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Message no. 1
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: DLOH redux
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:39:26 -0400
Georg Greve replied to my post by writing:

>> I've heard Tom Dowd do Q&A; his answers were thoughtful. Moreover, if you
>> think he would be intimidated by some jackass at a convention, I think
>> you've misjudged his character [I'm assuming that you've met the man and
>> made a personal judgement]. I've played with Mr. Dowd as the DM and watched
>> part of another game he was running. My judgement is that he knows the
>> rules; why do you believe he doesn't know the rules?
>
>Take a look at "Burning Bright", p.162-163. There Kyle Teller uses a
>far seeing spell in the astral plane to watch the drone that comes
>looking for the stuff that blocks the lens of the camera - this MIGHT
>work if you have altered the Clearvoyance spell to work correctly in
>the astral space and to look through walls. But THEN he does something
>that's absolutely violating 2 main rules of the astral space:
>
>
>A.) He is casting a spell using the Clearvoyance spell for LOS,
>because he doesn't have LOS while casting his "Magic Fingers" spell.
>
>B.) He casts the "Magic Fingers" spell at a bag of paper - and NO, the
>bag didn't have foci on it, so there was NO WAY how he could have
>affected the bag in this way.

He also sends an elemental off on a remote service even though 'the book'
says this can be done only at the time of summoning. I asked him about this
and a few other odds & ends during a Q&A. His response was simple - poetic
license for fiction. FASA likes for the authors to try to follow the rules
but they explicitly allow deviations if, in their judgement, it makes the
novel better fiction. This is why I am reluctant to cite novels (or modules)
for rules or rules clarifications.

>This is absolutely impossible if you look at the "by the book" rules
>and would imbalance the game like nothing else, because you could A.)
>affect targets that don't even have an astral presence and B.) no
>longer need LOS for spells. THIS is why I think he doesn't know the
>rules.

Now you know that FASA is willing to allow authors the right to create
'house rules' to further their fiction.

>Unfortunately I never met him personally (not everyone can be
>as great as you are, thank you for telling us dumblings how great and
>wise you are), because I live in Germany - that makes it rather
>difficult to meet Tom Dowd personally.

You forgot to insert the smiley. You really should remember to put them in,
otherwise you look like an petulant schmuck.

>Don't get me wrong: I like his books, but he obviously doesn't know or
>doesn't care about the rules.

When he's an author, increasing sales of the novel is more important than
by-the-book plotline and action.

>> You strike me as a kindred spirit - a real died in the wool By-The-Book
>> gamer. IMHO suggesting that Mr. Dowd doesn't know the rules is not likely to
>> advance your argument. Terry
>
>Thank you very much. I wish I were as great as you are, but noone is
>as gifted, I guess. Of course you met me personally to be able to
>make a judgement - I wish I could remember where that was.

You either forgot the smiley again or you ARE an petulant schmuck. I guess I
HAVE to assume you forgot the smiley.

>That Tom Dowd didn't know much about how the magic rules work until November
>1994 at least is sure - or why did he write these things in Burning
>Bright ???

I've relayed Mr. Dowd's reason. If you wish to assume that you know the
rules better than one of the game designers, it's your perogative. The rest
of of us can make our own judgement about your expertise compared to Tom Dowd's.

>And by the way: The discussion was how the rules "by the book" have to
>be understood. Noone ever denied that you can change them as much as
>you like, but the question was "what are the 'by the book' rules ?",

Yes. And one thing to consider in how the rules are to be understood is
'FASA allows authors to bend the rules'. Another is 'The creators of the
rules sometimes provide clarification'.

>so please think the next time before talking bad about people you
>don't know.

If you can show me an instance [in my original post] where I talked bad
about someone I will publically apologize to them on the list.

In my original post I wanted to point out that, IMO, trashing Tom Dowd's
knowledge of the game he helped create was not an effective means of winning
your arguments. Perhaps I'm wrong. If you like you can send email to those
listmembers with whom you are debating the rules and ask them "Who do think
has more expertise with shadowrun A. Georg Greve B. Tom Dowd". If the
results are strongly in your favor perhaps the list will appoint you the new
DLOH. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 2
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: DLOH redux
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:03:26 -0700
What does DLOH stand for?
Message no. 3
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: DLOH redux
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 09:24:53 EDT
Cuckoo Clock:
> Waht does DLOH stand for?

Dark Lord on High. It's a reference to Tom Dowd, the creator of Shadowrun.
I think it's in the Faq somewhere.

U-Gene << can never find the faq when he needs it >>
Message no. 4
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: DLOH redux
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:22:51 +0100
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:22:48 +0100 (MET)

> He also sends an elemental off on a remote service even though 'the book'
> says this can be done only at the time of summoning. I asked him about this
> and a few other odds & ends during a Q&A. His response was simple - poetic
> license for fiction. FASA likes for the authors to try to follow the rules
> but they explicitly allow deviations if, in their judgement, it makes the

I never said anything against that, but there is a difference between
altering some minor rules and totally ignoring basic rules. If anyone
wrote a book about the earth without considering gravity - would you
call this a book that shows how our world works ?

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 5
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: DLOH redux
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:55:18 -0400
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> altering some minor rules and totally ignoring basic rules. If anyone
> wrote a book about the earth without considering gravity - would you
> call this a book that shows how our world works ?

No, I'd call it a 'novel'.

--Craig
Message no. 6
From: Sgt Pepper <GRBENNET@*****.CIS.ECU.EDU>
Subject: Re: DLOH redux
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:10:54 EDT
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:22:51 +0100 Georg Greve said:
>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:22:48 +0100 (MET)
>
>> He also sends an elemental off on a remote service even though 'the book'
>> says this can be done only at the time of summoning. I asked him about this
>> and a few other odds & ends during a Q&A. His response was simple -
poetic
>> license for fiction. FASA likes for the authors to try to follow the rules
>> but they explicitly allow deviations if, in their judgement, it makes the
>
>I never said anything against that, but there is a difference between
>altering some minor rules and totally ignoring basic rules. If anyone
>wrote a book about the earth without considering gravity - would you
>call this a book that shows how our world works ?
>
>Bye...
> Georg

I have been tryingto stay out of this little melee, but I just must respond
to this.
No one has tried to use the novels as proof of anything in this arguement
except you Goerg, and you used it as evidence that Tom Dowd doesn't know or
doesnt follow the rules in ShadowRun. But DOLH himself said that authors
(including himself) have poetic license when writing these novel. "Fiction
before fact" so to speak. But just because he used something that isnt
possible "by the book" in one of his novels certainly doesnt discount his
statements about interpretation of the rules.
No one on either side of the auguement has suggested that because Tom Dowd
wrote this in one of his novels, it is that way. What was suggested was that
the question before us had been asked of Mr Dowd and he ruled this way. As
far as I'm concerned, that makes it by the book, since he is one of the
co-designers of the game, and the person at FASA to whom all question get
(or used to get) referred to. You were the one who brought the novels into
the discussion by saying that Tom Dowd did something in one of his books that
wasnt allowed, so he shouldnt be refered to as an expert on ShadowRun. The
point is he freely admits that occasionaly some things are done in the novels
that arent allowed in the rules, so the novels shouldnt be used as a
sourcebook, or as evidence of the author's ignorance of the rules.

Sgt. Pepper

"I MAY BE SANE BUT I'M CRAZIER THAN YOU" O O
NOSTALGIA ISN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE. ^
COMMON SENSE REALLY AIN'T ALL THE COMMON. \_____/
SOMEONE WHO THINKS LOGICALLY IS A NICE
CONTRAST TO THE REAL WORLD.
THERE IS ALWAYS ONE MORE IMBECILE THAN YOU COUNTED ON.
IF YOU CAN SMILE WHEN THINGS GO WRONG, YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN
MIND TO BLAME.

GeekCodev3.0

GM/ED d- s+: g+ a26 c++ u- P? L E? W !N K- w+ M-- V+ PS+ PE Y+ PGP-
t+ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b+(++) DI d G e++(+++) h+ r++(+++) y+
Message no. 7
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: DLOH redux
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 18:18:18 +0100
Sgt. Pepper wrote:
[poetic license stated, and I agree]
[snip]
> As
> far as I'm concerned, that makes it by the book, since he is one of the
> co-designers of the game, and the person at FASA to whom all question get
> (or used to get) referred to.
Great, but how are _we_ over here in Germany supposed to get these enlightening
insights? We just can't get to GenCon, there is no report that lists these
questions&Answers...
And I Even don't know how muh time TD has to answer these questions. If he
answers directly, there might be errors, not everything may be thought over...
if he has time to look it up, then I'd take it as right.

> You were the one who brought the novels into
> the discussion by saying that Tom Dowd did something in one of his books that
> wasnt allowed, so he shouldnt be refered to as an expert on ShadowRun. The
> point is he freely admits that occasionaly some things are done in the novels
> that arent allowed in the rules, so the novels shouldnt be used as a
> sourcebook, or as evidence of the author's ignorance of the rules.
How is one supposed to know that?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 8
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: DLOH redux
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:30:58 +0100
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:30:54 +0100 (MET)

> No one has tried to use the novels as proof of anything in this arguement
> except you Goerg, and you used it as evidence that Tom Dowd doesn't know or
> doesnt follow the rules in ShadowRun. But DOLH himself said that authors
> (including himself) have poetic license when writing these novel. "Fiction
> before fact" so to speak. But just because he used something that isnt
Yeah - but all these novels are SUPPOSED to take place in the same
universe, the Shadowrun-Universe, that's why they are called Shadowrun
novels. If you change the "physical" laws dramatically from novel to
novel you are creating a lot of confusion for the readers, because
you destroy the consistency of the Universe that way. Just imagine
that in your favorite series of novels they turn off the gravity for
one book (while claiming this is usual) - what would you think about
this ?
I think poetic license is a nice concept - UP TO A CERTAIN POINT. You
don't change the way the world is THAT much only for poetic license.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 9
From: "Sgt. Pepper" <GRBENNET@*****.CIS.ECU.EDU>
Subject: Re: DLOH redux
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 13:26:30 EDT
On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:30:58 +0100 Georg Greve said:
>
>> No one has tried to use the novels as proof of anything in this arguement
>> except you Goerg, and you used it as evidence that Tom Dowd doesn't know or
>> doesnt follow the rules in ShadowRun. But DOLH himself said that authors
>> (including himself) have poetic license when writing these novel. "Fiction
>> before fact" so to speak. But just because he used something that isnt
>Yeah - but all these novels are SUPPOSED to take place in the same
>universe, the Shadowrun-Universe, that's why they are called Shadowrun
>novels. If you change the "physical" laws dramatically from novel to
>novel you are creating a lot of confusion for the readers, because

not if it is excepted that the novels arent meant to give rules, everything
in the novels must be taken with a grain of salt. Again, no one has said
that the novels arent meant to be examples of the rules. People right novels
that are supposed to take place in our current universe and do things that are
current physically impossible, but no one takes them as a textbook on how our
world works. I'm just saying that the novels should have absolutely nothing to
with a discussion of rules, and rather someone knows the rules or not.
>you destroy the consistency of the Universe that way. Just imagine
>that in your favorite series of novels they turn off the gravity for
>one book (while claiming this is usual) - what would you think about
>this ?
I would think it was a nice plot twist, and wish that i too had a levitation
spell, or a gravitational counteraction device, or whatever it might be called.
>don't change the way the world is THAT much only for poetic license.
>
>Bye...
> Georg

"I MAY BE SANE BUT I'M CRAZIER THAN YOU" O O
NOSTALGIA ISN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE. ^
COMMON SENSE REALLY AIN'T ALL THE COMMON. \_____/
SOMEONE WHO THINKS LOGICALLY IS A NICE
CONTRAST TO THE REAL WORLD.
THERE IS ALWAYS ONE MORE IMBECILE THAN YOU COUNTED ON.
IF YOU CAN SMILE WHEN THINGS GO WRONG, YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN
MIND TO BLAME.

GeekCodev3.0

GM/ED d- s+: g+ a26 c++ u- P? L E? W !N K- w+ M-- V+ PS+ PE Y+ PGP-
t+ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b+(++) DI d G e++(+++) h+ r++(+++) y+

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about DLOH redux, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.