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Message no. 1
From: stevet78@*****.com (Steve Thompson)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 19:26:05 -0700 (PDT)
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If a caster with a magic rating of 7 were to cast an area of effect spell against some
people 4 meters away... would the caster get hit with it?

Chaotic World? Mass Blindness? Foreboding? Manaball?

How about the arguement that the caster can't 'see' himself and therefore isn't a target?


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Message no. 2
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 21:28:33 -0500
At 09:26 PM 4/4/2004, Steve Thompson wrote:
>If a caster with a magic rating of 7 were to cast an area of effect spell
>against some people 4 meters away... would the caster get hit with it?
>
>Chaotic World? Mass Blindness? Foreboding? Manaball?
>
>How about the arguement that the caster can't 'see' himself and therefore
>isn't a target?

Not unless the want to. With the exception of area elemental manipulations,
the magician can selectively target people within the area. You don't
synchronize your aura and channel energy into anybody you don't want to.

Area elemental manipulations can't be selective because they create a
physical force in a particular pattern.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 3
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 21:33:48 -0500
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On Apr 4, 2004, at 9:26 PM, Steve Thompson wrote:

> If a caster with a magic rating of 7 were to cast an area of effect
> spell against some people 4 meters away... would the caster get hit
> with it?
>  
> Chaotic World?  Mass Blindness?  Foreboding?  Manaball?
>  
> How about the arguement that the caster can't 'see' himself and
> therefore isn't a target?
>
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> Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today

or.....you could just have the caster center the spell about 4 meters
beyond the intended targets, therefore making the radius of the force 7
spell fall a meter short of himself....or...(unless I don't remember
the magic rules well enough) he could just cast the spell with a
smaller force rating and make the radius smaller that way........

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Message no. 4
From: chris@*******.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:43:56 +1000
Records show that at 12:28 PM on Monday 5/04/2004 AEDT, Timothy J. Lanza
advised:
>At 09:26 PM 4/4/2004, Steve Thompson wrote:
>>If a caster with a magic rating of 7 were to cast an area of effect spell
>>against some people 4 meters away... would the caster get hit with it?
>>
>>Chaotic World? Mass Blindness? Foreboding? Manaball?
>>
>>How about the arguement that the caster can't 'see' himself and therefore
>>isn't a target?
>
>Not unless the want to. With the exception of area elemental manipulations,
>the magician can selectively target people within the area. You don't
>synchronize your aura and channel energy into anybody you don't want to.

Actually, this isn't true by the rule books. The base rule is: "Area spells
affect all valid targets within the radius of effect, friend or foe alike
(including the caster)" (p181 SR3). This is why there is the rule for
reducing an area of affect, which would not be necessary if the magician
could select targets. Further there's the clincher: "Magicians also may not
selectively ignore valid targets within the area of effect, including
themselves" (p51 MITS).

Chris
Message no. 5
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 23:12:58 -0500
At 10:43 PM 4/4/2004, Chris Maxfield wrote:
>Actually, this isn't true by the rule books. The base rule is: "Area
>spells affect all valid targets within the radius of effect, friend or foe
>alike (including the caster)" (p181 SR3). This is why there is the rule
>for reducing an area of affect, which would not be necessary if the
>magician could select targets. Further there's the clincher: "Magicians
>also may not selectively ignore valid targets within the area of effect,
>including themselves" (p51 MITS).

Hrmm... Maybe I'm thinking old editions...

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 6
From: chris@*******.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 16:33:42 +1000
Records show that at 02:12 PM on Monday 5/04/2004 AEDT, Timothy J. Lanza
advised:
>Hrmm... Maybe I'm thinking old editions...

SR2 is the same as SR3 for this, but SR1 perhaps? I didn't start playing a
magician or GMing SR until SR2, and so I was never familiar with SR1
spellcasting rules.

Chris
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:01:41 +0200
According to Timothy J. Lanza, on Monday 05 April 2004 04:28 the word on
the street was...

> Not unless the want to. With the exception of area elemental
> manipulations, the magician can selectively target people within the
> area. You don't synchronize your aura and channel energy into anybody
> you don't want to.

Huh? To the best of my knowledge, _any_ valid target within the area of
effect is subjected to the spell's effects, regardless of whether the
caster wants them to be affected or not. Otherwise, it'd be far too easy
to cast Manaball into a crowd and only take out the one bad guy with the
gun...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:08:04 +0200
According to Chris Maxfield, on Monday 05 April 2004 08:33 the word on the
street was...

> >Hrmm... Maybe I'm thinking old editions...
>
> SR2 is the same as SR3 for this, but SR1 perhaps? I didn't start playing
> a magician or GMing SR until SR2, and so I was never familiar with SR1
> spellcasting rules.

I don't think so, as ISTR the SR1 rules were much the same as the later
editions when it came to area spells. On a quick check, it doesn't mention
whether you can selectively target people in the area of effect, but has
the same basic rule for in- or decreasing that area's size.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 06:57:05 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com [mailto:shadowrn-
> bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Timothy J. Lanza
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 12:13 AM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: Do Casters hit themselves?
>
> At 10:43 PM 4/4/2004, Chris Maxfield wrote:
> >Actually, this isn't true by the rule books. The base rule is: "Area
> >spells affect all valid targets within the radius of effect, friend or
> foe
> >alike (including the caster)" (p181 SR3). This is why there is the rule
> >for reducing an area of affect, which would not be necessary if the
> >magician could select targets. Further there's the clincher: "Magicians
> >also may not selectively ignore valid targets within the area of effect,
> >including themselves" (p51 MITS).
>
> Hrmm... Maybe I'm thinking old editions...
>

Unless it was 1 ed (which I didn't play much of), this has always been the
case. The so-called "pinhole rule" has been in the fluff for a while.
Message no. 10
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 20:38:37 +0200
From: "Chris Maxfield" <chris@*******.com>
> Records show that at 02:12 PM on Monday 5/04/2004 AEDT, Timothy J. Lanza
> advised:
> >Hrmm... Maybe I'm thinking old editions...
>
> SR2 is the same as SR3 for this, but SR1 perhaps? I didn't start playing a
> magician or GMing SR until SR2, and so I was never familiar with SR1
> spellcasting rules.

It's alway been the same, SR1, SR2 and SR3.

Lars
Message no. 11
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 13:38:04 -0700 (PDT)
> I don't think so, as ISTR the SR1 rules were much the same as the
> later
> editions when it came to area spells. On a quick check, it doesn't
> mention
> whether you can selectively target people in the area of effect,
> but has
> the same basic rule for in- or decreasing that area's size.

Unless the caster is visible to himself in a mirror, I'd say he can't
see himself, invalidating himself as a target. Area effect combat
spells can only effect targets visible to the caster. This has been
pretty constant through all editions of SR.

======Korishinzo
--good argument for letting a combat mage take point, no?

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Message no. 12
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:42:56 -0400
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: korishinzo@*****.com [mailto:korishinzo@*****.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 4:38 PM
> To: shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com
> Subject: Re: Do Casters hit themselves?
>
> Unless the caster is visible to himself in a mirror, I'd say he can't
> see himself, invalidating himself as a target. Area effect combat
> spells can only effect targets visible to the caster. This has been
> pretty constant through all editions of SR.

True, although it is of note that I do allow casters to hit "out of
sight" targets with area-of-effect combat spells so long as their target
numbers are subject to the +8 blindfire visibility modifier. Heh.

Marc

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Message no. 13
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:08:58 +0200
Le 05 avr. 2004, à 22:38, Ice Heart a écrit :

> Unless the caster is visible to himself in a mirror, I'd say he can't
> see himself, invalidating himself as a target. Area effect combat
> spells can only effect targets visible to the caster. This has been
> pretty constant through all editions of SR.

Well, one could argue that a mage is always considered touching
himself, and that IIRC LoS spells can be cast without LoS if the mage
is touching his target. Thus, the mage is affected too.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 14
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves?
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 00:03:03 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: "Max Noel" <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr>
Le 05 avr. 2004, à 22:38, Ice Heart a écrit :
> Unless the caster is visible to himself in a mirror, I'd say he can't
> see himself, invalidating himself as a target. Area effect combat
> spells can only effect targets visible to the caster. This has been
> pretty constant through all editions of SR.

Well, one could argue that a mage is always considered touching
himself, and that IIRC LoS spells can be cast without LoS if the mage
is touching his target. Thus, the mage is affected too.

Even relying on vision alone I find I would have to deliberately look up
about 30 degrees to avoid having at least one sholuder of me in my
peripheral vision... and unless I close one eye ane really concentrate
on looking up and to one side my nose is always in my peripheral
vision...

Essentially, I cannot avoid directly knowing about my own presence in
the area of effect with any of my direct senses, thus I am a target.

Matt


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Message no. 15
From: danturek@*******.com (D. T)
Subject: Do Casters hit themselves
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 01:31:04 -0400
Korishinzo said:

>Unless the caster is visible to himself in a mirror, I'd say he can't
see himself, invalidating himself as a target. Area effect combat
spells can only effect targets visible to the caster. This has been
pretty constant through all editions of SR.

I find it nearly impossible to not see some part of myself in periphereal
vision, even if not consciously. Even if I close my eyes - if I face a
bright light (like the sun) I can see my eye lid. My eyelashes are blurry
and indistinct, but I do see them (mine are rather long). Going with the
clothing-sort-of-attaches to the aura idea, if I put blinders on I see the
clothing I am wearing and thus see me.

If I was looking through a peephole smaller than my eye and it forced me to
keep my eye opened really wide I still might see a tiny bit of my nose.

And that is with my hair cut short and under a hat.

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