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From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:02:48 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 1 I wish I had thought of this a long time ago. Might have even been
able to make some money off of it for the SR3 Companion. Ah well.

What follows are some new rules for Diseases and Toxins.

A disease or toxin has the following ratings: Attack(Time Period),
Body, Power, and Damage Level(Stun or Physical). Diseases and toxins
also have damage tracks.

Examples

Disease - A:4(24Hrs), B:3, 3L(Stun)

Toxin - A:8(1Rnd), B10, 7S

When a character is "attacked" by a disease or toxin treat it like
melee combat. How often a disease/toxin attacks is based on it's Time
Period. The disease in the example attacks every 24 hours, the toxin
every round.

The character uses his body, and the disease/toxin uses it's attack
strength. Both roll vs a TN of 4. Compare successes.

If the disease/toxin rolls more successes then it damages the
character. Extra success (subtract the character's successes from the
disease/toxin's successes) stage the damage. The character makes a
damage resistance test vs the power and damage level of the disease.

Keep in mind that as the character takes damage wound modifiers will affect
their "combat" tests vs the disease/toxin (and any other success test they
attempt while infected/poisoned).

If the character rolls more successes then his system damages the
disease, or filters the toxin. Treat this as if the disease/toxin has
been damaged (again, staging damage with any additional successes).
The disease/toxin uses it's Body to resist damage with power equal to
the character's body, and a damage level of Moderate. Record any
damage taken on the disease/toxin's damage track. As a disease is
damaged, or a toxin is filtered, it becomes less effective. Apply
wound modifier's to subsequent "combats" with the disease/toxin.

When a disease/toxin has taken Deadly damage it has been
defeated/filtered.

The symptoms that affect a character are based on the ammount of
damage he has taken from the disease/toxin.

Example: Common Cold

Light Stun: Sniffling
Moderate Stun: 1D6 of the following
Sneezing
Head Congestion
Sore Throat
Coughing
Fever
Body Aches
Serious Stun: 1D2 of the following
Lung Congestion
High Fever
Deadly Stun: Unconcious

Comments?

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:23:40 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 2 On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, David Buehrer wrote:

> What follows are some new rules for Diseases and Toxins.

[SNIP actual rules]

> Comments?

I like this! I especially like the way it can handle anything
from an immediate, fast-acting poison to a long, drawn-out wasting
disease. If you come up with a list of toxins/diseases and their stats,
I'd be interested in seeing them.
Alternately, if you want volunteers for a little research for
creating such a list, I'd definitely be interested.

Marc (whose campaign involves the PC's hoofing around the disease-infested
jungles of Southeast Asia).

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:23:00 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 3 Marc Renouf wrote:
/
/
/
/ On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, David Buehrer wrote:
/
/ > What follows are some new rules for Diseases and Toxins.
/
/ [SNIP actual rules]
/
/ > Comments?
/
/ I like this! I especially like the way it can handle anything
/ from an immediate, fast-acting poison to a long, drawn-out wasting
/ disease. If you come up with a list of toxins/diseases and their stats,
/ I'd be interested in seeing them.
/ Alternately, if you want volunteers for a little research for
/ creating such a list, I'd definitely be interested.
/
/ Marc (whose campaign involves the PC's hoofing around the disease-infested
/ jungles of Southeast Asia).

:) I'll take any help anyone gives me. Also, if anyone can point me to
a book or website that lists diseases/toxins, their severity, their
symptoms, and how long they last, I'd really appreciate it.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:32:31 +0100

Message no. 4 According to David Buehrer, at 10:23 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> :) I'll take any help anyone gives me. Also, if anyone can point me to
> a book or website that lists diseases/toxins, their severity, their
> symptoms, and how long they last, I'd really appreciate it.

Didn't I send you that info from Twilight: 2000 long ago for something you
were planning to write back then that was very similar to this?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:33:54 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 5 Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to David Buehrer, at 10:23 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
/ the street was...
/
/ > :) I'll take any help anyone gives me. Also, if anyone can point me to
/ > a book or website that lists diseases/toxins, their severity, their
/ > symptoms, and how long they last, I'd really appreciate it.
/
/ Didn't I send you that info from Twilight: 2000 long ago for something you
/ were planning to write back then that was very similar to this?

Yes you did, and I still have it. I'm just trying to get as many sources
as I can :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:09:10 -0500

Message no. 6 David Buehrer wrote:

> What follows are some new rules for Diseases and Toxins.
>
> A disease or toxin has the following ratings: Attack(Time Period),
> Body, Power, and Damage Level(Stun or Physical). Diseases and toxins
> also have damage tracks.
>
> Examples
>
> Disease - A:4(24Hrs), B:3, 3L(Stun)
>
> Toxin - A:8(1Rnd), B10, 7S

<snip disease/toxin combat>

> Comments?

I like these rules, but have one basic question. How would the
presence of bioware such as pathogenic defense and toxin extractor
affect these rules.

--
"My fellow Americans,
I'm pleased to tell you today, that I've signed legislation that
will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes"
-Ronald Reagan

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489

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PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
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From:	Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:08:44 -0500

Message no. 7 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:09 PM 2/23/99 -0500, Iridios wrote:
>David Buehrer wrote:
>> What follows are some new rules for Diseases and Toxins.
>>
>> A disease or toxin has the following ratings: Attack(Time Period),
>> Body, Power, and Damage Level(Stun or Physical). Diseases and
toxins
>> also have damage tracks.
<<Snip>>
>I like these rules, but have one basic question. How would the
>presence of bioware such as pathogenic defense and toxin extractor
>affect these rules.

And since we're asking questions (and I don't remember getting the
original to this one yet, maybe it'll show up next week) here's mine:

How does dosage affect toxins? FASA never seemed to have considered
dosage very well, which makes the rules for such weapons as the Ares
Cascade rather unworkable.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:05:45 EST

Message no. 8 In a message dated 99-02-23 19:08:41 EST, you write:

> > Comments?
>
> I like these rules, but have one basic question. How would the
> presence of bioware such as pathogenic defense and toxin extractor
> affect these rules.
>

I was thinking about that too. Would they add their level to the Number of
dice the player got to roll, or add their power to the TN for the Infection's
success?

Personally, I think the way they are described they would add dice for the
resistance roll, allowing a strong enough TE in that body 8 troll to ignore
just about anything less than something like Vitas or HMMV

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:13:44 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 9 Starrngr@***.com wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 99-02-23 19:08:41 EST, you write:
/
/ > > Comments?
/ >
/ > I like these rules, but have one basic question. How would the
/ > presence of bioware such as pathogenic defense and toxin extractor
/ > affect these rules.
/
/ I was thinking about that too. Would they add their level to the Number of
/ dice the player got to roll, or add their power to the TN for the Infection's
/ success?

I haven't worked out all the details yet :) but that's my inclination.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:20:09 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 10 Paul Gettle wrote:
/
/ How does dosage affect toxins? FASA never seemed to have considered
/ dosage very well, which makes the rules for such weapons as the Ares
/ Cascade rather unworkable.

Again, something I haven't quite figured out yet :)

What do you think of just using the FA rules? Each extra dose
increases the Attack rating and Power of the toxin by +1. Every three
doses also increases the Damage Level by +1.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:15:11 -0500

Message no. 11 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:20 AM 2/24/99 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
>/ How does dosage affect toxins? FASA never seemed to have considered
>/ dosage very well, which makes the rules for such weapons as the
Ares
>/ Cascade rather unworkable.
>
>Again, something I haven't quite figured out yet :)
>
>What do you think of just using the FA rules? Each extra dose
>increases the Attack rating and Power of the toxin by +1. Every
three
>doses also increases the Damage Level by +1.

At first blush, this seems ok. (And I have always wanted a Narcoject
Dart weapon that could do Autofire.)

How would you deal with the situation of partial dosage then, say from
spray weapons set on a wide dispersal pattern?

And also, would it be possible to get toxins in a more concentrated
form, allowing for more than one dose per drug-dart or splat of DSMO
gel?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Veskrashen veskrashen@*******.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:13:03 -0600

Message no. 12 David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Starrngr@***.com wrote:
> /
> / In a message dated 99-02-23 19:08:41 EST, you write:
> /
> / > > Comments?
> / >
> / > I like these rules, but have one basic question. How would the
> / > presence of bioware such as pathogenic defense and toxin extractor
> / > affect these rules.
> /
> / I was thinking about that too. Would they add their level to the Number of
> / dice the player got to roll, or add their power to the TN for the Infection's
> / success?
>
> I haven't worked out all the details yet :) but that's my inclination.
>
> -David B.

Since we're talking about chemical compounds rules, has anyone
thought about rewriting the addiction rules to cover the fact taht
most addicts don't die within 12 weeks ("the character loses 1/2 point
of essence pre week, and 1 box off his or her maximum condition
monitors")? this has always seemed to be kinda off to me.Then again,
it would be a really sneaky way to assasinate a heavily cybered
individual ("essence of 0.1? well, since you lose 1/2 essence per
week, that gives you about a day and a half to live...") <EGMG>

-Mojo.

From:	JonSzeto@*.com JonSzeto@*.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:15:28 EST

Message no. 13 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org> wrote,

> What follows are some new rules for Diseases and Toxins.

<snippety snip>

> When a character is "attacked" by a disease or toxin treat it like
> melee combat. How often a disease/toxin attacks is based on it's Time
> Period. The disease in the example attacks every 24 hours, the toxin
> every round.

<more snipping>

It's an innovative mechanic, and I find it very appealing when used in
conjunction with diseases. However, on the toxin side of things, I have some
reservations about the general concept.

One of the things I did previously in the Army was NBC (bugs, gas, and nukes),
and I can tell you that chemical contamination just doesn't work that way; the
body doesn't "fight" the effects by filtering the contaminant: six grams of
sarin nerve gas will still kill you regardless of how healthy you are. And it
won't go away until either the toxin has used itself up prematurely, or
someone administers an antidote. Basically, the only factors in severity were
determined by concentration, exposure, and (to a small degree) body mass.

What I would propose for the toxin side is something similar to 3rd edition
resolution of combat spells: roll a number of dice based on the relative
concentration (1= weak, 4= average, 10= strong) against a TN equal to the Body
of the victim, modified by chemical protection and/or exposure factors. If the
poison gets no successes, no effect. If it does, it inflicts a base damage,
stepped up 1 level per 2 successes. This damage takes effect after the listed
duration time passes.

This damage can be resisted only by chemical antidotes or any active
detoxification system (that actively seek out poisons, as opposed to the
kidneys, which passively wait for the blood to bring it to them). They make a
damage resistance test against the Power of the toxin, as usual, with
modifiers based on time since exposure. This stages the damage down from the
damage level the toxin had achieved.

-- Jon

From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:33:26 EST

Message no. 14 In a message dated 99-02-24 13:11:36 EST, you write:

> Since we're talking about chemical compounds rules, has anyone
> thought about rewriting the addiction rules to cover the fact taht
> most addicts don't die within 12 weeks ("the character loses 1/2 point
> of essence pre week, and 1 box off his or her maximum condition
> monitors")? this has always seemed to be kinda off to me.Then again,
> it would be a really sneaky way to assasinate a heavily cybered
> individual ("essence of 0.1? well, since you lose 1/2 essence per
> week, that gives you about a day and a half to live...") <EGMG>
>
> -Mojo.
>

Hmm. I think the rules david has come up with here could work for addicitive
drugs as well. A drug would get two ratings, one for its addictiveness, and a
toxin code that represents the damage it does over the long term.

Any time someone uses the drug, they have to make a resistance test as per the
addictiveness rating just like the damage test. If the drug wins, your
addicted. This also gives a better rules for kicking the jones, since you
would have to get enough successes to "damage" the addiction down to 0 before
you could kick it clean.

And obvously the damage code would work just like the toxin rules for
determining effects on the body.

And as a side note: Toxin extractors would add their levels to the TN for the
drug's successes, which means that in order to take enough to overcome the
toxin extractor, you could well take an overdose....

From:	Ken Hart satyr9@********.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:07:36 -0000

Message no. 15 And so it was that David Buehrer did write:
--
>:) I'll take any help anyone gives me. Also, if anyone can point me to
>a book or website that lists diseases/toxins, their severity, their
>symptoms, and how long they last, I'd really appreciate it.

Writer's Digest put out a series of reference books for crime authors or anyone else
interested in police procedure, body trauma, etc. I have a couple of them, and they're
pretty good. The one you might want is "Deadly Doses: A Writer's Guide to
Poisons."

If you're interested, the WD catalog is at:
http://www.writersdigest.com/catalog/index.htm

--Ken Hart
satyr9@********.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~evilweb/
"Another vanishing corpse, Tony. I tell you, it's terrific!" --Carl Kolchak

Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:34:30 +0100

Message no. 16 According to Veskrashen, at 12:13 on 24 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Since we're talking about chemical compounds rules, has anyone
> thought about rewriting the addiction rules to cover the fact taht
> most addicts don't die within 12 weeks ("the character loses 1/2 point
> of essence pre week, and 1 box off his or her maximum condition
> monitors")? this has always seemed to be kinda off to me.

Actually it's in 10 weeks (due to the loss of condition monitor boxes).
Anyway, yes, I have; the rules I came up with appear in Paranoid Animals
of North America
(http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/pana.html), somewhere
in the rules section in the back. These rules increase the required dosage
when you fail an addiction test, instead of simply making you immune to
the substance (another flaw in the Shadowtech addiction rules) and Essence
loss is 0.5 points per week, divided by 1 plus the number of successes on
a test against the Addiction rating of the drug. Losing damage boxes only
happens when you totally fail a test, which is not often.

It still usually won't allow an addict to live for years, but they
certainly live longer than by the rules from Shadowtech.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:42:11 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 17 On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Iridios wrote:

> I like these rules, but have one basic question. How would the
> presence of bioware such as pathogenic defense and toxin extractor
> affect these rules.

Wouldn't most of the systems just increase your effective Body?
I'd think that that would be the easist way to reflect the addition that
they make, while still keeping more or less consistent with the rules. By
having a higher Body, you're likely to get more successes on the "combat"
test versus the disease/toxin, which in turn means it's less likely to
affect you, and will last a shorter amount of time.

Marc

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Diseases and Toxins
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:58:47 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 18 On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Veskrashen wrote:

> Since we're talking about chemical compounds rules, has anyone
> thought about rewriting the addiction rules to cover the fact taht
> most addicts don't die within 12 weeks...

Yes. I just ignore the Essence and condition monitor losses all
together. I make addiction a long, drawn-out process. What will
eventually kill you is either a) bad shit, b) overdose, or c) both. A
rare few drugs actually do permanent physical harm to you, but those are
handled on an individual basis.

> This has always seemed to be kinda off to me.Then again,
> it would be a really sneaky way to assasinate a heavily cybered
> individual ("essence of 0.1? well, since you lose 1/2 essence per
> week, that gives you about a day and a half to live...") <EGMG>

Basically the only reason FASA did it that way was so they could
say, "See, drugs are *bad*" and make all the concerned parents happy. If
they kept with the typical cyberpunk ideal (as seen in Gibson, Effinger,
Williams, and Stephenson novels), drug use would be damn near socially
acceptable, and there would be numerous samurai out on the street taking
drugs to get their edge rather than implanting cyberware. I've tried to
capture this in my campaign, and as a result one of my players is playing
a decker who uses a variety of drugs to get rid of wound modifiers before
going on major decking runs. He's not an addict yet, but it's coming.

Marc

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