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Message no. 1
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 05:32:04 +1000
Alfredo B Alves writes:

> Whooops! I thought they got both ... I'm glad no one in my game has edged
> melee weapons ... hmmmm ... looking at the decript something seems a bit
> off: a weapon treated with Dikote DOESN'T gets it's power halved against
> vehicles??? IMO that's bit much ... anybody agree /disagree? (btw, this
> is evidenced at the bottom of the section ... last paragraph, actually)

Hmm, you're right. So that is where I got the idea that Dikoted weapons
were Armour-Piercing (as per anti-vehicle weapons). Yes, I do believe that
this is the case.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 2
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:39:21 -0400
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At 05:32 AM 6/22/98 +1000, Damion wrote:
>Alfredo B Alves writes:
>
>> Whooops! I thought they got both ... I'm glad no one in my game has
edged
>> melee weapons ... hmmmm ... looking at the decript something seems
a bit
>> off: a weapon treated with Dikote DOESN'T gets it's power halved
against
>> vehicles??? IMO that's bit much ... anybody agree /disagree? (btw,
this
>> is evidenced at the bottom of the section ... last paragraph,
actually)
>
>Hmm, you're right. So that is where I got the idea that Dikoted
weapons
>were Armour-Piercing (as per anti-vehicle weapons). Yes, I do
believe that
>this is the case.

Alright, I have to ask. What's this about weapon power being halved
vs. a vehicle?
I looked in the BBB, and R2, and couldn't find any references to it.
If it's a fairly recent rule, I believe no one would fault a GM for
asuming a new rule supercedes an old one, even if it does invalidate
previous examples.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:54:56 +1000
Paul Gettle writes:

> Alright, I have to ask. What's this about weapon power being halved vs. a
> vehicle?
>
> I looked in the BBB, and R2, and couldn't find any references to it. If
> it's a fairly recent rule, I believe no one would fault a GM for asuming a
> new rule supercedes an old one, even if it does invalidate previous examples.

It's in the SRII Combat chapter, under the Vehicle Combat section I
believe. It's about page 108 or so (from memory).

I'm not so sure if it's the same or not in R2, as I only skimmed the book
when reading it.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 4
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:33:16 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:54 PM 6/22/98 +1000, Damion wrote:
>Paul Gettle writes:
>> Alright, I have to ask. What's this about weapon power being halved
vs. a
>> vehicle?
>It's in the SRII Combat chapter, under the Vehicle Combat section I
>believe. It's about page 108 or so (from memory).

Ok. I've reread the vehicle combat section again. There is still
nothing about Weapon Power being halved.

In SR2, for vehicles w/o armor, the power of the attack is reduced by
the vehicle's body stat. I went back to the original rigger book, and
sure enough, under those rules, the weapon power was halved. However,
SRII superceeds the rules printed in the Rigger Black Book.

The example in Shadowtech doesn't seem to indicate any reduction in
power, but if you use the SR2 system, instead of the R1 system, the
power reduction would vary depending on the Body of the car being
sliced up by the dikoted sword. Since SR2 and Shadowtech were
developed around the same time, I imagine that the example was
developed with the SR2 system in mind. In fact, most all of Shadowtech
was designed with SR2 in mind, execpt for the damage code for cyanide,
which has a staging of 3, not 2.

(tangent question: Since the sourcebook updates chapter in the back of
SR2 clearly states that the second edition doesn't change anything in
Shadowtech, does that mean that cyanide still has a staging of 3, even
under second edition?)

Why doesn't the dikote sword vs car example in Shadowtech mention that
the power is reduced by the car's Body? Since Shadowtech was meant to
be a bridge sourcebook, usable for both 1st and 2nd editions, maybe
the part about the power being reduced by the body of the vehicle was
simply left off to avoid confusion. Or since under the rules at that
time, cars could have different Body stats, and they didn't mention a
specific car, they didn't have a number to use.

Or perhaps the authors simply forgot it.

To get absolutely nit-picky, the halving rule from the Rigger Black
Book doesn't even apply to melee weapons.

Under 1st edition Vehicle Combat rules, the only weapons that could
damage a vehicle were heavy weapons, and they had a seperate "Vehicle
Damage Code".

When the Rigger Black Book came out, FASA admited that the vehicle
damage code was just half the power, and one lower damage category,
and yes, you can use the same formula for firearms, grenades and
explosives.

Then Shadowtech comes out, with a way to have melee weapons damage
vehicles, if they're dikoted.

SR2's vehicle combat system allowed for any weapon to damage a
vehicle: the damage code is reduced one step, and the power is reduced
by the vehicle's body.

Then Rigger 2 comes out. Now, Vehicle Body is standardized by the size
of the vehicle, and has no effect on the weapon's power. Instead,
vehicle armor reduces the power of the attack. Like all the rules tha
came before, the damage category is dropped a step.

Since SR3 is supposed to use Rigger 2's rules, things shouldn't change
too much come August.

What does this mean for dikoted melee weapons vs vehicles? No matter
if you're using a mix of SR2 and Rigger Black Book, or the Rigger2/SR3
rules, I'd say the're no more armor piercing than any other melee
weapon.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go watch Jackie Chan's Rumble in
the Bronx again, so I can see him take out a Hovercraft with a called
shot with a katana. (And the katana isn't even dikoted.)

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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 5
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 04:08:58 -0500
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:33:16 -0400 Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>At 12:54 PM 6/22/98 +1000, Damion wrote:
>>Paul Gettle writes:
>> > Alright, I have to ask. What's this about weapon power being
halvedvs. a
>> > vehicle?
>>It's in the SRII Combat chapter, under the Vehicle Combat section I
>>believe. It's about page 108 or so (from memory).

>Ok. I've reread the vehicle combat section again. There is still
>nothing about Weapon Power being halved.
>
>In SR2, for vehicles w/o armor, the power of the attack is reduced by
>the vehicle's body stat. I went back to the original rigger book, and
>sure enough, under those rules, the weapon power was halved. However,
>SRII superceeds the rules printed in the Rigger Black Book.
>
>The example in Shadowtech doesn't seem to indicate any reduction in
>power, but if you use the SR2 system, instead of the R1 system, the
>power reduction would vary depending on the Body of the car being
>sliced up by the dikoted sword. Since SR2 and Shadowtech were
>developed around the same time, I imagine that the example was
>developed with the SR2 system in mind. In fact, most all of Shadowtech
>was designed with SR2 in mind, execpt for the damage code for cyanide,
>which has a staging of 3, not 2.

Oooops ... damnit ... I'm saying that too frequently of late. Must not
be getting enough sleep... I'd say that I was remembering a 1rst Ed rule
but I never played 1rst Ed (first SR Game was in `94) though I /do/ have
SR1 & RBB :/ More likely, it was a house rule in the game I played but
then again I don't remember anyone ever attacking a vehicle in that game
...

>(tangent question: Since the sourcebook updates chapter in the back of
>SR2 clearly states that the second edition doesn't change anything in
>Shadowtech, does that mean that cyanide still has a staging of 3, even
>under second edition?)

Doubtful. :) Probably just a boo-boo :) *reads Shadowtech* Hey ... My
copy says Cyanide has a dmage code of 4D2 ... *checks copyright page* Ah
... says "Corrected 6th printing"

>Why doesn't the dikote sword vs car example in Shadowtech mention that
>the power is reduced by the car's Body? Since Shadowtech was meant to
>be a bridge sourcebook, usable for both 1st and 2nd editions, maybe
>the part about the power being reduced by the body of the vehicle was
>simply left off to avoid confusion. Or since under the rules at that
>time, cars could have different Body stats, and they didn't mention a
>specific car, they didn't have a number to use.
>
>Or perhaps the authors simply forgot it.

Or perhaps since usuable for both the author only described the rules
that both systems used ...

>To get absolutely nit-picky, the halving rule from the Rigger Black
>Book doesn't even apply to melee weapons.
>
>Under 1st edition Vehicle Combat rules, the only weapons that could
>damage a vehicle were heavy weapons, and they had a seperate "Vehicle
>Damage Code".
>
>When the Rigger Black Book came out, FASA admited that the vehicle
>damage code was just half the power, and one lower damage category,
>and yes, you can use the same formula for firearms, grenades and
>explosives.
>
>Then Shadowtech comes out, with a way to have melee weapons damage
>vehicles, if they're dikoted.

I cannot see a dikoted pocket knife carving up the side of a Mac truck
...

>SR2's vehicle combat system allowed for any weapon to damage a
>vehicle: the damage code is reduced one step, and the power is reduced
>by the vehicle's body.
>
>Then Rigger 2 comes out. Now, Vehicle Body is standardized by the size
>of the vehicle, and has no effect on the weapon's power. Instead,
>vehicle armor reduces the power of the attack. Like all the rules tha
>came before, the damage category is dropped a step.
>
>Since SR3 is supposed to use Rigger 2's rules, things shouldn't change
>too much come August.
>
>What does this mean for dikoted melee weapons vs vehicles? No matter
>if you're using a mix of SR2 and Rigger Black Book, or the Rigger2/SR3
>rules, I'd say the're no more armor piercing than any other melee
>weapon.

Makes sense to me ... good detective work, btw :)

>Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go watch Jackie Chan's Rumble in
>the Bronx again, so I can see him take out a Hovercraft with a called
>shot with a katana. (And the katana isn't even dikoted.)
>
<SNIP PGP>
> -- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
<SNIP More PGP>

I still have to see that ... I saw 'Mr Nice Guy' not too long ago ...
that was Niiiice ;) And also rented SuperCop a little before that ...
Hmmmm... Best Buy has a Jackie Chan Collector's set... I might look into
it ...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:59:06 +0100
Paul Gettle said on 22:39/21 Jun 98,...

> Alright, I have to ask. What's this about weapon power being halved
> vs. a vehicle?
> I looked in the BBB, and R2, and couldn't find any references to it.
> If it's a fairly recent rule, I believe no one would fault a GM for
> asuming a new rule supercedes an old one, even if it does invalidate
> previous examples.

It's a rule from SR1, that was dropped in SR2. The complete rule
was that weapons used against vehicles halved their Power Level
and Staging, and dropped the Damage Level by one. So, a 10S4
weapon would do only 5M2 against a vehicle.

In SR2 this was replaced by the much simpler rule that only the
Damage Level was reduced by one step, making a 10S weapon do
10M against a vehicle.

Nothing complex, just a little matter of confusing the first-edition
rules in Shadowtech with those of SR2, I guess.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nobody has a nicely-balanced range of obsessions
which they dabble in when they feel like it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Randy Nickel <RANNIC@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:36:23 -0700
<<In SR2 this was replaced by the much simpler rule that only
the Damage Level was reduced by one step, making a 10S weapon do 10M
against a vehicle.>>

Actually I did not believe that ruling was against vehicle, but
against anything with hardened armor.

And I think that it still maintains that you halve the power,
round down, and drop the damage code one level. I do not have my books
here at work but I will check when I get home.

I think the ruling went like this....

A vehicle has 4 body and 4 hardened armor. Someone is shooting a
Ultra-Power Browning which does 9M. The power would be halved round down
and the and the damage code dropped to L. Thus a 4L.

Also, if I am remembering this correctly, if the power of the
weapon is not higher then the hardened armor then the weapon does no
damage.

These are the rules for vehicles that I use when I am playing.
That way I don't have someone with a hold-out pistol taking out vehicles
that are fairly well armored.

- Eclipse
Message no. 8
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:57:33 -0400
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At 04:08 AM 6/22/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>Paul Gettle wrote:
>>(tangent question: Since the sourcebook updates chapter in the back
of
>>SR2 clearly states that the second edition doesn't change anything
in
>>Shadowtech, does that mean that cyanide still has a staging of 3,
even
>>under second edition?)
>
>Doubtful. :) Probably just a boo-boo :) *reads Shadowtech* Hey ... My
>copy says Cyanide has a dmage code of 4D2 ... *checks copyright page*
Ah
>... says "Corrected 6th printing"

It's an offical boo-boo then. I just wonder why there's never been
Erratta published for Shadowtech. Oh well, if I'm feeling like an evil
GM, I'll still make them resist the 4D3 damage code, just to mess with
their heads.

>Or perhaps since usuable for both the author only described the rules
>that both systems used ...

The only universal constant across the five differening rules is the
dropping of the letter code one step. Fortunately, that's precisely
the situation described in the Dikoted Weapon vs Vehicle example.

>>Then Shadowtech comes out, with a way to have melee weapons damage
>>vehicles, if they're dikoted.
>
>I cannot see a dikoted pocket knife carving up the side of a Mac
truck

I was working out some "what if" scenarios last night after
researching that post, and came up with a simple solution for keeping
melee weapons vs vehicles from being silly, and unrealistic. If
players are trying to attack a vehicle in the middle of combat, but
it's obvious that the character wouldn't be able to really harm the
vehicle, the GM can just modify the melee T# to where the character
would get few, if any successes.

To use your example, a dikoted pocket knife would have a base damage
of Light vs vehicles, at best. If the attacker were to try to take a
stab at the side of a Mac truck as it went by, as a GM, I'd feel free
to throw in all sorts of modifiers, like giving Superior Position and
Longer Reach to the truck, not to mention a moving target modifier.
Result: the truck is probably going to get enough successes to stage
any damage down to nothing.

However, if the attacker found himself clinging to the front bumper of
said Mac truck, and stabbed his dikoted pocket knife through the
grillework into the radiator, I'd be more inclined to give the
attacker the benifit of the doubt. I wouldn't give to many modifiers
in favor of the truck, and I probably would even give the attacker a
called shot bonus. Sure a Mac truck is big and would normally laugh
off any damage from a pocket knife, but if the radiator gets punctured
and the cooling system starts to fail, then the rest of the engine
will overheat, maybe parts will start seizing up, and that's the sort
of damage that makes sense for moderate to severe vehicle damage.

>>What does this mean for dikoted melee weapons vs vehicles? No matter
>>if you're using a mix of SR2 and Rigger Black Book, or the
Rigger2/SR3
>>rules, I'd say the're no more armor piercing than any other melee
>>weapon.
>
>Makes sense to me ... good detective work, btw :)

Thank you. I would have put a mention in there too about naval class
vehicles and damage, but I don't have Cyberpirates yet.

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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 9
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:55:36 +1000
Paul Gettle writes:

> Ok. I've reread the vehicle combat section again. There is still nothing
> about Weapon Power being halved.
>
> In SR2, for vehicles w/o armor, the power of the attack is reduced by the
> vehicle's body stat. I went back to the original rigger book, and sure
> enough, under those rules, the weapon power was halved. However, SRII
> superceeds the rules printed in the Rigger Black Book.

<sheepish grin> Oops. There I go again, remembering 1st Edition rules. You
are, of course, entirely correct.

Bravo, BTW, on the thorough research, which which I entirely agree, and must
concur with your conclusion as to the lack of armour ability piercing of
dikoted weapons.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:42:04 +0100
Randy Nickel said on 8:36/22 Jun 98,...

> Actually I did not believe that ruling was against vehicle, but
> against anything with hardened armor.

The Hardened Armor power description says it works like vehicle
armor, not the other way around.

> And I think that it still maintains that you halve the power,
> round down, and drop the damage code one level. I do not have my books
> here at work but I will check when I get home.

Check page 108: against vehicles without armor, the Damage
Level is reduced by one; no mention is made of the Power Level
being halved. It doesn't say so explicitly that the same thing
happens against vehicles with armor, but the text implies that it
does in later paragraphs.

> I think the ruling went like this....
>
> A vehicle has 4 body and 4 hardened armor. Someone is shooting a
> Ultra-Power Browning which does 9M. The power would be halved round down
> and the and the damage code dropped to L. Thus a 4L.

I maintain you're confusing SR1 and SRII rules.

> Also, if I am remembering this correctly, if the power of the
> weapon is not higher then the hardened armor then the weapon does no
> damage.

Yes. If the PL is less than or equal to the vehicle armor rating, it
cannot damage the vehicle.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nobody has a nicely-balanced range of obsessions
which they dabble in when they feel like it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Randy Nickel <RANNIC@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikote & Vehicles
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:54:54 -0700
<<I maintain you're confusing SR1 and SRII rules.>>

That's likely, I will take a look at it when I get home.

Either way though the rules that I assumed I was running
correctly have worked for our group and it makes fighting vehicles a
very scary proposition.

- Eclipse

Further Reading

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Thwap!