Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:52:40 -0600
Dust wrote:
|
| P.S. Like Fields of Fire says anyone ever try dikoting flechettes?

No one in my game has wanted to pay that much money for a bullet :)

Could the ammo experts on the list answer this one? I was under the
impression that flechette rounds were made out of lead and believe
that they wouldn't survive the process of being dikoted (due to
heat). Cuz I'm thinking that a villain with high resources might try
this stunt.


-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 2
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:35:57 +0000
> | P.S. Like Fields of Fire says anyone ever try dikoting flechettes?
>
> No one in my game has wanted to pay that much money for a bullet :)
>
> Could the ammo experts on the list answer this one? I was under the
> impression that flechette rounds were made out of lead and believe
> that they wouldn't survive the process of being dikoted (due to
> heat). Cuz I'm thinking that a villain with high resources might try
> this stunt.

I'm not an ammo expert, but what I know is that today, flechette
ammunition exists in a different version than that in shadworun. In
Neuromancer, flechette rounds consisted of fiberglass strands. These
strands didn't stay together, but rather fire like a shotgun. (Except
from custom pistols). The strands went through skin and flesh
imbedding itself inside people; either rupturing or destroying vital
orgins, or just hanging around until the victim developed cancer from
it and died a few months later... or got transported alnong arteries
until it lodged into the brain or heart. They cannot go well through
armor, though; while cutting through ballistic cloth like through
paper, any hard or thick armor is a major problem.
Dikoting the flechettes would have to be done individually, or else
the strands would be fused together. Thus it would be better to get
'high quality' flechettes than dikoting them after buying them in a
store. (Having it done after buying the round would cost what,
10000? or another ridiculous sum of money... and not with that much
effect either.).

(Corporate teams unwilling to harm the facilities they are there to
protect often use flechettes.. they can often be simply brushed off
the wall. (Remember to wear a thick glove).

--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."
Message no. 3
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:44:41 -0400
>Rune Fostervoll said:
>
>(Corporate teams unwilling to harm the facilities they are there to
>protect often use flechettes.. they can often be simply brushed off
>the wall. (Remember to wear a thick glove).

Thanks. I'll remember that. <grin>
Message no. 4
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:55:36 +0100
> Could the ammo experts on the list answer this one? I was under the
> impression that flechette rounds were made out of lead and believe
> that they wouldn't survive the process of being dikoted (due to
> heat). Cuz I'm thinking that a villain with high resources might try
> this stunt.
>
>
> -David

I think Flechette rounds aren t the same thing as shot. Afaik they
are made of ceramics that shatter when fired, resulting in sharper
shrapnels and are therefore more dangerous. And I think the ceramics
would survive the dikoting process.

ss
Message no. 5
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:00:01 -0500
> Could the ammo experts on the list answer this one? I was under the
> impression that flechette rounds were made out of lead and believe
> that they wouldn't survive the process of being dikoted (due to
> heat). Cuz I'm thinking that a villain with high resources might try
> this stunt.

I'm only a partial ammo expert, but the flechette rounds that I know
of are steel, or an alloy of zinc, and are very hard and rigid. But
those are today's flechettes.

I'm quite certain that a metal flechette would not have the heat
absorption abilities to survive that Dikote process.

As for 2058 flechettes... who knows. If the GM says the exist
buy them!!! I would.

Love and Peace,

Gossamer
Message no. 6
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:20:24 -0400
David Buehrer wrote:

> I was under the impression that flechette rounds were made out of lead and >
believe that they wouldn't survive the process of being dikoted (due to heat).

The "Flechette" ammo for shot guns are mostly lead shot (i.e.: 00 Buck and
whatnot) although there is steel shot used for hunting waterfoul, but for the
rest of firearmdom they are "tiny slivers". Basically steel needles which could
be Dikoted quite readily.

> Cuz I'm thinking that a villain with high resources might try this stunt.

He'd need serious resourses, the price would be astronomical at the very least,
especially if you charged for the Dikoting of *every* needle. Even if you
charged only the minimum of $1,000 per round, and included the street index,
it'd run you atleast $150,000 to load up one clip for your Predator II...
No thanks...
However, they would be hellacious rounds, but I think I'll stick to APDS.
--
Craig

Reality is nothing but a refuge for those who can't handle role-playing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~craigjwjr/index.html

-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d? s+:+ a-- C++ !U--- !P !L- !E-- W++ N++
o K- w++ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE+++ Y+ PGP- t-
5+++ X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+ G e++ h* r+ y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------
Message no. 7
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:58:32 EST
> I'm only a partial ammo expert, but the flechette rounds that I know
> of are steel, or an alloy of zinc, and are very hard and rigid. But
> those are today's flechettes.

I'm pretty sure FASA uses "slivers of ballistic platic" (whatever
that is) for Flechette (excluding shotguns) in both Shadowrun and
Battletech. Look under the Ammos description in Gear in the main
book. (assuming my memory hasn't failed me..)
-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:46:09 -0600
Craig J Wilhelm Jr wrote:
|
| David Buehrer wrote:
|
[snip: dikoted flechettes]
|
| > Cuz I'm thinking that a villain with high resources might try this stunt.
|
|He'd need serious resourses, the price would be astronomical at the very least,
| especially if you charged for the Dikoting of *every* needle. Even if you
| charged only the minimum of $1,000 per round, and included the street index,
| it'd run you atleast $150,000 to load up one clip for your Predator II...
| No thanks...
| However, they would be hellacious rounds, but I think I'll stick to APDS.

Yup, pretty damned expensive. However, I just thought of something. If
the character has a decent B/R skill and a dikoting machine happens to
"fall off a truck", well...

| Reality is nothing but a refuge for those who can't handle role-playing.

LOL. Good one.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 20:05:53 +0100
Rune Fostervoll said on 17:35/10 Jun 97...

> I'm not an ammo expert, but what I know is that today, flechette
> ammunition exists in a different version than that in shadworun.

Important to remember that.

> In Neuromancer, flechette rounds consisted of fiberglass strands. These
> strands didn't stay together, but rather fire like a shotgun.[snip]

This is yet another kind of "flechette" from fiction that has little to do
with current-day flechette ammo.

RL flechettes: little metal darts, a few mm in diameter and about 10 to 40
times that long. There are a number of shotgun rounds that pack a whole
load of these together (developed during the Vietnam War, IIRC) and fire
them with much the same effect as shot rounds, except that they probably
reach further and/or have better armor penetrating capabilities.
Rifle-caliber flechette rounds usually hold only one dart, and of larger
dimensions than the shotgun types. Mostly these were for experimental or
trial weapons, like AAI and Steyr Advanced Combat Rifle contenders of
almost 10 years ago. In effect these are APFSDS rounds for rifles, and
penetrate armor very well due to their small cross-section and high
velocity. Damage to flesh isn't as much as for a ball (regular) round,
though, because of those same factors.

SR flechettes: "fire a large number of small, sharp metal fragments
designed to rip and tear into a target." Since they _don't_ penetrate
armor well, and cause more damage to unarmored targets than regular
rounds. From this, it seems to me like these "flechettes" are irregularly
shaped, or at least not very aerodynamic, sort of like the fragments that
come from a grenade.
In my game, flechettes use the shotgun spread rules, with a choke equal to
the Power Level of the firing weapon, to reflect the fact that a lot of
small projectiles will spread out into a cone rather than travel together
as a tightly-packed group.

> (Corporate teams unwilling to harm the facilities they are there to
> protect often use flechettes.. they can often be simply brushed off
> the wall. (Remember to wear a thick glove).

Double the Barrier Rating gets used to see if the barrier is damaged, so
they're less likely to cause serious damage to a wall, yes. As for
brushing them off, I'm not so sure -- I think they might bury themselves
into a wall; still no problem, just smear something in the holes and
re-paint the place.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Drowning in the main-stream.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:26:35 EDT
On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:52:40 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>Dust wrote:
>|
>| P.S. Like Fields of Fire says anyone ever try dikoting flechettes?
>
>No one in my game has wanted to pay that much money for a bullet :)

I remember working out the cost a while ago, and batches of 10 cost
something on the order of several hundred to Y1,000 (w/o the street
index).

>Could the ammo experts on the list answer this one? I was under the
>impression that flechette rounds were made out of lead and believe
>that they wouldn't survive the process of being dikoted (due to
>heat). Cuz I'm thinking that a villain with high resources might try
>this stunt.

Well, in a LOT of sci-fi and cyberpunk, fletchets are ceramic, so why
not?
(make them ceramic and then di-kote 'em).

~Tim (and why not, since you're blowing all this money ANYWAY, coat each
round's fletchets with some nifty chemical too.)
Message no. 11
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dikoted Flechette
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:29:02 +1000
> |He'd need serious resourses, the price would be astronomical at the very least,
> | especially if you charged for the Dikoting of *every* needle. Even if you
> | charged only the minimum of $1,000 per round, and included the street index,
> | it'd run you atleast $150,000 to load up one clip for your Predator II...
> | No thanks...
> | However, they would be hellacious rounds, but I think I'll stick to APDS.
>
> Yup, pretty damned expensive. However, I just thought of something. If
> the character has a decent B/R skill and a dikoting machine happens to
> "fall off a truck", well...
>

They aren't that hard to make, even today.

All you need is a pressure vessel and a prowerful microwave emitter. Feed
methane into the vessel at high enough pressure, and 'cook' the shit out
of it and you end up depositing diamond coatings on anything that can
survive the temperatures.

From memory, the total set-up took about 10,000 for a few
scientists to put together, and operated at about 500 degrees.

Marty

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Dikoted Flechette, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!