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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 04:25:01 2001
Here's an old discussion from AOL a few years back that I never got the
rulings on.
Two different people wanted to know a couple of things on Dikote.

1. Would Dikoting Flechette rounds nagate the armor effect?
(I'm talking about dikoting the individual flechettes, not the round casing.
Since CC gives rules for making your own ammo I believe this is possible
now.)

2. Would Dikoting a cyber limb make it count as Hardened? (Don't have M&M
yet so I can't look it up.)
The discussion turned to things like, "you could, but you'd just have a nice
shiny club. The process would cause the joints of the arm to lock up." But
then I bought Cyberpirates at the time and some shadowtalk said how they had
their arms Dikoted. Maybe if you got the parts dikoted before hand? (Pun
unintended)

Anyway, I would just like a ruling on this, since my AOL privileges were
revoked (my free time ran out) and I never got to hear an answer.
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 13:15:01 2001
Valeu John EMFA writes:

> 1. Would Dikoting Flechette rounds nagate the armor effect?
> (I'm talking about dikoting the individual flechettes, not the round casing.
> Since CC gives rules for making your own ammo I believe this is possible
> now.)

According to M&M:

"When Dikote is used to coat a melee, throwing or projectile weapon, add 1
to the Power of any attack..."

If you read the rule literally, then coating ranged weapons other than
throwing or projectile weapons does nothing (though coating a grenade to do
11S rather than 10S would be possible under this interpretation ;-)).

I would say that Dikote could be applied to any _rigid_ surface. That's
pretty much the gist of the stuff.

Coating a surface that is going to deform (or that is designed to deform)
like a normal bullet would have no effect.

OTOH, flechette needles and APDS penetrators are not designed to deform.

So coating them would probably have the same game effect as coating arrows.
ie, +1 Power.

> 2. Would Dikoting a cyber limb make it count as Hardened? (Don't have M&M
> yet so I can't look it up.)
> The discussion turned to things like, "you could, but you'd just have a nice
> shiny club. The process would cause the joints of the arm to lock up." But
> then I bought Cyberpirates at the time and some shadowtalk said how they had
> their arms Dikoted. Maybe if you got the parts dikoted before hand? (Pun
> unintended)

According to M&M:

"Dikoting a surface adds 2 to the Barrier Rating and 1 to any ballistic and
impact armour. If used to coat a vehicle or drone, Dikote adds 1 to the
vehicle's Body and Armour Ratings..."

When it comes to coating a cyberarm, I guess that you could go two ways:

1. The cyberarm now has +2 Barrier Rating, and has +1/+1 armour. The +1
Barrier Rating is only going to come into play if the arm is under extreme
stress.

2. The cyberarm gets +1 Integrity (the M&M version of the old Cybertech Body
increase, it essentially makes the limb less likely to suffer from
troublesome stress effects), and +1/+1 armour.

The +1/+1 armour would probably be best treated in the same manner as
cyberlimb armour plating. In short, the ratings over the entire body are
averaged, and added to the ratings of any worn armour.

Concerning the problem of fusing the arm together, I think that if it is
posible to coat _entire vehicles_ in the stuff, and they don't fuse up, then
cyberarms would not have a problem, either. It would be sensible to
disassemble the bits going under the plasma for dikoting.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jason Lantrip)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 13:30:01 2001
On Thursday, August 30, 2001 11:11 AM, Damion Milliken [SMTP:dam01@***.edu.au]
wrote:
> If you read the rule literally, then coating ranged weapons other than
> throwing or projectile weapons does nothing (though coating a grenade to do
> 11S rather than 10S would be possible under this interpretation ;-)).

I guess that would help for those trolls who forget to prime the grenade before
throwing it, too...

Would the flechette needles be able to take the heat? I don't know what
materials they're supposed to be made out of, but I'd imagine it's something on
the lowest end of the cost scale, since they're designed to be used on
unarmored targets...

> It would be sensible to disassemble the bits going under the plasma for
dikoting.

Especially if you've already got the cyberarm attached.... ;)

--J
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 14:50:01 2001
Jason Lantrip writes:

> Would the flechette needles be able to take the heat? I don't know what
> materials they're supposed to be made out of, but I'd imagine it's
> something on the lowest end of the cost scale, since they're designed to be
> used on unarmored targets...

SR3 describes the flechettes as "sharp metal slivers". M&M says that
"most"
metals can be dikoted. Likely flechette candidate materials, remembering
that they are to be both "sharp" (ie, hard) and probably cheap, are low
grade steel and aluminium. Most other metals would be more expensive, as
they are rarer, and produced in lesser quantities (cans are made from steel
or aluminium for a reason ;-)). Both steel and aluminium have reasonably
high melting points (1538 and 660 degress Celcius, respectively), and thus
should be able to withstand the dikoting process.

It is worth noting that steel is harder and denser, making it a superior
candidate for flechette ammo. However, as machining costs for making fine
slivers for flechettes is likely to be the greatest expense in manufacturing
the ammo, the softer, more easily machined aluminium may be more favourable
in a cost analysis. However, the more hazardous aluminium metal powder that
would be produced as a by product might make it unfavourable compared to
steel.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Demosthenes Three)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 16:20:01 2001
Instead of dikoting the flechettes themselves, why not just use shards of
Dikote? I mean the stuff is a solid substance, why not just create slivers
of that and use it for ammo? Since dikote is applied as a liquid IIRC at
high heat, it sounds like it could easily be sprayed into a flechette mold,
and then extraced for use as ammo.

But then again, I like meat-chunk launchers.

Demosthenes Three
demosthenes_3@*****.com


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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jason Lantrip)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 16:30:01 2001
On Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:21 PM, Demosthenes Three
[SMTP:demosthenes_3@*****.com] wrote:
> Instead of dikoting the flechettes themselves, why not just use shards of
> Dikote? I mean the stuff is a solid substance, why not just create slivers
> of that and use it for ammo? Since dikote is applied as a liquid IIRC at
> high heat, it sounds like it could easily be sprayed into a flechette mold,
> and then extraced for use as ammo.

It's some permutation of diamond isn't it? Either way it's clear...can you
imagine trying to pick flechettes out of a wound if the person survived? It's
be worse than glass...

--J
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 16:35:01 2001
At 04:21 PM 8/30/2001 -0400, Demosthenes Three wrote:
>Instead of dikoting the flechettes themselves, why not just use shards of
>Dikote? I mean the stuff is a solid substance, why not just create slivers
>of that and use it for ammo? Since dikote is applied as a liquid IIRC at
>high heat, it sounds like it could easily be sprayed into a flechette mold,
>and then extraced for use as ammo.
>
>But then again, I like meat-chunk launchers.

Because Dikoting is a process that is applied to things. It's like dipping
a cherry in chocolate. If you don't have anything to dip in the
chocolate... :)

It just occurred to me that dikoting the flechettes would cause a problem.

It would seem to me that the flechettes in the flechette round would be
milled to exact dimensions. I'm not sure how much Dikoting them would add
to their size, but I would think it would be enough that you wouldn't be
able to reassemble them to fit back in to the round they came out of.

Just a thought.


To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 16:40:01 2001
At 14:32 30.08.2001 -0600, Graht wrote:

<snip>

>It would seem to me that the flechettes in the flechette round would be
>milled to exact dimensions. I'm not sure how much Dikoting them would add
>to their size, but I would think it would be enough that you wouldn't be
>able to reassemble them to fit back in to the round they came out of.
>
>Just a thought.

I gues dikoting something is like anodizing or any other treatment of
metal. Won't do anything...

Arclight
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 16:45:01 2001
At 02:32 PM 8/30/2001 -0600, Graht wrote:
>At 04:21 PM 8/30/2001 -0400, Demosthenes Three wrote:
>>Instead of dikoting the flechettes themselves, why not just use shards of
>>Dikote? I mean the stuff is a solid substance, why not just create slivers
>>of that and use it for ammo? Since dikote is applied as a liquid IIRC at
>>high heat, it sounds like it could easily be sprayed into a flechette mold,
>>and then extraced for use as ammo.
>>
>>But then again, I like meat-chunk launchers.
>
>Because Dikoting is a process that is applied to things. It's like
>dipping a cherry in chocolate. If you don't have anything to dip in the
>chocolate... :)

Doh! I missed the bit about spraying it on the inside of the mold.

Still, you have the problem that the Dikote bonds to whatever it is sprayed
on. What would you make the mold out of?

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 16:50:00 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Graht <davidb@****.imcprint.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: Dikoted things


> At 04:21 PM 8/30/2001 -0400, Demosthenes Three wrote:
> >Instead of dikoting the flechettes themselves, why not just use shards of
> >Dikote? I mean the stuff is a solid substance, why not just create
slivers
> >of that and use it for ammo? Since dikote is applied as a liquid IIRC at
> >high heat, it sounds like it could easily be sprayed into a flechette
mold,
> >and then extraced for use as ammo.
> >
> >But then again, I like meat-chunk launchers.
>
> Because Dikoting is a process that is applied to things. It's like
dipping
> a cherry in chocolate. If you don't have anything to dip in the
> chocolate... :)
>
> It just occurred to me that dikoting the flechettes would cause a problem.
>
> It would seem to me that the flechettes in the flechette round would be
> milled to exact dimensions. I'm not sure how much Dikoting them would add
> to their size, but I would think it would be enough that you wouldn't be
> able to reassemble them to fit back in to the round they came out of.
>
> Just a thought.
>
>

No Dikote is not a liquid, it is a process by which objects are placed
inside a Carbon Plasma with some funky high tech process (likely a
combination of Microwaves and magnetic fields) that cause the free Carbon
ions to bond with each other onto the surface of the object. What you end up
with is a very thin layer of diamond covering coating the surface. However
this coating is only a few to a few hundred atoms thick so no it would not
appreciably change the diameter of the objects coated this way.

As far as Dikote affecting Flechettes, I do not think that it would have a
measurable effect, the individual flechettes are so light that even with a
diamond coating they would probably deform before they could penetrate any
significant armor


Steve
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Demosthenes Three)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Thu Aug 30 23:30:01 2001
> Doh! I missed the bit about spraying it on the inside of the mold.
>
> Still, you have the problem that the Dikote bonds to whatever it is
sprayed
> on. What would you make the mold out of?

That would be the problem wouldn't it? :-)
Maybe a previously dikoted steel mold?
Will dikote bind to previously dikoted items? No idea.
Just making this up as I go.
Still, I have to think there's a way to do it.
While dikote may start as some sort of carbon bonding process, the end
result is a solid coating on an item. That means some solid form of "dikote"
As far as I'm concerned that means there's a way to shape it.
Logically there must be a substance that dikote won't permanantly bond to
that could be used as a mold. After all, what do they put the item on while
it's being dikoted?
Antigravity is still a little beyond SR tech IMO. That means the thing has
got to be sitting on/in something while being coated, and unless it's meant
to bind to that container, there must be some way to get it to release.
Heck the very fact that it's NOT permanant, and does wear off the treated
item eventually means that it can be affected by corrosive forces, so again,
there's got to be a way to cut/abrade/shape it.

YMMV - decide how it works in your own game.

Demosthenes Three
demosthenes_3@*****.com


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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Fri Aug 31 01:30:01 2001
>> Doh! I missed the bit about spraying it on the inside of the mold.
>>
>> Still, you have the problem that the Dikote bonds to whatever it is
>sprayed
>> on. What would you make the mold out of?

>That would be the problem wouldn't it? :-)
>Maybe a previously dikoted steel mold?
>Will dikote bind to previously dikoted items? No idea.
>Just making this up as I go.
>Still, I have to think there's a way to do it.
>While dikote may start as some sort of carbon bonding process, the end
>result is a solid coating on an item. That means some solid form of
"dikote"
>As far as I'm concerned that means there's a way to shape it.
>Logically there must be a substance that dikote won't permanantly bond to
>that could be used as a mold. After all, what do they put the item on while
>it's being dikoted?

<snip bit about antigrav>

The way they mentioned the process in Shadowtech, I pictured a vacuum sealed
ballistic plastic container (Something like bullet proof glass) with tubes
for the gas and plasma. The container's clear so it can be bombarded with
the microwaves (is that correct? Don't have ST with me).
(another small reason I like the original book for Bioware. They actually
described the Dikote process. That and Muscle Augmentation gave a +1 str
AND a +1 quick for every level.)

There would be either a slot on the sides for swords, and other long flat
objects, or there would either be small rods or wire streched from one end
to the other to balance the object in question on. Of course this also
means that the Dikote process would screw up your case so you'd have to make
a new one (we figured that was part of the cost and why you have to pay for
the original by the cubic area).

All this speculation is nice but it still doesn't answer my questions....
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Fri Aug 31 02:30:01 2001
Valeu John EMFA writes:

> The way they mentioned the process in Shadowtech, I pictured a vacuum sealed
> ballistic plastic container (Something like bullet proof glass) with tubes
> for the gas and plasma. The container's clear so it can be bombarded with
> the microwaves (is that correct? Don't have ST with me).

I don't recall the description in ST being quite that detailed, actually.
But modern day plasma deposition chambers are usually gas shroud deposition
or filtered arc deposition. In a gas shroud deposition, the chamber is more
or less like you desribe, a big sphere with the thing to be coated in the
middle (usually resting on a small, electrically conductive surface, which
means that a bit of it will not be coated). The chamber is evacuated of air,
and the reaction gases are let in (usually at low pressure). The outer
chamber is often one pole of an electrode, and the thing to be coated is the
other. Ramp up the voltage, and you generate your plasma, and depending on
the poles, certain ions will be deposited on your target material. Filtered
arc systems are essentially simple particle accelerators, with a target made
from your desired implantation material that is ablated by a high voltage
arc, accelerated down a tube by a magnetic field, turned around a corner to
filter out particles but not ions, and slammed into an appropiately charged
"item to be coated". I've seen people coat swiss army knives with tungsten
carbide and similar hard, wear resistant compounds in these kind of devices
(usually after hours ;-)).

Current day microwave bonding systems (often used for bonding metals to
ceramics) have a similar setup with a reaction chamber, a clear directional
inlet for the high powered microwaves, and the target materials in the
center. Merging the two systems probably wouldn't be all that difficult.

It's easy enough to generate a plasma in even a low powered household
microwave (try placing a dead lightbuld in your microwave one day). I recall
hearing about a system people were working on several years ago (like about
10 or more) that involved methane gas and some other gases, and a microwave
system. Energising the system to a plasma was supposed to release the carbon
from the methane, react the hydrogen with the other gases, and deposit the
carbon onto whatever you put into the microwave. I recall the system tended
to deposit amorphous carbon or graphite at best, but surely with a bit of
work it could be worked out to deposit diamond instead.

> (another small reason I like the original book for Bioware. They actually
> described the Dikote process. That and Muscle Augmentation gave a +1 str
> AND a +1 quick for every level.)

Yeah, the split to muscle toner and muscle aug is a but of a muchkin dream
:-).

> There would be either a slot on the sides for swords, and other long flat
> objects, or there would either be small rods or wire streched from one end
> to the other to balance the object in question on. Of course this also
> means that the Dikote process would screw up your case so you'd have to make
> a new one (we figured that was part of the cost and why you have to pay for
> the original by the cubic area).

I see no particular reason why using the process would destroy the case. The
case is probably a finely tuned piece of engineering, and very expensive, so
it wouldn't be replaced.

> All this speculation is nice but it still doesn't answer my questions....

Did you see my earlier message?

Also, since dikote is a surface modification process, it deposits extremely
thin layers (microns at most). Using it to actually make a macroscopic item
would not be feasable, so making pure dikote flechettes wouldn't work.
You'd need a different process for that.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Dikoted things
Date: Fri Aug 31 11:25:01 2001
At 11:34 PM 8/30/2001 -0400, Demosthenes Three wrote:
> > Doh! I missed the bit about spraying it on the inside of the mold.
> >
> > Still, you have the problem that the Dikote bonds to whatever it is
>sprayed
> > on. What would you make the mold out of?
>
>That would be the problem wouldn't it? :-)
>Maybe a previously dikoted steel mold?
>Will dikote bind to previously dikoted items? No idea.
>Just making this up as I go.
>Still, I have to think there's a way to do it.
>While dikote may start as some sort of carbon bonding process, the end
>result is a solid coating on an item. That means some solid form of "dikote"
>As far as I'm concerned that means there's a way to shape it.
>Logically there must be a substance that dikote won't permanantly bond to
>that could be used as a mold.

Except that Dikote isn't Dikote until it bonds to something. Prior to that
it's a plasma gas.

>After all, what do they put the item on while
>it's being dikoted?
>Antigravity is still a little beyond SR tech IMO. That means the thing has
>got to be sitting on/in something while being coated

Didn't you know? They can levitate anything with magnetism now :)

http://www.sci.kun.nl/hfml/froglev.html

They can only levitate small things now, but they should be able to float
larger things in Shadowrun.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Dikoted things, you may also be interested in:

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