. However, I'm
>not an expert on this. I'd like to recommend a few articles by someone
>who IS an expert, though, because while you know a lot about katanas,
>I think the European side of your sword-history has been neglected :)

Well, most of that stuff was from a BBC programme I saw a few weeks ago.
It was fairly well presented, but focused heavily on the katana. Comparing
persian (500BC) metallurgy with 1500AD metallurgy is also fairly unfair,
but they did it, so I thought I could. ;)

I might use the word 'inflexible' wrong - I meant hard, not 'without spring'.
(So why didn't I say 'hard'? Good question. NEXT!).

> If you're interested, check out:
>
> http://www.thehaca.com/essays/nobest.htm
> http://www.thehaca.com/essays/hype.htm
>
> These are articles comparing the designs of various swords, and
>looking a bit at how and why they came about, that you might find
>informative.

Thanks for pointing them out. They were interesting and informative.
They, fortunately, support my main point better than I did. :)
The harder the sword is the more likely it is to nick or chip, and you don't
get harder than Dikote. So Dikote, on a sword, would not last through many
fights... even though, while in those fights it still lasts, it is very good.

(See last paragraph of the hype essay.).

Hatchetman's example was 6 months, but, unfortunately, that says nothing of
the sword's use during those six months. It could mean anything between six
months of heavy use - 3-4 fights a week - or six months of lying on a shelf.
My impression would be it would last a number of fights before it was too
nicked or chipped to be useful, but exactly how many that is I do not know.
I'd say somewhere between 10-20, and if used in fencing or against heavy
armor it'd be drastically reduced.

The essay by Matthew Galas, Esq. was also interesting. It was about the
development of fencing in Europe - claiming, apparently well supported, that
fencing as a martial art was studied in Germany, and the masters of the time
taught more weapon skills than fencing to produce well - rounded warriors
experts in all the weapons of the battlefield. Only in the renaissance did
fencing become a martial art of swords alone, where any other fighting style
was illegal by rule in fencing. (Grabbing swords, wrestling etc. was illegal,
which gave rapiers an unfair advantage - a rapier, with no edge, is easy to
grab.(ref. 'nobest').

>I think the European side of your sword-history has been neglected :)

I see and read the smiley. Suffice to say european sword history is far
less focused upon in popular media... I've read more on europen sword history
than japanese, but the sum total is more japanese due to osmosis. I suspect
part of the media, and the japenese's, focus on the katana as a weapon is due
to its value as a SYMBOL rather than its practical usefulness. That is also
the reason it has remained unchanged for so long, while european swords went
through a whirlstorm of development - a symbol, tradition, doesn't change. In
europe the sword was primarily a weapon, and thus adapted to changing
battlefield conditions and metallurgy - the katana didn't.
(See, I learnt something from reading the essays and connected it to my prior
knowledge! Aren't I good? ;)
(Yes, I'm teaching in a course on analysis and project work right now.).

Also quoting:
"Finally, dispelling the misconception that medieval swordsmen relied on
strength alone, Doebringer states that a weakling using [fencing master]
Lichtenauer's art would be as likely to win as a strong man."

This has some relevance to another current discussion somewhere.

Regards,
Fade

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 62
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:01:50 -0700
:Which is a good
:thing, because I was thinking about how dikoting the various parts might
:affect a handgun, and came to the decision that it was a BAD THING (tm).
:basicly, the diamond coating makes the surface smooth, right? ergo, less
:friction means more recoil since not as much energy is involved in moving
the
:action. Not to mention that the power would probobly drop for the same
:reason, because more of the gasses would escape out the rear of the
chamber as
:the action worked instead of propelling the round out the barrel.

As far as I know, part-to part friction is not an useful or important
component in a gun mechanisms function. So, IF dikote reduced friction
signifigantly, it wouldn't hurt performance in the ways you say (and scuh
problems could be fixed with stonger springs, etc.). Besides, such
factors would not affect SS weapons like revolvers, bolt actions, pump
guns, or any "break" loading weapon.

:Any other opinions? How might I best represent this in a game, to pull
the
:plug of some munchkin who wanted one?


The common "Dikote" munch idea is the BARREL or BULLETS- decreased
friction ' speed = damage, right? Well, decreased friction also means
less bullet spin, meaning poor range / accuracy. Its even worse if the
bullets are dikoted and the barrel rifling can't cut into them... It
might, just barely, make a difference in un-rifled guns, like shotguns, I
dunno.

Mongoose
Message no. 63
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:01:19 -0400
Mongoose wrote:
>
> The common "Dikote" munch idea is the BARREL or BULLETS- decreased
> friction ' speed = damage, right? Well, decreased friction also means
> less bullet spin, meaning poor range / accuracy. Its even worse if the
> bullets are dikoted and the barrel rifling can't cut into them... It
> might, just barely, make a difference in un-rifled guns, like shotguns, I
> dunno.

What about a dikoted tip on the bullet? Similar to the Teflon bullets
today, except that hardness and not decreased friction would be the
point.. Wouldn't this let you punch holes in armor that would otherwise
ignore bullets?


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 64
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:27:18 -0400
Quoting Steve Eley (sfeley@***.NET):
>
> What about a dikoted tip on the bullet? Similar to the Teflon bullets
> today, except that hardness and not decreased friction would be the
> point.. Wouldn't this let you punch holes in armor that would otherwise
> ignore bullets?
>

I don't THINK so, though I'm not really a materials buff. Diamond's
(and thus, presumably, dikote's) strength is hardness in the technical
sense - resistance to abrasion. It makes sharp things sharper both because
it's very thin at the edge, and because it's more likely to cut than be cut.
However, that doesn't necessarily imply resistance to impact, which is the
kind of 'hardness' you're talking about. You can't SCRATCH a diamond, and
they're hard to cut, but you /can/ simply smash them.
This might work for flechettes, however, which actually have sharp
points. And it'd work on arrowheads, which have both points and sharp edges.
For armor...ehh. I'm dubious about the increase in structural integrity
that Shadowtech discusses. As someone else said here, in response to a poorly
worded statement on my part, the CONCEPT of Dikote as a process is fine, but
some of the game mechanics are odd. I'd basically think of Dikote as being
similar to a laquer or resin or sealant, sort of a finishing coat on the outside
of an object that makes it slicker, harder (scratch-resistant, etc), seals
out moisture, and so forth. While it would PROTECT the object, I don't know
how much stronger (in terms of supported weight, resistance to impact, etc)
it would make it. It'd add something, certainly, but IMHO, not NEARLY as
much as they describe.

Interesting composite material: Dikoted ceramics. The ultimate glaze.

--Sean


--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 65
From: Mike Elkins <Mike_Elkins@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:42:16 -0400
>However, can anyone give me some thoughts as to what'd happen to a katana
if
>each of the steel plates (the usual count is three to five, I believe)
were
>dikoted first, then hammered (putting diamond into the steel?), then
forged,
>then re-dikoted, then polished and finished, then re-dikoted again? Me, I
>just said, "dikoted sword, there does my D priority, end of story."

Can't be done. The makeing of the composite steel like in a katana
requires forge-welding the layers together. This is a very tricky process.
The high carbon steel does not like to bond with the low carbon steel.
Also, the temperature window between where the metals can be joined and
where the high carbon steel starts burning is very narrow: very easy to
ruin several weeks work in just a few seconds of inattentiveness. Anyway,
putting anything except flux (boron sand, which melts away and leaves a
clean surface) between the layers just will mean that they don't bond. If
they don't bond, you don't have composite steel.

And by the way, the three to five layers are only for the first fold. It
goes up geometrically after that, ending in several thousand layers.

Double-Domed Mike
Probably the only listmember with hands-on-experience with forging
composite steel.
Message no. 66
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:50:02 -0400
> > The common "Dikote" munch idea is the BARREL or BULLETS-
> decreased
> > friction ' speed = damage, right? Well, decreased friction also
> means
> > less bullet spin, meaning poor range / accuracy. Its even worse if
> the
> > bullets are dikoted and the barrel rifling can't cut into them...
> It
> > might, just barely, make a difference in un-rifled guns, like
> shotguns, I
> > dunno.
>
> What about a dikoted tip on the bullet? Similar to the Teflon bullets
> today, except that hardness and not decreased friction would be the
> point.. Wouldn't this let you punch holes in armor that would
> otherwise
> ignore bullets?
>
Yeah you could do it with a sabot round. I think it
would be approaching the point of diminishing returns there. That is I
really can't see a dikoted sabot punching much harder than a standard
one (APDS ammo). It might ignore another point of armor or something
but this is really gonna be splitting hairs. It might be a neat thing
for roleplay though...

"So what? Its a fraggin bullet."
"Nah man, you don't get it. It's a DIKOTED bullet."
"So?"
"You just don't get it man...."
Message no. 67
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:55:03 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-20 03:13:53 EDT, you write:

<< t breaks. Dikote coating is only good for a couple of blows, and then the
coating is broken. >>

Bsszzt. wrong answer. I know it says that in the shadowtalk at the bottom of
the page, but that is just that, talk. It is not official game mechanics. IF
Dikote wore off, it would be part of the offical rules up above in the actual
entry.

In addtion to that, Diamond is one of the hardest substances known to man. It
takes a great deal of force and something else as hard as diamond to break it.

I suppose if you really wanted to be a summbridge, you could rule it does
that, IN YOUR CAMPAING. but its not gonna happen in any campaing of mine.
Message no. 68
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:31:53 -0400
> << t breaks. Dikote coating is only good for a couple of blows, and
> then the
> coating is broken. >>
>
> Bsszzt. wrong answer. I know it says that in the shadowtalk at the
> bottom of
> the page, but that is just that, talk. It is not official game
> mechanics. IF
> Dikote wore off, it would be part of the offical rules up above in the
> actual
> entry.
>
> In addtion to that, Diamond is one of the hardest substances known to
> man. It
> takes a great deal of force and something else as hard as diamond to
> break it.
>
Not to burst your bubble dude but jewelers cut diamonds
DAILY with a quick tap from a hammer on a chisel.
Message no. 69
From: Drea O'Dare <dreaodare@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:52:40 PDT
> Not to burst your bubble dude but jewelers cut diamonds
>DAILY with a quick tap from a hammer on a chisel.

Not to burst yours, but those "chisels" are diamond tipped. Watch Mr
Rogers, dude. No kidding - it was on Mr Rogers. Seriously though.
only that that *cuts* diamonds are other diamonds. However, you CAN
shatter a diamond with a sledgehammer. It just takes a good swing.

Pink`

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Message no. 70
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:59:12 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-20 12:11:32 EDT, you write:

<< Almost, but not quite...throw in a a bottle or two of Crazy Horse, a
twelve-pack of Miller High Life and/or Jack Daniels, THEN you've got the
deadliest weapon in the world... >>

Famous redneck last words:

"Hey, Bubba, Watch this...."
Message no. 71
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:59:15 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-20 16:02:55 EDT, you write:

<< What about a dikoted tip on the bullet? Similar to the Teflon bullets
today, except that hardness and not decreased friction would be the
point.. Wouldn't this let you punch holes in armor that would otherwise
ignore bullets? >>

Not in my campaing. Why? I can pull the answer right out of shadowtech. You
are subjecting the materials to a super hot plasma. Most bullets are lead,
and would melt under the heat, not to mention the fact that it would be nigh
unto impossilble (Not to mention a waste of material) to just coat the tip
under such conditions.
Message no. 72
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:03:34 -0400
Quoting Micheal Feeney (Starrngr@***.COM):
> In addtion to that, Diamond is one of the hardest substances known to man. It
> takes a great deal of force and something else as hard as diamond to break it.

...or a light tap from a jeweller's hammer in just the right place.

Diamond is the hardest natural substance known to man (at least,
to this man). However, HARDEST != STRONGEST. Diamond is hard as hell to
cut or scratch, but it CAN be broken. Reasonably easilly, in fact, though I've
never given it a try...it'd be an expensive hobby.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 73
From: John Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:52:49 -0400
Drea O'Dare wrote:
>
> > Not to burst your bubble dude but jewelers cut diamonds
> >DAILY with a quick tap from a hammer on a chisel.
>
> Not to burst yours, but those "chisels" are diamond tipped. Watch Mr
> Rogers, dude. No kidding - it was on Mr Rogers. Seriously though.
> only that that *cuts* diamonds are other diamonds. However, you CAN
> shatter a diamond with a sledgehammer. It just takes a good swing.

*sigh* Have neither of you bothered to study high school chemistry?
Diamonds are *crystals*. Like other crystals, they have certain lines
along which they can be sheared. You don't 'cut' diamonds with those
chisels -- that would take a lot more than a simple tap. The jeweler is
applying force along one of those shear lines in such a way that he gets
the diamond to come apart where he wants it to (ideally -- if the force
is applied wrong, it'll shear wrong, which could easily be disastrous).

That said, have a nice day:)

--
John Pederson, otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
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and legs! JERK!" --Sluggy Freelance
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------
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bullet!
Sergeant-at-Arms and Greatest Swordsman of the Frinch Army
Message no. 74
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:00:49 -0400
Micheal Feeney wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-10-20 16:02:55 EDT, [I wrote]:
>
> << What about a dikoted tip on the bullet?
>
> Not in my campaing. Why? I can pull the answer right out of shadowtech. You
> are subjecting the materials to a super hot plasma. Most bullets are lead,
> and would melt under the heat, not to mention the fact that it would be nigh
> unto impossilble (Not to mention a waste of material) to just coat the tip
> under such conditions.

Hmmm.. That's thinking pretty deeply inside the box, isn't it? MOST bullets
are lead. Do bullets HAVE to be made of lead? Is there some reason they
can't, say, have a stainless steel core which is dikoted, then encased in lead
so that just the tip is exposed?

Just one possibility. I wasn't asking about the feasibility of MAKING such
bullets, I'm quite sure there's a way to do it; I was asking whether, in the
opinions of folks around here who know more than I do about guns and ammo, it
would have any game effect in terms of increased penetration.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 75
From: Jonathan P Martin <devotelyapathetic@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:02:38 -0400
On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:34:13 EDT Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 98-10-20 17:56:44 EDT, you write:
>
><< A little disclaimer:
> I am not sure you quote me up there, but I've said something similar,
>so it
>goes
> for me too. You quote far too little and with the standard 'you
>write' tag
> which is meaningles.
>
> Regards,
> Fade
> >>
>
>cant really be helped, the "you write" quoter is part of the AO-Hell
>mail
>software and cant be easily changed.

Can too! Go to mail preferances and use "internet style quoting". Gives
you
the same style the this post used! Now if only AOL could get newsgroups
above
version 2.0.......

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Message no. 76
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:58:00 +0200
And so it came to happen that Bryan Covington wrote:
----------
<snip>
> > What about a dikoted tip on the bullet? Similar to the Teflon bullets
> > today, except that hardness and not decreased friction would be the
> > point.. Wouldn't this let you punch holes in armor that would
> > otherwise
> > ignore bullets?

Could be, its a bit costly to say so, but I would allow Dikote tipped
bullets to work both like APDS and AV ammo. If the PC's can afford to buy
them, grant them a little victory. And then send them the bill.
Let's say you would need 1 cm*cm per bullet (I actually cant do the math as
I dunno how long actually a bullet is, sorry no bullets in germany availabe
freely here;o)). Let's say further you would need special bullets for that
to do. As somone posted earlier you would need stainless steel or the like
for the bullet, maybe FMJ would do the trick, I am no chemistrial BTW. Lets
say the bullet you need as a basis would cost you 2 Y per piece on the
street. You could make 1000 bullets for about 2000 Y (Bullets)+ [1000
Y(Dikote)]*10 (Streetindex)000 Y. But than you would need the
equippement for that act. Or you go to your local Gunsmith who would charge
you, andwiththatIcutmyownthroat, about 2000 to 4000 Y (just a quick guess,
don't call the gunsmithing agency to flame me about that:o)) most likely
much more.
So 16000 Y for 1000 shots of APDS and AV-ammo. Sounds not that much but
there still is the fact that the group should be sweating to get the
Dikote, find a gunsmith with the skill and then after all thos hazards
still is going to find out that those bullets arent that well ballanced as
Diamond not that lightweight if I recall correctly. So the bullets arent
that accurate at longer ranges, ocasionaly just "Plop" against the vehicle
as the Bullet tip does not hit properly and/or shaters the Diamond/Dikoted
tip and so on and so forth.

<snip>
> "So what? Its a fraggin bullet."
> "Nah man, you don't get it. It's a DIKOTED bullet."
> "So?"
> "You just don't get it man...."
"An whatcha gonna do wit dat tingie?"
"I'll shoot da tanks an da coppas in da lile coppa-choppa's!"
"But dose bullets aren't doin frag about dose car's, stupid!"
"Dat's why I ave dose DIKOTED bullets, man!"

All IMHO of course.

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 77
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:14:27 -0700
>Not in my campaing. Why? I can pull the answer right out of shadowtech. You
>are subjecting the materials to a super hot plasma. Most bullets are lead,
>and would melt under the heat, not to mention the fact that it would be nigh
>unto impossilble (Not to mention a waste of material) to just coat the tip
>under such conditions.

This again ... ;-)

In real life, you can diamond coat materials by applying a glaze and
microwaving the results. The technique of using a methane plasma is
outdated.
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 78
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:00:39 -0400
Steve Eley wrote:

Do bullets HAVE to be made of lead? Is there some reason they
> can't, say, have a stainless steel core which is dikoted, then encased in lead
> so that just the tip is exposed?

Steel jacket bullets, maybe? Dikote the steel jacket? Whoever mentioned
that the lead would melt is quite right.


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 79
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:00:43 -0400
Drea O'Dare wrote:
>
> > Not to burst your bubble dude but jewelers cut diamonds
> >DAILY with a quick tap from a hammer on a chisel.
>
> Not to burst yours, but those "chisels" are diamond tipped. Watch Mr
> Rogers, dude. No kidding - it was on Mr Rogers. Seriously though.
> only that that *cuts* diamonds are other diamonds. However, you CAN
> shatter a diamond with a sledgehammer. It just takes a good swing.
>
> Pink`

Not even a sledgehammer, Pinkers. A regular hammer will do it if you
strike it hard enough in the right place. Diamonds can take a LOT of
heat, pressure, etc (which is why them make great mechanical parts that
are subjected to loads of heat and friction...they don't wear like some
materials do) and only other diamonds will cut a diamond, as Pink said,
but they shatter quite easily.

As for diakote, well, I was under the impression that since the coating
was on a molecular level, that it would be somewhat less brittle than
the real deal...rather like teflon coating rather than actually encasing
the sword in diamond.


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 80
From: Hans Christian Koch <hans.c.koch@**.PWCGLOBAL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:30:51 +0200
That is correct. But it its prob. much harder to dikote a katana than it is
to dikote some "large" area eg. windshield or armor.
Think of fragments from a frag-bullet. Don't you think that it would be
extremly expensive to dikote all the fragments, even though the surface
isn't that big!

The Beast





WANKA SELF <self67@*******.COM> on 20-10-98 16:51:40

Please respond to Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
cc:
Subject: Re: Dikote





I believe a standard katana is approx. 1 m long by 4 cm wide by .5 cm
thick. That works out to 200cm, and Diakote is 1000yen per 1000cm, if I
remember correctly.

Wanka

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Message no. 81
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 03:47:36 -0400
>According to bryan.covington@****.COM, at 12:21 on 20 Oct 98, the word on
>the street was...
>
>> > I believe a standard katana is approx. 1 m long by 4 cm wide by .5 cm
>> > thick. That works out to 200cm, and Diakote is 1000yen per 1000cm, if I
>> > remember correctly.
>> >
>> 100cm x 4cm = 400cm2 (one side)
>> 100cm x 4cm = 400cm2 (other side)
>>
>> 400cm2 + 400cm2 = 800cm2
>
>What the original poster calculated above appears to be the volume, if a
>katana were a simple geometrical shape. Two problems there: 1) it isn't,
>and 2) dikote is on the outside so it's the area that's important, not the
>volume :)
>
>> Thickness is so small as to add minimal surface area.
>
>That's the case for most edged weapons, yes...

No I calculated the surface area pretty much exactly as was done here,
figure out the area of each side and sum them. I used three sides with
the 3rd one being a composite of the edged and non edged sides as a
Katana has only one edge and the opposite side is actually fairly thick
(compaired to the edge that is). Also especially with true Katanas there
will be some change from sword to sword as each one has slightly
different measurements but 800 cm^2 makes a good starting point possibly
going down to around 500 cm^2 for a short sword (like say a Roman
Gladius) to as much as 1800 to 2000 cm^2 for any of the various
greatswords, with models made custom for trolls going as high as 2500
cm^2. Now if you want the maximum bang for your buck Dikote a Pole Arm.
The Blade would typically be only 30 cm by about 10 cm giving it a
surface area of around 600 to 650 cm^2 with a base damage of S (raised to
D by the Dikote) and 2 points of reach. You also don't have as many
problems making the blade stiff as it won't flex that much (that's what
the pole is for) eliminating some of the problems that have been brought
up in other posts but aren't represented in the game. The only drawback
is that it is difficult to use in tight spaces, not impossible (I have
known a few SCA fighters that use poles quite well in close) but it
requires a fair degree of skill.
Message no. 82
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:55:40 +0200
According to Jett, at 22:00 on 20 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Steve Eley wrote:
>
> Do bullets HAVE to be made of lead? Is there some reason they
> > can't, say, have a stainless steel core which is dikoted, then encased in lead
> > so that just the tip is exposed?

Armor-piercing ammo often has a steel core inside a softer metal bullet;
the tip need not even be exposed. I don't see why the core couldn't be
dikoted to slightly increase armor penetration.

> Steel jacket bullets, maybe? Dikote the steel jacket?

Steel jackets are bad for the inside of the barrel, though dikoting might
change that slightly (I don't suppose anybody here has done any RL tests
on diamond-coated steel-jacketed bullets? :)

> Whoever mentioned that the lead would melt is quite right.

I'll leave this to Adam Getchell, though I can predict his answer...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A grizzle scene on my electron beam told a story about human rights.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 83
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:57:24 -0400
On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Micheal Feeney wrote:

->In a message dated 98-10-20 16:02:55 EDT, you write:
->
-><< What about a dikoted tip on the bullet? Similar to the Teflon bullets
-> today, except that hardness and not decreased friction would be the
-> point.. Wouldn't this let you punch holes in armor that would otherwise
-> ignore bullets? >>
->
->Not in my campaing. Why? I can pull the answer right out of shadowtech. You
->are subjecting the materials to a super hot plasma. Most bullets are lead,
->and would melt under the heat, not to mention the fact that it would be nigh
->unto impossilble (Not to mention a waste of material) to just coat the tip
->under such conditions.

Hmmm..... I wonder what would happen if you shot a slug through a
super hot plasma..... }:-)
On the subject of Dikoting, it's come up only a few times in our
game, and usually only on a mundane Katana or Sword. I make my PCs pay
through the nose to get it (it's not uncommon for them to pay 100,000 for
a dikoted Katana) and when they get it it's not what they thought it would
be at first. They later turned towards anchoring elemental manipulations
to weapon foci..... You think you have problems with Dikote? }:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 84
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:08:34 -0400
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Steadfast wrote:

->Could be, its a bit costly to say so, but I would allow Dikote tipped
->bullets to work both like APDS and AV ammo. If the PC's can afford to buy
->them, grant them a little victory. And then send them the bill.

Who's to say that this is not already how they make APDS Ammo or
AV Ammo? I realize the manufacturing process on APDS ammo is not detailed
so it may incorporate this process.

<snip remainder>

The cost you came up with was roughly 160 / 10 rds, not having the
books handy myself, isn't this close to APDS with street index factored
in?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 85
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:04:52 EDT
In a message dated 10/21/98 7:59:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> Who's to say that this is not already how they make APDS Ammo or
> AV Ammo? I realize the manufacturing process on APDS ammo is not detailed
> so it may incorporate this process.

I really doubt it, considerinmg such ammo exists today and it does not involve
dikoting. I can not see Dikoting as a cost effective means of making bullets
armor piercing.

> The cost you came up with was roughly 160 / 10 rds, not having the
> books handy myself, isn't this close to APDS with street index factored
> in?

The rounds come to 280 after street index is factored in.
Message no. 86
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:10:34 +0200
And so it came to happen that Fixer wrote:
----------
> ->Could be, its a bit costly to say so, but I would allow Dikote tipped
> ->bullets to work both like APDS and AV ammo. If the PC's can afford to
buy
> ->them, grant them a little victory. And then send them the bill.
>
> Who's to say that this is not already how they make APDS Ammo or
> AV Ammo? I realize the manufacturing process on APDS ammo is not
detailed
> so it may incorporate this process.
>
> <snip remainder>
>
> The cost you came up with was roughly 160 / 10 rds, not having
the
> books handy myself, isn't this close to APDS with street index factored
> in?

Darn, you're right! And it is even cheaper (APDS 240 / 10 rds. with SI
figured in)!! That can not be. Consider my above told about AV ammo and
APDS ammo in one neglected.
Should have thought about it earlier.

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 87
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:21:27 -0400
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, M. Sean Martinez wrote:

->In a message dated 10/21/98 7:59:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
->fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:
->
->> Who's to say that this is not already how they make APDS Ammo or
->> AV Ammo? I realize the manufacturing process on APDS ammo is not detailed
->> so it may incorporate this process.
->
->I really doubt it, considerinmg such ammo exists today and it does not involve
->dikoting. I can not see Dikoting as a cost effective means of making bullets
->armor piercing.

Let's look at the next paragraph then....

->> The cost you came up with was roughly 160 / 10 rds, not having the
->> books handy myself, isn't this close to APDS with street index factored
->> in?
->
->The rounds come to 280 after street index is factored in.

If APDS ammo, on the street, is 280 Nuyen / box of ten, and the
dikoted ammo, on the street, is 160 Nuyen / box of ten, which becomes more
cost effective if both are going to be made 'armor piercing'?
My players, if they should ask to dikote their bullets, will
receive a 'first, find the guy to do it and then, explain to me what
you're going to tell him about why he should do it, then explain how these
bullets are going to be cased? No, caseless rounds would explode in the
heat as the propellant is on the round itself.....'

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 88
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:15:32 -0400
Quoting Fixer (fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US):
> My players, if they should ask to dikote their bullets, will
> receive a 'first, find the guy to do it and then, explain to me what
> you're going to tell him about why he should do it, then explain how these
> bullets are going to be cased? No, caseless rounds would explode in the
> heat as the propellant is on the round itself.....'

This wouldn't really be a consideration for real manufacturing
(though it might be for shadowrunners). You just dikote the bullet before
encasing it in the propellant.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 89
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:35:02 -0400
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

->Quoting Fixer (fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US):
->> My players, if they should ask to dikote their bullets, will
->> receive a 'first, find the guy to do it and then, explain to me what
->> you're going to tell him about why he should do it, then explain how these
->> bullets are going to be cased? No, caseless rounds would explode in the
->> heat as the propellant is on the round itself.....'
->
-> This wouldn't really be a consideration for real manufacturing
->(though it might be for shadowrunners). You just dikote the bullet before
->encasing it in the propellant.

I have a tendency of making my players understand "that's a bad
idea.... continue on this line and your players will encounter bad
things." On the few occasions they didn't understand me, their characters
either died or lost magic points due to deadly injuries (did I mention my
players always play mages, nearabout?).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 90
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:39:40 -0400
Quoting Fixer (fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US):
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:
> -> This wouldn't really be a consideration for real manufacturing
> ->(though it might be for shadowrunners). You just dikote the bullet before
> ->encasing it in the propellant.
>
> I have a tendency of making my players understand "that's a bad
> idea.... continue on this line and your players will encounter bad
> things." On the few occasions they didn't understand me, their characters
> either died or lost magic points due to deadly injuries (did I mention my
> players always play mages, nearabout?).

Just to clarify, while what I described should certainly be
POSSIBLE, I still maintain that it wouldn't make the bullet armor-piercing.
I just don't think that dikote would add that much to the deformation-
resistance of a steel-cored bullet. Adding to sharpness I can see, but
bullets aren't 'sharp' per se. I suppose it would make the bullet 'slicker',
like teflon, but, well, teflon's a whole lot cheaper.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 91
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:53:38 EDT
In a message dated 10/21/98 9:12:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> If APDS ammo, on the street, is 280 Nuyen / box of ten, and the
> dikoted ammo, on the street, is 160 Nuyen / box of ten, which becomes m=
ore
> cost effective if both are going to be made 'armor piercing'?

I have not been following this thread since I dispise dikoted weapons most=
ly
because of players tendancy to believe they are a lot more powerful than =
they
are with them. (The players, not the weapons) (That and I have all the mai=
l
still in my "In-Box", gotta love procrastonation.)

That is your opinon on how much a box of Dikoted ammo would cost since I d=
o
not see a listing for dikoted bullets in the Shadowrun material. One coul=
d
easily say that a box of dikoted ammo costs 10,000¥. Is that realistic?
Probably not. Be nice if FASA gave us more guidelines to run on instead of
generalizations like how max material that dikoting can be applied to at o=
ne
time etc.

On a lot of smaller items you are going to use more materail than you woul=
d on
an object that is bigger but had the same surface area. There is always wa=
ste.

Also, if Dikoted bullets were that much more effective than APDS or AV rou=
nds,
the cost would be higher since they would be a more sought after item. Sup=
ply
and demand.

Also, why would a bullet be considered an edged weapon for dikoting purose=
s?
There is no edge on a bullet, when I run my fingers all along it I do not =
get
cut like I would with my sword, so I feel the FASA mechanic for dikoting (=
+1
damage level) is a bit wrong for a dikoted bullet. Strange that FASA did n=
ot
specfically give mechanics for dikoted bullets in shadowtech, course given=
the
process that they use it is no surprise.

I also would not think a person can dikote at home, since I could not see
using a household microwave to dikote. Metal in the microwave is not good =
for
it. Adam could tell us more :)

I also imagine that the impact of the bullet may not be good for the dikot=
ing.
It may be possible that the dikoting would shatter rendering it usless. Bu=
t
that is just one of my random thoughts.

I find it surprising that I have never heard of a RL Dikoted Bullet or eve=
n
prototype. Or is there one?

-Bandit
Message no. 92
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:53:26 -0400
> > Not to burst your bubble dude but jewelers cut
> diamonds
> >DAILY with a quick tap from a hammer on a chisel.
>
> Not to burst yours, but those "chisels" are diamond tipped. Watch
> Mr
> Rogers, dude. No kidding - it was on Mr Rogers. Seriously though.
> only that that *cuts* diamonds are other diamonds. However, you CAN
> shatter a diamond with a sledgehammer. It just takes a good swing.
>
The comment was:

"In addition to that, Diamond is one of the hardest substances
known to man. It takes a great deal of force and something else as hard
as diamond to break it."

This is untrue. You can cut diamonds with a carbide saw
(diamond saws work better obviously). You can also split it with a light
tap from a chisel, diamond tipped or not. The fact that the chisel is
diamond tipped is completely irrelevant to my point. I wasn't contesting
that. Pay attention.

It does NOT take a great deal of force to break a
diamond, period.

Ironically I am not in favor of ripping the Dikote off a players
sword every few sessions. They pay 80k for it then dammit it'll work.
Besides it's so much easier to just take the sword. No rules
discussions, no pissed off players (well maybe a little, but that's
kinda the point sometimes no? :)
Message no. 93
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Dikote
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:26:46 -0600
Ok here goes nothing.. :)

One of my players wants to buy some dikote (for a katana only) and he
thinks the equation for cost is misprint. I believe it says 1,000¥xcm3 an=
d
he does not think it should be cm3. Can anyone explain why it is cm3 if
that is correct so I can tell him. I figured you were buying it in a
container of some sort so they figured the cost in cm3.

Ed
- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
JADG Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/jadg/index.html
The 3D Ark Page: http://www.3dark.com/
Message no. 94
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:41:34 -0500
On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Ed wrote:

->Ok here goes nothing.. :)
->
->One of my players wants to buy some dikote (for a katana only) and he
->thinks the equation for cost is misprint. I believe it says 1,000¥xcm3=
and
->he does not think it should be cm3. Can anyone explain why it is cm3 if
->that is correct so I can tell him. I figured you were buying it in a
->container of some sort so they figured the cost in cm3.

You are correct according to my book. Mine says 1000 Nuyen / 100
cm^2 (Minimum 1000 Nuyen). This would, of course, be surface area.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 95
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:46:11 -0600
At 12:41 PM 11/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
> You are correct according to my book. Mine says 1000 Nuyen / 100
>cm^2 (Minimum 1000 Nuyen). This would, of course, be surface area.

Ok I did it wrong but the book I am looking in FoF says 1000¥/100cm3 not=
cm2

What book are you looking at?

Ed


- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
JADG Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/jadg/index.html
The 3D Ark Page: http://www.3dark.com/
Message no. 96
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:35:53 EST
In a message dated 98-11-01 12:45:42 EST, you write:

> Ok I did it wrong but the book I am looking in FoF says 1000¥/100cm3 not
> cm2
>
> What book are you looking at?
>
> Ed

the price of 1000y per 100cm squared is from shadowtech.its used for
determining how much it costs to cover an area with dikote. this wold be the
correct price.
Message no. 97
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:20:49 -0800
> At 12:41 PM 11/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
> > You are correct according to my book. Mine says 1000 Nuyen / 100
> >cm^2 (Minimum 1000 Nuyen). This would, of course, be surface area.
>
> Ok I did it wrong but the book I am looking in FoF says 1000¥/100cm3 not
cm2
>
> What book are you looking at?
>
> Ed

Yup, FoF is wrong. But, 1k for a cubic meter of Dikote. That's a lot of
dikote. ^_^
Message no. 98
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:41:19 +1000
Hatchetman writes:
>>> You are correct according to my book. Mine says 1000 Nuyen / 100
>>> cm^2 (Minimum 1000 Nuyen). This would, of course, be surface area.
>>
>> Ok I did it wrong but the book I am looking in FoF says 1000¥/100cm3 not
cm2
>>
>> What book are you looking at?
>
> Yup, FoF is wrong. But, 1k for a cubic meter of Dikote. That's a lot of
> dikote. ^_^

Sorry, Hatchetman...
100cm^3 != 1m^3.

Let me see... 100x100x100 = 1000000, so it's 1 million cubic centimeters to
a cubic meter. Using the FoF pricing, that would be 10 million nuY.

(I'm not sure what it would be for ShadowTech... each layer of dikote is
only a few molecules thick, so I'd imagine that there would be on the order
of a million layers)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 99
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:49:16 -0800
> > Yup, FoF is wrong. But, 1k for a cubic meter of Dikote. That's a lot of
> > dikote. ^_^
>
> Sorry, Hatchetman...
> 100cm^3 != 1m^3.
>
> Let me see... 100x100x100 = 1000000, so it's 1 million cubic centimeters
to
> a cubic meter. Using the FoF pricing, that would be 10 million nuY.
>
> (I'm not sure what it would be for ShadowTech... each layer of dikote is
> only a few molecules thick, so I'd imagine that there would be on the
order
> of a million layers)
>
> --
> .sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

Yeah, but if you take it straight from FoF, it says that 100 cubic
centimeters cost 1,000¥. Once again, that's a lot of Dikote. But you're
right, using the correct costs, it is 10 mil.
Message no. 100
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikote
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 03:05:11 +0000
Ed wrote:
> Ok here goes nothing.. :)
>
> One of my players wants to buy some dikote (for a katana only) and he
> thinks the equation for cost is misprint. I believe it says 1,000¥xcm=
3 and
> he does not think it should be cm3. Can anyone explain why it is cm3 if
> that is correct so I can tell him. I figured you were buying it in a
> container of some sort so they figured the cost in cm3.

Okay, I'd love to be of more help, but some schmuck ran off with all
the fun books (Shadotwech, FoF and Cybertech). But I remember the
basics. ;)

It is described under chemicals in Shadowtech.

Dikote is a process where an item is carbon coated under extreme
conditions (pressure, heat) leaving an extremely thin diamond layer.
It's not something you can apply on your own, it's a (supposedly)
rare procedure demanding fairly special gear. (The procedure has
availability 10 IIRC, similar S.I.). The heat and pressure might be
harmful to whatever is coated. There was a recent discussion on
applying dikote to swords, you might want to check logs on it.

Since it's added in a thin layer, and cannot be done from a
tube/container of the sort you're likely to buy, it's most likely a
misprint and should be m^2.

While the availability and Street Index is very high, it has been
argued that it should be lower since the procedure is 8? years old or
so in the SR world in 2060. I don't agree but many do, so it is worth
considering.

Regards,
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 101
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Dikote
Date: Thu May 2 05:00:03 2002
According to Christian Casavant, on Wed, 01 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> PS. And what is dikote?

It's a diamond coating, originally introduced in Shadowtech and now appearing in
Man & Machine (p. 111).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Begint eer ge bezint.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 102
From: frontendchaos@**********.com (Jim Montgomery)
Subject: dikote
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:20:00 -0400
> Must be the way these new carps are Dikoted :).

What is dikote?

Jim
Message no. 103
From: Jeffrey.T.Dougherty@********.edu (Jeffrey T Dougherty)
Subject: dikote
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:22:45 -0400 (EDT)
A strikingly fun chemical process developed, I believe by your friends at
Ares Macrotechnology ("Changing the world one gun at a time"). Basically,
you get to coat your sword, coat, carp, ballpoint ben, etc. with a thin
layer of diamond, making it do silly amounts of damage in close combat.

And as for the changes in the sonic properties...I blame the limited
genetic stock I had to use for my SINless carp population.

Jeff D.

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Jim Montgomery wrote:

> > Must be the way these new carps are Dikoted :).
>
> What is dikote?
>
> Jim
>
>
Message no. 104
From: frontendchaos@**********.com (Jim Montgomery)
Subject: dikote
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:25:21 -0400
> A strikingly fun chemical process developed, I believe by your friends at
> Ares Macrotechnology ("Changing the world one gun at a time"). Basically,
> you get to coat your sword, coat, carp, ballpoint ben, etc. with a thin
> layer of diamond, making it do silly amounts of damage in close combat.

Where can I find stats for this? Dikoted carp are stupid but maybe a
dikoted poodle or bicycle pump could come in handy.

Jim
Message no. 105
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: dikote
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:34:44 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Jim Montgomery
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 8:25 PM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: dikote

> A strikingly fun chemical process developed, I believe by your friends at
> Ares Macrotechnology ("Changing the world one gun at a time"). Basically,
> you get to coat your sword, coat, carp, ballpoint ben, etc. with a thin
> layer of diamond, making it do silly amounts of damage in close combat.

Where can I find stats for this? Dikoted carp are stupid but maybe a
dikoted poodle or bicycle pump could come in handy.

Jim

[***REPLY SEPARATOR***]

PH34R the dikoted cybercarp! (Sorry, Megatokyo overload).

IT seems my last cybercarp was past its prime, out of warranty, and just
plain defective. Let me try this one - *THWAP* - Much better. <scribbles
note to see lawyer abut thor strikes on the manufacturers' koi ponds>


And now to bring this slightly on topic - apparently the USAF is getting
ready to develop and deploy (sub-) orbital kinetic strike vehicles - AKA
Thor. One step closer, ladies and gentlemen.

And for some more real-world military info, all reports from the Afgan and
Iraqi theatres indicate that the current generation of milspec body armor is
quite effective -
Message no. 106
From: Jeffrey.T.Dougherty@********.edu (Jeffrey T Dougherty)
Subject: dikote
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:36:17 -0400 (EDT)
Are you calling my carp stupid, omae? I'll have you know this carp sports
an encephalon. :D

Rules for dikoting (and a lot of other fun things that can do great things
if used creatively) can be found in the Chemisty section of Man&Machine.
The listed rules are for improving armor and melee weapons through
dikoting, but use your imagination. *evil_grin*

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Jim Montgomery wrote:

> > A strikingly fun chemical process developed, I believe by your friends at
> > Ares Macrotechnology ("Changing the world one gun at a time").
Basically,
> > you get to coat your sword, coat, carp, ballpoint ben, etc. with a thin
> > layer of diamond, making it do silly amounts of damage in close combat.
>
> Where can I find stats for this? Dikoted carp are stupid but maybe a
> dikoted poodle or bicycle pump could come in handy.
>
> Jim
>
>
Message no. 107
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: dikote
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:55:35 -0700 (PDT)
> Rules for dikoting (and a lot of other fun things that can do great
> things if used creatively) can be found in the Chemisty section of
> Man&Machine. The listed rules are for improving armor and melee
> weapons through dikoting, but use your imagination. *evil_grin*

Speaking from personal experience, my NPC couriers (found in most
major downtown areas) absolutely swear by dikoted ball bearings in
their roller blade and skateboard wheels. Makes all the difference.
Many a decker, employed as an NPC by myself, has insisted on Dikoting
their cyberdeck carrying case at the earliest opportunity. A layer
of Dikote on all the polished metal parts of your ride looks way, way
more chill than plain old chrome, and is much harder to scratch.
Just ask mister chill himself, Slicky Daddy, small-time Touristville
pimp and chip dealer. :)

You get the idea. I imagine that the industrial world of 2060 has a
vast array of non-combat uses for Dikote.

======Korishinzo
--planning to dikote my favorite chef knife at the first opportunity

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Message no. 108
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: dikote
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:35:08 -0100
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:20:00 -0400
Jim Montgomery <frontendchaos@**********.com> wrote:

> > Must be the way these new carps are Dikoted :).
>
> What is dikote?
>
> Jim

Dikote is the "commercial name" of a special diamond coating (get it :) ?) that
can be applied over engine parts and such, for increased performance.
It also gives a stupendous damage bonus to bladed weapons, which is why
it's popular among shadowrunner melee monkeys.


--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 109
From: kimgoyret@*****.es (Jong-Won Kim)
Subject: Dikote
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:31:52 -0500 (CDT)
FYI, Dikote is produced by DeBeers Omnitech, not Ares.
Stop naming Ares unless you want a lawsuit at the Corp
Court :P

Saludos,
Jong-Won Kim

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Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Dikote, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!