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Message no. 1
From: Metal Phoenix <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:45:10 -0400
Can flechette rounds be dikoted?

This was a thought that was brought up in Fields.... Is it possible?
What would the cost be? How about damage?

I think it would be incredibly expensive to dikote flechettes. The
flechettes would have to be individually coated (also note that a
flechette round's surface area is about ten times that of a normal round),
increasing costs fifteenfold.

Damage would increase according to the rules in Shadowtech, which would
make anything short of an Ares slivergun obsolete.

Metal Phoenix
Message no. 2
From: Mike Sapp <cynner29@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:27:36 -0400
At 11:45 AM 8/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Can flechette rounds be dikoted?
The only way we allowed the flechette to be dikoted, was having the
flechettes specially made smaller in diameter to allow for the thickness of
the dikote, then each has to be loaded into a round because live ammo and
plasma just don't mix. This process not only made these rounds expensive
beyond most people's resources but also made a wonderful paper trail for
the police to pick up on. There was also a three week delay between order
and delievery which put off most characters and players.
In short, yes it's possible but is it really worth it. The one character
that tried it found the skills he needed along with the equipment made this
more of a life's work than something he could do in his off time.
<snip>
Message no. 3
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 18:27:56 -0500
At 26-Aug-97 wrote Metal Phoenix:

>Can flechette rounds be dikoted?

Yup

>I think it would be incredibly expensive to dikote flechettes. The
>flechettes would have to be individually coated (also note that a
>flechette round's surface area is about ten times that of a normal round),
>increasing costs fifteenfold.

Its rather simple.
Just put the flechettes in a magnetic field which keeps them floating,
voila now you can direct the plasmastream on them.

>Damage would increase according to the rules in Shadowtech, which would
>make anything short of an Ares slivergun obsolete.

In fact its not worth in the cost-effectivity calculation.
But can scare the hell out of your opposition:)

--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 4
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:37:09 EDT
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 18:27:56 -0500 Barbie <barbie@**********.COM> writes:


>Its rather simple.
>Just put the flechettes in a magnetic field which keeps them
>floating,
>voila now you can direct the plasmastream on them.


Errrm . . . Barbie? Do you realize just what kind magnetic field that
would require? <shudder> (Can we say "stronger than most planets"? I knew
you could!)

Canthros
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:26:02 -0600
John E Pederson wrote:
|
| >Its rather simple.
| >Just put the flechettes in a magnetic field which keeps them
| >floating,
| >voila now you can direct the plasmastream on them.
|
| Errrm . . . Barbie? Do you realize just what kind magnetic field that
| would require? <shudder> (Can we say "stronger than most planets"? I
knew
| you could!)

They can allready do it today. If they can suspend a frog, they can
suspend a flechette.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 6
From: "EVE: Final Protection Mode" <ryoga@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:38:32 GMT
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:45:10 -0400, you wrote:
>Can flechette rounds be dikoted?
>
>This was a thought that was brought up in Fields.... Is it possible?
>What would the cost be? How about damage?
>

A lurker speaks :

Well, now that we're pretty much agreed that, yes it can be done (even
though we also agree that it would be difficult and expensive)

What -would- the effects be? Staging up the damage as per normal
effects of dikote on edged weapons comes to mind immediately..

*However* My personal take on it goes something like this to preserve
game balance.. it just removes the restrictions on flechette weapons.

Normal rules Dikote on say an Ares Viper. We now have a flechette
heavy pistol that does 9D damage per shot. 12D per burst. (However,
decent armor lowers this considerably. Your average armored jacket
makes it the equivalent of 6D) Strangely enough, since it's a
flechette weapon the Ares Viper gets a bonus to it's damage level
against unarmored targets.. making it a 9D/12D normally against them.
So you get a smaller bonus than first appears. (6D rather than 6M on
burst setting against armor jacket)

What I suggest instead is that Dikote on flechettes does not mess
around with the damage level at all initially. However, it would give
it better performance against armor. Here's my plan : Let Dikoted
flechette weapons recieve normal armor modifiers rather than 2X impact
or Ballistic whichever is better. Also, any kind of dermal armor
negates the unarmored damage increase bonus that normal flechette
weapons get... so dikoted flechettes would still get that bonus even
against dermal sheathing or plating or orthoskin. Basically I think it
makes more sense while making less work for the GM and still letting
Dikote flechettes be a worthwhile item to have. C&C?

-Eve
Message no. 7
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:42:38 +0100
In article <Pine.SGI.3.95.970826113600.24919A-
100000@*******.bergen.org>, Metal Phoenix <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
>Can flechette rounds be dikoted?

Sure.
>
>This was a thought that was brought up in Fields.... Is it possible?

Yes.

>What would the cost be?

Horrendous.

>How about damage?

The same as for normal flechettes.

Agaisnt unarmoured targets it makes no difference: might even reduce the
effectiveness.

Against hardened armour (i.e. with ceramic or metal inserts) it makes no
difference because the flechettes deform on impact and the DiKote layer
would flake off.


For melee weapons and projectile weapons DiKote could make a difference.
For bullets, though, impact velocities and strain rates are too high for
brittle layers a few molecules thick to make a difference to bullet
performance.

If it _did_ make a difference, then the logical place to start would be
APDS rounds, rather than flechette.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:47:05 EDT
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:26:02 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:

>They can allready do it today. If they can suspend a frog, they can
>suspend a flechette.


It just seems horrendously impractical, if you ask me. Why not just drop
the flechettes through a horizontal cylinder filled with the super-heated
plasma? Why do they have to be suspended at all? Especially since the
important part here is the leading edge, make your flechettes a bit
broader at the base than at the tip, run the tipe through the plasma,
you'll probably get the same effect and at most half the cost of fully
dikoting the slivers. And the way Paul is talking, there's not much point
to it anyway, not unless you want to use something like steel for your
flechettes.


Canthros
Message no. 9
From: niteGlo Messiah <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:09:14 -0400
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, David Buehrer wrote:

> John E Pederson wrote:
> |
> | >Its rather simple.
> | >Just put the flechettes in a magnetic field which keeps them
> | >floating,
> | >voila now you can direct the plasmastream on them.
> |
> | Errrm . . . Barbie? Do you realize just what kind magnetic field that
> | would require? <shudder> (Can we say "stronger than most planets"?
I knew
> | you could!)
>
> They can allready do it today. If they can suspend a frog, they can
> suspend a flechette.

Yes, but they didn't spray the frog later with high-pressure plasma soon
after.
Nontheless, I don't think suspending the flechette is a problem. They have
to do one side first, turn it over, and do the other side.

Metal Phoenix
Message no. 10
From: niteGlo Messiah <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:13:05 -0400
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, EVE: Final Protection Mode wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:45:10 -0400, you wrote:
> >Can flechette rounds be dikoted?
> >
> >This was a thought that was brought up in Fields.... Is it possible?
> >What would the cost be? How about damage?
> >
>
> A lurker speaks :
>
> Well, now that we're pretty much agreed that, yes it can be done (even
> though we also agree that it would be difficult and expensive)
>
> What -would- the effects be? Staging up the damage as per normal
> effects of dikote on edged weapons comes to mind immediately..
>
> *However* My personal take on it goes something like this to preserve
> game balance.. it just removes the restrictions on flechette weapons.
>
> Normal rules Dikote on say an Ares Viper. We now have a flechette
> heavy pistol that does 9D damage per shot. 12D per burst. (However,
> decent armor lowers this considerably. Your average armored jacket
> makes it the equivalent of 6D) Strangely enough, since it's a
> flechette weapon the Ares Viper gets a bonus to it's damage level
> against unarmored targets.. making it a 9D/12D normally against them.
> So you get a smaller bonus than first appears. (6D rather than 6M on
> burst setting against armor jacket)
>
> What I suggest instead is that Dikote on flechettes does not mess
> around with the damage level at all initially. However, it would give
> it better performance against armor. Here's my plan : Let Dikoted
> flechette weapons recieve normal armor modifiers rather than 2X impact
> or Ballistic whichever is better. Also, any kind of dermal armor
> negates the unarmored damage increase bonus that normal flechette
> weapons get... so dikoted flechettes would still get that bonus even
> against dermal sheathing or plating or orthoskin. Basically I think it
> makes more sense while making less work for the GM and still letting
> Dikote flechettes be a worthwhile item to have. C&C?
>
> -Eve
>
I don't think it's worth the added cost. You might as well be packing APDS
rounds. They probably have the same street index, avail., etc.
Message no. 11
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 06:55:16 -0600
At 08:13 8/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't think it's worth the added cost. You might as well be packing APDS
>rounds. They probably have the same street index, avail., etc.

PLEASE snip the posts you are replying too! Leave enough information so we
know what you're talking about, but we don't need the entire post quoted,
especially for two lines.

-Adam
afl

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 12
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:32:57 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 12:46:47 EDT, you write:

> Can flechette rounds be dikoted?
> The only way we allowed the flechette to be dikoted, was having
the
> flechettes specially made smaller in diameter to allow for the thickness
of
> the dikote, then each has to be loaded into a round because live ammo and
> plasma just don't mix. This process not only made these rounds expensive
> beyond most people's resources but also made a wonderful paper trail for
> the police to pick up on. There was also a three week delay between order
> and delievery which put off most characters and players.

Something we did in the home games was to say that when you have dikoted
flechettes, there is no metal flechette ... what the gun is firing are
flechettes made from dikote ...
Message no. 13
From: niteGlo Messiah <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:38:56 -0400
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Mike Bobroff wrote:

> In a message dated 97-08-26 12:46:47 EDT, you write:
>
> > Can flechette rounds be dikoted?
>
> Something we did in the home games was to say that when you have dikoted
> flechettes, there is no metal flechette ... what the gun is firing are
> flechettes made from dikote ...
>
You might as well be firing little pieces of compressed carbon: diamonds.

Metal Phoenix
Message no. 14
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:31:29 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 12:45:25 EDT, you write:

> >Can flechette rounds be dikoted?
> The only way we allowed the flechette to be dikoted, was having
the
> flechettes specially made smaller in diameter to allow for the thickness
of
> the dikote, then each has to be loaded into a round because live ammo and
> plasma just don't mix.

While it's true that plasma and live ammo don't mix, you could do flechettes
in job lots, assuming you can figure out how many flechettes equal the
100cm^2 surface area - believe me, it's a lot. And dikoting is a negligible
increase in thickness, a micron or two at the most.

> This process not only made these rounds expensive beyond most people's
> resources but also made a wonderful paper trail for the police to pick up
on. There
> was also a three week delay between order and delievery which put off most

> characters and players. In short, yes it's possible but is it really worth
it. The one
> character that tried it found the skills he needed along with the
equipment made
> this more of a life's work than something he could do in his off time.

Well, sure, you can make life exceptionally difficult for the PCs, but what
exactly is it going to do? Flechettes are already designed to punch through
armor, I don't think dikoting them is going to work all that well.
Personally, I'd let 'em get the dikoting, and wonder why all the lab techs
had amused expressions on their faces - right up until they try to use the
rounds. And find out that they spent a lot of time, effort, and favors owed
on absolutely nothing.

Wolfstar
Message no. 15
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:16:37 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-27 02:01:46 EDT, you write:

> Errrm . . . Barbie? Do you realize just what kind magnetic field that
> would require? <shudder> (Can we say "stronger than most planets"? I
knew
> you could!)

Not really. (You haven't been watching the nightly news of late, have you?)
I mean, they're floating frogs and acorns in magnetic fields over in Europe,
and they aren't even metal! =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 16
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:35:04 EDT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:16:37 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 97-08-27 02:01:46 EDT, you write:
>
>> Errrm . . . Barbie? Do you realize just what kind magnetic field
>that
>> would require? <shudder> (Can we say "stronger than most
planets"?
>I knew
>> you could!)
>
> Not really. (You haven't been watching the nightly news of late, have
>you?)


Nope, not usually. Not interesting enough most days (that would be the
American in me showing through:) and I can't deal with CNN, CNBC, MSNBC,
or Headline News for long enough to get anything out of them (waaay too
much info, very little of which bears any obvious relation to much of
anything I do.) And, yes, it would stronger than most planets, at least
within the localized area it affects, I should think. The MRI machines
produce a magnetic field about 100 times stronger than the Earth's, this
sounds waay more energy-intensive.


>I mean, they're floating frogs and acorns in magnetic fields over in
>Europe,
>and they aren't even metal! =)


And probably not as dense, either. And they would have various polar
molecules (water probably the most notable) and ions (pick a salt)
contained therein. Itty-bitty lead (or titanium) flechettes wouldn't
(excepting trace impurities, and that wouldn't be much). Steel or iron
you could probably do this way, if it wasn't instantly pulled into one
pole or the other.



/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 17
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:46:24 +0100
|> Errrm . . . Barbie? Do you realize just what kind magnetic field that
|> would require? <shudder> (Can we say "stronger than most planets"?
I knew
|> you could!)
|
| Not really. (You haven't been watching the nightly news of late, have you?)
|I mean, they're floating frogs and acorns in magnetic fields over in Europe,
|and they aren't even metal! =)

Metal has little to do with it.
If the <item> is capable of electrical conduction, then a large enough
alternating magnetic field will set up electrical currents in the <item>.
These electrical currents then form their own magnetic fields, which are of
the same polarity as the BIG electromanet. The fields repel, and the <item>
moves away from it in repultion....

Frogs contain impure water... (A not bad conductor)
Acorns contain water. Less, but it must be enough...
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:21:24 -0600
Spike wrote:
|
| |> Errrm . . . Barbie? Do you realize just what kind magnetic field that
| |> would require? <shudder> (Can we say "stronger than most
planets"? I knew
| |> you could!)
| |
| | Not really. (You haven't been watching the nightly news of late, have you?)
| |I mean, they're floating frogs and acorns in magnetic fields over in Europe,
| |and they aren't even metal! =)
|
| Metal has little to do with it.
| If the <item> is capable of electrical conduction, then a large enough
| alternating magnetic field will set up electrical currents in the <item>.

Actually, as long as the <item> has molecules it works. The
principle is based on molecular magnetism. There's a web site on the
whole experiment (which even has the equations). I don't have the
address, but you can find it if you do a web search on "levitating
(or levitate) + frog".

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 19
From: Jim Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:56:58 -0300
>> Errrm . . . Barbie? Do you realize just what kind magnetic field that
>> would require? <shudder> (Can we say "stronger than most
planets"? I
knew
>> you could!)
>
> Not really. (You haven't been watching the nightly news of late, have
you?)
>I mean, they're floating frogs and acorns in magnetic fields over in
Europe,
>and they aren't even metal! =)

Just as a monkey wrench to throw in there....While I realize that not all
flechettes are like this, the Ares Slivergun fires _plastic_ needles. Don't
know how many others do, but that kinda stops the whole question of how to
do it....the plastic would never survive the heat.....altho having a hollow
dikote shell that thin...hmm it would prolly shatter on impact and penetrate
putting small slivers in the bloodstream....that _might_ be worth something.
> Wolfstar
>
Jim
Message no. 20
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:04:00 GMT
on 26.08.97 levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG wrote:
l> Can flechette rounds be dikoted?

Yup!

l> This was a thought that was brought up in Fields.... Is it possible?
l> What would the cost be? How about damage?

We made them 1k *each*. They get +1 damage and do not suffer the -1 damage
as a normal flechette. Also, they are defended against only with ballistic
armor. Makes them real killers (Imagine: An Ares Viper with 9S damage
(that's 12T in BF)), but a hell to get you hands on. The one time a player
got some of these, they were three in a little silk filled wooden box. :)

(Oh, yeah: In our game, if the damage is above T without modifiers (like a
SPAS-22 w/ dikoted flechettes, which would do 10TT damage), each level
gives you one box of over-deadlier-damage)

Tobias
Message no. 21
From: Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:18:31 PDT
>l> Can flechette rounds be dikoted?
>
>Yup!
>
>l> This was a thought that was brought up in Fields.... Is it possible?
>l> What would the cost be? How about damage?
>
>We made them 1k *each*. They get +1 damage and do not suffer the -1
damage
>as a normal flechette. Also, they are defended against only with
ballistic
>armor. Makes them real killers (Imagine: An Ares Viper with 9S damage
>(that's 12T in BF)), but a hell to get you hands on. The one time a
player
>got some of these, they were three in a little silk filled wooden box.
:)
---------------------
Sorry, maybe I'm just dumb (no comments) but,
what does a damage code of "T" stand for?

Thanks,

Green Dog

===========================================================
An upturned tortise is the nineth most pathetic thing in
the entire multiverse.
An upturned tortise that knows what is going to happen next
is, well, at least up there at number four.
--Small Gods


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 22
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:37:42 -0500
At 28-Aug-97 wrote Gabriel Sims:

>Sorry, maybe I'm just dumb (no comments) but,
>what does a damage code of "T" stand for?

It comes from german, T stands for Tödlich. It means deadly in english.=


-- =

Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 23
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:21:00 GMT
on 28.08.97 grendel_22@*******.COM wrote:

g2> >armor. Makes them real killers (Imagine: An Ares Viper with 9S damage
g2> >(that's 12T in BF)), but a hell to get you hands on. The one time a
g2> player
g2> >got some of these, they were three in a little silk filled wooden box.
g2> :)
g2> ---------------------
g2> Sorry, maybe I'm just dumb (no comments) but,
g2> what does a damage code of "T" stand for?

Urgh. It's me, who's dumb. T means toedlich. That's German for deadly, so
T-damage is actually D-damage. I had to mix that up someday...

Tobias
Message no. 24
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:10:00 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-27 13:37:00 EDT, you write:

> Something we did in the home games was to say that when you have dikoted
> flechettes, there is no metal flechette ... what the gun is firing are
> flechettes made from dikote ...

How, precisely, do you make flechettes - or anything for that matter - from
a plasma version of diamond? You've got nothing that could act as a mold,
and it's too hard to shape at that size, never mind being cost prohibitive.

Wolfstar
Message no. 25
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Dikoting flechettes
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:16:09 GMT
On Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:10:00 -0400, George Metz wrote:

> How, precisely, do you make flechettes - or anything for that matter - from
> a plasma version of diamond? You've got nothing that could act as a mold,
> and it's too hard to shape at that size, never mind being cost prohibitive.

Flechettes are easy to make by shaping or extruding steel-- how do you
think pins and needles are made? :)

The trick with flechettes is to get their design down well enough that
they remain in specs. If they have a slight bend in them or the fins
aren't lined up properly, they can be as good as useless (kinda like
using a balloon filled with air as a projectile).

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Dikoting flechettes, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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