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Message no. 1
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: DMZ
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 12:22:06 +0000
Hey everybody.

Is DMZ worth getting? And is there likely to be a 2nd ed?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

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f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 2
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: DMZ
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 02:24:36 -0500
>Hey everybody.

>Is DMZ worth getting? And is there likely to be a 2nd ed?


IMHO, NO!!! On both accounts. Opponants to the game may call Shadowrun too
complicated and rulesy, but DMZ is way over simplified.

Matt
Message no. 3
From: "Bill P. Flint" <claymore@******.DIGEX.NET>
Subject: Re: DMZ
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 03:28:12 -0400
DMZ is also very deadly. Maybe even more deadlier that 2nd edition shadowrun.

--Claymore
Message no. 4
From: jan christian albiez <un22@**.UNI-KARLSRUHE.DE>
Subject: Re: DMZ
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 09:46:04 MESZ
>
> DMZ is also very deadly. Maybe even more deadlier that 2nd edition shadowrun
>
> --Claymore
>

Copy on that ! Very simple, very dead, makes no fun at all.

Jan


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jan Christian Albiez | un22@**.uni-karlsruhe.de | "Alles was schiefgehen
Eisenlohrstr. 26 | S_Albiez@*****.ira.uka.de | kann, geht irgendwann
76135 Karlsruhe | | auch schief" (Murphy)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DMZ
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 19:43:34 +0100
It's the only Shadowrun product that I've regretted buying.
My tuppence (?)

Micah Levy
Message no. 6
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: DMZ
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 11:08:46 -0700
I like it.
*Quite* deadly.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 7
From: Adam <adam@***.cosmos.ab.ca>
Subject: DMZ
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:30:47 -0700
I can buy DMZ used for 24 bucks canadian. I have the module elven
fire, and it reccomends i use it..So, what do you think? Is it worth it, or
will it turn my players into more gun hungry monsters? (god no!!!) The
cutouts aren't even cutout, and all the maps are there, so its complete and
all.
Also, what about Sprawl Maps? looks like it just has maps like in
Sprawl sites, but bigger. Any ideas?

Later chummers

---------------------------------------------------\
\Adam@******.ab.ca http://www.cosmos.ab.ca/~adam \
\IRC: Fro Chanop on #shadowrun, #ad&d and #www \
----------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: DMZ
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:01:34 +0100
Adam said on 22 Feb 96...

> I can buy DMZ used for 24 bucks canadian. I have the module elven
> fire, and it reccomends i use it..So, what do you think? Is it worth it, or
> will it turn my players into more gun hungry monsters? (god no!!!) The
> cutouts aren't even cutout, and all the maps are there, so its complete and
> all.

DMZ is a squad-level wargame, it has not much to do with SR. It contains
rules to convert your SR characters to DMZ format, but nothing for
changing things like wounds taken back to SR.
If you like to play an SR-style wargame, you could buy it although the
rules are a bit awkward in some areas. If you the BattleTech game
BattleTroops, you know a lot about DMZ since it was based on BTroops, but
on the whole I like BTroops better than DMZ.

Elven Fire (and A Killing Glare) works well enough without DMZ, simply by
not rolling for the NPCs except those shot at by the players, or those who
shoot at the players.

> Also, what about Sprawl Maps? looks like it just has maps like in
> Sprawl sites, but bigger. Any ideas?

Sprawl Maps are only useful for DMZ, IMHO. And for the price asked for
them, I'd say "leave them unless you have too much cash."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And I don't know why.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 9
From: MikeE@******.dragonsys.com
Subject: DMZ -Reply
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:13:36 -0500
IMHO, DMZ in mint condition is worth about $2
US. No I didn't leave off a zero.

I was very disapointed by it. While perhaps you
could do large SR battles SLIGHTLY faster with it
than with regular SR rules, the system is
cumbersome and not easy to learn. If you are
going to play a wargame with a learning/startup
time of several hours, why play one that is some
sort of ShadowRun Light? I think you'd spend
much more time teaching your players DMZ than
you would ever save, by an order of magnitude.

DMZ was the product that cured me of the "buy
everything with the word ShadowRun on it"
disease.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 10
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: DMZ
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 07:55:40 -0600
>
> I can buy DMZ used for 24 bucks canadian. I have the module elven
>fire, and it reccomends i use it..So, what do you think? Is it worth it, or
>will it turn my players into more gun hungry monsters?
I don't know what dmz will do to your players, but you don't need it to run
Elven Fire. I did without with no problems.

>Also, what about Sprawl Maps?
I've found sprawl maps to be useful. Much better drawing a picture and
saying "The warehouse looks something like this."

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 11
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@******.stevens-tech.edu>
Subject: Re: DMZ
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 23:35:06 -0500 (EST)
> IMHO, DMZ in mint condition is worth about $2
> US. No I didn't leave off a zero.
>
> I was very disapointed by it. While perhaps you
> could do large SR battles SLIGHTLY faster with it
> than with regular SR rules, the system is
> cumbersome and not easy to learn. If you are
> going to play a wargame with a learning/startup
> time of several hours, why play one that is some
> sort of ShadowRun Light? I think you'd spend
> much more time teaching your players DMZ than
> you would ever save, by an order of magnitude.
>
> DMZ was the product that cured me of the "buy
> everything with the word ShadowRun on it"
> disease.
>
> Double-Domed Mike

Hmmm. I own DMZ, and I have played it. Perhaps it's not worth the $18
(?) list price (don't remember how much I paid, was a REALLY long time
ago) but it is OK. The background stuff in there is good to give to a
newbie, it's a great source of quotes, and I have been trying to bash
together a set of rules for SRII combat using the DMZ rules for movement
and intitative, and the SRII rules for skills and damage. Oh, well
Message no. 12
From: Grifter13 sids@*********.ca
Subject: DMZ
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:24:24 -0800
I'm thinking of trying to get a copy of Shadowrun DMZ but I thought I should
ask if its any good before I went to the expense of trying to track one
down. All I've found so far is one Box set of 8 metal figures (really bad
quality by the way) and two reg packs of figures. Plus I was wondering if
FASA might re-release DMZ as I believe the just acquired Ral Partha Ent.
Any ways I was wondering if it would be worth getting, that is if I can ever
find it.

Grifter13

Insert witty sig. line here, but please no ASCII art.
Message no. 13
From: Lehlan Decker DeckerL@******.com
Subject: DMZ
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:29:56 -0500
<SNIP is the DMZ worth it)
Honestly, I don't think so. I bought it ages ago when it first came
out, and I think I've used it twice. It has some interesting stuff in it,
but nothing I would term special. (I haven't looked at it in a dogs
age, so others may feel different).
The cardboard cutouts weren't even that useful, and didn't stand
up to too much abuse. If you could get it for less then cover price I
would say sure why not, otherwise nope.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 14
From: Tony Glinka porthos@*******.com
Subject: DMZ
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:36:43 -0700
Lehlan Decker wrote:
>
> <SNIP is the DMZ worth it)
> Honestly, I don't think so. I bought it ages ago when it first came
> out, and I think I've used it twice. It has some interesting stuff in it,
> but nothing I would term special. (I haven't looked at it in a dogs
> age, so others may feel different).
> The cardboard cutouts weren't even that useful, and didn't stand
> up to too much abuse. If you could get it for less then cover price I
> would say sure why not, otherwise nope.


I would agree with Lehlan here. I got it at Gen Con last year for $5
and haven't really done anything with it since I got it. If I had to do
over again I would still cough up the $5 for it, but I don't know if I
would go much higher than that.

Just my two cents worth.

You all realize that when traffic picks up here, I'll have to go back
into lurker mode. :)

Tony
--
Porthos@*******.com -- GridSec: SRCard
Porthos' World of Shadowrun: http://www.inficad.com/~porthos/sr/
Tony's SRTCG Site: http://www.inficad.com/~porthos/srtcg/
Home of the SRTCG Q&A: SRCard's Official Unofficial SRTCG FAQ
Message no. 15
From: hivemind hivemind@********.rr.com
Subject: DMZ
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:54:53 -0600
From: Grifter13 <sids@*********.ca>


>I'm thinking of trying to get a copy of Shadowrun DMZ but I thought I
should
>ask if its any good before I went to the expense of trying to track one
>down. All I've found so far is one Box set of 8 metal figures (really bad
>quality by the way) and two reg packs of figures. Plus I was wondering if
>FASA might re-release DMZ as I believe the just acquired Ral Partha Ent.
>Any ways I was wondering if it would be worth getting, that is if I can
ever
>find it.

It's not a very good system [IMO], but the maps and such are pretty nice.
RP has a big line of SR figures available, and my local comic store has one
or two copies of the box for 1/2 cover [~$15US, IIRC]. E-mail me privately
if you'd like me to get you one.

hivemind@********.rr.com
Message no. 16
From: Legion legion@******.net.au
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:25:48 +1100
actually, a few years ago Challenger magazine did a write-up of a variation
on the DMZ rules, which were much more sensible and easy to use...

anybody wanna the gist of them?? if so reply privately

Hangfire

PS on 2nd thoughts, maybe you should reply to the list, and see if it
breaks. :)


>
>From: Grifter13 <sids@*********.ca>
>
>
>>I'm thinking of trying to get a copy of Shadowrun DMZ but I thought I
>should
>>ask if its any good before I went to the expense of trying to track one
>>down. All I've found so far is one Box set of 8 metal figures (really bad
>>quality by the way) and two reg packs of figures. Plus I was wondering if
>>FASA might re-release DMZ as I believe the just acquired Ral Partha Ent.
>>Any ways I was wondering if it would be worth getting, that is if I can
>ever
>>find it.
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:20:17 +0100
According to Tony Glinka, at 12:36 on 29 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> I would agree with Lehlan here. I got it at Gen Con last year for $5
> and haven't really done anything with it since I got it. If I had to do
> over again I would still cough up the $5 for it, but I don't know if I
> would go much higher than that.

I paid full price for it five or so years ago, but I wouldn't now -- I'd
never seen the game up close, so it was a bit of a gamble. It can be fun
to play every once in a while, but it's not enough fun to _keep_ playing.

BTW, I _would_ have bought another copy at GenCon if it wasn't for the
minor matter that I would have had to carry it with me for the following
three weeks :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:20:17 +0100
According to Grifter13, at 14:24 on 29 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> I'm thinking of trying to get a copy of Shadowrun DMZ but I thought I should
> ask if its any good before I went to the expense of trying to track one
> down.

If you want an SR-style wargame, published by FASA, it's what you'll have
to get as there is nothing else. The game itself isn't too bad, but there
are definitely better systems out there. If you've played BattleTroops
(from the BattleTech line), then you basically know how DMZ works --
except BattleTroops is easier to learn, faster to play, and more fun...

> All I've found so far is one Box set of 8 metal figures (really bad
> quality by the way)

Are these by Grenadier? They released at least two sets of figures which
included such things as a 1.5-meter dwarf (at least, going by the photos
I've seen). I'd love to get my hands on the figures themselves, but I
doubt I'll be able to find them anywhere :)

> and two reg packs of figures. Plus I was wondering if FASA might
> re-release DMZ as I believe the just acquired Ral Partha Ent. Any ways I
> was wondering if it would be worth getting, that is if I can ever find
> it.

DMZ never had metal figures. You can play it with Ral Partha's, of course,
but in the box were fold-over, cardboard counters to represent characters.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Grifter13 sids@*********.ca
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:15:41 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*****.html.com <shadowrn@*****.html.com>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 4:42 AM
Subject: Re: DMZ



If you want an SR-style wargame, published by FASA, it's what you'll have
to get as there is nothing else. The game itself isn't too bad, but there
are definitely better systems out there. If you've played BattleTroops
(from the BattleTech line), then you basically know how DMZ works --
except BattleTroops is easier to learn, faster to play, and more fun...


Actually I just use the figures when we get into combat. I just draw a
little map on a piece of white board and put the figures in the proper
places. It really helps with keeping track of cover, line of fire and
movement. Plus it actually speed up combat just a little.

> All I've found so far is one Box set of 8 metal figures (really bad
> quality by the way)

Are these by Grenadier? They released at least two sets of figures which
included such things as a 1.5-meter dwarf (at least, going by the photos
I've seen). I'd love to get my hands on the figures themselves, but I
doubt I'll be able to find them anywhere :)

Yup they were by Grenadier. Oh I just love the Ork's or Troll's (I don't
know exactly which they were supposed to be) with the body same size as a
humans but with a much larger head.

> and two reg packs of figures. Plus I was wondering if FASA might
> re-release DMZ as I believe the just acquired Ral Partha Ent. Any ways I
> was wondering if it would be worth getting, that is if I can ever find
> it.

DMZ never had metal figures. You can play it with Ral Partha's, of course,
but in the box were fold-over, cardboard counters to represent characters.

That's just cheap.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:00:27 -0700
At 10:15 1/30/99 -0800, Grifter13 wrote:

>DMZ never had metal figures. You can play it with Ral Partha's, of course,
>but in the box were fold-over, cardboard counters to represent characters.
>
>That's just cheap.

Grifter, as you can see here, whatever email client you're using doesn't
quote properly -- Gurths text should have been marked somehow (Preferably
with ">"), to note that it was quoted and not your own. As a result, I
couldn't tell what you wrote and what Gurth wrote, and people reading
-this- message probably can't, either.

So please dig in your mailer options and figure out how to do some form of
quoting, because once ShadowRN is fully over at lists.html.com, GridSec
will be kicking ass and taking names again.

:)

-Adam
--
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< "I know one thing, it's about damn time I got new entrance music.">
< -Mankind, 01/10/99 RAW is WAR. >
Message no. 21
From: hivemind hivemind@********.rr.com
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:01:36 -0600
From: Legion <legion@******.net.au>
To: shadowrn@*****.html.com <shadowrn@*****.html.com>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: DMZ


>actually, a few years ago Challenger magazine did a write-up of a variation
>on the DMZ rules, which were much more sensible and easy to use...
>
>anybody wanna the gist of them?? if so reply privately
>
>Hangfire
>
>PS on 2nd thoughts, maybe you should reply to the list, and see if it
>breaks. :)

I'd be interested in the gist, as well as the issue # of the magazine in
question.

hivemind
Message no. 22
From: Grahamdrew mnemonic25@*********.com
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:45:41 -0500
hivemind wrote:
<sniped some stuff>

What is DMZ anyway? I've heard of it but never really heard what it was
about. From what I've gathered, it sounds like AD&D's "Battlesystem"
stuff, but I'm not to sure.

Any help?
Message no. 23
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:19:56 -0700
At 15:45 1/30/99 -0500, Grahamdrew wrote:

>What is DMZ anyway? I've heard of it but never really heard what it was
>about. From what I've gathered, it sounds like AD&D's "Battlesystem"
>stuff, but I'm not to sure.

Downtown Militarized Zone.

Basically a board-combat set of rules for SR, that was grossly incompatible
with normal SR rules.

-Adam
--
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< "I know one thing, it's about damn time I got new entrance music.">
< -Mankind, 01/10/99 RAW is WAR. >
Message no. 24
From: Grifter13 sids@*********.ca
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:43:24 -0800
>Grifter, as you can see here, whatever email client you're using doesn't
>quote properly -- Gurths text should have been marked somehow (Preferably
>with ">"), to note that it was quoted and not your own. As a result, I
>couldn't tell what you wrote and what Gurth wrote, and people reading
>-this- message probably can't, either.
>
>So please dig in your mailer options and figure out how to do some form of
>quoting, because once ShadowRN is fully over at lists.html.com, GridSec
>will be kicking ass and taking names again.
>
>:)
>
>-Adam


The quote problem was a one shot deal, I didn't touch the settings or
anything, it just happened. As you can see this message is fine and the
other ten times I have tried it all worked fine.
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:52:29 +0100
According to Grifter13, at 10:15 on 30 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Actually I just use the figures when we get into combat. I just draw a
> little map on a piece of white board and put the figures in the proper
> places. It really helps with keeping track of cover, line of fire and
> movement. Plus it actually speed up combat just a little.

I sometimes did that, when I had figures at hand. However, these days my
group usually plays at someone else's house and my figures are in my room
at home, so this isn't really possible for me. Descriptions and maps with
symbols will have to suffice for me.

> Yup they were by Grenadier. Oh I just love the Ork's or Troll's (I don't
> know exactly which they were supposed to be) with the body same size as a
> humans but with a much larger head.

Yeah, that's another thing I noticed in the photos in the back of my
Seattle Sourcebook. The figures just don't seem to be very good, really...

> > DMZ never had metal figures. You can play it with Ral Partha's, of course,
> > but in the box were fold-over, cardboard counters to represent characters.
>
> That's just cheap.

Well, DMZ already cost US$30 when new (you can tell by the "53000" number
in the upper right-hand corner of the barcode) -- imagine what adding a
handful of metal figures would have done to that cost.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:52:29 +0100
According to Grahamdrew, at 15:45 on 30 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> What is DMZ anyway? I've heard of it but never really heard what it was
> about. From what I've gathered, it sounds like AD&D's "Battlesystem"
> stuff, but I'm not to sure.

It's a small-unit wargame where individual characters (shadowrunners,
cops, gangers, etc.) fight it out with each other. It uses maps overlaid
with a dot pattern (imagine a hex map; now place a dot at each corner of
every hex, and then remove the lines) for movement and combat, and a
pretty worthless to-hit system, which works as follows: for any test, you
find your Success Value and subtract the other character's Defense Value
from it; then roll that number or less on 2D6. This works well enough in
theory, but in practice you get things like characters with Success Values
of 25 shooting people who have Defense Values of 10. Oh wow, 15 or less on
2D6, I wonder if I'll miss... (Okay, a 12 is an automatic miss, but
still...)

Another problem is that it's not consistent with the normal SR rules, in
that certain things that work well in SR don't work in DMZ, and vice-
versa.

The idea was that it's faster than using SR's system for big combats, but
it didn't quite succeed in that. To be honest it _is_ faster than SR
combat, once you're used to the system, but not by much because you still
have to look up all kinds of values on different character sheets and in
books before you can roll the dice.

It's best to play it as a stand-alone game rather than attempting to
integrate it into a normal SR game -- mostly because even though it has
rules for converting an SR character into a DMZ one, there are none for
doing the reverse... Which means that if your SR character gets shot up in
DMZ, you can only guess at how seriously his or her wounds are in SR1/2/3
terms :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: chimerae@***.ie chimerae@***.ie
Subject: DMZ
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:28:04 +0000
and thus did Gurth speak on 30 Jan 99 at 13:20:

> Are these by Grenadier? They released at least two sets of figures
> which included such things as a 1.5-meter dwarf (at least, going by
> the photos I've seen). I'd love to get my hands on the figures
> themselves, but I doubt I'll be able to find them anywhere :)

I know that Compendium (or whatever name they have now) in Utrecht
used to have them for ages and couldn't get rid of them. From what
I've seen on the inside no suprise... so that's why I didn't buy
them. But then again I haven't been there the last two years. Who
published those dragon sets for SR, was that also Grenadier? I
remember those being of a somewhat better quality.

> DMZ never had metal figures. You can play it with Ral Partha's, of
> course, but in the box were fold-over, cardboard counters to
> represent characters.

Were those the same as came with *tries to remember* GM Screen 2nd
ed? The dragon was about the size of a cow IIRC and I couldn't get
them to stand up very well after a few times transporting them.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 28
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: DMZ
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:24:56 +0100
According to chimerae@***.ie, at 19:28 on 31 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> I know that Compendium (or whatever name they have now) in Utrecht
> used to have them for ages and couldn't get rid of them. From what
> I've seen on the inside no suprise... so that's why I didn't buy
> them. But then again I haven't been there the last two years.

Garmt apparently goes there from time to time; maybe I should ask him to
look for them... I wouldn't mind adding them to my collection even if they
are crap. Then again, two years is pretty a long time.

> Who published those dragon sets for SR, was that also Grenadier? I
> remember those being of a somewhat better quality.

Ral Partha used to have a Corporate Dragon (actually a dragon and a human
in a box) as well as a Feathered Serpent. Currently the only dragons they
do are Dunkelzahn and Lofwyr, both of which I own. They're pretty good,
although there are major differences between the two figures even if
they're both supposed to be western dragons.

Also, I remember seeing Lone Star figures a couple of years ago in
someone's collection; I think he told me they were Grenadier, but I'm not
sure. They certainly looked like SR figures, and they do not appear in the
add in my Seattle Sourcebook. (And no, they weren't Ral Partha's set.)

> > DMZ never had metal figures. You can play it with Ral Partha's, of
> > course, but in the box were fold-over, cardboard counters to
> > represent characters.
>
> Were those the same as came with *tries to remember* GM Screen 2nd
> ed? The dragon was about the size of a cow IIRC and I couldn't get
> them to stand up very well after a few times transporting them.

They were not the same; the DMZ screen figures had different (better) art,
although they're roughly the same size. You can recognize the GM screen
figures by the cut in the underside of the figures, while DMZ figures
don't; also, the DMZ ones have a number printed on the for
indentification.

As for the dragon, the DMZ ones were much bigger -- 4.7x11 cm for the one
I've just measured up.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Subject: DMZ
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:03:55 -0600
>Grifter, as you can see here, whatever email client you're using
doesn't
>quote properly -- Gurths text should have been marked somehow
(Preferably
>with ">"), to note that it was quoted and not your own. As a result,
I
>couldn't tell what you wrote and what Gurth wrote, and people reading
>-this- message probably can't, either.
>
>So please dig in your mailer options and figure out how to do some
form of
>quoting, because once ShadowRN is fully over at lists.html.com,
GridSec
>will be kicking ass and taking names again.


Just an observation, I also have trouble with replying to Gurth's
posts sometimes as well. I am using OE and it seems to quote others
ok, don't know where the problem occurs.

Tony Rabiola
rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
(still working on the Fifth)
Proud owner BABY #972
Message no. 30
From: Grifter13 sids@*********.ca
Subject: DMZ
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:57:33 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.netcom.com>
To: shadowrn@*****.html.com <shadowrn@*****.html.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: DMZ


>Just an observation, I also have trouble with replying to Gurth's
>posts sometimes as well. I am using OE and it seems to quote others
>ok, don't know where the problem occurs.
>
>Tony Rabiola

I just tried replying to messages from him. Not once did it quote them
properly and I tried it on five different messages. And I am using OE as
well.

Grifter13

Insert witty sig. line here, but please no ASCII art.
Message no. 31
From: XaOs [David Goth] xaos@*****.net
Subject: DMZ
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 02:40:28 -0600
> Just an observation, I also have trouble with replying to Gurth's
> posts sometimes as well. I am using OE and it seems to quote others
> ok, don't know where the problem occurs.

I'm quoting fine too with Outlook 98. (Although my last post was doubled
somehow).


-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 32
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: DMZ
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:58:59 +0100
According to Tony Rabiola, at 13:03 on 2 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Just an observation, I also have trouble with replying to Gurth's
> posts sometimes as well.

That explains the lack of quoting in those messages that I was wondering
about. (BTW, Tony, the package is in the mail.)

> I am using OE and it seems to quote others ok, don't know where the
> problem occurs.

According to something Robert Watkins pointed out to me once, when this
came up before, it has to do with (I believe) the following lines from my
message header:

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I've no idea what to do to fix it, however. Oh, and in case someone
suggests it, setting my mailer to 8-bit encoding makes it give the
following warning:

*** PLEASE READ THIS MESSAGE CAREFULLY! ***

8-bit data is formally illegal in Internet Mail and although many systems
permit it, you should be aware that its use can potentially cause
considerable problems for Internet sites using older mail systems and
gateways.

Pegasus Mail allows you to generate messages using the MIME 8-bit
encoding format (no other 8-bit encoding makes any sense for Internet
mail) but you do so at your own risk and responsibility. Pegasus Mail's
author expressly recommends that you do not use this option unless you
are very sure of what you are doing, and will neither accept
responsibility for the consequences of your using it, nor will provide
technical support for it.

Just thought I'd point it out beforehand :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If it's no use pretending, then I don't want to know.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: pixelonpicnic@*******.com (Niels Sønderborg)
Subject: DMZ ..
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:16:59 +0200
I forgot to ask ... Do anyone still use this game for anything? I use the
figures and maps for mass combat, so just wondering :)

_________________________________________________________________
Få alle de nye og sjove ikoner med MSN Messenger http://www.msn.dk/messenger
Message no. 34
From: satinner@*********.net (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: DMZ ..
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:10:03 -0700 (PDT)
--- Niels Sønderborg <pixelonpicnic@*******.com>
wrote:
> I forgot to ask ... Do anyone still use this game
> for anything? I use the
> figures and maps for mass combat, so just wondering
> :)

I use it all the time ... as an example of how bad a
game can be. ;-)
Message no. 35
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: DMZ ..
Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:27:53 -0700 (PDT)
--- Niels Sønderborg <pixelonpicnic@*******.com> wrote:
> I forgot to ask ... Do anyone still use this game for anything? I
> use the
> figures and maps for mass combat, so just wondering :)

Back in the early 90's, I spent a lot of time converting the game
into SR1 stats. We used it whenever I ran "Combat Nights". I have
not even taken it off the shelf in about five years. My current
table top group is displaying a woeful lack of tactical insight, and
"Combat Night" is going to make a comeback. This means that I will
be tackling the task of converting DMZ to SR3 combat rules. I
anticipate this taking at least a month, as I am busy with work and
school. When it is done, I will be happy to share. My DMZ/SR1
hybrid worked very well, landing somewhere between the two for
complexity and speed of play. Back then, we'd spend a half hour on
"char gen" (mostly tweaking equipment specs) and another half hour
setting up each scenario. On a given "Combat Night", we would
usually resolve 3-4 brief combats (10-20 Turns) or 2 longer combats
(40+ Turns). Short fights would take about 2 hours to finish, and
long fights would take about 4. Obviously, a lot combat Turns get
eaten up in moving around the map. Scenarios usually consisted of
CS-style missions. Protect the VP or Kill the VP, Guard the Item or
Steal the Item, Plant the Bomb or Stop the Bomb... you get the idea.
Sometimes the players would all work against my team of NPCs. Other
times they would split up, with some NPCs working for each team. For
really protracted battles, the players might even have squads they
controlled. These usually consisted of an "officer" and two or three
"gunts". Three or four players on a team created exciting platoon
vs. platoon action.

DMZ provided us three things. Maps, figures, and a good idea for
where the main rules could be simplified and abstracted for speed.
SR1 gave us greater depth and a wider base of skillsets, equipment,
and combat options. Using SR dice rules instead of DMZ dice rules
gave us a wider success-failure range, and a less arbitrary system
for resolving situations not clearly defined by the rules.

If you have players who repeatedly fail to grasp the idea of tactical
movement, cover, efficient use of Free/Simple/Complex Actions,
teamwork, communication, and suppressing/covering fire, I reccomend
running "Combat Nights" in one form or another. By strictly
enforcing the Action rules, you will make players really think about
how much they can actually do in a 3-second Turn. Any time a player
starts asking what conclusions their charater might draw from the
sensory data the GM describes, you have them roll a Knowledge skill,
and they just spent a Complex Action. Each word or gesture exchanged
in the combat is a Free Action. Use too many, and suddenly you can't
do other things, like drop prone or drop items. Usually, for at
least a few months following a combat night, combat in our SR
sessions would run much faster and more smoothly. Players seem to
pay more attention the first time you tell them things, and visualize
the scenario more accurately. They economize their activities a lot
more. When a player must decide between attacking and strategizing,
they tend to reach conclusions a lot quicker. My favorite "Combat
Night" rule: anytime someone starts discussing tactics with other
players during the heat of battle, everyone involved loses an Action
Phase. Why? Because Use Skill is a Complex Action, and Small Unit
Tactics is a skill. Even better: are your comms encrypted? No? The
enemy probably knows what you just said. Even if they are, the other
team might have decryption, so their communications expert may be
listening in. Cuts way down on the chit chat. Players tend to spend
their time listening to everyone, and having their action ready when
they are called on.

======Korishinzo
--Evil GMing is about teaching, not punishing... well, okay, but it
is about teaching too ;>




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Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about DMZ, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!