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Message no. 1
From: Vincent Pellerin <Vincent.Pellerin@***.GMC.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: DODGE
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 15:49:21 -0500
After witnessing the discussion on the rate of fire of weapon and
the way to resolve the hits and damage,i assumed that if you took so much
time on this rule, you probably had a discussion before on an other one,
(That seems worse to me) the dodge.

If anybody would tell me what where your conclusions on this ( if
you ever had a discussion on the subject that is) i would appresiate.

We took some time in my game to evaluate the present rule and got to this
conclusion : IT STINK !!

When you are dodging, you are not actually evading the bullet, but
getting yourself harder to hit, by changing positions, using cover, dashing
in erratic manner and getting away of the relative line of fire between you
and the attacker. The speed of the bullet is irrelevant, the type of ammo
and weapon are not logically suppose to affect the dodge of someone.

The present rule (for simplicity sake i believe) use the same target
number to dodge and to resist the shot. Can somebody tell me why you need
armor to dodge a shot ? And worst yet, why an APDS bullet is harder to
dodge than a regular one ? There is no logical reason for this...

So here is the rule we are using in my group...

All combat pool dice allocated to dodging have base target number of 4.

You add +1 for each 3 bullet fire in the burst.
You add +1 for each -1 given by the choke of a shotgun to the firer.

You cannot use combat pool to dodge an attack you are not aware is coming.

The choice of 4 was made by comparing the basic armor and weapons, it seemed
a good choice.

You can roll the pool and body dices at once, you still keep the rest of the
rules from this point, you just have different TN for the pool dices and the
body. The TN for the body is the same as it always was.

The good point of this rules where numerous..

1-It permit the critters that dont have armor to dodge some bullet.
2-The runners can go out with minimal (or no) armor and not appear as
suicidals maniacs.
3-The players are less inclined to carry large armor in social circumstances
and to layer armor.
4-It reduce the devasting effect of APDS and other ammo.
5-You can dodge ANY firearms with the same ease (wich is logical).
6-It slow down the weapon/armor escalation we are witnessing in SR for some
time (layering armor, APDS, high explosive ammo....ad vitam noseam).
7-It give the light pistol a chance to kill again.

The bad points..

Keeping tracks of two targets number for the resistance test.
Beside that none i can see.

If you wonder, yes, it give a feeling of first edition on our table
: you roll the pool first(threat rating for the npc), if it is not enough
you roll the body. But noting stop you from trowing all the dices at once,
as long as you remember there is two different TN, for the two different
source of dices.

Comments anyones.
Message no. 2
From: Autonomous Zone <thak@******.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 18:52:24 CST
We changed the dodge rules in our game to a similar method, except that
instead of the combat pool being rolled against a target of 4, the target is
the Firearms skill of the shooter. The reeasoning being its harder to dodge
a crack shot than some chump who barely knows which end to point.

Sprite

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Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: DODGE
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 10:58:54 +0200
>We took some time in my game to evaluate the present rule and got to this
>conclusion : IT STINK !!

Welcome to the club :)

>So here is the rule we are using in my group...

[rule deleted]

If you feel like altering the dodge rules, the best suggestion I can come up
with is you take your SR1 rulebook to hand, and read page 51:

"DODGE POOL
The Dodge Pool is equal to the character's Quickness Attribute Rating. It
can be used to limit the damage done by firearms or projectile and throwing
weapons."

and page 67:

"REDUCING DAMAGE
[bits about Body test deleted] In addition, the target may use dice from
his Dodge Pool.
The Target Number for this Resistance Test is the Power Level of the
weapon. [snip]
The target's successes reduce the Wound Category step-by-step [snip]. If
the dice from teh Dodge Pool (and only these, so use a different color die
or something) push the total of successes on the Resistance Test higher than
the attacker's original number, it's a clean miss."

Like you suggested, I think it's best to give the Dodge dice a T# of 4 or so.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 4
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: DODGE
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 15:53:53 +0200
> We took some time in my game to evaluate the present rule and got to this
> conclusion : IT STINK !!
>
> Comments anyones.

Well basically you are right :) The thing is that one of the great
strengths of SR (at least IMHO) is that its realistic enough without forcing
you to check a zillion tables (read its not too realistic). I can live with
the aforementioned rule - even though I see your point and quite frankly
agree with you :)

--
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Message no. 5
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 20:05:13 -0400
On Sat, 1 Apr 1995, Autonomous Zone wrote:

> We changed the dodge rules in our game to a similar method, except that
> instead of the combat pool being rolled against a target of 4, the target is
> the Firearms skill of the shooter. The reeasoning being its harder to dodge
> a crack shot than some chump who barely knows which end to point.

I used to run it this way, but it became clearly obvious that
things were getting out of hand. As it is, the shooter with the high
skill has more dice to roll and can throw in more combat pool. Don't
penalize the target twice when it's not necessary.
Now I use a simple rule of dodging, base target # of 4. More
dodge successes than firing successes means a clean miss. If the firer
still has more successes, he or she hits, but the dodge successes count
in damage reduction. The rule works really well and lends itself to some
much easier interpretations of other situations (like changing the
autofire rules).

Marc
Message no. 6
From: Vincent Pellerin <Vincent.Pellerin@***.GMC.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:18:16 -0400
AUTONOMOUS ZONE responded to my dodge rules with

>We changed the dodge rules in our game to a similar method, except that
>instead of the combat pool being rolled against a target of 4, the target is
>the Firearms skill of the shooter. The reeasoning being its harder to dodge
>a crack shot than some chump who barely knows which end to point.
>
>"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!"
>
WELL I AM OUTRAGED!!!

No, just joking, seriously we considered using the skill of the shooter as
target number but i was the strongest advocate (thats the way to write it,
right?) against it.

the reason are numerous

1->The reeasoning being its harder to dodge a crack shot than some chump who
barely knows which end to point.> Wrong (at least in the way i see it),
there is no reason why the shots of a skilled shooter is more dificult to
dodge than the one of an other. But, that is more obvious if you consider a
shot from someone with a firearms skill of 2 VS 9. There could be some
difference, the more experience firer would anticipate the way a target
dodge and other things like that. But a difference of 7!! that can't be
logical. Anyways the succes given to the shooter by is skills are already
getting the shot harder to dodge, the skill would be doing the same thing
twice in different ways.

2-The skill of the firer already help him have more succes in the test,
using the skill as a TN would be too unfair to the "small skill shooters"

3-It give away too much information to the players, "He! I need nines, that
guy must be the major villain!"

4-In my opinion, if the "dodger" as the TN=skill of the firer, the firer
would have the TN=something of the dodger (quickness maybee) and this would
turn in an opposed test (Am I blabering here ?).

I hope you see my point, repent and go out of this erronous way. :-)

Just jocking, i hope i was clear in my arguments, hope you likes
them, hope to have peace on earth, a job, money, etc...




_________________________________________________________________________
| _____ "You are yong only once....... |
| \ \ / ......... but you can be immature all yourlife !" |
| \ __/ / -heard somewhere, i don'tremember |
| \ / |
| \_/ Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca |
|________________________________________________________________________|
Message no. 7
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: DODGE
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:53:29 +1000
Vincent Pellerin writes:

> We took some time in my game to evaluate the present rule and got to this
> conclusion : IT STINK !!

Hey! Welcome to the club. Yes, we have discussed this rule quite a few many
times before, but unlike the autofire rules, we have yet to come up with a
decent alternative.

> So here is the rule we are using in my group...
> All combat pool dice allocated to dodging have base target number of 4.
> You add +1 for each 3 bullet fire in the burst.
> You add +1 for each -1 given by the choke of a shotgun to the firer.
>
> You cannot use combat pool to dodge an attack you are not aware is coming.
>
> The choice of 4 was made by comparing the basic armor and weapons, it seemed
> a good choice.

This seems quite good to me. I've been using a base TN of 5 for all dodges
(I used to use 5,6,8 for SS, BF, FA, but I decided that sucked), and haven't
been enirely satisified with it, but I have yet to come across something
better. The modifiers for the bursts and shot rounds sound pretty good,
although if you combine this with the new autofire rules, you can completely
splatter someone using autofire. But they do make sense (it's more difficult
to dodge more rounds).

-----------------------
Autonomous Zone writes:

> We changed the dodge rules in our game to a similar method, except that
> instead of the combat pool being rolled against a target of 4, the target is
> the Firearms skill of the shooter. The reeasoning being its harder to dodge
> a crack shot than some chump who barely knows which end to point.

I don't like this, as it penalises poor Firerams skill people doubly, while
rewarding those with good firearms twice. If I have a poor skill, then this
is represented by the fact that I will get less successes in my skill test,
and it will therefore be easier for my opponent to dodge because of this.
If, OTOH, I am a crack shot, then I will score many more successes, and it
will be more dificult for my opponent to dodge. The skill of the firer has
no direct effect on the diffculty of dodging a shot fired by that person, it
only has an indirect efefct since it usually determines the number of
sucesses scored. Say, for the sake of the argument, that I suck with guns.
Like skill 2. Say, I throw in all my Combat Pool, and get real lucky, and
score 6 successes. Why should my shot be any easier to dodge than the crack
shot next to me who scores six successes every shot? Likewise when he stuffs
up, and scores 1 successes (which is what I'd normally get), why should his
single success shot be more difficult to dodge than mine? The difficulty of
dodging an attack should be based solely on the degree of accuracy of the
shot, ie the successes scored on the firers Firearms test. It has no reason
to be affected by the skill or the firer, or armour, or any other things.

Since SR uses an abstracted autofire system, with multiple rounds in a
single damage code, then it make sense to have this single multi-round
damage code more difficult to dodge, however.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:23:36 -0700
I like the variant Dodge rules that DLOH came up with in
_Vampire_ (no, I don't like the rules system there either don't shudder ;-)
Basically, the Dodge target number depended upon how close to
cover one was. Something like 8 if you were in the open, but only 4 if
you were within easy reach of full cover. Of course this system was
based upon (non-open ended) d10's, so perhaps 6 if no cover and 2 if
right next to it. The delineation went something like:

Open/No cover
Partial cover within 2 meters
Partial cover within 1 meter/ full cover within 2 meters
Full cover within 1 meter
Already in full cover

The distance rationale was something like whether one could
simply duck back quickly or have to dive/roll/run to get there.
I would assign number like 6-5-4-3-2 for the above catagories.
Wait, doesn't that penalize the shooter twice? Once for cover
modifiers to hit and again for dodging?
My rationale is, yes, it *is* harder to hit someone only
partially exposed. Howsomever, if one believes the concept of Combat
Pool/Dodge Pool, it is certainly easier to duck something when one has
something to duck behind. And in FOF, one is slightly penalized for
using cover when returning fire anyways (1/2 of the cover modifier) I
would disagree in the case of bore-sighting, but I digress.
The above system seems to work for me. It makes gunfights what
they should be -- death to people in exposed positions, with lots of
firing from behind obstacles and a sort of sprint-and-wait tempo.
Your mileage may vary.


========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/getchell.html
Message no. 9
From: Vincent Pellerin <Vincent.Pellerin@***.GMC.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:59:18 -0400
Adam Getchell wrote
>
I like the variant Dodge rules that DLOH came up with in
>_Vampire_ (no, I don't like the rules system there either don't shudder ;-)
> ( cute dodge rule snipped)


This rule is very logical for the shooter-target interaction and i would
gladly use it if it would'nt be for a small point. It assume the target is
has the capacity to move back and forward toward is cover and destination
(if he is not already in the cover actually). This can go into a lot of
timing and interaction problem during the round. I'll explain myself 2
meters is'nt a lot for some character but a lot for some others, when you
just moved your "big 9 meters" and are at 2 m of the cover the rule would
let me think he suddendly can make 2 m more. Fighting inside is bringning
problem to, when a grenade goes of in a room, you where out of the room but
used the door frame as the "within 2m of cover", are you in or out? I
realise that for some system this could be a great rule (i will cannibalise
it myself ), but for Shadowrun, i prefer my rule for now.

Thanks for posting it, this rule is pretty well thought.

_________________________________________________________________________
| _____ "You are yong only once....... |
| \ \ / ......... but you can be immature all yourlife !" |
| \ __/ / -heard somewhere, i don'tremember |
| \ / |
| \_/ Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca |
|________________________________________________________________________|
Message no. 10
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:36:36 -0700
>(side note: ever notice how it's so much harder to get a clean miss
>when the power level of the round is high? Bigger rounds must be
>harder to dodge.)

Not in SR3. Your Dodge target number is 4, +1 per 3 rounds, +1 per shotgun
spread, + Wound modifiers.

This is a fix I was very happy to see. I had played around with a house
rule something like this, but this is very elegant.

> -- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 11
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:41:33 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:36 AM 8/20/98 -0700, Adam wrote:
>>(side note: ever notice how it's so much harder to get a clean miss
>>when the power level of the round is high? Bigger rounds must be
>>harder to dodge.)
>
>Not in SR3. Your Dodge target number is 4, +1 per 3 rounds, +1 per
shotgun
>spread, + Wound modifiers.
>
>This is a fix I was very happy to see. I had played around with a
house
>rule something like this, but this is very elegant.

OOOOOOHHHHH! That's wonderful. Now if my SR3 would just arrive here.
That'll go right into my range-linked launcher house rules then, to
bring it in line with SR3 rules.

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 12
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:16:43 -0500
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:36:36 -0700 Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
writes:
>>(side note: ever notice how it's so much harder to get a clean miss
>>when the power level of the round is high? Bigger rounds must be
>>harder to dodge.)

>Not in SR3. Your Dodge target number is 4, +1 per 3 rounds, +1 per
shotgun
>spread, + Wound modifiers.
>
>This is a fix I was very happy to see. I had played around with a house
>rule something like this, but this is very elegant.
>
>> -- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
>
>--Adam
<SNIP Sig>

I Like this! I was thinking of making the T# equal to the firer's skill
but this is niiice :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 13
From: Justin Elliott <justin.elliott@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Dodge
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:00:30 +1300
With the way the dodge rules are writen in SR3, in the majority of
situations most characters will use there combat pool in the dodge roll and
not for damage resistance (especialy against the heavier weapons). The
Target No. is 4 and not the power of the weapon, for the dodge it's a one
to one suscess and even if you miss the dodge you get to add any dodge
successes to your sucesses gained from the damage resistance roll.

For example: If your facing a 12S wound level and you are wearing 4 points
of armour, would you rather throw your dice at a target number of 8 or
dodge at a target no of 4.

To me this makes dodge too powerfull as it stands.( I have problems with
people dodging bullets anyway). Now I know that it is there to make combat
less daedly, game balance etc but I think there should be some downside to
dodging eg. someone who dodges should lose there next action (to represent
the diving out of the way and recovering from the rapid movemment involved)
and have some minuses in any knockdown test that result from being hit
while dodging (it is harder to maintain balance if you are diving madly to
get out of the way).

Anyway in a long winded way what I want to know is how you lot out there
handling the new dodge rule in your campaigns.

Justin.
Message no. 14
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:32:58 -0600
At 09:00 AM 11/24/98 +1300, you wrote:
>Anyway in a long winded way what I want to know is how you lot out there
>handling the new dodge rule in your campaigns.

I am just wondering if I read the rules correctly.

Does the dice the player rolls for dodge subtract from their dice pool? So
if they have 9 dice and use 5 to dodge they only have 4 left to dodge or
resist any damage for the rest of that turn? I kind of like it if it is
this way because I always hated high stat runners dodging almost everything
thrown at them in one turn.

Ed



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Message no. 15
From: Justin Elliott <justin.elliott@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:50:27 +1300
>
>I am just wondering if I read the rules correctly.
>
>Does the dice the player rolls for dodge subtract from their dice pool? So
>if they have 9 dice and use 5 to dodge they only have 4 left to dodge or
>resist any damage for the rest of that turn? I kind of like it if it is
>this way because I always hated high stat runners dodging almost everything
>thrown at them in one turn.
>

Yep.

That's the way I remember reading the rules anyway. I still think they need
a little tweaking t though.

Justin.
Message no. 16
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 02:14:20 +0000
> I am just wondering if I read the rules correctly.
>
> Does the dice the player rolls for dodge subtract from their dice pool? So
> if they have 9 dice and use 5 to dodge they only have 4 left to dodge or
> resist any damage for the rest of that turn?

That is correct. Any dice spent from any pool is gone from that pool
until it refreshes.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 17
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:19:44 EST
In a message dated 11/23/98 11:58:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
justin.elliott@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ writes:
<snip snip>
> Anyway in a long winded way what I want to know is how you lot out there
> handling the new dodge rule in your campaigns.
Actually, given what makes up the Combat pool (no Body for example) I see no
reason why they could resist other than dodging (an incomplete dodge simply
means yoiu managed to get yourself hit more peripherally) given that Combat
pool only refreshes each turn instead of each phase, it really only matters if
you are only going against 1 shot that whole round. (and go on complete
defense) IMO, it is alright. (though maybe not all right :-)
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dodge
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:12:05 +0100
According to Ed, at 14:32 on 23 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> Does the dice the player rolls for dodge subtract from their dice pool? So
> if they have 9 dice and use 5 to dodge they only have 4 left to dodge or
> resist any damage for the rest of that turn? I kind of like it if it is
> this way because I always hated high stat runners dodging almost everything
> thrown at them in one turn.

Yes, dice pools refresh every turn rather than every action now; this
forces high-initiative characters to use less of their dice pools per
action than they could in SRII, because they'll run out just as fast as
slower characters.

--
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Further Reading

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