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Message no. 1
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 16:17:44 +6000
As a new twist to disarming mages I had a thought. Are there
colonies in space station/moon/other planet. Although I think
the answer is not as such. (except the manned space stations)
how about ares opening a mage prison on the moon - small and
maybe expensive but ultimate for those important mages you can't
just do away with or de-mage with essence loss.

No astral perception / projection / spell cating :)

To expensive for PC's, well let them know about it, have it
appear in the background of a run then. Next time a mage
is caught, drugged unconcious, have him wake up asking in
bleary tones -- where am I? tell him he's on the moon
and he'll not try a thing. Even if he's in some basement
in seattle :) would you risk it?

Any problems, suggestions, variations?

Phil
-no, the other one :)

<philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 2
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@**.ERAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 13:54:14 -0700
On Fri, 21 Apr 1995, Philip Hayward wrote:

[sending mages to the moon stuff deleted]
>
> Any problems, suggestions, variations?

How would you get 'em there? I thought mages went crazy if they left the
atmosphere?

/------------------------\/-------------\
|Jason Ustica || Embry-Riddle|
|usticaj@**.erau.edu || Aeronautical|
|GO L.A. KINGS!! (please)|| University |
\------------------------/| Prescott,AZ |
\-------------/
Message no. 3
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 23:34:26 +0200
> [sending mages to the moon stuff deleted]
> >
> > Any problems, suggestions, variations?
>
> How would you get 'em there? I thought mages went crazy if they left the
> atmosphere?

A magician *could* go crazy if he tried to do something magical
when actually *in* the outer layer (great barrier) that surrounds earth.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 12:40:21 +0200
>As a new twist to disarming mages I had a thought. Are there
>colonies in space station/moon/other planet. Although I think
>the answer is not as such. (except the manned space stations)
>how about ares opening a mage prison on the moon - small and
>maybe expensive but ultimate for those important mages you can't
>just do away with or de-mage with essence loss.

Chummer, if you want to get rid of someone so badly you have a simple
choice: spend a couple of million getting him on the moon, or spend 2 nuyen
to put a bullet in his forehead. Which would be most likely, you think?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is contagious
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 12:40:39 +0200
>How would you get 'em there? I thought mages went crazy if they left the
>atmosphere?

Only if they try to use magic. That really fragged our shaman during
Harlequin, having to leave her spell locks behind and not being able to cast
that all-powerful Mana Bolt at those attackers...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is contagious
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 6
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 22:55:16 +1000
Philip Hayward writes:

> [Imprisoning magicians in space]

Well, it'd work, that's for sure. But there are many cheaper methods which
can be used just as effectively down on earth (the "concrete cell" mentioned
not long ago). The cost involved is simply too high, one can do just as well
for a tiny fraction of the cost down on earth. But the idea of it is quite
evil, especially if one makes it a street rumour, because then one can taunt
captive magicians no end... <evil GM grin>

--------------------
Jason Ustica writes:

> How would you get 'em there? I thought mages went crazy if they left the
> atmosphere?

That's only if they leave the astmosphere while astrally projecting.
Magicians can quite happily travel on semi-ballistics past the atmosphere,
even into orbit, as long as the don't try anything like spell casting or
astral perception/projection.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 7
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 13:11:23 BST
Gurth Wrote :-
> Only if they try to use magic. That really fragged our shaman during
> Harlequin, having to leave her spell locks behind and not being able to cast
> that all-powerful Mana Bolt at those attackers...

Hey, I don't remember any out-of-the-atmosphere stuff in Harlequin,
you mean you count being on a metaplane as off-the-planet? OR am I
missing something here?

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:36:21 +1000
P Ward writes:

> Hey, I don't remember any out-of-the-atmosphere stuff in Harlequin,
> you mean you count being on a metaplane as off-the-planet? OR am I
> missing something here?

Try _Harlequin_ not _Harlequin's Back_.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 9
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 13:43:52 BST
Damion :-
> Try _Harlequin_ not _Harlequin's Back_.

Oh, the semi-ballistic on the way to Germany, _NOW_ I remember.

I had runners trying to disarm their cyber-restrains with those little,
plastic coffee spoons for that fight!

Mind you, I boosted the opposition up a bit to give them a run for their
money, anyone who thinks they can Hijack a semi-b had better be hard (or
insane).

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 23:47:17 +0930
P Ward wrote:
> Hey, I don't remember any out-of-the-atmosphere stuff in Harlequin,
> you mean you count being on a metaplane as off-the-planet? OR am I
> missing something here?

SPOILER ALERT!!! (well, not much of a one...)

In the _original_ "Harlequin" (ie, the first one), there's a bit where you
hop onto a suborbital. At the peak of the flight (when you are out of the
atmosphere), you get into a fight.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 11
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 10:01:23 +6000
Damion wrote:

>> $Imprisoning magicians in space!
>
> Well, it'd work, that's for sure. But there are many cheaper methods which
> can be used just as effectively down on earth (the "concrete cell"
mentioned
> not long ago). The cost involved is simply too high, one can do just as well
> for a tiny fraction of the cost down on earth. But the idea of it is quite
> evil, especially if one makes it a street rumour, because then one can taunt
> captive magicians no end... <evil GM grin>

I was never suggesting sending PC's to the moon, but rather the taunting
so all I have to do is get them to believe in it, but that may need more
than street rumour. If there was one it would be known about right,
so unless a corp started the rumour (not impossible) by a couple of low
low profile leaks :) it might seem implausable. I know I'll have a
johnson set up our decker to snatch a file from their own company files :)
maybe rely on her getting nosey :) then a couple of runs later, have the
rumour spread - I might have my work cut out but it might just be worth it.
I assume phys-ads won't use any of their powers either?

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 18:38:09 +0930
Philip Hayward wrote:
[ Context: mages in space. ]
> I assume phys-ads won't use any of their powers either?

With the exception of Astral Perception, physads don't really draw their
powers from Astral Space. Logically, one of two things would happen: they
would either have no penalties ('cept for APercept, of course), or go stark
raving mad pretty much instantly... :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 13
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 17:04:26 +0200
> > Only if they try to use magic. That really fragged our shaman during
> > Harlequin, having to leave her spell locks behind and not being able to cast
> > that all-powerful Mana Bolt at those attackers...
>
> Hey, I don't remember any out-of-the-atmosphere stuff in Harlequin,
> you mean you count being on a metaplane as off-the-planet? OR am I
> missing something here?

He meant the original Harlequin not HB :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 14
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:06:55 -0600
wafflemiester wrote:
/
/ But more on topic, how would you handle taking somebody's gun away in
/ SR?

The guy doing the mugging is doing an ambush. He has suprise on his victim
(most of the time :).

The mugger uses his action to aim the gun at the victim and then delay
his action (which will be to shoot his victim if he's attacked). Note,
this is for a smart mugger. The dumb ones think that pointing a gun at
someone is all they need to do and don't actually think about needing to
shoot their victim.

If the victim decides to attack he has a number of obstacles to overcome.

If the victim's Reaction is higher he can act first and has a chance of
beating the mugger. If the mugger's Reaction is higher then he pulls the
trigger as soon as the victim starts to move at him.

If the mugger is smart enough to be standing back then the victim has
to move into them, which per SR rules give the mugger a chance to
attack the victim (bang).

If the mugger is standing within the victim's reach then it get's tricky.

If the mugger has been delaying his action then I would do this:

The victim roles his unarmed combat skill. The mugger roles his
firearms skill. The one with the most successes attacks the other.
The victim has the called shot modifier applied if he's going for the
gun. The mugger has the "firing in melee" modifier applied.

It's kind of a toss up at to what to do if you're the victim. If
you're really good and really strong, I'd suggest disarming the mugger
before you beat the crap out of him. If you're not so strong, or don't
have much skill, give them what they want. Going for the gun is a
*very* risky proposition.

I'm studying Hopkido (a 100% self defense martial art) and had the
pleasure of watching someone test for their Second Black Belt. During
the test he had to defend himself against someone holding a gun on him
within striking range. Every time his first act was to attack the gun,
either knocking it out of the "mugger's" hand, or using a grab/lock to
gain control of the gun. Only after he neutralized the gun did he
attack the mugger.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 15
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:46:47 -0500
<snip David Buehrer's descriptions>

>If the mugger has been delaying his action then I would do this:
>
>The victim roles his unarmed combat skill. The mugger roles his
>firearms skill. The one with the most successes attacks the other.
>The victim has the called shot modifier applied if he's going for the gun.
>The mugger has the "firing in melee" modifier applied.

This may be quite reasonable, however one should note that this is a
house rule. Officially, someone delaying his actions resolves them
immediately after the other person has _declared_ their intended action,
completely _before_ their action is resolved.

I supose one "hack" to give a skilled/quick victim a chance would be to
have them delay their action as well, and then have them attack as a
reaction to some other event. With both characters using delayed
actions, it gets resolved as under "initiative tie" (BBB page 80). I might
discourage this by saying that delaying a melee attack action is visible:
i.e. you are tensing up, prepared to spring. An intelligent mugger might
just shoot you right then.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 16
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:11:26 PDT
>With both characters using delayed
>actions, it gets resolved as under "initiative tie" (BBB page 80). I
might
>discourage this by saying that delaying a melee attack action is
visible:
>i.e. you are tensing up, prepared to spring. An intelligent mugger
might
>just shoot you right then.
>
>Double-Domed Mike
>

I'm really suprised how depraved you all think your common street
scum is (and I'm the one who's friend was mugged). An INTEELEGENT
mugger would do anything possible NOT to shoot the victim, most times.
Its INTIMIDATION, not combat, when he does the job right. The mugger
has the option of running away when things look unlikey to work, you
know.
Even miltary guards won't genrally shoot just because the person
being covered "tenses up".
I admit, there's no garuntees on the street, but in these disarming
examples, don't use "mugger" when you mean "murder / combatent". I'm
not picking on Mike here- Big Daddy's post was even more flagrently
overstated in this context ; I think he advised a smart mugger would
kill the victim from a distance, then take thier stuff, or something to
that effect.
Of course, in SR, muggers could use gel rounds- I don't buy this
"gangers have light pistols" crap, since they use heavy's and fully's
TODAY, so the gels would work dandy for mugging.

-Mongoose-

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Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Disarming
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:39:57 -0600
Mike Elkins wrote:
/
/ <snip David Buehrer's descriptions>
/
/ >If the mugger has been delaying his action then I would do this:
/ >
/ >The victim roles his unarmed combat skill. The mugger roles his
/ >firearms skill. The one with the most successes attacks the other.
/ >The victim has the called shot modifier applied if he's going for the gun.
/ >The mugger has the "firing in melee" modifier applied.
/
/ This may be quite reasonable, however one should note that this is a
/ house rule. Officially, someone delaying his actions resolves them
/ immediately after the other person has _declared_ their intended action,
/ completely _before_ their action is resolved.

Woops. Forgot about that. And I forgot to mention that it was a house
rule fix. Two bads in one post :(

/ I supose one "hack" to give a skilled/quick victim a chance would be to
/ have them delay their action as well, and then have them attack as a
/ reaction to some other event. With both characters using delayed
/ actions, it gets resolved as under "initiative tie" (BBB page 80). I might
/ discourage this by saying that delaying a melee attack action is visible:
/ i.e. you are tensing up, prepared to spring. An intelligent mugger might
/ just shoot you right then.

Your typical civilian will tense up. Your skilled martial artist may
not. I'd have the mugger (this is a house rule) make a suprise test
modified by adding the victim's unarmed combat skill, -2 (since the
mugger is looking right at him). So if the victim has a skill of 3 the
target number would be a 5 (4 + 3 - 2). If the mugger makes the test
then he can shoot the victim. If he fails then treat him as if he's
suprised per the rules.

Use this only if the victim is within striking range of the mugger. If
the victim has to move into the mugger then the mugger can definitly
see him coming and shoot the victim if he wants.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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