Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: dodging bullets
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 11:52:22 +0000
> ------------------------------
>
> On Thu, 24 Nov 1994, Jan-bart van Beekwrote about'Rediculous rulings of
Debbie'
>
> I always hated the Dodge pool and i also dispise the idea that one can
> dodge a bullet. It's just plain inpossible to do so.
<CHOP> You CAN do it.
Its actually quite simple. You dodge the GUN not the bullet.
The Bullet is moving at Mach+ or so, but the gun moves with the
users reflexes. Also, remember if you can move in close low and
fast, the gun is a real liability to the user.
<CHOP>
Anyway, SR is cinematic/generic. Dodging just makes it less
likely you'll be hurt bad (SR1 dodge pool)
Watch A John Woo film. Thats how to run SR gunfights.

> And hey, debbie, face it.If one pulls a gun out when he's standing 5 meters
> away (and there's no cover) you'll get hit, no question about it. It's
> just reality. The only thing you can hope for is the bullet didn't
> penetrate any particular lethal bodypart.

<CHOP>Shows your streetfighting knowledge
On a RANGE, with Optimum conditions, TRUE
In realistic conditions, NO way
NYPD figures show that gunfights are usually at less than 5m,
involve blazing away and not hitting much.
The practical combat range of a handgun is about 5m anyway

> So I won't tolerate any of this bullet-dodging-mumbo-jumbo anymore.
<CHOP>And I won't tolerate peaple who think they know everything
mouthing off about something they obviously haven't researched

> --------------------------------------------------------------
> | Beware of what you ask for you may recieve it |
> --------------------------------------------------------------
<CHOP> Engage brain before opening mouth
or in your case
Engage Brain before opening Mail Folder
=)
> **** The Cornflake Killer Strikes again ****
>
> ------------------------------
CHOPPER
He who allows himself to be whipped deserves to be whipped
Leapold Von SacherMasoc, 'Venus in Furs'
Message no. 2
From: Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Dodging Bullets
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:24:23 -0600
Hahahahaha! You've gotta be kidding me! Look up the velocity figures for
most firearm rounds (muzzle velocity will do). Divide the distance at
which most firefights occur (~25 feet max) by those same velocity figures.
Now, even IF the sammy/zombie with a taccomp-4 and wired-3 happens to be
telepathic (in order to tell when the shot is about to be fired), can he
move enough of his body out of the bullet's flight path to reduce the odds
of a hit? He's got less than a hundredth of a second (approx) to BOTH
react to the shot AND move his body mass. Not to be a bastard, but
this just isn't real likely. If you want to have your game be more
bubble gum crash than bladerunner, that's cool, dodge away...
NOTE: this applies to AIMED fire. Bullets just travel too damn fast for
you to move if the person firing is able to target you in the first place.
UNAIMED fire, OTOH, well, that's what the suppressive fire rules in FoF
are for. I agree that it is possible to avoid being shot by random
unaimed fire, albeit more through luck than reflexes...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Michael Orion Jackson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TAMS Class of 1996/UT Class of 199?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~2112 Guadalupe, Rm. 213; Austin, Tx 78705 (The Goodall-Wooten)~~~~~~~
------------------<"Love kills the demon."~Mickey
Knox>--------------------
Message no. 3
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodging Bullets
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:54:07 PST
>From: Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
>Subject: Dodging Bullets

>Hahahahaha! You've gotta be kidding me! Look up the velocity figures
for
>most firearm rounds (muzzle velocity will do). Divide the distance at
>which most firefights occur (~25 feet max) by those same velocity
figures.

<wounded rightousness>
<counting on toes> DUH, gee Mike, can't count that low.

I guess those clean miss rules in the BBB are for some other game.
</wounded rightousness>

Look, they needed someway to simulate that an agile opponent is hard to
hit. Maybe that ain't so with guns, but it is with slower missles.
What's your solution? Cause the one in the book SUX bad enough to make
lots of people cringe and look for something else. Mine is admitedly
cinematic, but results in most people getting hit unless the shot was
difficult or poorly executed. The occasinal caracter with a double
didgit combat pool can dodge one, maybe two shots completely. It's not
really a simulation of physics or reaction, but of expirience in combat-
knowing inherently which way to jink to NOT be an easy target. Having a
big karma pool helps as much as a big combat pool.


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 4
From: "Richard L. Zagorski" <CaptainZig@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodging Bullets
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:15:35 -0500
Michael Orion Jackson Scribes:

>
> >Hahahahaha! You've gotta be kidding me! Look up the velocity figures
> for
> >most firearm rounds (muzzle velocity will do). Divide the distance at
> >which most firefights occur (~25 feet max) by those same velocity
> figures.
>
And Landsquid Scribes:

> Look, they needed someway to simulate that an agile opponent is hard to
> hit. Maybe that ain't so with guns, but it is with slower missles.
> What's your solution? Cause the one in the book SUX bad enough to make
> lots of people cringe and look for something else. Mine is admitedly
> cinematic, but results in most people getting hit unless the shot was
> difficult or poorly executed. The occasinal caracter with a double
> didgit combat pool can dodge one, maybe two shots completely. It's not
> really a simulation of physics or reaction, but of expirience in combat-
> knowing inherently which way to jink to NOT be an easy target. Having a
> big karma pool helps as much as a big combat pool.

Really, I think it is a matter of personal tastes in how you run your
campaign...namely how much reality you want.

IMC I like the PCs to be able to survive a drek storm, so I go with the more
"cinematic" style of running combat. My PCs get hit and take damage, but they
manage to survive even as the lead is flying all over...well usually.

My rationale is that in combat people normally just site and shoot; careful
aiming doesn't really happen in the thick of combat, and auto fire is
generally inaccurate, but it is darn good to keep a person pinned down.

Even with this, my players still have a healthy respect for fire fights b/c
when a PC manages to bring the damage down through dodging I make sure they
realize just *how* close of a call it was-putting holes in their favorite hat
or jacket works well...as does hitting the pocket secretary hanging off their
belt, etc.

Of course, in an ambush where the PCs are surprised I don't allow them to
dodge initially, and the same goes if there is a well hidden shooter/sniper
in a general fire fight....if they aren't aware of the combatant I generally
don't allow any kind of dodge.

-Captain Zig

*****************************************************
Rocky: Me workum heap tech.
-Stated when Rocky figured out how to answer a call on his pocket
secretary....and then dropped it into the lake.
Message no. 5
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodging Bullets
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:55:29 PST
>Really, I think it is a matter of personal tastes in how you run your
>campaign...namely how much reality you want.
>

I'm feeling our "dodge at 4+" system is plenty "realistic". I was
playing a character who got mowed down by 2 3 round bursts from an
assult rifle while in pretty good armor (regualr ammo, mind you).
He hardly stood a chance- he was covering somebody and notice a guy
coming up behind him but just didnt have the pools or the body (9
combat, 6 body, 6 karma, 6 ballistic, still reached 5 over deadly from
just the two shots, and I was rolling really well.)
Sometimes it allows for outragoeus stunts, and sometimes you just
die. Seems pretty realistic to me.
For those who think 6 bullets should kill anybody, i'll add that
gangbangers are regularly admitted to Chicago hospitals with more than 8
bullet wounds, and live. For a while, at least. And they have NO
armor. Sub-machine guns are not that rare in Chicago today, and are one
of the leading causes of Character death in our game set in 2055
Chicago.



Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 6
From: Marcel Emami <rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: Re: Dodging bullets
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:27:40 +0200
Starjammer schrieb:
>
> Agreeing to disagree on music, I would allow Athletic dodging under very
> specific circumstances:
>
> * The character must see the attack coming, and I don't mean catching a
> glimpse out of the corner of his eye at the last moment. That, or have
> some sort of mystical Combat Sense and make a Surprise Test.
>
> * The character must declare the dodge as a Complex Action, and have one
> available before the attack comes. Also, most circumstances would have the
> character winding up prone after the dodge.
>
> * The character must defend against the attack using the rules for Full
> Defense.

I do like this idea, what about tge successes count until the next
initiative pass regardless how many attacker are shooting on him/her
but if next initiave pass, pass her/him (bo action available) he/she is
prone (only combat pool left).
Let the character roll in his actions athletics(dodge)+ combat pool vs. a 5
+ mods (3 round burst just incase,if more attackers shoot with full auto
let her roll aggainst 6, 7 ). For every 4 success he can swap an simple
action, (e.g. he has 7 successes, so he trades four of them for a shoot
with his ares predator and has 3 successes doge for every shoot aggainst
him)
I dont think that _any_ charakter will get 12 successes, so there is no
problem.


Kruss und Guss

Rab

E-mail: Rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de

WWW : http://fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/~rab

GeekCode 3.0:

GM d-(+) s: a- C+(+++) U+ P? L>+ N K? w+$ o-->++ M V? PS+(++) PE-(--)

Y@ PGP@ t-(---) 5++ X@ R+++>$ tv+ b++ DI D++ G+

e+ h r+ y+
Message no. 7
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dodging bullets
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:44:40 -0700
: Actually, I was considering using Athletics like Sorcery and
:Combat Pool (allocated for dodge) like Spell Pool (allocated for Spell
:Defense). The player may increase their Combat Pool using their
athletics
:(which includes not only acrobatics, but body-building as well) for
either
:dodging or damage resistance. Makes the game a little more cinematic,
:because now the "athletes" would be more combat prepared than "former
:corp worker with 1mil Nuyen of cyber and no athletic ability", which
makes
:a kind of sense to me. You can allocate dice to "Dodging" during any
free
:action... etc... just like Spell Defense. Any dice allocated cannot be
:used for other purposes (like running or jumping) until the next Combat
:Turn. Anybody thing this makes sense but me?
:


If I'm understanding you, a physad could thence have 12 athletics dice
(plus maybe 2 for p4mo, and synthacardium would cut his magic, but add
another net 2 cheaply), and put them all towards dodging each action using
only free action, still being able to do other stuff? What would be the
point of the "combat awareness power", or any other way of gaining combat
pool? (or for that matter, of playing a combat character who was NOT a
physad?)
Using athletics for running and jumping is not common enough to make
thier (temporary) reduction much of a penalty; under those rules, defense
would become athletics main use, and I can say from experince, extra dodge
dice are a VERY nice thing, if availible every action.
This would maybe work if such use were a complex action; you could run
out of dice if shot at a whole bunch of times, and would be sacrificing
all your offense. Our use was similar to that, and did not get used very
often. Allowing it as a free action would change the whole nature of the
skill, and the balance of the combat system, quite radically!

Mongoose
Message no. 8
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dodging bullets
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:04:46 -0400
On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Mongoose wrote:

->: Actually, I was considering using Athletics like Sorcery and
->:Combat Pool (allocated for dodge) like Spell Pool (allocated for Spell
->:Defense). The player may increase their Combat Pool using their
->athletics
->:(which includes not only acrobatics, but body-building as well) for
->either
->:dodging or damage resistance. Makes the game a little more cinematic,
->:because now the "athletes" would be more combat prepared than "former
->:corp worker with 1mil Nuyen of cyber and no athletic ability", which
->makes
->:a kind of sense to me. You can allocate dice to "Dodging" during any
->free
->:action... etc... just like Spell Defense. Any dice allocated cannot be
->:used for other purposes (like running or jumping) until the next Combat
->:Turn. Anybody thing this makes sense but me?
->:
->
->
-> If I'm understanding you, a physad could thence have 12 athletics dice
->(plus maybe 2 for p4mo, and synthacardium would cut his magic, but add
->another net 2 cheaply), and put them all towards dodging each action using
->only free action, still being able to do other stuff?

Skill dice applied towards Spell Defense (or, in this case,
dodging) do not refresh every time that player has an action. Or, at
least, that was the way I understood it. Why would anyone grab a point
and a half of Athletics dice, and if they were THAT good of an athelete,
would you be upset if they were able to dodge and maneuver better than the
greatest of all atheletes?

->What would be the point of the "combat awareness power", or any other
->way of gaining combat pool? (or for that matter, of playing a combat
->character who was NOT a physad?)

Combat Awareness also lets you roll combat Pool dice for surprise
tests (it says a percentage in the SR3 book but doesn't clarify on pg.
108, so old rules still apply which means as much as the adept wishes to
spend). Also, you can roll Combat Pool to attack, you can't with the
reccomended amount of Athletics dice.
For playing a character other than a physad: The same reason
there is to play them now: personal preference. There isn't many other
reasons (unless you count datajacks & smartgun links, headware radios,
tactical computers, cyberarms with integrated weapons... etc.) to play one
or the other now.

-> Using athletics for running and jumping is not common enough to make
->thier (temporary) reduction much of a penalty; under those rules, defense
->would become athletics main use, and I can say from experince, extra dodge
->dice are a VERY nice thing, if availible every action.

They're not available every action if allocated to dodging.
They're only available once per turn, same as spell defense.

-> This would maybe work if such use were a complex action; you could run
->out of dice if shot at a whole bunch of times, and would be sacrificing
->all your offense. Our use was similar to that, and did not get used very
->often. Allowing it as a free action would change the whole nature of the
->skill, and the balance of the combat system, quite radically!

Reread my clarification, maybe you'll have less problems with it.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dodging bullets
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:08:56 -0700
:->: Actually, I was considering using Athletics like Sorcery and
:->:Combat Pool (allocated for dodge) like Spell Pool (allocated for Spell
:->:Defense). The player may increase their Combat Pool using their
:->athletics
:->:(which includes not only acrobatics, but body-building as well) for
:->either
:->:dodging or damage resistance. Makes the game a little more cinematic,
:->:because now the "athletes" would be more combat prepared than
"former
:->:corp worker with 1mil Nuyen of cyber and no athletic ability", which
:->makes
:->:a kind of sense to me. You can allocate dice to "Dodging" during any
:->free
:->:action... etc... just like Spell Defense. Any dice allocated cannot
be
:->:used for other purposes (like running or jumping) until the next
Combat
:->:Turn. Anybody thing this makes sense but me?
:->:
:->
:->
:-> If I'm understanding you, a physad could thence have 12 athletics
dice
:->(plus maybe 2 for p4mo, and synthacardium would cut his magic, but add
:->another net 2 cheaply), and put them all towards dodging each action
using
:->only free action, still being able to do other stuff?
:
: Skill dice applied towards Spell Defense (or, in this case,
:dodging) do not refresh every time that player has an action. Or, at
:least, that was the way I understood it. Why would anyone grab a point
:and a half of Athletics dice, and if they were THAT good of an athelete,
:would you be upset if they were able to dodge and maneuver better than
the
:greatest of all atheletes?

That certainly is a point in my contentions; as I understand it, spell
pool dice allocated to defens refresh with the pools (once per turn), but
sorcery skill dice are used on a characters action, and can also be
allocated to spell defense; as a skill use, this menas they do not
"disapear" for the rest of the turn; skill dice can be used each action.
Athletics, used similarly to sorecery, but for for dodging, would be
obviously powerful, in that case.

:
:->What would be the point of the "combat awareness power", or any other
:->way of gaining combat pool? (or for that matter, of playing a combat
:->character who was NOT a physad?)
:
: Combat Awareness also lets you roll combat Pool dice for surprise
:tests (it says a percentage in the SR3 book but doesn't clarify on pg.
:108, so old rules still apply which means as much as the adept wishes to
:spend). Also, you can roll Combat Pool to attack, you can't with the
:reccomended amount of Athletics dice.

The chart on sr3 P. 169 makes it pretty clear that only part of the
combat pool can be used on a reaction test, the fraction depending on the
level of the combat awareness power. Yes, it's an obvious bonus, but for
its cost, not a huge one.
If you have extra pool dice for defense, you can (safely) spend more
normal pool to attack; its just like getting more attack dice, in most
cases. Playing a character with a 12 combat poool, I gnerally kept 8 of
it for defense, using sr3 style dodges. With combat pool now only
refresing once per turn, I might not use ANY combat pool for attacks; such
a charcter tends to be a target. If I had more dodge dice, it would
effectively give me more attack dice; such a use of athletics, to my mind,
thus puts it on par with "combat sense", if there is no real drawback to
using athletics in that way.

: For playing a character other than a physad: The same reason
:there is to play them now: personal preference. There isn't many other
:reasons (unless you count datajacks & smartgun links, headware radios,
:tactical computers, cyberarms with integrated weapons... etc.) to play
one
:or the other now.

My question there was in parethesis because it was rhetorical
hyperbole. Sorry. Forgot the :), and assumed my writing would make it
clear. I certainly would still see the point in other character types who
had combat as thier primary focus. Although you would be hard pressed to
stop a physical mage with good spell defense AND athletics!

<snip>

The rest just boiled down to our different understanding of sorcery use
for spell defense. Athletics, used once per turn, would still be a very
nice boost to defense, and make powers like "combat sense" far less
attractive, but otherwise maybe not be so unbalancing. I'd still suggest
it take a full action, or maybe add to TN's for other tests, as running
does; there would be the presumption of some vigorous movement, at least.

Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dodging bullets
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:59:45 -0400
On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Mongoose wrote:

<snip earlier pieces>
->: Skill dice applied towards Spell Defense (or, in this case,
->:dodging) do not refresh every time that player has an action. Or, at
->:least, that was the way I understood it. Why would anyone grab a point
->:and a half of Athletics dice, and if they were THAT good of an athelete,
->:would you be upset if they were able to dodge and maneuver better than
->the
->:greatest of all atheletes?
->
-> That certainly is a point in my contentions; as I understand it, spell
->pool dice allocated to defens refresh with the pools (once per turn), but
->sorcery skill dice are used on a characters action, and can also be
->allocated to spell defense; as a skill use, this menas they do not
->"disapear" for the rest of the turn; skill dice can be used each action.
-> Athletics, used similarly to sorecery, but for for dodging, would be
->obviously powerful, in that case.

First time I replied to this I crashed, I'll try again.
From my understanding of Spell Defense, if you have six sorcery
dice (as most mages do) and allocate three of them to spell defense, you
can only roll three dice, plus up to six dice from Spell Pool which don't
refresh until next turn, for any spell you cast until the pools refresh.
Now, if you were a mage and had a specialization in spell defense with two
additional points in it, and you always allocated those two dice to spell
defense (and why wouldn't you?), you'd always have two (making up a
phrase) "magical dodge pool" because of it.
A specialization in Athletics could give you the same bonus (like
being an expert in dodge ball or something). Using normal Athletics dice
would be akin to using just the plain Sorcery dice. If you allocate them,
you cannot use them for other reasons, even if you wanted to. Help
clarify any?

->:->What would be the point of the "combat awareness power", or any other
->:->way of gaining combat pool? (or for that matter, of playing a combat
->:->character who was NOT a physad?)
->:
->: Combat Awareness also lets you roll combat Pool dice for surprise
->:tests (it says a percentage in the SR3 book but doesn't clarify on pg.
->:108, so old rules still apply which means as much as the adept wishes to
->:spend). Also, you can roll Combat Pool to attack, you can't with the
->:reccomended amount of Athletics dice.
->
-> The chart on sr3 P. 169 makes it pretty clear that only part of the
->combat pool can be used on a reaction test, the fraction depending on the
->level of the combat awareness power. Yes, it's an obvious bonus, but for
->its cost, not a huge one.

Ah, didn't notice the table, thanks. Oh cool, the cost dropped
too.....

-> If you have extra pool dice for defense, you can (safely) spend more
->normal pool to attack; its just like getting more attack dice, in most
->cases. Playing a character with a 12 combat poool, I gnerally kept 8 of
->it for defense, using sr3 style dodges. With combat pool now only
->refresing once per turn, I might not use ANY combat pool for attacks; such
->a charcter tends to be a target. If I had more dodge dice, it would
->effectively give me more attack dice; such a use of athletics, to my mind,
->thus puts it on par with "combat sense", if there is no real drawback to
->using athletics in that way.

Hmmmm..... ok. How about any attacks in a round following the use
of Athletics dice (to dodge or other skill uses) you have a penalty to
your attack rolls equal to the number of Athletics dice (but not Combat
Pool dice) you used to dodge (whatever) with? This does make more sense,
I think.

->: For playing a character other than a physad: The same reason
->:there is to play them now: personal preference. There isn't many other
->:reasons (unless you count datajacks & smartgun links, headware radios,
->:tactical computers, cyberarms with integrated weapons... etc.) to play
->one
->:or the other now.
->
-> My question there was in parethesis because it was rhetorical
->hyperbole. Sorry. Forgot the :), and assumed my writing would make it
->clear. I certainly would still see the point in other character types who
->had combat as thier primary focus. Although you would be hard pressed to
->stop a physical mage with good spell defense AND athletics!

Frankly, I think you'd be hardpressed to stop a physical mage
period. ]:-)

->The rest just boiled down to our different understanding of sorcery use
->for spell defense. Athletics, used once per turn, would still be a very
->nice boost to defense, and make powers like "combat sense" far less
->attractive, but otherwise maybe not be so unbalancing. I'd still suggest
->it take a full action, or maybe add to TN's for other tests, as running
->does; there would be the presumption of some vigorous movement, at least.

I did add later about increasing penalties. How about giving it a
look-over now?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 11
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dodging bullets
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:50:16 -0700
: First time I replied to this I crashed, I'll try again.
: From my understanding of Spell Defense, if you have six sorcery
:dice (as most mages do) and allocate three of them to spell defense, you
:can only roll three dice, plus up to six dice from Spell Pool which don't
:refresh until next turn, for any spell you cast until the pools refresh.

Thats not how I understand, or playtested, it. If you put 3 sorcery
dice (and no pool) towards defense, you can cast a spell with the
ramaining 3, and up to 3 pool (pool on spellcasting limited to sorcery
dice). Lets say you do so.
Your next action that turn, you wopuld have 3 pool dice left, but
could use your 6 sorcery again, even if you had indded used the alocated
sorcery dice for defense. There is no "sorcery pool", and no need to
track sorcery dice past action to action use.
I wish sombody would back one or the other of us up here, but the
procedure I have attempted to explain above seems to have been supported
by pervious posts from others on this list.

:Now, if you were a mage and had a specialization in spell defense with
two
:additional points in it, and you always allocated those two dice to spell
:defense (and why wouldn't you?), you'd always have two (making up a
:phrase) "magical dodge pool" because of it.

Correct, except that you would have those dice availible evry action,
presuming you spent the free action to allocate them.
Look at it this way; if you can use sorcery for spellcasting on evry
action, but it is gone for the turn once used for defense, then
spellcasting is somehow much easier than defense. Why would that be?

: A specialization in Athletics could give you the same bonus (like
:being an expert in dodge ball or something). Using normal Athletics dice
:would be akin to using just the plain Sorcery dice. If you allocate
them,
:you cannot use them for other reasons, even if you wanted to. Help
:clarify any?

That is perfectly clear. I din't find trouble with your explantion,
just its potential effect on combat and value of the athletics skill /
dice.

:
:-> If you have extra pool dice for defense, you can (safely) spend
more
:->normal pool to attack; its just like getting more attack dice, in most
:->cases. Playing a character with a 12 combat poool, I gnerally kept 8
of
:->it for defense, using sr3 style dodges. With combat pool now only
:->refresing once per turn, I might not use ANY combat pool for attacks;
such
:->a charcter tends to be a target. If I had more dodge dice, it would
:->effectively give me more attack dice; such a use of athletics, to my
mind,
:->thus puts it on par with "combat sense", if there is no real drawback
to
:->using athletics in that way.
:
: Hmmmm..... ok. How about any attacks in a round following the
use
:of Athletics dice (to dodge or other skill uses) you have a penalty to
:your attack rolls equal to the number of Athletics dice (but not Combat
:Pool dice) you used to dodge (whatever) with? This does make more sense,
:I think.

That would almost certainly stifle abusive use of atletics for doging
purpose, but it would allow some boob to stand out in the open, make an
attack, and them be (relatively) safe because of his athletics dice.
Depends if that is a problem to you or not- it could be just what you
think athletics and dodging in general would allow.


: I did add later about increasing penalties. How about giving it
a
:look-over now?

It seems workable. Its still a more serious change to combat balance
than I'd expect athletics to make, but isn't heinous. It could let folks
with really high athletics dice "front load", by using up all their normal
CP in their first attack, and retaining athletics defense. Sure, their
next attack may suck, but will they even need it? Then again, that may
not be an all bad thing for the game's play; I do think, especially for
very fast characters, that the combat pools in SR3 can get burned through
a bit to fast to count for much.

Mongoose
Message no. 12
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodging bullets
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:40:58 -0400
At 03:50 PM 9/26/98 -0700, you wrote:

> Your next action that turn, you wopuld have 3 pool dice left, but
>could use your 6 sorcery again, even if you had indded used the alocated
>sorcery dice for defense. There is no "sorcery pool", and no need to
>track sorcery dice past action to action use.
> I wish sombody would back one or the other of us up here, but the
>procedure I have attempted to explain above seems to have been supported
>by pervious posts from others on this list.

Okay, I'll back your play. That's how I understand it, from the playtest
rules and the published rules (which aren't always the same thing; it took
me about a month to realize that Turn to Goo hadn't been published, though
it had been a playtest spell).

Erik J.

Who can look outside his office window to see an absolutely gorgeous
day...deep blue skies, clear and clean a bit of a breeze...damn shame to be
pent up in an air conditioned office...

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Dodging bullets, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!