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From:	The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject:	Disappearing money ?
Date:	Sat, 30 Jul 1994 15:28:38 +0100

Message no. 1 Just a question which is probably aimed at the more computing minded of you
out there.

Money in shadowrun we are told exists nearly all on computers. So what is to
stop hackers <as they supposedly do> from crashing a countries economy by
breaking into banks all over the place and increasing people's balances by
some variable percentage ?

In theory nothing at all, but what would happen if suddenly the whole population
with a bank account became 20-30 % richer than they had been the day before.

It was this line of thought that got me to thinking about how money would be
represented on computers. In todays world their are simply numbers, but there
are also very large safes with massive amounts of money that should in theory
tally with the figures in the computers.

In the shadowrun world we are led to believe that cash as in coins and notes
only exists for very small denominations and is extremly rare except in places
like the barrens.

So how do you insure that what a bank says it has, it does indeed actually
have ?

Well I considered this problem and then I saw something on the risks forum
a while back about the NIST and the hash codes. I didn't get all the
information on this as the article was actually talking about hash code
being compromised. But the gist is that hash codes or the encryption is used
to verify messgaes, not just a PGP type signature but also verifies that the
text of the message has not been altered since the person who finished it
placed the hash code.

Now I got to thinking about this and realised that this would indeed be a
possible way of representing electronic money in a secure form. Basically
you would have a file that says 'I am 10 000 nuyen' or whatever and the file
would be self verifying in that when a check is run over the file the hash
table certifies that this is indeed 10 000. So essentially the deckers of the
future if they were to steal the money then they would have to download the
file. Which brings up another point in that there should only ever be one
copy of the file.

I'd be interested to hear other views on something that FASA has up to press
failed to address and I'm pretty certain failed to understand.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Fighting against
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | Political Correctness !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse

From:	Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Disappearing money ?
Date:	Sat, 30 Jul 1994 10:21:24 -0700

Message no. 2 This is an interesting one... I am NOT a hacker, programmer, or really
competent with a computer myself though. But here's the way I am planning
to handle the whole thing in Hardworld. Criticism will be accepted.

On Sat, 30 Jul 1994, The Powerhouse wrote:

> Just a question which is probably aimed at the more computing minded of you
> out there.
>
> Money in shadowrun we are told exists nearly all on computers. So what is to
> stop hackers <as they supposedly do> from crashing a countries economy by
> breaking into banks all over the place and increasing people's balances by
> some variable percentage ?

My first thought for Hardworld, and the one I'm using right now, is that
the "matrix" won't ever exist. All computer use will be done the way we
do it now. Mental interconnection via datajack, sure, but no "matrix" to
play in. Maybe I am visualizing this backwards, but I see "Virtual
Lobbies" and such on businesses, but fiber-optics are still
fiber-optics. No open vistas.

To get to where this interfaces with Powerhouse, getting into the actual
moneyfiles means physically getting into the bank. Diddling everyone's
balances would be a procedure akin to an annual audit. Slow, difficult,
and VERY complicated. And the Passwords needed aren't going to be available.

> In theory nothing at all, but what would happen if suddenly the whole population
> with a bank account became 20-30 % richer than they had been the day before.

Inflation! no, make that INFLATION!!! Hardworld has inflation, most
curreencies change 1 to 60 percentage points each hour.

> It was this line of thought that got me to thinking about how money would be
> represented on computers. In todays world their are simply numbers, but there
> are also very large safes with massive amounts of money that should in theory
> tally with the figures in the computers.

In theory, even today. But actually most of that "money" is uncollected
debts. Not real, nor even valid. Inflation is hard at work.

> In the shadowrun world we are led to believe that cash as in coins and notes
> only exists for very small denominations and is extremly rare except in places
> like the barrens.

And nothing really backs it up. They have an example of that with the
US$ in the NAGNA. Same thing in Hardworld.

> So how do you insure that what a bank says it has, it does indeed actually
> have ?

Can't be done, not even now.

> Well I considered this problem and then I saw something on the risks forum
> a while back about the NIST and the hash codes. I didn't get all the
> information on this as the article was actually talking about hash code
> being compromised. But the gist is that hash codes or the encryption is used
> to verify messgaes, not just a PGP type signature but also verifies that the
> text of the message has not been altered since the person who finished it
> placed the hash code.

Sounds like a way to guarantee the security of a transfer, but not to
make sure the "money's in the bank".

> Now I got to thinking about this and realised that this would indeed be a
> possible way of representing electronic money in a secure form. Basically
> you would have a file that says 'I am 10 000 nuyen' or whatever and the file
> would be self verifying in that when a check is run over the file the hash
> table certifies that this is indeed 10 000. So essentially the deckers of the
> future if they were to steal the money then they would have to download the
> file. Which brings up another point in that there should only ever be one
> copy of the file.

Yeah, so would that slow anyone down? Actually, what that would do is
cut the fixers out of a large amount of Baksheesh. The file IS that sum,
so it really doesn't need laundering. Just deposit in a Caribbe Bank as
money. Or an African one.

>
> I'd be interested to hear other views on something that FASA has up to press
> failed to address and I'm pretty certain failed to understand.

I don't think they worried about it. With the Matrix and all, they had
to leave something in for deckers to steal. Like in the books... But
the writers didn't want it complicated either. So they designed it the
way they did.

I'm going a bit more complicated with Hardworld, and I want the whole
thing to make sense. Can anyone give me a reason that encoded cashcards,
televerification, and solid money won't work? And can anyone please give
me a reason that the Matrix _would_ exist? Other than "It's in the
cyberpunk genre"? BTW< When I say "solid money" I am talking about the
4
countries on the planet that DO have solid money. (America ain't one of
them, sorry) The solid money is backed by Gold, but everyone else's
money just floats and varies wildly.

Ivy

From:	Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Disappearing money ?
Date:	Sat, 30 Jul 1994 13:22:05 CDT

Message no. 3 These ideas are why I have always been a supporter of returning to the
gold standard... Might also have the added benefit of preventing the gov't
from continually printing money to aid other countries, etc. What the yahoos
in gov't don't realize is that they are devaluating their own money with their
actions...

-Jeff

From:	Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Disappearing money ?
Date:	Sat, 30 Jul 1994 14:05:35 -0500

Message no. 4 Why would the Matrix exist? Because it's a lot like the Internet with a really
cool visual interface.

Hell, I wrote a mouse/keyboard driven Matrix-like interface for a computer lab
once. It was pretty cool...wonder where I put the software.

Ever played with AOL? It's got a kinda slick interface...not as slick as glass,
unlike my programming work (*GRIN*), but it does sorta put a visual interface
on the Internet.

From:	Joseph Cotton <Joseph.Cotton@*******.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Disappearing money ?
Date:	Sun, 31 Jul 1994 01:43:11 EDT

Message no. 5 On Sat 30 Jul 1994, The Powerhouse wrote:

> It was this line of thought that got me to thinking about how money would be
> represented on computers. In todays world their are simply numbers, but there
> are also very large safes with massive amounts of money that should in theory
> tally with the figures in the computers.

Um, Phill, I hate to burst your bubble, but actually quite a bit of money
today exists only in virtual form. Ever see "It's a Wonderful Life"?
Remember the scene where George is trying to explain that everyone can't
just yank their money out of the savings and loan because their money's
being invested in building houses and such? Works the same way now.
There are gobs of EFTs going on that are basically only shifting data
around every day.

Joe Cotton
Joseph.Cotton@*********.unc.edu

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