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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: DLOH
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 1994 09:38:37 +0200
I was in a record store yesterday, and, when flipping through the
singles, I noticed that Primal Scream (I believe) has a single called
Rocks, and the back said "Produced by Tom Dowd" This can't be the DLoH,
can it?



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Gurth + In this bright future +
+ (jweste%smtp@******.hzeeland.nl) + You can't forget your past +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: DLoH
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 14:11:59 +0200
>What is DLoH? Is it a supplement by FASA

Nope.

>or is it another "sounds reasonble" discussion group

Wrong again.

>or is it someone altogether different?

Right. It's the Dark Lord On High, aka Tom Dowd (just check the first
couple of pages of any SR-book, you'll come across his name).
Message no. 3
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: DLOH
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 13:30:08 -0400
Georg wrote:

>If Tom Dowd sometimes said that it's possible I'm sure it was on some
>convention where he had to answer between 100-1000 questions in 2
>minutes and all this stuff was getting on his nerves. So anyone asked
>him whether grounding was possible in this "say yes if you don't want
>to be called a dumbhead" manner and he just said yes, because he
>didn't think about it quietly and probably didn't even know the rules.
>
>O.K. - that's it, I suppose...

I've heard Tom Dowd do Q&A; his answers were thoughtful. Moreover, if you
think he would be intimidated by some jackass at a convention, I think
you've misjudged his character [I'm assuming that you've met the man and
made a personal judgement]. I've played with Mr. Dowd as the DM and watched
part of another game he was running. My judgement is that he knows the
rules; why do you believe he doesn't know the rules?
I seem to recall that the DLOH's statement about grounding through quickened
spells came about through questioning by a listmember via AOL, perhaps an
old-timer on the list could refresh our collective memory.

You strike me as a kindred spirit - a real died in the wool By-The-Book
gamer. IMHO suggesting that Mr. Dowd doesn't know the rules is not likely to
advance your argument. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 4
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 20:20:00 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 20:19:57 +0100 (MET)

> I've heard Tom Dowd do Q&A; his answers were thoughtful. Moreover, if you
> think he would be intimidated by some jackass at a convention, I think
> you've misjudged his character [I'm assuming that you've met the man and
> made a personal judgement]. I've played with Mr. Dowd as the DM and watched
> part of another game he was running. My judgement is that he knows the
> rules; why do you believe he doesn't know the rules?

Take a look at "Burning Bright", p.162-163. There Kyle Teller uses a
far seeing spell in the astral plane to watch the drone that comes
looking for the stuff that blocks the lens of the camera - this MIGHT
work if you have altered the Clearvoyance spell to work correctly in
the astral space and to look through walls. But THEN he does something
that's absolutely violating 2 main rules of the astral space:

A.) He is casting a spell using the Clearvoyance spell for LOS,
because he doesn't have LOS while casting his "Magic Fingers" spell.

B.) He casts the "Magic Fingers" spell at a bag of paper - and NO, the
bag didn't have foci on it, so there was NO WAY how he could have
affected the bag in this way.

This is absolutely impossible if you look at the "by the book" rules
and would imbalance the game like nothing else, because you could A.)
affect targets that don't even have an astral presence and B.) no
longer need LOS for spells. THIS is why I think he doesn't know the
rules. Unfortunately I never met him personally (not everyone can be
as great as you are, thank you for telling us dumblings how great and
wise you are), because I live in Germany - that makes it rather
difficult to meet Tom Dowd personally.
Don't get me wrong: I like his books, but he obviously doesn't know or
doesn't care about the rules.

> You strike me as a kindred spirit - a real died in the wool By-The-Book
> gamer. IMHO suggesting that Mr. Dowd doesn't know the rules is not likely to
> advance your argument. Terry

Thank you very much. I wish I were as great as you are, but noone is
as gifted, I guess. Of course you met me personally to be able to
make a judgement - I wish I could remember where that was. That Tom
Dowd didn't know much about how the magic rules work until November
1994 at least is sure - or why did he write these things in Burning
Bright ???

And by the way: The discussion was how the rules "by the book" have to
be understood. Noone ever denied that you can change them as much as
you like, but the question was "what are the 'by the book' rules ?",
so please think the next time before talking bad about people you
don't know.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 5
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:40:32 -0500
>Take a look at "Burning Bright", p.162-163. There Kyle Teller uses a
>far seeing spell in the astral plane to watch the drone that comes
>looking for the stuff that blocks the lens of the camera - this MIGHT
>work if you have altered the Clearvoyance spell to work correctly in
>the astral space and to look through walls. But THEN he does something
>that's absolutely violating 2 main rules of the astral space:
>
>A.) He is casting a spell using the Clearvoyance spell for LOS,
>because he doesn't have LOS while casting his "Magic Fingers" spell.
>
>B.) He casts the "Magic Fingers" spell at a bag of paper - and NO, the
>bag didn't have foci on it, so there was NO WAY how he could have
>affected the bag in this way.

WRONG! *BUZZZZZZ!* But please accept this lovely parting gift!

The Magic Fingers spell CAN work through clairvoyance! The spell descrpition
itself says so! And, yes, Magic fingers, being a manipulation spell, can
affect physical objects AS LONG AS HE IS "PRESENT" in physical space, i.e., the
clairvoyance spell.

>This is absolutely impossible if you look at the "by the book" rules
>and would imbalance the game like nothing else, because you could A.)
>affect targets that don't even have an astral presence and B.) no
>longer need LOS for spells. THIS is why I think he doesn't know the
>rules. Unfortunately I never met him personally (not everyone can be
>as great as you are, thank you for telling us dumblings how great and
>wise you are), because I live in Germany - that makes it rather
>difficult to meet Tom Dowd personally.
>Don't get me wrong: I like his books, but he obviously doesn't know or
>doesn't care about the rules.

As someone in an earlier post stated, Mr. Dowd helped write the rules, so
he knows them. I think you're just reacting in an unprofessional manner
to something you didn't agree with without checking to see if it were
at least possible first.

>And by the way: The discussion was how the rules "by the book" have to
>be understood. Noone ever denied that you can change them as much as
>you like, but the question was "what are the 'by the book' rules ?",
>so please think the next time before talking bad about people you
>don't know.

Speak for yourself...

>Bye...
> Georg


/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
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Message no. 6
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:51:58 +0100
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:51:55 +0100 (MET)

> WRONG! *BUZZZZZZ!* But please accept this lovely parting gift!
> The Magic Fingers spell CAN work through clairvoyance! The spell descrpition
> itself says so! And, yes, Magic fingers, being a manipulation spell, can
> affect physical objects AS LONG AS HE IS "PRESENT" in physical space, i.e.,
the
> clairvoyance spell.

Maybe you should have learned how to READ before you learned how to
write... you MAY use Clearvoyance for "close-ups", but ONLY as long as
you got the USUAL LOS.
And even if you WERE right this wouldn't change the point that he was
casting the spell at a paper bag while astrally projecting.

> As someone in an earlier post stated, Mr. Dowd helped write the rules, so
> he knows them. I think you're just reacting in an unprofessional manner
> to something you didn't agree with without checking to see if it were
> at least possible first.

But he didn't follow them at all - and this is something you cannot
argue about. So A.) he doesn't care or B.) he doesn't know about them,
both doesn't qualify him as the "man to ask" on this subject.

> Speak for yourself...

I didn't start telling bead thing about anyone.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 7
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:44:56 -0500
>> WRONG! *BUZZZZZZ!* But please accept this lovely parting gift!
>> The Magic Fingers spell CAN work through clairvoyance! The spell descrpition
>> itself says so! And, yes, Magic fingers, being a manipulation spell, can
>> affect physical objects AS LONG AS HE IS "PRESENT" in physical space,
i.e.,
> the
>> clairvoyance spell.
>
>Maybe you should have learned how to READ before you learned how to
>write... you MAY use Clearvoyance for "close-ups", but ONLY as long as
>you got the USUAL LOS.
>And even if you WERE right this wouldn't change the point that he was
>casting the spell at a paper bag while astrally projecting.

From SRII, p. 157, Magic Fingers spell description:

"The fingers can reach any point the magician can see. The casting
magician _can use a clairvoyance spell or even remote-viewing technology_
to get a close-up of the scene, as long as the actual location is within view."

Which brings me to two questions: 1) What do you have against Tom anyway?
and 2) Why is there a problem with using clairvoyance/Magic Fingers in
this way? In an earlier letter, someone stated that the books don't
necessarily follow the rules to the letter, but in this case what happened
is, technically, perfectly legal within the rules for that particular
spell only!!!

>> As someone in an earlier post stated, Mr. Dowd helped write the rules, so
>> he knows them. I think you're just reacting in an unprofessional manner
>> to something you didn't agree with without checking to see if it were
>> at least possible first.
>
>But he didn't follow them at all - and this is something you cannot
>argue about. So A.) he doesn't care or B.) he doesn't know about them,
>both doesn't qualify him as the "man to ask" on this subject.

Why does one potential misread of the rules disqualify the man who helped
write the rules from being an authority of the rules he wrote?

>> Speak for yourself...
>
>I didn't start telling bead thing about anyone.

How can you not call this bad-mouthing the good Mr. Dowd? If he were reading
this list (and, for many reasons, I'm glad he isn't... don't think he could
stomach the ongoing munchkinism and rules-lawyering present on this list),
I think he'd be personally offended by such statements, Georg.

>Bye...
> Georg


/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 8
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:49:24 +0000
On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, John W. Carter wrote:

> From SRII, p. 157, Magic Fingers spell description:
>
> "The fingers can reach any point the magician can see. The casting
> magician _can use a clairvoyance spell or even remote-viewing technology_
> to get a close-up of the scene, as long as the actual location is within
^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> view."
^^^^
Yes the magician can use Clairvoyance to get a close-up <comma, pause for
breath> as long as the actual location is within view ie LOS.
IE the mage has to be in LOS, but when diffusing a bomb its okay to be
1km away as long as its LOS still, but to diffuse teh bomb with MAgic
Fingers he needs a close up of the scene -hence Clairvoyance or better
still remote viewing technology ie cameras etc.

> Which brings me to two questions: 1) What do you have against Tom anyway?
I don't believe he has anything against Tom.

> 2) Why is there a problem with using clairvoyance/Magic Fingers in
> this way?
Because it *may* set a precedent for mages to start casting spells from out
of LOS by using Clairvoyance spell (why bother then with the fibre optic
stuff from corp sec book)


> In an earlier letter, someone stated that the books don't
> necessarily follow the rules to the letter, but in this case what happened
> is, technically, perfectly legal within the rules for that particular
> spell only!!!
I don't think so -if its true then everyone has been missing the most
effective spell since shadowrunning began. I can just see it now, mages
using magic fingers to draw the sec guards gun and shoot him with it
while he is safely in his security booth and the mage is 200 metres down
the road out of sight!

> >> As someone in an earlier post stated, Mr. Dowd helped write the rules, so
> >> he knows them. I think you're just reacting in an unprofessional manner
> >> to something you didn't agree with without checking to see if it were
> >> at least possible first.
I think it is pretty obvious it is against the rules, if not for the
magic fingers thing then definitely for the targeting the paper bag. I
myself wouldn't have bothered to look it up.


> Why does one potential misread of the rules disqualify the man who helped
> write the rules from being an authority of the rules he wrote?
Agreed! Mind you it does make someone stop to think -'Well is Mr Dowd
correct?' instead of taken everything for granted. A questioning mind is
a healthy one I believe.

Oh well, I hope this isn't going to become a flame war -my asbestos suit
is being dry cleaned :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 9
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:50:20 -0700
[snip ferocious flaming battle of name calling]

This seems to have gotten a little nasty. I do have one minor point
to make though [placing his head on a chopping block] it isn't uncommon at
all, whether or not Tom is following the rules, for an author to take
liberties in the name of enhancing a story, hell I do it every time I GM.

How else did Dirk Montgomery survive several battles with insect
spirits?
Message no. 10
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:17:32 MET
>The Digital Mage:
>
>I don't think so -if its true then everyone has been missing the most
>effective spell since shadowrunning began. I can just see it now, mages
>using magic fingers to draw the sec guards gun and shoot him with it
>while he is safely in his security booth and the mage is 200 metres down
>the road out of sight!

You can do it but:
1) You have a +4 T.N. because you're sustaining 2 spells.
2) If there is some magic security, a mage in astral projection could be able
to track the link from your magic fingers spell to your corpse.
(there is a link between you and the area affected by your spell, which isn't
sufficient to ground but that is to find you and your team...).

-Cobra.
Message no. 11
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:19:00 +0100
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:18:56 +0100 (MET)

> Which brings me to two questions: 1) What do you have against Tom anyway?
> and 2) Why is there a problem with using clairvoyance/Magic Fingers in
> this way? In an earlier letter, someone stated that the books don't
> necessarily follow the rules to the letter, but in this case what happened
> is, technically, perfectly legal within the rules for that particular
> spell only!!!

As I said several times before I don't have ANYTHING against Tom Dowd
- he writes good books. All I said is that he isn't the man to ask
about this topic. All novels claim to play in the SRII-Universe and
for this Universe there exist special "physical laws" due to the
existance of magic. If you try to write novels for this special
universe you don't break the laws THAT blatantly if you know about
them (if YOU were writing a book about OUR Universe would you let
one man fly around without telling this fantasy or fiction ?) - this
makes it easy to think Tom Dowd didn't know about the rules or if he
knew about them he definitely didn't care about them and both doesn't
qualify him as the man to ask on this topic. This was all I said - and
I don't consider him a god or the pope so I dare to say that he makes
mistakes...

And 2.) There IS a problem with using Clearvoyance/Magic Fingers in
this way because he didn't have LOS to that bag of paper and this bag
of paper didn't have an astral presence. This violation of two crucial
rules at once was just too much. If you still don't understand it:
read the sourcebooks, I'm not going to say it a fourth time.

> Why does one potential misread of the rules disqualify the man who helped
> write the rules from being an authority of the rules he wrote?

We're not talking about one potential misread of the rules, we are
talking about violating about 50% of the most basic rules for Magic in
the SRII-Universe.

> How can you not call this bad-mouthing the good Mr. Dowd? If he were reading
> this list (and, for many reasons, I'm glad he isn't... don't think he could
> stomach the ongoing munchkinism and rules-lawyering present on this list),
> I think he'd be personally offended by such statements, Georg.

I did NEVER offend Tom Dowd personally, I just dared to say that he
made a HUGE mistake concerning Magic in his novels and I think noone
who CARED and KNEW about the rules would have done this. Maybe I'm a
heretic in your eyes, because I dared to say that Tom Dowd isn't
unfailable, but in my eyes he's just a human being.

And I am definitely NOT trying to help munchkinsm - I'm trying to STOP
it. If you COULD ground through sustained/quickened spells this would
make Shadowrun a munchkin-AD&D-like Zap'n'kill game - this was why I
tried to make clear that this is nonsense by the only means I had: A.)
"common sense"/"makes sense thoughts" and B.) quoting rules in the
sourcebooks (yes - I dared to use the "forbidden" word: rules !). By
the way: I don't see why it should be forbidden to talk about the
rules - this doesn't make anyone a "rule lawyer and bad roleplayer" -
I said SEVERAL times that everyone may play the game as he likes, but
it should be possible to discuss a ruleset without pointing the finger
at someone, yelling "Munchkin" or "Rules Lawyer" - this is just plain
dumb and I didn't accept it when some people started doing that to
me. I never liked being blamed for no reason and I don't see why I
should accept that.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 12
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:12:43 GMT
>The Magic Fingers spell CAN work through clairvoyance! The spell descrpition
>itself says so! And, yes, Magic fingers, being a manipulation spell, can
>affect physical objects AS LONG AS HE IS "PRESENT" in physical space, i.e.,
the
>clairvoyance spell.

Not exactly.

The caster MUST have LOS on the area he's working in. Clairvoyance or
remote viewing by TV or whatever just supplies the close-up view to let
him do detailed work. Without that LOS you can't work.

Otherwise, you could cast any spell through clairvoyance by a simple
extension of logic, and the game degenerates into silliness at an
extremely high speed.

"The casting magician can use a clairvoyance spell or even remote
viewing technology to get a close-up of the scene, as long as the
actual location is within his view". Magic Fingers spell description,
page 157, SRII.

> As someone in an earlier post stated, Mr. Dowd helped write the rules, so
> he knows them. I think you're just reacting in an unprofessional manner
> to something you didn't agree with without checking to see if it were
> at least possible first.

Mr Dowd might be a senior part of FASA's creative team, but that (a) doesn't
make him infallible and (b) doesn't mean his interpretation of an ambiguity is
inherently better than mine or my group's. In fact, ours *is* better - for
us at least - as far as we're concerned.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 13
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:54:37 -0400
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> As I said several times before I don't have ANYTHING against Tom Dowd
> - he writes good books. All I said is that he isn't the man to ask
> about this topic.

Who is, then?

> existance of magic. If you try to write novels for this special
> universe you don't break the laws THAT blatantly if you know about
> them

You do if you want to make the book more interesting. The novels
are NOT 'official'.

> made a HUGE mistake concerning Magic in his novels and I think noone
> who CARED and KNEW about the rules would have done this.

In your opinion. However, the novels are not canon. There's a thing
called artistic license.

> And I am definitely NOT trying to help munchkinsm - I'm trying to STOP
> it. If you COULD ground through sustained/quickened spells this would
> make Shadowrun a munchkin-AD&D-like Zap'n'kill game

If you CAN'T ground thourgh quickenings, then you're going to end up
with a bunch of invulnerable magicians walking around.

--Craig
Message no. 14
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:10:30 -0500
>If you CAN'T ground thourgh quickenings, then you're going to end up
>with a bunch of invulnerable magicians walking around.
>
>--Craig

What the heck? One more for old times' sake:

What about dispelling? Or attacking the spell from Astral Space?

Nobody is invulnerable.

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 15
From: CM Santoni <st92hu4n@*****.OCS.DREXEL.EDU>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 21:39:16 -0400
Our friends at FASA are far from infallible. If the were I
woulden't have to spend the batter part of gaming sessions debating
rules. Most of the rules are ambiguous, and the rewrites in the newer
books are not much better. For instance, under the critter power of
confusion as it is written in SRII and PANM Critters with this power can
affect vcictims "in the terrain it controlls". All I wanted to do was to
get the Hearth Spirit to confuse 4 guys in the next room. This led to a
2 hour debate where the game master took extreme examples of the case.
The GM argued that a Sea Spirit could then confuse everyone in that sea.
This is of course rediculous, but both sides have a valad point if you
realy want to pull the rules on me.
We run into about 6 such problems each gaming session. It has
gotten to the point where we have to write them down and discuss them
later, just to keep the game going. Whoever playtested these rules did
not take into account their eventual use in many situations.
Georg therefore has every right to question the obvious
contridiction in rules. Even those written by the all being master of
time space and dimentions. After all we are all only human.
-CARLO
Message no. 16
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:49:15 +0100
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:49:12 +0100 (MET)

> If you CAN'T ground thourgh quickenings, then you're going to end up
> with a bunch of invulnerable magicians walking around.

Really ? Why ? Give me an example, please.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 17
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 14:19:10 +0000
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Craig S Dohmen wrote:

> You do if you want to make the book more interesting. The novels
> are NOT 'official'.
I agree that a writer should be allowed artistic licence, and be able to
bend the rules, but I don't like it when they totally break them. The
reason for this is simple -if teh character is in a situation where
things look desperate and I can't figure out how the hell he/she is going
to get out of it "Oh, if only he could cast a spell using clairvoyance",
"If only he could just cast a spell at him, be he can't because he's
astral and teh target isn't".

These sort of thoughts run through my head as I desperately try to come
up with a way that teh character survives. If the character then does
something which in teh game world is blatently impossible, i feel
cheated. Having hoped for the author to surprise me with an ingenious
escape I find none.

This is not to say breaking the rules -even in game- is always bad,
however I believe authors of RPG novels should be a little more careful.
The readers know a LOT more about the world in which the story is set
than readers of say a purely fictional piece, or sci-fi book.


> If you CAN'T ground thourgh quickenings, then you're going to end up
> with a bunch of invulnerable magicians walking around.

NOt necessarily -the BIG drawback which offsets the benefit of not being
able to ground is that the thing cannot be turned off -no quickenings of
Barrier spells, invisibility spells, levitate person spells, mask spells
etc. And anyway, remember that the mage has to get to be an initiate
first of all. And as always, anything the players can do so can NPCs :)


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 18
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:52:33 -0700
Gurth wrote:
> DLOH stands for Dark Lord On High, and was used to refer to Tom Dowd when
> he was still SR line developer; I think Doctor Doom came up with it, but
> that was before my time. I haven't really seen Mike Mulvihill refered to
> as DLOH, though.
>

I know the personalities have change..However, I liken the Dark Throne unto
those of he days of yor..He who holds the throne holds the title and thus I
refered to Mike Mulvihill as the DLoH..Since, he holds the throne and weilds
the powers of that office..
I believe also that you are correct in saying Doc Doom came up with the
title..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 19
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: DLOH
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:17:39 +1000
> Can someone give me Mike Mulvihill's addy?
>
> Doc'
>
> .sig Sauer
Message no. 20
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: DLoH
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:13:38 EST
Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> wrote:
>Actually, since you brought it up, the single person who left the

>strongest impression on me was/is Steve Kenson. I would love to see how

>the game would be different with him as DLoH.

You almost did. Back when Tom left as SR Developer, I was one of the people
who got interviewed for the job. FASA decided to hire Carl Sargent
(completely understandable, considering his greater SR experience). When that
didn't work out, I wasn't really in the position to move to Chicago, so I
took myself out of the running before FASA promoted Mike to SR Developer.

Although our visions of the game are not identical (whose are?) I think Mike
has done an excellent job revitalizing Shadowrun from the "interregnum" when
Carl was developer and the line was basically a rudderless ship.

(and MAN am I glad some of the stuff Carl wanted to do never happened. An
Immortals sourcebook? I mean, come on...)

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 21
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: DLoH
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:19:50 -0700
At 10:13 3/2/00 -0500, TalonMail@***.com wrote:

>(and MAN am I glad some of the stuff Carl wanted to do never happened. An
>Immortals sourcebook? I mean, come on...)

Off with his head!

(Choose whether you want this to be about the immortals or Carl.. ;-) )

Adam
Message no. 22
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: DLoH
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:29:18 -0500
From: <TalonMail@***.com>
> Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> wrote:
> >Actually, since you brought it up, the single person who left the
> >strongest impression on me was/is Steve Kenson. I would love to see
how
> >the game would be different with him as DLoH.
>
> You almost did. Back when Tom left as SR Developer, I was one of the
people
> who got interviewed for the job. FASA decided to hire Carl Sargent
> (completely understandable, considering his greater SR experience).
When that
> didn't work out, I wasn't really in the position to move to Chicago,
so I
> took myself out of the running before FASA promoted Mike to SR
Developer.
>
> Although our visions of the game are not identical (whose are?) I
think Mike
> has done an excellent job revitalizing Shadowrun from the
"interregnum" when
> Carl was developer and the line was basically a rudderless ship.

What books were published during that time? Does anyone recall? I
don't have the books with me, and I sure don't want to go through 40
sourcebooks' title pages. :)

> (and MAN am I glad some of the stuff Carl wanted to do never
happened. An
> Immortals sourcebook? I mean, come on...)

HEY! Some of us wouldn't have minded! :)

Carl's vision of SR was a little more...er...power heavy than my own.
But I wouldn't mind seeing more ED information, more Dragon
information. Still, I prefer low-level hints to, "And here's Lofwyr.
He's all-powerful. His top spell is Flame Bomb, and his shoe size is
42."

______________________________________________________________________
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries,
the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness,
with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more
consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God.
It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine : The Age of Reason
Message no. 23
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: DLoH
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:59:53 -0800
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:13:38 EST TalonMail@***.com writes:
<SNIP>
> (and MAN am I glad some of the stuff Carl wanted to do never
> happened. An
> Immortals sourcebook? I mean, come on...)

I don't know, an immortal sourcebook would have been nice ... maybe not
just immortals though ... perhaps if they were concentrated in some area,
you could disguise the book as a place book. Oh, but to do a really goo
job that way you'll probably need two books ... I know! You could bundle
it with information about other "threats" in the SR universe ... now all
you need is a title ...

:)

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 24
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: DLoH
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:11:31 -0800 (PST)
> You almost did. Back when Tom left as SR Developer,
I was one of the people who got interviewed for the
job. FASA decided to hire Carl Sargent (completely
understandable, considering his greater SR
experience). When that didn't work out, I wasn't
really in the position to move to Chicago, so I took
myself out of the running before FASA promoted Mike to
SR Developer.
>
> Although our visions of the game are not identical
(whose are?) I think Mike has done an excellent job
revitalizing Shadowrun from the "interregnum" when
Carl was developer and the line was basically a
rudderless ship.
>
> (and MAN am I glad some of the stuff Carl wanted to
do never happened. An Immortals sourcebook? I mean,
come on...)
> Steve Kenson

*shudder*

Stop scaring us, Steve.

Out of curiousity, what sourcebooks and novels were
published while Carl was line developer? (Beats the
hell out of me - I never even KNEW he'd gotten the
job.)

Incidentally, I was talking to Marc Gascoigne (Carl's
offsider and ex-Terrible Twin) late last year when I
submitted a short story idea to Inferno magazine
(Games Workshop product - can't remember exactly what
he's doing for them) and even HE bagged Carl when I
mentioned that I wasn't exactly a fan of their novels.
Then again, he could have been joking - to a degree at
least. :)

Then again, maybe that's why they didn't accept my
proposal. Must learn to be more tactful.

*Doc' snorts and laughs. "Yeah, right, like THAT'S
ever gonna happen!"

Doc' grrs at Doc'. "Big mouth."

"Jerk."

"Moron."

"Ah, bite me, doughboy."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
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Message no. 25
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: DLoH
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:52:28 -0600
AE asked:
:> Carl was developer and the line was basically a rudderless ship.
:
:What books were published during that time? Does anyone recall? I
:don't have the books with me, and I sure don't want to go through 40
:sourcebooks' title pages. :)

I think "Cybertechnolgy" is the only one that lists him as a developer
(as opposed to author). There's two "with help from" development credits in
Cybertechnology (Mike Mulvihil and Dian Piron-Gelman) so make of that what
you will....

:> (and MAN am I glad some of the stuff Carl wanted to do never
:happened. An
:> Immortals sourcebook? I mean, come on...)
:
:HEY! Some of us wouldn't have minded! :)

Some would, apperently. The howls of protest regarding the
"Earthdawnification" of Shadowrun voiced at that time still ring loud in my
ears. Hatred of Imortal Elves seemed to reach frenzied proportions at
times.


Mongoose

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about DLOH, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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Thwap!