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Message no. 1
From: Claudio - CAESB <claudio@****.ucb.br>
Subject: Dikote Ammo
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:29:42 -0200 (EDT)
Hi SR gang! I have a question that about Dikote Coated ammo. What
are the rules for damage increase? On the ShadowTech book I only saw
rules about Dikote melee weapons but I would like to use the on bullets.
Does anyone in here know how Dikote bullets work?



[]s

Pedro Calmon
Message no. 2
From: jpinnow@***.im.med.umich.edu (Justin Pinnow)
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 14:28:15 -0500
Pedro wrote:

> Hi SR gang! I have a question that about Dikote Coated ammo. What
>are the rules for damage increase? On the ShadowTech book I only saw
>rules about Dikote melee weapons but I would like to use the on bullets.
>Does anyone in here know how Dikote bullets work?

I am sure there is a way of ruling on this easily, but I would just like to
point out that it would seem to be a HUGE waste of money to dikote a bullet!
It's a VERY expensive process, and you can only use the bullet *once*! It would
be much more cost effective (and easier to find) just to use a higher powered
bullet suited to the situation.

Just my opinion.

Justin :)
Message no. 3
From: Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WichitaKS.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 14:08:00 PST
Justin wrote on Dikoting a bullet>>>
>I am sure there is a way of ruling on this easily, but I would just like to

>point out that it would seem to be a HUGE waste of money to dikote a
bullet!
>It's a VERY expensive process, and you can only use the bullet *once*! It
>would
>be much more cost effective (and easier to find) just to use a higher
powered
>bullet suited to the situation.

Not including replacing the barrel a few times because of the damage the
bullet would making to the barrel,

Guy Swartwood
Message no. 4
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu>
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:29:52 -0500
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>>>>> "GS" == Guy Swartwood
<gswartwo@*********.WichitaKS.ATTGIS.COM>
>>>>> writes:

GS> Not including replacing the barrel a few times because of the damage
GS> the bullet would making to the barrel,

You could coat the dikoted rounds with teflon, like they do with FMJ and
solid steel rounds today for just that reason. But that would negate
most of the bonuses you got for dikoting in the first place, now,
wouldn't it.

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PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 5
From: DarkAngelI@******.com
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:35:33 -0800
Actually, in response to the two previous posts on "Dikote Ammo", I beleive
that it says somewhere that the damage code or the power is decreased for a
dikoted ballistic, because, even though it penetrates better, it doesn't
stop. The bullet would continue on its merry way as a clean wound. You'd
probably end up with a single bullet doing at best a light. I can't find
where it said that, or maybe it didn't, but that would be the logical result.
It would act as if you had applied teflon to the bullet, or so I think.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
The Dark
Angel
Message no. 6
From: Claudio - CAESB <claudio@****.ucb.br>
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:55:32 -0200 (EDT)
On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> Pedro wrote:
>
> > Hi SR gang! I have a question that about Dikote Coated ammo. What
> >are the rules for damage increase? On the ShadowTech book I only saw
> >rules about Dikote melee weapons but I would like to use the on bullets.
> >Does anyone in here know how Dikote bullets work?
>
> I am sure there is a way of ruling on this easily, but I would just like to
> point out that it would seem to be a HUGE waste of money to dikote a bullet!
> It's a VERY expensive process, and you can only use the bullet *once*! It would
> be much more cost effective (and easier to find) just to use a higher powered
> bullet suited to the situation.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Justin :)
>
I happen to agree with you. But I asked the question because some of my
players want to drop some big shot corporate guy, so they want to buy
some Dikote ammo for a sniper rifle, to increase the chance of killing
the man on the first shot. That is why I am making this question.



[]s
Pedro Calmon
Message no. 7
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:10:50 -0700 (MST)
On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Claudio - CAESB wrote:

> Hi SR gang! I have a question that about Dikote Coated ammo. What
> are the rules for damage increase? On the ShadowTech book I only saw
> rules about Dikote melee weapons but I would like to use the on bullets.
> Does anyone in here know how Dikote bullets work?

Well, I personally don't think that someone would waste their time
dikoting individual bullets. It's just too much expense to waste every
time you fire your gun.

I suppose, though, that you could do it. I'd theorize that it would add
about 3 to the power of the weapon, due to the armor-penetrating capability.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_

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Message no. 8
From: robert frazine <shade@*****.edu>
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 23:19:49 -0500 (EST)
On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Claudio - CAESB wrote:

{SNIP}
> I happen to agree with you. But I asked the question because some of my
> players want to drop some big shot corporate guy, so they want to buy
> some Dikote ammo for a sniper rifle, to increase the chance of killing
> the man on the first shot. That is why I am making this question.
> []s
They are unsure of a sniper rifle killing the guy with the
first shot?? Have them buy the fifty cal. from Fields of Fire. or
if they have a particular rifle they want to use, buy APDS. Both would
be considerably more cost effective and probably more available than
Dikoted rounds.
Rob(list.member.another.lurker)
Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:50:15 +0100
Claudio - CAESB said on16 Nov 95...

> I happen to agree with you. But I asked the question because some of my
> players want to drop some big shot corporate guy, so they want to buy
> some Dikote ammo for a sniper rifle, to increase the chance of killing
> the man on the first shot. That is why I am making this question.

In my experience, the best way to do something like this is to buy APDS
and shoot him with that to negate any armor he might wear. Dikoting a
bullet wouldn't be worth the trouble IMHO, although if someone else is
paying for it all why not have a go at it, eh? :)

Anyway, how about giving it +1 Power?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
They're just a bunch of kids with growing pains,
they'll probably all be doctors and lawyers someday.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/~mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 19:29:00 GMT
> Hi SR gang! I have a question that about Dikote Coated ammo. What
> are the rules for damage increase? On the ShadowTech book I only saw
> rules about Dikote melee weapons but I would like to use the on bullets.
> Does anyone in here know how Dikote bullets work?

I'd say the effect was negligible. Most bullets deform on impact, so the
Dikote would just flake off. APDS doesn't, but then APDS tends to blow
straight through anyway, with the problem of not doing enough damage
on the way through: Dikoting it would just make it worse.

Basically it's a good way for a GM to extract a huge sum of money from
his/her PCs... let them Dikote bullets, and work out the effectiveness
(or lack thereof) from the results ;) Finally, Dikoted ammo will be rather
unusual and distinctive, too, which may or may not be a problem in your
campaign.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: emmydog@*****.com (Weston Ochse)
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 22:39:11 -0500
Gurth Wrote:
>In my experience, the best way to do something like this is to buy APDS
>and shoot him with that to negate any armor he might wear. Dikoting a
>bullet wouldn't be worth the trouble IMHO, although if someone else is
>paying for it all why not have a go at it, eh? :)



I don't know how other GM's run their games, but generally APDS
rounds are extremely difficult to come by, as well as being highly illegal.
Dikote, on the other hand, although expensive, is legal for purchase and
simply find the right weapons/ammo man, and he'll coat your bullets. Voila!
Legal (within the constraints of normal law i.e. FASA), APDS. Usually I
lower the Power Level by two but apply armor damage as though the target had
been shot by APDS ( I believe it's two rds lower armor Ballistic rating by
one) so even though you're using a lowered power level, in SRII, unless all
successes come from the combat pool, the rounds hit their target. This
means on the next combat round, the target's effective Ballistic rating is
lowered by one, reducing his/her defensive posture. Four rounds hitting
home but doing no physical damage would still mean the target goes from,
say, a jacket ballistic 5 to a 3. Pretty soon, the target will be wearing
nothing but armored rags. This advantage, plus having legal evidence lying
around, is a considerable one. SRII talks about Dikoting normal rounds and
discusses their armor penetrating power.
Message no. 12
From: emmydog@*****.com (Weston Ochse)
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 22:47:07 -0500
>
>I'd say the effect was negligible. Most bullets deform on impact, so the
>Dikote would just flake off.


Kind of a ludicrous statement. Dikote does not "flake off" anymore than
Teflon on an Armor Piercing round. Get real.
Message no. 13
From: seb@***.ripco.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 01:13:39 -0600 (CST)
>
>
> I don't know how other GM's run their games, but generally APDS
> rounds are extremely difficult to come by, as well as being highly illegal.
> Dikote, on the other hand, although expensive, is legal for purchase and
> simply find the right weapons/ammo man, and he'll coat your bullets. Voila!
> Legal (within the constraints of normal law i.e. FASA), APDS. Usually I

Legal Shmegal. APDS is not hard to get ahold of, given time and contacts.
Hell, mongoose loads his Ingram smartgun with it (samurai sidekick indeed!).
He's just run out, and found more just in time for christmass in Chicago.
Does a guy with Wired 3 worry about how legal his AMMO is??? I think not- I
preffer not to be seen using a gun at all, but kill any who do see. Oh, and I
love non leathal weapons- drugs and nets. Those are all quite illegal as
well. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Message no. 14
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 15:49:10 +0100
Weston Ochse said on17 Nov 95...

> I don't know how other GM's run their games, but generally APDS
> rounds are extremely difficult to come by, as well as being highly illegal.

The illegality hasn't bothered my players so far. The availability of 14
has, though :) So the commonly preferred technique is to simply check if
they can get APDS whenever they're shopping for ammo. If not, well no
sweat we still have some from last time...

> Dikote, on the other hand, although expensive, is legal for purchase and
> simply find the right weapons/ammo man, and he'll coat your bullets. Voila!
> Legal (within the constraints of normal law i.e. FASA), APDS. Usually I
> lower the Power Level by two but apply armor damage as though the target had
> been shot by APDS ( I believe it's two rds lower armor Ballistic rating by
> one)

Nope. You use one-half Ballistic against it, no matter how many round you
fire. In first ed, it was -1 Ballistic but this was changed for 2nd ed.

> SRII talks about Dikoting normal rounds and discusses their armor
> penetrating power.

Mind if I ask where? No? "Where?" :) All I could find by quickly reading
through the Dikote bit of Shadowtech was that dikoted weapons can damage
"'hardened' (i.e., vehicular) targets" which they could not normally do
under SR1 rules. In SR2 I believe you can kill a vehicle with your sword.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
They're just a bunch of kids with growing pains,
they'll probably all be doctors and lawyers someday.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/~mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 15
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 10:35:30 GMT
> >I'd say the effect was negligible. Most bullets deform on impact, so the
> >Dikote would just flake off.

> Kind of a ludicrous statement. Dikote does not "flake off" anymore than
> Teflon on an Armor Piercing round. Get real.

Try machining metal with a diamond tool. Use a feed that's just a little
too high, or let the workpiece chatter even a little. Bang, broken diamond
tool. It's very brittle.

DiKote is a film of crystalline diamond. Diamond is extremely hard, but
also extremely brittle. Flex and bend it the way a bullet's exterior
does on impact, and it'll pop clean off. Teflon is a low-modulus
polymer: apples and oranges.

And the PTFE film on some armour-piercing rounds is solely there to
protect the gun barrel, not for any mystical properties it imparts
to penetrating armour.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 16
From: sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 15:59 EST
>Mind if I ask where? No? "Where?" :) All I could find by quickly reading
>through the Dikote bit of Shadowtech was that dikoted weapons can damage
>"'hardened' (i.e., vehicular) targets" which they could not normally do
>under SR1 rules. In SR2 I believe you can kill a vehicle with your sword.
If the vehicle has no armor yes, but if it does you would need a dikoted
weapon or a bunch of successes with a normal sword.
---Sedah Drol

--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
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Message no. 17
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikote Ammo
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 11:51:38 EST
Gurth wrote:
>All I could find by quickly reading throught the Dikote bit of Shadowtech
>was that dikoted weapons can damage "'hardened' (i.e. vehicular) targets"
>which they could not normally do under SR1 rules. In Sr2 I believe you
>can kill a vehicle with your sword.

INSIGNIFICANT!!! How about the PA with killing hands Str D could smash most
good sized cars quite easily. It gets quite hard to resist damage when
14 successes was roled, even if you need only 2's.
Anyone ever see 'Fist of the North Star'?

U-Gene << with that strange humor again :) >>

Further Reading

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