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Message no. 1
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:48:02 -0005
On 4 Jan 97 at 12:28, Gurth wrote:

> DMZ has overly complicated rules that slow down play tremendously <snip>
>
> Furthermore, DMZ lacks rules for all vehicles except motorcycles, but
> naturally it does have magic rules, which BT obviously lacks :)
>
> DMZ is out of print, if I'm correct (it's not in the 1996 FASA catalog),
> IMHO probably in part because most people find it the worst addition to
> the SR line. I bought it, I've played it sometimes, and it's actually
> kind of fun, but it's not a great game. If you're thinking of buying it
> to make combat between large groups in SR speed up, go get two
> sourcebooks for your cash instead...

I was thinking about DMZ the other day... I can't argue with Gurth's
statements. They are in my experience true. DMZ was a good idea... just not
thought out very well. What I was thinking... would anyone agree that a DMZ 2
might not be a bad idea? Say a new set of rules, more streamlined for quick
play, quick and simple vehicle rules (dunno... maybe something Car Warsish?)
and a set of maps and rules done with miniatures in mind. FASA has a good set
of miniatures created by Ral Partha... but most games don't make much use of
them because there are no miniatures rules in SR (at least... no good rules).
This hasn't stopped me personally... I've played with miniatures for years and
setting up my own was fairly easy. But for those who are experienced
miniaturist... much less tournament games... a good set of rules could be
helpful.

Whadya think chummers? Good idea or bad idea.
--
Ashelock
(woneal@*******.net)

"When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world,
after the Silence of the centuries,
let him not find me lacking in merit."
Message no. 2
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:00 -0700
> From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
...... What I was thinking... would anyone agree that a DMZ 2
> might not be a bad idea? Say a new set of rules, more streamlined for quick
> play, quick and simple vehicle rules (dunno... maybe something Car Warsish?)
> and a set of maps and rules done with miniatures in mind. FASA has a good set
> of miniatures created by Ral Partha......

Well...Get to work...Visit the FASA home site for submission
guidelines and hammer it out....
Actually..If it were something small and inexpensive..This might make
all those DMZ sets out there worth having..And yes..I have one..I've
never even tried to play it..But I have it..
If it were perhaps meant only for mail order...And as an
expansion..Not a replacement for the original...Then it might
work..But that is what was tried with sprawl maps..And unless I miss
my guess that was a flop...
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 3
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:31:30 +0000
> From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
> Subject: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)

> I was thinking about DMZ the other day... I can't argue with Gurth's
> statements. They are in my experience true. DMZ was a good idea... just not
> thought out very well. What I was thinking... would anyone agree that a DMZ 2
> might not be a bad idea? Say a new set of rules, more streamlined for quick
> play, quick and simple vehicle rules (dunno... maybe something Car Warsish?)

I'm working on something, but until I can test it out, I'd rather not
post it. I will say that everything is based on a 10sided die,
though. (too many dice the SR method)

Any comments, flames, questions? Just E-mail me.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 4
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 02:20:38 -0500
At 12:31 AM 1/21/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
>> Subject: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)
>
>> I was thinking about DMZ the other day... I can't argue with
Gurth's
>> statements. They are in my experience true. DMZ was a good idea...
just not
>> thought out very well. What I was thinking... would anyone agree that a
DMZ 2
>> might not be a bad idea? Say a new set of rules, more streamlined for
quick
>> play, quick and simple vehicle rules (dunno... maybe something Car
Warsish?)
>
>I'm working on something, but until I can test it out, I'd rather not
>post it. I will say that everything is based on a 10sided die,
>though. (too many dice the SR method)
>
>Any comments, flames, questions? Just E-mail me.
>
I'd say leave the 6 siders in...

Keep the system similar as possible to the SR RPG... If it's too much
different, that becomes a turn off to hard core SR players... Who wants to
learn a totally diffrent system for the same world... But you can simplify
some of the numbers and tone the amount of dice down...

West End Games did something similar for Star Wars. They have a Miniatures
Battle Game that is, IMO, very well done... I still prefer Warhammer, but
they did a good job of making teh Mini's game compatible with the RPG...
In fact it's a piece of cake translating PC's into characters...

I'm not familiar with DMZ (I just heard it wasn't very good, repeatedly),
so I can't really off suggestions on how to clean the old system up, but if
you can keep it simple and streamlined, and come uup with a way to easily
translate characters for the game, and make it run like a quicker bersion
of the RPG, I think you'ld have a good game on your hands... And it would
make those mass combats MUCH easier to deal with...

Just my 2 Nuyen, and what I'd prefer to see...

Bull
--
Bull-the-cuddley-Kojack-imitating-Star-Wars-lovin'-ork-decker

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

Less than 2 weeks till Star Wars!
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:14:23 +0100
GRANITE said on 15:58/20 Jan 97...

> Not a replacement for the original...Then it might work..But that is
> what was tried with sprawl maps..And unless I miss my guess that was a
> flop...

IMHO there are a number of reasons why SM (hmm, not really a good choice
of abbreviation, still it beats a certain ED adventure... :) wasn't that
much of a success. (That is, I'm guessing along with Granite -- perhaps it
did better than we think?)

You need people who like DMZ enough to spend more money on it, and IMHO
that is not all _that_ likely -- the game is okay, but I've seen better
attempts at skirmish-level wargames.
Then there's the price of the maps... My regular supplier sells them for
9.95 UK pounds, the same as a sourcebook like the RBB or Grimoire. I
understand that full-color printing is expensive, but this ties in with
the first reason: if I'd found DMZ a great game and played it often, I
would have bought the maps too; as it is now, I don't really play DMZ so I
have no need for the maps...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I wonder why anyone would want to name their kid after an airport...?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:05:19 -0700
> From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
> Any comments, flames, questions? Just E-mail me.

Kinda hard to comment on or flame ya with this small amount of
info..I don't see any probs with changing the dice..FASA already has
shown its willingness to do so with ED...
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 7
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:22:32 +0000
> From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
> Subject: Re: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)

> >I'm working on something, but until I can test it out, I'd rather not
> >post it. I will say that everything is based on a 10sided die,
> >though. (too many dice the SR method)
> >
> >Any comments, flames, questions? Just E-mail me.
> >
> I'd say leave the 6 siders in...
>
> Keep the system similar as possible to the SR RPG... If it's too much
> different, that becomes a turn off to hard core SR players... Who wants to
> learn a totally diffrent system for the same world... But you can simplify
> some of the numbers and tone the amount of dice down...

The game would still be compatable, but I'm also thinking of
something that would work on a larger scale than a team of runners.
The basis of the 10's is ease of use and not having to roll 25 or
more dice to work out shooting for 5 lone star cops. The odds are
working out to be more or less the same and a character from SR would
be 100% compatable with this system. That was my primary goal, after
all. <G>


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 8
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: DMZ II? (was: Long-winded explanation of DMZ)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:21:33 -0005
On 21 Jan 97 at 2:20, Bull wrote:

> At 12:31 AM 1/21/97 +0000, you wrote:
> I'd say leave the 6 siders in...
Definitely... I do not want to have to buy more dice unless the entire game is
switching to a new dice system!

>
> West End Games did something similar for Star Wars. They have a Miniatures
> Battle Game that is, IMO, very well done... I still prefer Warhammer, but
> they did a good job of making teh Mini's game compatible with the RPG... In
> fact it's a piece of cake translating PC's into characters...
I think it's kind of strange that FASA has Battletech, which has pretty good
miniatures rules, but they didn't use that in SR. For me, miniatures solve a
lot of arguement. It is so much easier just to get down to map level and
eyeball LOS yourself. If you can see only half your target, that's 50% cover,
simple neh? Vehicle combat gets easier too... just move each vehicle it's
movement rate and conduct ranged combat normally.

>
> I'm not familiar with DMZ (I just heard it wasn't very good, repeatedly), so I
> can't really off suggestions on how to clean the old system up, but if you can
> keep it simple and streamlined, and come uup with a way to easily translate
> characters for the game, and make it run like a quicker bersion of the RPG, I
That was one problem I had with DMZ... it came up with lots of new rules I had
to translate the character into. I think the game would have been better off
sticking to the regular rules... just added in things about using scale, cover,
using templates for area of effect... that kind of thing. Plus how to handle
vehicle combat with miniatures. Then filled the rest of the product with maps
and cardboard stand-up scenery.

> think you'ld have a good game on your hands... And it would make those mass
> combats MUCH easier to deal with...
Ditto for what I was thinking. The one problem we had was scale for using
character miniatures and scale for car chases. When it was our character's on
foot, 25mm... 1 inch = 1m or 3m was fine. But cars go much faster and you'd
need a really big table at that scale. So what we did was got to Car Wars
scale... little cars only an inch long (and incidentally we used old Car Wars
maps and stuff too). I don't know if that would work in a product... using two
different scales... one for character combat and one for vehicle combat... but
it was what worked for us.
--

Ashelock
mailto woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

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